At What Point is it Just Bad Coaching

the Defensive gameplan (from Leonard Williams) was to push the pocket into Bridgewater's face and not let him step into throws.

Unfortunately for the Giants, he looked excellent throwing off his back foot while fading backwards, from odd arm angles.

It was a strange plan that seemed to play into Teddy's strengths. Why weren't they up, with their high priced CBs - challenging the WRs at the LOS and making him go downfield?
I've been a big Graham guy, but he's gotta show something other than a soft zone every week.

As a coach based on Sunday , I know that s where some are with Judge.

Also unless I was seeing it incorrectly, Giants played a lot of press man coverage, and kept getting beat on crossing routes.

this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett.

I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable.

from the way they handled preseason to the offensive gameplaning use of SB was poor.

Execution was still lacking and thats the main reason for the teams failures. Guys wiffed blocks, didnt know the snap count, blew coverages, dropped balls, missed tackles, and fumbled.

Now can we coach up the mistakes and gameplan around the weak spots? On a short week? Thats the coaches challenge

How come over the last 5/6 years,that our defense makes every QB we play against look like Elway,Montana,Brady etc ?? Even 3rd tier QB's look like SB winning QB's against us !!

In comment 15365876 BamaBlue said:

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this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett. I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable.

You summed it up as well as anyone could ... but what I don’t understand is why Peppers only played half the defensive snaps. He is arguably the most athletic and versatile guy they have and could have helped fix the woes in the middle of the field.

regarding our defense. The other team has players who get paid, too.

And the other team's QB played out of him mind well. Bridgewater hooked a 96 QBR. That is phenomenal. Completed nearly 80% of his passes and had an 8.44 AY/A. Nobody saw that coming. Not Denver's coaching staff. Not the Bridgewater family. Nobody. Hell, I was happy Denver named him the starter of Lock.

I'm just moving onto WFT for the D and hoping Graham gets it right Thursday.

This franchise was in shambles when Judge got here and that's not his fault. It's going to be at least another year before this roster is properly turned over.... that said, I still expect 8 wins.

but i expect better come thursday, 1 game doesnt define a coaching staff, we saw plenty of good last year from judge and Graham, Garrett different story..

I expect offensively for more read options, getting Barkley in space and targeting Golladay more..

Defensively i expect a more agressive defense with more blitzing and corners playing man to man especially on 3rd down

At What Point is it Just Bad Coaching Ownership?

In comment 15365891 Alamo said:

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How come over the last 5/6 years,that our defense makes every QB we play against look like Elway,Montana,Brady etc ?? Even 3rd tier QB's look like SB winning QB's against us !!

And our offense makes every opposing defense look like the '85 Bears or the '00 Ravens. But I still don't think we're going to suck forever (most teams don't). Hopefully in a few days we'll be 1-1 and then in another 10 days, 2-1.

In comment 15365908 I Love Clams Casino said:

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At What Point is it Just Bad Coaching Ownership?

Weighing on me as well. I am tired of the loyalty Mara has for people who are connected to the organization. DG, Garrett for example. Hell, I am a Scorpio so I know about loyalty but this is frustrating as hell.

Need some of that Steelers mojo of finding coaching gems.

Especially on the defensive side. Realistically, nobody expected to go from where they were 2 years ago to a SB contender. But, looking as bad as they did to open year 2 of this regime simply not acceptable. It's not the loss itself that is infuriating, but how they looked putting up that L. They didnt look any better than the 6 win team from last year or the worse teams the few years prior. That is unacceotable.

I will say this, if we end up with another 5 or 6 or even 7 win team, I want the staff fired and Gettleman fired. The staff because 2 years of the same when you are this bad just not acceptable. And, I don't want to hear about how lo g it takes to turn over the roster.

Gettleman because 4 years of the same shit disgusting. And 4 years was a complete roster turnover. So, this team is 100% him and the coach he hired. Short leashes are required at this point.

All that said, I still believe this team is good enough for 8 or 9 wins with a serious eye on an a legit playoff team for a few years. Not only do I believe it, but that is really the only acceptable outcome. This team has to win more games and look like a legit team at the end of the season. Anything less and it doesn't matter where we pick, because nobody currently in the building should have anything to do with those picks.

Does Judge need to do things differently from what you have seen over 17 games? Or do you think he just doesn't fit for what needs to be done here with this roster, and you want to shed him at the end of the season?

In comment 15365935 Matt M. said:

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Especially on the defensive side. Realistically, nobody expected to go from where they were 2 years ago to a SB contender. But, looking as bad as they did to open year 2 of this regime simply not acceptable. It's not the loss itself that is infuriating, but how they looked putting up that L. They didnt look any better than the 6 win team from last year or the worse teams the few years prior. That is unacceotable. I will say this, if we end up with another 5 or 6 or even 7 win team, I want the staff fired and Gettleman fired. The staff because 2 years of the same when you are this bad just not acceptable. And, I don't want to hear about how lo g it takes to turn over the roster. Gettleman because 4 years of the same shit disgusting. And 4 years was a complete roster turnover. So, this team is 100% him and the coach he hired. Short leashes are required at this point. All that said, I still believe this team is good enough for 8 or 9 wins with a serious eye on an a legit playoff team for a few years. Not only do I believe it, but that is really the only acceptable outcome. This team has to win more games and look like a legit team at the end of the season. Anything less and it doesn't matter where we pick, because nobody currently in the building should have anything to do with those picks.

Solid and fair post.

Let's see where the team is in a few days. Washington games have a way of making this team look better.

Jackson is not a top tier CB.. teams with bad defense don't cut top tier CB for only $12M.. Just because Giants paid him a lot of money doesn't mean he is anywhere close to a top tier CB.. The OL is also horrible.. The QB takes too much time processing the play and fumbles at an unbelievable rate..

Not that this weekends game plan was any good.. but I think talent is a bigger problem than coaching on this team IMO..

hurry up offense @ 13 minute mark of the 4th qtr instead they are running the ball to barkley on first down and huddling up like theyve got a 2 score lead. tick, tick, tick thats the sound of your football season ticking away...

horrible coaching, no sense of urgency or situational awareness.

they did this on two consecutive series in the 4th quarter.

In comment 15365876 BamaBlue said:

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this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett. I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable.

They did not spend 5 month preparing to play Denver. They spent a week preparing for Denver...just like they will prepare for any other team. They had a bad game on the first game of the season. Make adjustments and move on.

idea...I mean Judge seems open-minded about thinking outside the box given his stance on rotating offensive lineman.

What if the Giants rotated play callers?

The Giants have three guys that have called offensive plays at both the NFL and collegiate levels - Garrett/Kitchens/Dooley.

How hard would it be for the Giants to adjust internally every two weeks or four weeks or whatever?

I've played football in my life as an OL - nothing higher than high school - and I could see some internal logistical issues stemming from this idea, but man would it be difficult for opposing defenses to prepare each week!

Just a thought ... maybe it's stupid. But after Sunday's offensive debacle on the heels of last year's 30th ranked offense - it can't be the worst idea in the world.

Maybe they didn't know what he was capable of and couldn't make adjustments. I don't excuse it...but I can buy it.
But the offense was able to move the ball on some plays and then go multiple negative yard plays or no gains. It happened all last year. Something needs to change on offense.

with the exact same results, maybe it isn't just the coaching. The Giants do a poor job of evaluating talent. They need to overhaul the personnel dept, but I doubt that happens, since a Mara runs it.

Four HC’s Same results. It’s the players chosen by management.

In comment 15365970 Adam G in Big D said:

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hurry up offense @ 13 minute mark of the 4th qtr instead they are running the ball to barkley on first down and huddling up like theyve got a 2 score lead. tick, tick, tick thats the sound of your football season ticking away... horrible coaching, no sense of urgency or situational awareness. they did this on two consecutive series in the 4th quarter.

Agree with this 100% and it is not 2nd guessing...was saying at the time...it was addressed in the post game by Judge, he said they had plenty of time, but I hated the pace of play at that point

In comment 15365970 Adam G in Big D said:

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hurry up offense @ 13 minute mark of the 4th qtr instead they are running the ball to barkley on first down and huddling up like theyve got a 2 score lead. tick, tick, tick thats the sound of your football season ticking away... horrible coaching, no sense of urgency or situational awareness. they did this on two consecutive series in the 4th quarter.

Nick gates tried to go into hurry-up.

He snapped the ball early but nobody else moved...

that Belichick might have put one over on the Giants.

And as far as Mara,or Mara's...whoa.

Not "Like Whoa",just whoa

In comment 15365971 AnnapolisMike said:

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In comment 15365876 BamaBlue said: Quote: this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett. I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable. They did not spend 5 month preparing to play Denver. They spent a week preparing for Denver...just like they will prepare for any other team. They had a bad game on the first game of the season. Make adjustments and move on.

The NFL schedule was released on May 12th... so, the Giants ignored that fact until last week... come-on.

it showed...

If you beat the players down with fundamentals all offseason, you should not worry about mistakes and play more aggressive. I would prefer them putting up 28 with 4 turnovers than going 3 and out or being afraid to go deep from inside your 20. Use your players to their strengths, isolate KG where he can get 50/50. Run routes at different levels, not four stick routes. Line SB 5 yards off ball have him the hole or run play action off it. Stunt the defensive line. Giants line has had problems for years picking it up, other teams seem to have issues as well. You coach scared your team will play scared. Don’t want to see another 4th down trying to draw a false start.

But his decision to only use the first half of the last preseason game for his starters seems to be biting him in the butt. This team played Sunday like they were in the preseason knocking off the rust.

average defenses give up around 20 points these days.

if the offense had any energy we'd of probably held them to around 17.

i was at the game, they were chanting lets go broncos before the big melvin run. if the defense went flat after that i don't even blame them.

In comment 15366103 Giants73 said:

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If you beat the players down with fundamentals all offseason, you should not worry about mistakes and play more aggressive. I would prefer them putting up 28 with 4 turnovers than going 3 and out or being afraid to go deep from inside your 20. Use your players to their strengths, isolate KG where he can get 50/50. Run routes at different levels, not four stick routes. Line SB 5 yards off ball have him the hole or run play action off it. Stunt the defensive line. Giants line has had problems for years picking it up, other teams seem to have issues as well. You coach scared your team will play scared. Don’t want to see another 4th down trying to draw a false start.

I was asking you about Judge. You think he is bad and needs to go?

In comment 15366069 ghost718 said:

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that Belichick might have put one over on the Giants. And as far as Mara,or Mara's...whoa. Not "Like Whoa",just whoa

I think it's more likely Jerry Jones pulled one over on the Mara's. Maybe Garrett is a Jones plant!

In comment 15366154 Platos said:

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average defenses give up around 20 points these days. if the offense had any energy we'd of probably held them to around 17. i was at the game, they were chanting lets go broncos before the big melvin run. if the defense went flat after that i don't even blame them.

It wasn't just the points, it was TOP. Denver took the 2nd half KO and held the ball for most of the 3rd quarter. The game was basically over at that point.

In comment 15366161 Section331 said:

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I think it's more likely Jerry Jones pulled one over on the Mara's. Maybe Garrett is a Jones plant!

Garrett at least has some things going for him other than flashy talk

In comment 15366186 ghost718 said:

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In comment 15366161 Section331 said: Quote: I think it's more likely Jerry Jones pulled one over on the Mara's. Maybe Garrett is a Jones plant! Garrett at least has some things going for him other than flashy talk

Great hair!

Have we seen anything that leads you to believe, he can out think another coach. Have we seen any ingenuity in what the team does? For me the answer is no on both. So we do need another coach if the SB is the ultimate goal. He is similar to a Buck Showalter, bring him in to clean out malcontents, then move him on his way. He is not a defensive or offensive guru. I see a lot of posts blaming graham and garret, did Judge ignore their game plan and let them do what they want, in which case he is useless. Did he decide what the game plane should be and coached scared.

"Joe Judge Needs to be Replaced".

Don't you think?

was malpractice. If I did something like that at my job....I'd feel very lucky to continue to be employed. (Granted I'm a lawyer so not knowing a rule is absolutely infuriating to me, I probably care about that play more than the average person. Your job is to know the rules!)

Very conservative, very predictable, all seems geared towards not making turnovers and winning the field position game. I want to see more attacking and forcing the d to react. It seems more like we wait for the to d and react to that.

In comment 15366204 Giants73 said:

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Have we seen anything that leads you to believe, he can out think another coach. Have we seen any ingenuity in what the team does? For me the answer is no on both. So we do need another coach if the SB is the ultimate goal. He is similar to a Buck Showalter, bring him in to clean out malcontents, then move him on his way. He is not a defensive or offensive guru. I see a lot of posts blaming graham and garret, did Judge ignore their game plan and let them do what they want, in which case he is useless. Did he decide what the game plane should be and coached scared.

So after 17 games you know what type of coach Judge is?

and it was to be expected to some extent given how limited the live action was for starters on both sides of the ball. But, I expected a better performance.

Peppers kept getting beaten by TEs in the passing game and also made some mis-reads pre-snap to my eye, so they sat him, most likely.

Offense

- Garrett is a huge problem when it comes to this offense. A guy like Gilbride designed the offense to fit the strengths and weaknesses of the personnel. He also understood down and distance situations and called plays that were appropriate at that time.

Garrett is calling plays on 3rd and short that one would call on second down without any short options to move the sticks. When the offensive line is struggling, he is not calling plays that help (ie more screens or plays that do not take so long to develop).

Defense

I think Graham is a good coach and we have enough play makers. When it comes to defense, so much is about the scheme that day and also communication. We have seen Giants' teams in the past look horrible and out of place until they clean up the communication. The good news is we do not see guys getting pushed back off the line and the CBs are not getting destroyed in man coverage. It is zone confusion that we see happening and that can be corrected.

Head Coach

It is too soon to judge Judge. He has the team focused and "all in" which is a good thing and something we did not have with prior coaches. He is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team even if he is not calling the offensive plays (for example).

Now, his true test will be whether he has the stones to fire Garrett at the end of the season if the offense continues to struggle... or if he determines that we need a new QB, that we should trade Barkley, etc

building on last year. But the fact remains, Offenses are going to probably continue to attack the weak spots on this Defense until they find a consistent solution for it. And that mostly is from not setting that edge on the D-line, and going after the weak slot CB and Peppers in pass coverage.

Maybe time is a solution but then expect more losses in the meanwhile because the Offense isn't going to score more points very often to make up for it...

they have taught these player to not be able to come off blocks, not cover their man and miss tackles on defense. On offense the game plan was to not be able to run block, hit an open receiver, drop a well thrown ball and fumble after running for a first down and forget the snap count.

If the coaches didn't teach them these things they would go undefeated.

chose to forget how and why they struggled last year in the games where the defense broke down.

They had games where Graham looked outmatched. Yes, talent was an issue, but for the most part Graham got the most he could have with the group he had, EXCEPT for a few clunker games.

He's still ok in my book, but expecting greatness was silly.

In comment 15365876 BamaBlue said:

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this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett. I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable.

This was exactly what bothered me the most. All that time to get ready and to come out so unprepared and lethargic was bothersome

In comment 15365876 BamaBlue said:

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this team had 5 months to prepare for this game. They were completely unprepared and made no in-game adjustments. This was an extremely poor coaching job from Judge, Graham and Garrett. I'm not exonerating the guys on the field... they're professionals who should have been better prepared and more capable of executing. This was a poor effort in every facet of the game; unacceptable.

100%. Not a good look for Judge and the staff. Not much more to say. I still believe in Judge but this was not his finest hour and doesn't do much to increase confidence in him.

with so little talent at LB. LW is top notch, Blake can play at a high level, but there's really impact player(s) in the front seven besides LW.

Graham playing zone is most likely designed to protect/help the secondary, but their personnel at CB is probably best deployed in man. They looked really bad the other trying to identify formations, picking their correct man, etc.

I know fans believed and wanted to see an elite defense, but the parts aren't all there and the scheme Week 1 was vanilla for reasons.

the rest of the defense unravels. The Giants don't have legitimate pass rushers up front - that's not a coaching issue, it's a personnel issue.

If you can't run block or pass block, the rest of the offense unravels. The Giants don't have consistent blocking on the OLine - that's not a coaching issue, it's a personnel issue.

Once we see this team getting to the quarterback and opening up holes for Barkley, then maybe we can get to evaluating the quality of these coaches.

In comment 15365973 Dnew15 said:

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idea...I mean Judge seems open-minded about thinking outside the box given his stance on rotating offensive lineman. What if the Giants rotated play callers? The Giants have three guys that have called offensive plays at both the NFL and collegiate levels - Garrett/Kitchens/Dooley. How hard would it be for the Giants to adjust internally every two weeks or four weeks or whatever? I've played football in my life as an OL - nothing higher than high school - and I could see some internal logistical issues stemming from this idea, but man would it be difficult for opposing defenses to prepare each week! Just a thought ... maybe it's stupid. But after Sunday's offensive debacle on the heels of last year's 30th ranked offense - it can't be the worst idea in the world.

Just curious. How would you adjust the offensive players' training to be able to adapt to different coaching philosophies each week?

And overrated by Giants fans. People overlook his actual coaching faults because he has this “macho” and “motivator” attitude and overlook his actually coaching faults.

Most people thought Peart would be good. The biggest ? was Hernandez on the line. Upgraded WR and TE. Everyone was touting this defense as top ten. Now this is an issue with personal. Judge has been given the best quality of players the Giants have had in years. Everyone complaining about edge rushers, what elite pass rusher was passed in the draft or ignored in FA. There is less than 10 in the league, Bosa boys, Miller, chandler jones, tj watt, maybe I’m missing one or two. Seattle, Green Bay, Buffalo, Baltimore, KC, don’t have elite edge rushers and seem to make the playoffs.

and the local sports radio stations have been saying for the past two years that Joe Judge is an absolute farce. They say his tough guy stance and attitude is a joke, and that the Giants fanbase has been duped into believing that Judge is the protege from BB that will succeed.
I still love Joe Judge, but I haven't been sold on Jason Garrett. I think Garrett was a lousy play-caller in Dallas, and his technique with the Giants is identical to what he did in Dallas.
I love Graham, but the Defence let him down against Denver because they were too hyped up to go over the top. Too many mistakes were made, and I'm sure Graham will bring them down to earth against WFT.
We'll see.