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Talkin Giants OL Report

Now Mike in MD : 9/15/2021 10:20 am
Love these reports. A really detailed breakdown of the OL.

A few things: (1) WH was horrid. Probably his worst game as a pro. Bad in pass pro; bad in run blocking. Just terrible. And I like WH; (2) the right side of our line just cannot pick up stunts. Still; (3) AT was norderline dominant in both pass pro and run blocking. Shed that habit of over playing the potential inside move from the DL; (4) on a couple runs, you can see the rust SB had. There were a few holes that SB usually sees and just missed; and (5) Denver was just crashing down its safeties and blowing up our run plays.

Enjoy!
OL Report - ( New Window )
Was a good watch  
Straw Hat : 9/15/2021 10:25 am : link
Really encouraging performances by AT and Lemieux.
Its almost  
BigBlueJ : 9/15/2021 10:33 am : link
all worth the agony if we have a LT for the next 10 years.
unreal  
Platos : 9/15/2021 10:35 am : link
maybe bredeson plays for hernandez...

denver being able to crash their safeties down  
Platos : 9/15/2021 10:36 am : link
is probably a result of garrett's shitty route schemes
RE: unreal  
Angel Eyes : 9/15/2021 10:37 am : link
In comment 15367292 Platos said:
Quote:
maybe bredeson plays for hernandez...

Isn't he doing that for Lemieux already?
A  
Toth029 : 9/15/2021 10:37 am : link
Week ago, people were flipping out over a Andrew Thomas preseason game.
Will Hernandez is going to find himself on some team's bench next year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/15/2021 10:38 am : link
The fat lady is warming up on his days as a starter.
RE: Will Hernandez is going to find himself on some team's bench next year  
BigBlueJ : 9/15/2021 10:40 am : link
In comment 15367298 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The fat lady is warming up on his days as a starter.


He is just so unathletic, unless it is head on he cannot move laterally. That is why he looks good pulling but nothing else.
RE: Will Hernandez is going to find himself on some team's bench next year  
Straw Hat : 9/15/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15367298 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The fat lady is warming up on his days as a starter.


After watching this video. Id say she already belted a full concert. Id bench him Thursday. Was almost as bad as solder.
RE: A  
Harvest Blend : 9/15/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15367295 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Week ago, people were flipping out over a Andrew Thomas preseason game.


And talking about how good Hernandez had been looking.
the thing for Thomas is consistency  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2021 10:45 am : link
He has had good individual games before, but hasn't really been able to start stringing them together. Fingers crossed that it starts tomorrow night.

A lot of people who insisted all offseason that Hernandez is actually good are looking pretty foolish right now.
RE: A  
christian : 9/15/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15367295 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Week ago, people were flipping out over a Andrew Thomas preseason game.


But then it was revealed he was very sick and probably shouldn’t have been out there.

Maybe Hernandez has had the flu for 48 months?
Hernandez having a nice camp was a blip on the radar  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/15/2021 10:47 am : link
He's never been able to string together two-three consistent quality games to me.

Thomas is a bit more encouraging but he's inconsistent too.
RE: denver being able to crash their safeties down  
ATL_Giants : 9/15/2021 10:50 am : link
In comment 15367293 Platos said:
Quote:
is probably a result of garrett's shitty route schemes
More hooks and stop routes
It's really  
Joey in VA : 9/15/2021 10:56 am : link
Disappointing too, he had a solid preseason and now he looks like he's getting worse. Another high pick blown by the Teflon Don
RE: It's really  
Now Mike in MD : 9/15/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15367325 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Disappointing too, he had a solid preseason and now he looks like he's getting worse. Another high pick blown by the Teflon Don


If he plays like that Thursday, Allen might set a record for sacks by a DT.
RE: RE: It's really  
Angel Eyes : 9/15/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15367337 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15367325 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Disappointing too, he had a solid preseason and now he looks like he's getting worse. Another high pick blown by the Teflon Don



If he plays like that Thursday, Allen might set a record for sacks by a DT.

The record for interior defensive linemen (4-3 defensive tackle/3-4 defensive end) is 5 sacks. That's the mark that Allen would have to beat.

NFL Sacks Single Game Leaders (since 1960) - ( New Window )
Play action would have worked  
George from PA : 9/15/2021 11:25 am : link
None of it
A number of things troubling  
jvm52106 : 9/15/2021 11:32 am : link
there but, I think can be corrected. First the troubling:

1) Nate Solder is done. It isn't just some technique issues or just needing to get the rust out or even a switch from LT to RT. He has lost strength after last year and as a taller guy that strength goes from the waist down first. He has no solid base. When Miller plans him on his butt that was strength and leverage vs Lanky, bad technique and no strength! He was planted on a straight on rush. * I had been a person who thought Solders vet savy and knowledge would help overcome some issues but they cannot overcome just being done. He is done, at least as a starter or even a guy playing a decent amount of reps per game. Peart- issues and all has to be the play there.

2) Will Hernadez is a backup at best. He is a real issue inside more times than not. The Giants blew that second round pick and it is time to move on from him- but, you may have to wait a week or two as we adjust elsewhere.

3) I think Skura or Price will be starting at Center and Gates will be playing guard soon. If Price is even a modest Center and Gates a solid guard that is a win for us. That then moves Bredensen (sp) to guard. We should see:
LT- Thomas
LG- Gates
C- Price
RG- Bredensen
RT- Peart

4) The Giants call on some overly complciated blocking in the run game. The pulls by the TE or backside blocks require the TE to come a long ways to get to his guy and that guy isn't always just open to be picked up (when your RT is in the way).. With Barkleys propensity to dance, maybe we man up more and do not give the backside such easy chances to get involved.

The fixing part to me starts with getting our combos right. I think Thomas is set (with growth still to come). I think Shane L would be the LG but that knee is going to probably stop that this year, so Gates to Guard makes sense. C is going to be Price or Skura and I think both will be adequate there. RG then seems to be for Bredensen (sp) and Peart out at Tackle.

The Giants need to go more up temp and less obvious crap like the split the RB out wide to then call him back in (behind or next to Jones) and then hand him the ball, tricks nobody and basically opens up ample opportunity for mistakes- false starts, motion just plain missed blocks. We need to be the aggressors far more than we are. Garrett's offense is passive. I think Daniel Jones needs to be let loose -yes, I am serious and take some chances. Show you will attack. Let the OL become attackers and not absorbers..
No need to worry about W.H.  
M.S. : 9/15/2021 11:48 am : link

He won’t be here next season.
RE: No need to worry about W.H.  
cjac : 9/15/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15367383 M.S. said:
Quote:

He won’t be here next season.


I agree, no way he'll be back.

I also think he wouldnt have been playing if Zach Fulton didnt retire.
This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
Capt. Don : 9/15/2021 11:56 am : link
What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?
RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
cjac : 9/15/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?


Daniel Jones would have still fumbled
RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
jvm52106 : 9/15/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?


It stinks to think that way and I totally agreee with your what if scenario but, we may just have been stuck with Eli even longer (he was done) and maybe Shurmur lasts a year or two longer.. The right players chosen is step 1 but they need the right guy at the same time.

I am hoping Judge is that guy and now we need to develop the right guys.

Giants of 1988 shuffled players along their Oline until 1988 2nd pick Jumbo Elliott was moved to LT, former 1st round Tackle bust William Roberts was moved to LG and 1988 1st Rd pick Eric Moore was moved to RG. We then installed 5th RD Pick Doug Riesenberg at RT and our oline change was complete. BUT- a lot of folks forget that Elliott failed in his one start at RT (was embarrassed), Karl Nelson was injured and gone for his career, Roberts Failed at LT and we moved players about and finally got it set.

We need to find the right combo here. Thomas is the LT and Gates will be a starter at C or G. So that is two positions. Peart has to be the RT at this point, so that is 3 spots. I assume Price moves into C and Bredensen RG so Gates can play LG.
RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
NYRiese : 9/15/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?

That certainly does imply that Dave Gettlemen AND the scouts screwed up .
I coulnd't believe we couldn't run the ball against them.  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/15/2021 12:27 pm : link
Oh wait I know why, they were crashing safeties constantly. How about Garrett call some plays to take advantage of that. We should have been attacking deep middle a few times. Keep those guys at least honest.
Thomas played better than Becton did  
ZogZerg : 9/15/2021 12:31 pm : link
for all you crying that we drafted Thomas over him.

I agree with the line combo  
Dave on the UWS : 9/15/2021 12:35 pm : link
suggested on this thread. Probably during the 10 days before the Falcons' game.
It sucks for Lemieux though. Watching Skinner's All-22, he REALLY looks like his Pass pro technique had dramatically improved to the point he would be a quality starter. We could have had Lt,LG,C really set. That would have made me feel a lot better about things. Like we were making real progress solving our biggest problem.
OL-related somewhat, but here's the Toney play that had no chance  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/15/2021 12:43 pm : link
https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1438177863132487680?s=20


Brian Baldinger
@BaldyNFL
·
14m
.
4th play of the 2021 season and I am confused by the design. Can anyone out there in the football world help me out? They couldn’t possibly believe that “influence blocking “ Von Miller was a good idea
Teaching Moments  
NJLCO : 9/15/2021 12:47 pm : link
JJ talks about watching film and correcting. Short week to fix a lot. Where is the meanest dog in this bunch? A couple of notes DJ stared down every throw, play fakes were a joke and SB was slow to every hole but his first run. Pass it off to rust but SB and DJ didn’t help theses guys
RE: RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
GeofromNJ : 9/15/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15367388 cjac said:
Quote:
In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?



Daniel Jones would have still fumbled

Which is why I would have drafted Josh Allen and Nick Chubb. With Allen at QB (I know he lost on Sunday) the Giants would be contenders for the Super Bowl every year for the next ten years.
RE: Teaching Moments  
D HOS : 9/15/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15367436 NJLCO said:
Quote:
JJ talks about watching film and correcting. Short week to fix a lot. Where is the meanest dog in this bunch? A couple of notes DJ stared down every throw, play fakes were a joke and SB was slow to every hole but his first run. Pass it off to rust but SB and DJ didn’t help theses guys


That touches on a thought I have had lately and I'm probably going to try to raise this point during the season.

We hired quality control coaches, assistant coaches, consultant coaches... Judge brought in all these smart guys so we WOULD NOT have crappy play design, crappy play selection, would use players to their best advantage (not crash barkley into the line), would be flexible, unpredictable, no tendancies.

So... what of that?

I would love to have ideally some insider information on how that really functions, but maybe some media analysts can also show evidence that this really occurs in the real world, rather than be only a plan, be just talk.
Back to the oline  
D HOS : 9/15/2021 1:23 pm : link
One of these smart quality control/assistants prove that, hey that solder guy? he can't hold his ground. We need a better option immediately. You can't put him in as the starter again. This rusher on the other team? Can't influence block or try to chip him with a back. He needs a stud blocker assigned to him all the time. That kind of thing. DJ... you have 3-4 seconds to throw it max. Times up? Throw it out of bounds, don't hitch, double pump, pull it down...
The Line Did Open Some Lanes  
Jeffrey : 9/15/2021 1:27 pm : link
that Barkley just missed. Not trying to defend the OL but fair is fair.
RE: RE: RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
cjac : 9/15/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15367439 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15367388 cjac said:


Quote:


In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?



Daniel Jones would have still fumbled


Which is why I would have drafted Josh Allen and Nick Chubb. With Allen at QB (I know he lost on Sunday) the Giants would be contenders for the Super Bowl every year for the next ten years.


I concur, also if we drafted Josh Allen we would have been able to draft the other Josh Allen
RE: RE: RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/15/2021 1:31 pm : link
In comment 15367439 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
In comment 15367388 cjac said:


Quote:


In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:


Quote:


What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?



Daniel Jones would have still fumbled


Which is why I would have drafted Josh Allen and Nick Chubb. With Allen at QB (I know he lost on Sunday) the Giants would be contenders for the Super Bowl every year for the next ten years.


Allen fumbled twice on Sunday. Dude is a scrub. /s
They moved WH  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/15/2021 1:37 pm : link
to RG. Initially I thought that he was on his way out and they would add a guard in the draft (they said a couple guys were drafted they liked) or sign a FA. Then the good camp reports so I said ok I was wrong and flip flopped.

I think they actually really like SL, AT, NG and believe Peart will work into a good tackle.

I hope with SL they keep the big picture in mind. Worse thing would be to get the surgery late in the year and then it messes up two seasons. Lets hope the three OL they added have some talent and this line becomes pretty good in a couple games.
RE: This is such a useless exercise on my part but...  
M.S. : 9/15/2021 1:45 pm : link
In comment 15367387 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
What if we had taken Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb instead of Barkley and Hernandez?

And I'm not already bummed out about getting humiliated by Denver!

Ugh!!!
There's a lot of Monday morning QBs here cherry picking successful  
BestFeature : 9/15/2021 3:58 pm : link
draft picks that we know about years after the draft. I'm pretty sure Dave could make the selections too now in 2021.
I call BS on Monday morning QBs here cherry picking  
arniefez : 9/15/2021 4:20 pm : link
I would say at least 75% of the people who were posting the day of the draft wanted no part of a RB with the #2 pick. Most people wanted a QB, some wanted Chubb, some wanted Nelson.

The Barkley pick was a disaster the minute it was made and then the worst case scenario played out. He got hurt quickly and has been a worthless pick.

Everyone is talking about how he was rusty Sunday and that makes sense considering he hasn't had any contact since he got hurt again. But dancing around and missing holes isn't new for him.

Hopefully some of the home run plays come back. But I'm not counting on it and he has done nothing since his rookie year for the Giants to be considering giving him a top of the market contract. That would be catastrophic at this point.
OMFG Solder and Hernandez were horrendous!  
Simms11 : 9/15/2021 4:25 pm : link
I know they’re both playing new positions, but that was horrible. Those two are going to get DJ killed. Peart might be a better option at this point. Solder is a seasoned veteran and plays like a rookie from a Division III school!
A simple little message for Will H. ---  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2021 4:27 pm : link

Do YOUR job

Don't worry about the guy next to you; that's the coach's responsibility. At-the-end-of-the-day it's a schematic, technique or personnel problem - not in your job description.

There an old saying that holds here - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
for once I agree with Randal  
Greg from LI : 9/15/2021 4:28 pm : link
I didn't like the Barkley pick at all and said so at the time. Wanted Nelson.

I really, really didn't like the Jones pick, and said so at the time.
I just got to the end where he reviewsed Solder  
Now Mike in MD : 9/15/2021 4:30 pm : link
My god!! How any coach can look at those reps ad think that Solder is better than Peart is beyond me. Not because Peart is a world beater at this point, but Solder is just getting ragdolled
Was watching that this AM  
Bear vs Shark : 9/15/2021 4:58 pm : link
Just got into these guys, and I like them. The episode from yesterday gave more credit to the offense than I thought they deserve, but it was well reasoned, rationale, and had a lot of good points within it.

Their main takeaway is stop running on 1st down if it isn't working and throw the ball down the field more.
Cherry Picking  
Samiam : 9/15/2021 5:07 pm : link
Every 1st round Gettleman has made was a reach, every one of the 4. This is not cherry picking. Everyone one of them could have been picked later or better yet, not picked at all. And, if you’re going to say that the jury is out on Toney, one of those offensive linemen who were available would have been a massive upgrade on the OL.
it was probably WH's worst game as a pro?  
santacruzom : 9/15/2021 5:12 pm : link
Damn, that's saying something.
RE: RE: A  
santacruzom : 9/15/2021 5:14 pm : link
In comment 15367303 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 15367295 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Week ago, people were flipping out over a Andrew Thomas preseason game.



And talking about how good Hernandez had been looking.


There's a guy somewhere on BBI who kept swearing that Hernandez is awesome and that anyone who doubted his awesomeness didn't know football. It was bizarre.
RE: I call BS on Monday morning QBs here cherry picking  
santacruzom : 9/15/2021 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15367757 arniefez said:
Quote:
I would say at least 75% of the people who were posting the day of the draft wanted no part of a RB with the #2 pick. Most people wanted a QB, some wanted Chubb, some wanted Nelson.


I'm not sure about 75% but it was definitely a large number. I know because I debated with a large number of them, because I wanted Barkley, because I was (still am?) stupid.
Bob Papa and Carl Banks are doing two podcasts  
arniefez : 9/15/2021 5:19 pm : link
one is called The Papa Banks Show so far there's only been one episode and it wasn't for me. But check it out. I think some people here would really like it.

The other one is called Bleav in Giants Bob Papa and Carl Banks. They're pretty objective and frankly it's tough to listen to. But if you're a Giant fan you should listen in my opinion.

IMO the Lawrence Tynes Paul Schwartz NY Post Big Blue Rush podcast is also very good but man again it's depressing to listen to.

I don't think anyone who follows the Giants is shocked that they lost. But everyone is pretty shaken at the way they lost - everything people were concerned about, everything we went back forth about all off season was a disaster on Sunday.

The OL was horrid on the right side and there was no run blocking at all. The defense couldn't get off the filed and there was no pass rush and in his 27th start the QB still lacked the fundamentals and instincts good NFL QB's show right away.

Sunday was a Giant fan's worst nightmare. Hopefully there is nowhere to go but up.
santacruzom doesn't make you stupid  
arniefez : 9/15/2021 5:27 pm : link
makes you a fan. I pulled the 75% number out of my a** but that's what it felt like to me.

I wanted Charlie Weis instead of Tom Coughlin. I wanted Sam Darnold or Nelson instead of Barkley and I'm not sure he's any better than Jones. I'd still take him over Jones though. I'd still take Josh Rosen over Jones talk about stupid.

Not that I'll ever have the chance but if I did I would never draft a QB with an adequate at best arm in the top 10. Going back I wanted Zack Martin over OBJ and Aaron Donald. We all like what we like. That's the fun of this place.

But we're not getting paid millions of dollars to make picks or have been made billionaires by the people who post here. We're amateurs and sadly I think there's about a 100 of us on these threads with all different opinions that could have run the Giants more successfully over the past decade than the people who are paid millions or pocket billions to do it.
Wonder what this says about Kevin Zeitler ....  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2021 6:23 pm : link

Remember when he was going to be the answer when he came in from the Browns. He came here and disappointed (and got too expensive ?)

So off he goes to the Ravens (who couldn't wait to snatch him up); One man's trash, another man's treasure?

Could it be that right offensive tackle is basically the REAL problem that not only stinks on it's own but has had serious negative effects on the left guard play, for a long time - going back to when Justin Pugh proved he couldn't handle that position.
Correction ...  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2021 8:35 pm : link

Right guard play.
If we're doing draft day confessionals  
Bear vs Shark : 9/15/2021 11:29 pm : link
I hated the OBJ pick, wanted Zach Martin, but did not want Aaron Donald, thought he was too undersized. I then of course immediately went to loving OBJ to the point that I never wanted to see him traded.

I was 100% in on Darnold, and thought Rosen was the next best option. Thought Allen might end up being good, but was too developmental coming out of Wyoming. The one player I absolutely did not want was Barkley, as I believed Chubb would be better than him, and basically got a raw deal with his draft stock due to his injury. Also thought that Nelson being a Guard automatically DQ'd him from 2nd overall.

Thought Engram was a good pick also but wanted Njoku (lol failure all over the place there) -- or Ramczyk, who would have been amazing.

Another one is that I was a believe in Ereck Flowers, but thought the Tunsil bong rip pic was such a non-story joke, that we should have taken him on the spot. That Tunsil pick REALLY sucks though, because even if he didn't fall to the Giants, it would have pushed Ronnie Stanley (I think) to us.

Thank u for listening to my ted talk. Win some, lose some, I thought Marvin Austin would be a beast so wtf do I know
RE: There's a lot of Monday morning QBs here cherry picking successful  
Bear vs Shark : 9/15/2021 11:33 pm : link
In comment 15367733 BestFeature said:
Quote:
draft picks that we know about years after the draft. I'm pretty sure Dave could make the selections too now in 2021.
The Daniel Jones pick was pretty universally reviled and panned, and the Barkley pick was definitely controversial due to him being an RB and the need for a QB.

Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence were probably his least "controversial" picks.

I guess my point is that you can't paint everyone as using hindsight if they're saying they knew that Daniel Jones was a reach and drafting an RB #2 overall was stupid, because plenty of people were saying it at the time.
I wanted Mahomes bad ...  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2021 11:53 pm : link

(And so did Mcadoo, but Andy Reid wanted him a lot more)

I wanted Nelson,; wanted None of the so-called "franchise QBs", especially Darnold & Rosen). I understood Barkley because he was a game-breaker.

I liked both Wirfs and Becton better than Thomas

Yada, yada; the existential question remains ...  
Manny in CA : 9/15/2021 11:59 pm : link

Now that it's obvious that RT is broken, can all the king's horses and men put it back-together again ?

Can Bredeson, Gates play tackle ?
RE: Cherry Picking  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/16/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15367801 Samiam said:
Quote:
Every 1st round Gettleman has made was a reach, every one of the 4. This is not cherry picking. Everyone one of them could have been picked later or better yet, not picked at all. And, if you’re going to say that the jury is out on Toney, one of those offensive linemen who were available would have been a massive upgrade on the OL.

In fairness, he has made six first round picks, not four.

Barkley was a bad pick for the Giants at that point (and you can make a case about RBs not being worth a pick that high due to risk and supply), but he wasn't really a reach. He would have gone in the top 5 no matter what. He was just an awful pick for a team with a really bad OL, and it was evidence of a fundamental flaw in self-scouting where the roster was at that time.

Jones was a reach. I know people will say that if you love a prospect, you take him, and that goes double for QBs. But it felt a reactionary need pick after watching Eli continue to decline in 2018 and DG seemingly realizing that the rebuild needed to get underway.

Dexter Lawrence was a very good pick. Not even remotely a reach.

DeAndre Baker was obviously a bad pick based on how everything played out. And several have pointed out that there was still a cluster of pretty evenly-graded corners still sitting there when DG traded up for Baker. That said, Baker was widely considered the top CB prospect, so taking him at the end of the 1st round can't really be considered a reach. Trading up for him was probably not the best demonstration of understanding how to work the draft, but the pick itself shouldn't really be classified as a reach.

Andrew Thomas may have been a reach depending on how you viewed the OTs last year, and I know that many people get hung up on the fact that there was no consensus OT1, but that also means that AT was OT1 on some boards. The bigger issue is that the continued failure to get the OL fixed led to having to take any of those OTs there. Still, it's not a reach to go for a top OT prospect in the top 5 of the draft.

Hard to say that Toney was a reach, when it has been reported that he would have been picked a few selections later if the Giants hadn't taken him. I do think that you could make a case that Paye or Darrisaw would have been better picks at #20, but it was pretty clear that they were going into the draft looking for a shiny new toy for Jones. It was one of those times where Mara himself had basically telegraphed their intentions months earlier. Toney may well end up a bust. And he might absolutely be the wrong fit by giving a multipurpose offensive weapon to an offensive coordinator who struggles with creativity. But I don't think that makes him a reach.

Bad picks and reaches are not always synonymous.
About Thomas ...  
Manny in CA : 9/16/2021 10:49 am : link

Sure we desperately needed an offensive lineman, but if you look at him through the same lens that Gettleman used to look at Saquaon Barkley, (the "Gold Jacket lens"), Thomas just doesn't measure up.

To pick him #5 over-all is the definition of reach, when his OT contemporaries were picked #10 (Wills), #11 (Becton), #13 (Wirfs).

This pick reminded me of the catastrophic 1998 draft when we were just as desperate for an offensive tackle and passed on future multiple time ALL PRO Alan Faneca and picked on the future dunce of Super Bowl XXXV, Shaun Williams.

I think Thomas has it in him to be a good solid pro, but a statue of him at Canton ? - I doubt that.
I wanted the Giants to draft WH  
D HOS : 9/16/2021 7:08 pm : link
And they did and I was pumped. I think he can be a really good player, I am surprised at his struggles. I don't think they give up on him yet, he may need to struggle some more before it clicks, maybe need to go back to the bench a while, but I think he turns it on, eventually.
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