“When he does – and I don’t think it’s an if, it’s a when,” Dilfer said about the turnover problem. “When he does, and as they get more talented up front, they gotta get better up front. When those things happen, I think this is probably a next year thing to be honest with you. You’ll see flashes of it this year. But when he does, he’s going to be one of the better players in the NFL.
I'll have what he's having!
OTOH, on short routes, he locks onto primary targets, doesn't look off the safety, probably because he is concerned with getting the ball out on time. So the obvious answer would be to call more intermediate to deep pass plays, right?
Until you get in the red zone. The RZ is where great QB's make their money, when every pass play is a short pass play. If DJ can't get that figured out, he will never be anything more than a marginal NFL QB.
when multiple players run longer routes the whole defense expands.
when everyone runs short routes the whole defense contracts. That's what makes the RZ more difficult in the first place. more players in less space. Garrett's offense seems to turn every series into the RZ voluntarily. Or at least every 3rd down.
and again Daniel Jones had 13tds and 0 ints in the RZ as a rookie. At Duke he hadn't thrown a RZ int in multiple seasons (see link below for more numbers).
there is a clear difference between the results prior to Garrett and with Garrett. And the fact that year 2 after a full offseason started with many of the same issues, despite an OL that actually played decent and with almost all the weapons healthy seems ominous. If they got here at the same exact point in time this would be a chicken or the egg situation. But in this case the chicken got here first and had what is currently a fairly pessimistic fanbase optimistic. at least until the egg arrived.
Giants Now: Daniel Jones' numbers in red zone - ( New Window )
Not fumbling in the redzone would have been a good start.
Think of it this way, the Giants defense played an extremely poor game. However, Daniel Jones had the chance to complete that drive with a TD that would have given the Giants a very good chance to win the game.
Daniel Jones COULD have been the hero on Sunday. All of his biggest fans COULD have come out of the game talking about how the defense played like shit but Daniel Jones rallied the Giants to victory with a couple of 2nd half scoring drives.
The implication that life just isn't fair for Daniel Jones because the defense didn't play well is ridiculous. Defenses league-wide play poorly every single week, and the league's best QBs win games in spite of it. Sometimes you're going to need to score nearly every time you touch the ball. Be a goddamn hero for once.
There are certainly a handful of plays over the course of a game where a QB has a chance to bail out their team and great QB's make those plays.
But the majority of the game a QB needs to be playing within an effective system.
Had Jones not fumbled and completed that drive with a TD you are right it would have been the type of thing great QBs do. And it's all the more frustrating that he didn't because he was so close. But it wouldn't have changed the fact that the overall offensive system is outdated and ineffective.
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Not fumbling in the redzone would have been a good start.
Think of it this way, the Giants defense played an extremely poor game. However, Daniel Jones had the chance to complete that drive with a TD that would have given the Giants a very good chance to win the game.
Daniel Jones COULD have been the hero on Sunday. All of his biggest fans COULD have come out of the game talking about how the defense played like shit but Daniel Jones rallied the Giants to victory with a couple of 2nd half scoring drives.
The implication that life just isn't fair for Daniel Jones because the defense didn't play well is ridiculous. Defenses league-wide play poorly every single week, and the league's best QBs win games in spite of it. Sometimes you're going to need to score nearly every time you touch the ball. Be a goddamn hero for once.
There are certainly a handful of plays over the course of a game where a QB has a chance to bail out their team and great QB's make those plays.
But the majority of the game a QB needs to be playing within an effective system.
Had Jones not fumbled and completed that drive with a TD you are right it would have been the type of thing great QBs do. And it's all the more frustrating that he didn't because he was so close. But it wouldn't have changed the fact that the overall offensive system is outdated and ineffective.
Believe me, I'm not here to defend Jason Garrett or his ridiculous offense. I never wanted him here in the first place, and he does Jones no favors. The best time to fire him would have been in January. The current best time to fire him is today. The next best time to fire him will be Friday morning.
Nevertheless, whatever system is in place, the QB needs to make quick and correct decisions, and execute the throws far more often than Jones has.
Don't look at stats.
Eye test.
We lost that game because Bridgewater was a much better QB.
Right now, Daniel Jones is not as good as Teddy Bridgewater.
That, is a fact.
That is a big problem.
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I might be wrong.
Don't look at stats.
Eye test.
We lost that game because Bridgewater was a much better QB.
Right now, Daniel Jones is not as good as Teddy Bridgewater.
That, is a fact.
That is a big problem.
I AM using the eye test...I don't see it.
We're all guessing anyway, right?
I can't believe the Giants are in this situation. Some of us truly feel Jones is not THE GUY. Some of us blame the lack of talent and poor game planning. But none of us know for sure either way. What's obvious is the offense we saw week one was not ready to play an NFL defense.
I think DJ needs consistency from our OL. Right now there is none. He has not played with any of the new weapons except for week 1. Garrett stopped calling plays back in 2012. Dallas potent offense had more talent.
My own take? Jones seems to be one of these QBs who needs everything to be just right in order to succeed. That has worried me since day one. No matter what happens, I don't think things are going to be just right for the Giants' QB for a while.
I would add that if there was some consistency up front that would help DJ. Garrett stopped calling plays for Dallas after 2012. Linnehan and Moore have done a good job with opening up their offense. DJ has added weapons but they missed all of training camp so there is a learning curve issue. Giant fans have lost their patience with the losing. So many of the comments on BBI are knee jerk reactions. Gotten toxic.
This, of course, would mean Garrett has to dramatically modify his offense. Frankly, I think Fred Kitchens could do this much better. Making it work with Jones is MUCH, MUCH better for the team going forward, then having to start all over again from scratch.
Just had this exact discussion with a co-worker yesterday. When Judge was hired he said that was his coaching philosophy. Garrett's insistence on emphasizing things he doesn't excel at is mind boggling. Let him sling.
How is your information not speculative?
there's not really a way for me to answer that so it's up to you to either believe it or not. ive never claimed to be an asshat but it's not hearsay or speculation.
Why?
Elway has a pattern when drafting QBs in the upper rounds. He has favored big, strong armed prospects. Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, Drew Lock. Jones did not fit that profile. Lock did.
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How is your information not speculative?
there's not really a way for me to answer that so it's up to you to either believe it or not. ive never claimed to be an asshat but it's not hearsay or speculation.
Why?
Elway has a pattern when drafting QBs in the upper rounds. He has favored big, strong armed prospects. Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, Drew Lock. Jones did not fit that profile. Lock did.
you can believe in whatever patterns you see. all i can tell you is that in this rarest of cases i happen to know for a fact that you are not correct and im not just guessing at that based on a pattern or a media report.
We want a winner, not a saint. If he's a great kid give him a job on the sidelines or in the front office. We Giants fans deserve an elite talent at QB to root for.
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and again Daniel Jones had 13tds and 0 ints in the RZ as a rookie. At Duke he hadn't thrown a RZ int in multiple seasons (see link below for more numbers).
And the immortal Jacoby Brissett threw 15 TD’s and 0 picks that year. I am not going to defend Garrett, I hated the hiring and have been very vocal here about how he is a big part of the problem. That said, a number of QB’s have had a lot of success under his offenses, so maybe he isn’t the only problem.
you are right. He seems like a decent kid. There was that one play in the first Q when the Broncos went offsides and he hit Slayton deep on the sidelines in a *free shot*. It was a beauty. Smart and well executed. I thought wow. ok... give us this, 90% of the time and you are the man. But we get it 10% of the time, and it's not enough.
Why?
Elway has a pattern when drafting QBs in the upper rounds. He has favored big, strong armed prospects. Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, Drew Lock. Jones did not fit that profile. Lock did.
you can believe in whatever patterns you see. all i can tell you is that in this rarest of cases i happen to know for a fact that you are not correct and im not just guessing at that based on a pattern or a media report.
Whatever you say. I'm not asking for whatever source you have, I'm curious how you know...
Well it certainly appears you, Peter King, John Elway, and Mike Klis absolutely don't have the same set of facts as Eric on LI & Dave Gettleman.
And as mentioned, Daniel Jones is a NY Giant no matter who is calling bullshit...
Is DJ staring at one WR, or is his head turned in one direction?
There is a huge difference.
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In comment 15367666 Section331 said:
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and again Daniel Jones had 13tds and 0 ints in the RZ as a rookie. At Duke he hadn't thrown a RZ int in multiple seasons (see link below for more numbers).
And the immortal Jacoby Brissett threw 15 TD’s and 0 picks that year. I am not going to defend Garrett, I hated the hiring and have been very vocal here about how he is a big part of the problem. That said, a number of QB’s have had a lot of success under his offenses, so maybe he isn’t the only problem.
he's not the only but when an entire offense of players regresses you have to look to the common link, no? Was Slayton not previously a promising WR? Engram's production last year was laughable compared to previous seasons (which were already considered disappointing).
Jones 100% needs to do better too but asking any individual player (even a QB) to make a difference in this offense is like thinking any individual was going to make James Bettcher's defense all of a sudden work.
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In comment 15367730 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15367666 Section331 said:
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and again Daniel Jones had 13tds and 0 ints in the RZ as a rookie. At Duke he hadn't thrown a RZ int in multiple seasons (see link below for more numbers).
And the immortal Jacoby Brissett threw 15 TD’s and 0 picks that year. I am not going to defend Garrett, I hated the hiring and have been very vocal here about how he is a big part of the problem. That said, a number of QB’s have had a lot of success under his offenses, so maybe he isn’t the only problem.
he's not the only but when an entire offense of players regresses you have to look to the common link, no? Was Slayton not previously a promising WR? Engram's production last year was laughable compared to previous seasons (which were already considered disappointing).
Jones 100% needs to do better too but asking any individual player (even a QB) to make a difference in this offense is like thinking any individual was going to make James Bettcher's defense all of a sudden work.
The QB touches the ball on every play. You can see the talent even under the worst circumstances. The top 10 QBs would show more than Jones has, imo. But now we have more around him, and the protection was good last week. And still mistakes and just 7 points. I can't believe you look at Jones in year three and see a guy as good as Mahomes, Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, Brady, Stafford, Herbert, Lamar, Prescott, or Murray. He's not a baller like those guys.
It was discussed a month BEFORE the draft that the Broncos were exploring getting out of the 10th spot in that 2019 draft. So the trade was not some sort of panic move by Elway because Jones was suddenly gone at #6.
I stand firm - any attempt to suggest that Denver wanted Jones in the first round is simply trying to feel better that the Giants weren't the only team that viewed Jones so highly...
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Wasn’t taking Jones. I can say that with 100% certainty
It was discussed a month BEFORE the draft that the Broncos were exploring getting out of the 10th spot in that 2019 draft. So the trade was not some sort of panic move by Elway because Jones was suddenly gone at #6.
I stand firm - any attempt to suggest that Denver wanted Jones in the first round is simply trying to feel better that the Giants weren't the only team that viewed Jones so highly...
I agree. This isn't to say that teams didn't have Jones on their radar and may have been considering him at some point...just nobody close to #6. Even Belichick made some very public comments if he was there late in Rd 1 that he would have been in the conversation. The Broncos as well in early Rd 2 and if Lock was gone.
This is CYA kind of stuff that is very transparent...
I'm not asking for whatever source you have, I'm curious how you know...
a source you're not asking me about said so. im just another guy at a keyboard who likes the giants. you can believe whatever you want but i've got no reason to make this or anything else ive ever posted up. it's actually somewhat illuminating to see how easy it is for someone to be completely sure about the wrong thing just because they want to believe it.
also it's not like what I said is breaking any news. Vacchiano reported this long before I knew anything. I'll say 2 things re: where my info came from, it was not dave gettleman and I can tell you with a high degree of certainty it's from someone closer to the decisions than wherever Ralph got his info.
@RVacchianoSNY
Why didn't Dave Gettleman wait until 17 to take Daniel Jones?
"I know for a fact there were tei teams that would've taken him in front of 17,” he said. “I know that for a fact"
(The two teams, according to NFL sources: The Redskins and Broncos)
7:22 PM · Apr 27, 2019
but sure. there's no way 2 teams who ended up taking QBs, 1 of whom traded down from their first round pick right after the NYG selected Jones, and both of whom who have already moved on from those players, would have taken Jones. Totally inconceivable.
There’s a great book called the Scout Mindset about how we make decisions and how sure we are of ourselves. A fun trick in it discusses how we should practice giving percentages to things we believe and should seriously examine anything we believe 100%.
I’ll play first and say I’m 20% sure Daniel Jones can be a great QB who makes his teammates better.
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Wasn’t taking Jones. I can say that with 100% certainty
It was discussed a month BEFORE the draft that the Broncos were exploring getting out of the 10th spot in that 2019 draft. So the trade was not some sort of panic move by Elway because Jones was suddenly gone at #6.
I stand firm - any attempt to suggest that Denver wanted Jones in the first round is simply trying to feel better that the Giants weren't the only team that viewed Jones so highly...
With respect, you stand firmly wrong.
There’s a great book called the Scout Mindset about how we make decisions and how sure we are of ourselves. A fun trick in it discusses how we should practice giving percentages to things we believe and should seriously examine anything we believe 100%.
I’ll play first and say I’m 20% sure Daniel Jones can be a great QB who makes his teammates better.
I'm not even sure what you are asking. Like what if Daniel Jones wasn't Daniel Jones? Or, what if he played like this for the Bears? I'd be laughing at the Bears, as I laughed at them over Trubisky. I feel it is a 5% chance Jones can be a great QB. With odds like that you look elsewhere, forthwith. But even if you think it is a 20% chance, then the Giants made a gigantic mistake not considering Fields or Mac Jones at 11.
Ralph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
Why didn't Dave Gettleman wait until 17 to take Daniel Jones?
"I know for a fact there were tei teams that would've taken him in front of 17,” he said. “I know that for a fact"
(The two teams, according to NFL sources: The Redskins and Broncos)
7:22 PM · Apr 27, 2019
but sure. there's no way 2 teams who ended up taking QBs, 1 of whom traded down from their first round pick right after the NYG selected Jones, and both of whom who have already moved on from those players, would have taken Jones. Totally inconceivable.
You don't find it odd or peculiar that Gettleman felt the need to make that comment?
Why not simply say they liked Jones and thought he was worth taking at #6? Why the need to justify the pick by saying other teams had interest?
To me, that screams insecurity and CYA 101.
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Ralph Vacchiano
@RVacchianoSNY
Why didn't Dave Gettleman wait until 17 to take Daniel Jones?
"I know for a fact there were tei teams that would've taken him in front of 17,” he said. “I know that for a fact"
(The two teams, according to NFL sources: The Redskins and Broncos)
7:22 PM · Apr 27, 2019
but sure. there's no way 2 teams who ended up taking QBs, 1 of whom traded down from their first round pick right after the NYG selected Jones, and both of whom who have already moved on from those players, would have taken Jones. Totally inconceivable.
You don't find it odd or peculiar that Gettleman felt the need to make that comment?
Why not simply say they liked Jones and thought he was worth taking at #6? Why the need to justify the pick by saying other teams had interest?
To me, that screams insecurity and CYA 101.
The whole Denver was picking Jones canard is desperate and laughable. Their evidence is that they traded with the Steelers after Jones was picked. yea ok.. that's not evidence, that's speculation. Maybe they traded down after Devin White, or Josh Allen. Or maybe they just wanted out of the 10 spot because they saw better value later.
You don't find it odd or peculiar that Gettleman felt the need to make that comment?
Why not simply say they liked Jones and thought he was worth taking at #6? Why the need to justify the pick by saying other teams had interest?
To me, that screams insecurity and CYA 101.
No I don't find it peculiar bc it's a pro forma statement every GM makes about their picks and because I don't get triggered by every comment the guy makes.
Either way it's beside the point. He isn't the GM of any other team so what he says doesn't have any bearing on the truth of the statement.
There’s a great book called the Scout Mindset about how we make decisions and how sure we are of ourselves. A fun trick in it discusses how we should practice giving percentages to things we believe and should seriously examine anything we believe 100%.
I’ll play first and say I’m 20% sure Daniel Jones can be a great QB who makes his teammates better.
If Jones was on WFT instead BBI absolutely would be laughing at them
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But if Jones played for another team and was a top 10 pick, who some considered a reach (whether you agree or not), or he was an older QB who had one decent season, what would your opinion be of him? People have a hard time reflecting on something they have an emotional investment in (I’m a therapist). You can’t escape it, even if you try! Emotions drive the brain. But pretending you could, would folks really think the QB they’ve watched the past two seasons inspires faith or is just the victim of a bad OC? If that’s the case, I wonder if they apply that logic elsewhere.
There’s a great book called the Scout Mindset about how we make decisions and how sure we are of ourselves. A fun trick in it discusses how we should practice giving percentages to things we believe and should seriously examine anything we believe 100%.
I’ll play first and say I’m 20% sure Daniel Jones can be a great QB who makes his teammates better.
If Jones was on WFT instead BBI absolutely would be laughing at them
a hundred percent.
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In comment 15367974 ajr2456 said:
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Wasn’t taking Jones. I can say that with 100% certainty
It was discussed a month BEFORE the draft that the Broncos were exploring getting out of the 10th spot in that 2019 draft. So the trade was not some sort of panic move by Elway because Jones was suddenly gone at #6.
I stand firm - any attempt to suggest that Denver wanted Jones in the first round is simply trying to feel better that the Giants weren't the only team that viewed Jones so highly...
With respect, you stand firmly wrong.
Why is it in America that people stand firm and defiant and confident about things that they either know to be untrue or they have no way of proving that these things are true?
Emotion rules the day.
The rest just doesn’t fit...
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In comment 15368060 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15367974 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Wasn’t taking Jones. I can say that with 100% certainty
It was discussed a month BEFORE the draft that the Broncos were exploring getting out of the 10th spot in that 2019 draft. So the trade was not some sort of panic move by Elway because Jones was suddenly gone at #6.
I stand firm - any attempt to suggest that Denver wanted Jones in the first round is simply trying to feel better that the Giants weren't the only team that viewed Jones so highly...
With respect, you stand firmly wrong.
Why is it in America that people stand firm and defiant and confident about things that they either know to be untrue or they have no way of proving that these things are true?
Emotion rules the day.
Internet, bringin people together baby!
It's incredible how fucking stupid Gettleman was in that whole scenario.