Yeah, show sucks, but had it on in the background while I'm doing some work. Not exact, but pretty much said what most of us have been saying all along. The most archaic offensive scheme in the NFL by far. Same offense for the last 15 years from Garrett, no innovation, not putting his players in a position to win. Watching tape of the Giants is painful and he feels bad for the players. Said if there is no improvement after tonight he should be fired immediately.
It's a good offense when you have all the pieces, but we aren't invested like that. And I do like him as a playcaller, but his scheme is killing me and you are starting to hear that around the league everywhere. He's the wrong coordinator for this team IMO. We don't have that, not thrilled with what Kitchens has done, but if we lose tonight, and we see calls for Garrett's head will be loud.
If safeties are going to crash before Saquon touches the ball we need to open up the deep sell play-action or start running read option. Live with the sacks on the playaction but it will open up big pays for Saquon as well with guys cheating. Be more aggressive, we have the pieces now and its up to the defense to lock down considering how invested we are.
We need more threads like these...
Of course, I’m merely just thinking out loud. It is tough to judge Garrett seeing that so many key players missed practically all of preseason and the OL is going through a major shuffle.
I'm not sure how it changes, Garrett is who he is, but he has had top 10 offenses before. Guys need to execute.
I understand all the components of a good golf swing and how to help someone get better - doesn't mean I can physically execute them myself
I'm not sure how it changes, Garrett is who he is, but he has had top 10 offenses before. Guys need to execute.
section. I recall Norv's offense being productive in multiple stops across the league as an OC. I am not sure his offense required HOF'ers to be successful. Although this is not a defense of Garrett.
Because they understand the mechanics of the position, playbooks, coaching strategies, and defenses. Even if they weren't very good NFL QB's, they still have to know their shit to play at that level.
This.
section. I recall Norv's offense being productive in multiple stops across the league as an OC. I am not sure his offense required HOF'ers to be successful. Although this is not a defense of Garrett.
You're probably right, I'm likely letting his struggles as a HC influence how I view his offenses. He had one of the best O's in the league in Washington with Brad Johnson at QB, so he must have been doing something right.
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section. I recall Norv's offense being productive in multiple stops across the league as an OC. I am not sure his offense required HOF'ers to be successful. Although this is not a defense of Garrett.
You're probably right, I'm likely letting his struggles as a HC influence how I view his offenses. He had one of the best O's in the league in Washington with Brad Johnson at QB, so he must have been doing something right.
He certainly was not cut out to be a HC.
Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.
We need more threads like these...
OK, you got me to laugh..
The point of these shows is to say something that will get people talking. It is to provide a different narrative than the broadly accepted one, because nobody tunes in to here a take they have already heard and agree with.
The narrative is that Jones and the offensive line suck. That isn't wrong, but nobody is tuning into that. So what do you do? You blame the failure on something else.
Do I think Garret is a great offensive coordinator? No I sure don't. Do I think he is one of the main culprits to this offense being bad year in and year out? No. I don't see many teams with bad offensive lines and below average QBs moving the ball effectively.
Garret may be part of the problem, but he is certainly not the primary problem.
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and Dilfer and the like ... how come these shitty NFL QBs know so much after they quit playing?
Because they understand the mechanics of the position, playbooks, coaching strategies, and defenses. Even if they weren't very good NFL QB's, they still have to know their shit to play at that level.
Some of the worst baseball takes/commentary come from former players who got a tv/radio gig.
You realize changing your opinion based on new information is what smart people do. Didn’t like him before the draft, but has since changed his opinion. I can’t believe our political establishment has convinced the general public that “flip flopping” is an absolute negative.
Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.
Your continued stance is tiresome at best. Not many offenses run four fucking curls 8 yards from the LOS. Give me a fucking break.
Yeah I listened to that. He definitely is not high on Jones, said the offense isn't helping him at all (nor is the OL) but also said he needs the right offense to be a Kirk Cousins level QB. He still likes Darnold better.
Id agree his concepts are dated and on the opposite side of the spectrum from San Francisco and LA.
However, I’ve come around to the point that Dan Duggan has made repeatedly which is that Garrett (while running a totally unimaginative offense) is ultimately doing what Joe Judge wants. Judge thinks the Giants can win games with a “Take what the defense gives you” approach that doesn’t really focus on Daniel Jones’ few strengths.
Skill set not skillet, sorry for typo
"The play for Toney was part of the script that coaches devise leading into the game, so clearly the Giants believed it would work. But the Giants didn’t execute and the Broncos weren’t fooled.
Part of the problem was that Toney essentially came onto the field wearing a sandwich board that said, “We’re going to be creative now.” Creativity needs to be a fabric of the offense to be effective rather than having a designated player for gadget plays."
Link - ( New Window )
Kitchens called the plays last year against Arizona. Like most other games, it was ugly.
I disagree with BW and Terps a lot because their positions are rigid and don’t even entertain any new info as having any baring on their positions.
Where Jones is concerned, they both think he’s a complete waste of time. That’s been their position from day 1.
Now, from the standpoint of being a top QB, I think we’ve seen enough now to feel that will never be. That’s accumulation of more info. However, I think we’ve also seen enough indications that given the right system, that emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, he could perform at a Cousins or Dalton level.
As far as the organization as a whole, available info tells me they are SPOT ON.
Some of the worst baseball takes/commentary come from former players who got a tv/radio gig.
No doubt, some guys just aren't cut out for the job, whether they don't come across well on screen and/or mic, or if producers get them to dumb it down too much. My point is that former marginal pros can be good announcers because of their experience, but it doesn't guarantee it.
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He was on the Michael Kay Show just yesterday saying how limited he is - he's been consistent with that opinion since draft night, as have most other folks (except Trent Dilfer).
Yeah I listened to that. He definitely is not high on Jones, said the offense isn't helping him at all (nor is the OL) but also said he needs the right offense to be a Kirk Cousins level QB. He still likes Darnold better.
Exactly, both things can be true - DJ can be a limited QB who is held back by an unimaginative play caller.
I disagree with BW and Terps a lot because their positions are rigid and don’t even entertain any new info as having any baring on their positions.
Where Jones is concerned, they both think he’s a complete waste of time. That’s been their position from day 1.
Now, from the standpoint of being a top QB, I think we’ve seen enough now to feel that will never be. That’s accumulation of more info. However, I think we’ve also seen enough indications that given the right system, that emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, he could perform at a Cousins or Dalton level.
As far as the organization as a whole, available info tells me they are SPOT ON.
I mean my position on DJ has evolved since Day 1. At first I really questioned his arm strenght, but then saw him live. He takes heat off passes to throw with more touch. He doesn't have the strongest arm, but certainly not the worst. I saw what they did with him in the beginning of the year, but around week 5 he needed to start putting the pieces together by the end of the year or it was possible time to move on. A light went off in the second half of that Bucs game.
This year (so far) I see a solid QB who is trying to press because his team is getting the shit kicked out of it on both sides of the ball. And the worst we go down, the worst it gets, hopefully that gets better with experience. Garrett having an offense where everything needs to be perfect play after play after play isn't helping matters.
I was never a fan of the hire. To me it’s a classic Mara hire like so many others over the past decade of disappointment. Running this organization into the ground by hiring only familiar faces and people who have ties to this team from the past. I hope Judge has the freedom to fire him if he wants to and it isn’t a decision he has to get approval from Mara or Gettleman for, otherwise I fear Judge will go down with this ship as well.
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is changing your stance back and forth from week to week. Re/ evaluating is changing your position as you get more information. Somehow, the two have gotten merged in our society.
I disagree with BW and Terps a lot because their positions are rigid and don’t even entertain any new info as having any baring on their positions.
Where Jones is concerned, they both think he’s a complete waste of time. That’s been their position from day 1.
Now, from the standpoint of being a top QB, I think we’ve seen enough now to feel that will never be. That’s accumulation of more info. However, I think we’ve also seen enough indications that given the right system, that emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, he could perform at a Cousins or Dalton level.
As far as the organization as a whole, available info tells me they are SPOT ON.
I mean my position on DJ has evolved since Day 1. At first I really questioned his arm strenght, but then saw him live. He takes heat off passes to throw with more touch. He doesn't have the strongest arm, but certainly not the worst. I saw what they did with him in the beginning of the year, but around week 5 he needed to start putting the pieces together by the end of the year or it was possible time to move on. A light went off in the second half of that Bucs game.
This year (so far) I see a solid QB who is trying to press because his team is getting the shit kicked out of it on both sides of the ball. And the worst we go down, the worst it gets, hopefully that gets better with experience. Garrett having an offense where everything needs to be perfect play after play after play isn't helping matters.
You should publish this Daniel Jones fan fiction; at least get paid for it.
A solid QB who is just pressing because everyone else stinks? Good grief.
Garrett’s offense doesn’t need every play to be perfect, but Jones needs every play to be perfect to be successful. Except that’s not the reality of the NFL. Open by half a step is pretty open in the NFL.
I disagree with BW and Terps a lot because their positions are rigid and don’t even entertain any new info as having any baring on their positions.
Where Jones is concerned, they both think he’s a complete waste of time. That’s been their position from day 1.
Now, from the standpoint of being a top QB, I think we’ve seen enough now to feel that will never be. That’s accumulation of more info. However, I think we’ve also seen enough indications that given the right system, that emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, he could perform at a Cousins or Dalton level.
As far as the organization as a whole, available info tells me they are SPOT ON.
What indications have you seen from Jones that he will be as good as Cousins? Cousins is not elite but he was 8th in QB Rate last season, he was 4th in 2019. If one was being objective you would say Jones is on the Trubisky track, not the Cousins track.
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is changing your stance back and forth from week to week. Re/ evaluating is changing your position as you get more information. Somehow, the two have gotten merged in our society.
I disagree with BW and Terps a lot because their positions are rigid and don’t even entertain any new info as having any baring on their positions.
Where Jones is concerned, they both think he’s a complete waste of time. That’s been their position from day 1.
Now, from the standpoint of being a top QB, I think we’ve seen enough now to feel that will never be. That’s accumulation of more info. However, I think we’ve also seen enough indications that given the right system, that emphasizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, he could perform at a Cousins or Dalton level.
As far as the organization as a whole, available info tells me they are SPOT ON.
I mean my position on DJ has evolved since Day 1. At first I really questioned his arm strenght, but then saw him live. He takes heat off passes to throw with more touch. He doesn't have the strongest arm, but certainly not the worst. I saw what they did with him in the beginning of the year, but around week 5 he needed to start putting the pieces together by the end of the year or it was possible time to move on. A light went off in the second half of that Bucs game.
This year (so far) I see a solid QB who is trying to press because his team is getting the shit kicked out of it on both sides of the ball. And the worst we go down, the worst it gets, hopefully that gets better with experience. Garrett having an offense where everything needs to be perfect play after play after play isn't helping matters.
Daniel Jones does not have great or even good arm strength. He has passable arm strength. There are throws he cannot make that Herbert, Rodgers, Stafford and Mahomes, for instance, can make with regularity. If Jones had moxie, football smarts, ability to read and react, make quick decisions, and accuracy, then his arm strength wouldn't be an issue at all.
Daniel Jones was 12/14 with 214 yards, 1TD and 15.2 y/a when we had 2+ pass catchers running 15 yard+ routes.
Daniel Jones was 10/23 with 53 yards, 2 sacks and 2.3y/a with 1 or less WR running a 15 yard+ route
Another one - the Giants ran 11 personnel on 75% snaps. Which is high but understandable with Engram out, however they passed the 80%+ in this formation.
That's ridiculous, we're predictable. By deduction, I assume we were doing most of our running out of heavy sets. We're way overweight passing in passing looks and running in run looks. With no play-action or zone-read and redundant shallow routes was it any wonder that the Broncos safeties were able to crash the line when we wanted to run or clamp down on the short passing game when we went to throw? They weren't being challenged or forced into any sort of post snap decisions.
6/6 130 yards 1 td and 21.6 YPA w/2+ 15 yards or moreroutes
6/12 with 24 yards 1 sack and 2.0 y/a w/ 1+ 15 yards or less routes
Daniel Jones was 12/14 with 214 yards, 1TD and 15.2 y/a when we had 2+ pass catchers running 15 yard+ routes.
Daniel Jones was 10/23 with 53 yards, 2 sacks and 2.3y/a with 1 or less WR running a 15 yard+ route
Another one - the Giants ran 11 personnel on 75% snaps. Which is high but understandable with Engram out, however they passed the 80%+ in this formation.
That's ridiculous, we're predictable. By deduction, I assume we were doing most of our running out of heavy sets. We're way overweight passing in passing looks and running in run looks. With no play-action or zone-read and redundant shallow routes was it any wonder that the Broncos safeties were able to crash the line when we wanted to run or clamp down on the short passing game when we went to throw? They weren't being challenged or forced into any sort of post snap decisions.
It's almost as if, when you slice stats a hundred ways, you can find an analysis that backs up your point of view. There is no way you can draw any sensible conclusions from a sample size that small.
6/6 130 yards 1 td and 21.6 YPA w/2+ 15 yards or moreroutes
6/12 with 24 yards 1 sack and 2.0 y/a w/ 1+ 15 yards or less routes
I’m not going to bother with the shrill monkeys, but this stat is all you need to know. Obviously the numbers go down as attempts go up, but Garrett needs to give him a chance. We have Saquon Barkley, there are things that can be done to protect the QB with a poor line to get shots over the top. Everything he does well is like the antithesis of this offense.
6/6 130 yards 1 td and 21.6 YPA w/2+ 15 yards or moreroutes
6/12 with 24 yards 1 sack and 2.0 y/a w/ 1+ 15 yards or less routes
The eye test supports this. Jones throws a very good deep ball and runs well when he's in space. You have to change the system to what the player does well. If the OL sucks, try to mitigate this through roll-outs, etc.
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This was a Bobby Skinner tweet, so credit to him -
Daniel Jones was 12/14 with 214 yards, 1TD and 15.2 y/a when we had 2+ pass catchers running 15 yard+ routes.
Daniel Jones was 10/23 with 53 yards, 2 sacks and 2.3y/a with 1 or less WR running a 15 yard+ route
Another one - the Giants ran 11 personnel on 75% snaps. Which is high but understandable with Engram out, however they passed the 80%+ in this formation.
That's ridiculous, we're predictable. By deduction, I assume we were doing most of our running out of heavy sets. We're way overweight passing in passing looks and running in run looks. With no play-action or zone-read and redundant shallow routes was it any wonder that the Broncos safeties were able to crash the line when we wanted to run or clamp down on the short passing game when we went to throw? They weren't being challenged or forced into any sort of post snap decisions.
It's almost as if, when you slice stats a hundred ways, you can find an analysis that backs up your point of view. There is no way you can draw any sensible conclusions from a sample size that small.
He's been charting those 15+ yard route combinations for every game of the garrett era, and every week the deep concepts are more successful.
This is from 2013!
2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.
Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?
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it's less about Garrett and more about the talent and the inability to execute. I mean, I can't imagine Garrett not working with Jones to find plays that Jones wants and likes. There is just NFW.
Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.
Your continued stance is tiresome at best. Not many offenses run four fucking curls 8 yards from the LOS. Give me a fucking break.
What stance? Eliminating excuses?
This is from 2013!
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After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.
2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.
Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?
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"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"
They were still running Garetts philosophy though.
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It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.
This is from 2013!
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After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.
2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.
Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?
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"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"
They were still running Garetts philosophy though.
And came away with a handful of playoff wins from one of the most stacked teams in the league year-in year-out
They obviously don’t trust the line to protect or the QB to not turn the ball over. Jones only does two things well and they’ve chosen to not let him do one while being afraid the other will get him hurt.
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
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In comment 15368941 arniefez said:
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It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.
This is from 2013!
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After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.
2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.
Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?
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"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"
They were still running Garetts philosophy though.
And came away with a handful of playoff wins from one of the most stacked teams in the league year-in year-out
But Dak was the #1 rated deep passer in 2019, and one of the better QBs in the league.
Garrett’s system might not be elite, but it’s definitely not just his system that’s the problem with the offense. If they were confident throwing the ball downfield more they would do it.
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They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
In the short and intermediate game, Daniel Jones does have a very concerning accuracy problem. It could kill his career. He does throw a certain type of deep ball quite well, but he does not throw rockets like Stafford or Rodgers, not even close.
You can move the pocket to buy more time, that's what Shurmur did here and with Bridgewater last week against us. You don't have to air it out non-stop either, just a couple of shots to let them know that you can burn them. Have the WRs and TEs attack different depths even if you intend to throw short, don't shrink the field for them. Hell, it may actually open up some YAC opportunities on those shallow passes as well.
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They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.
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In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
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They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.
probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.
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In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
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They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.
probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.
Right he’s looked good on a small sample size of deep throws. A lot of guys on NFL rosters would. But there’s a reason it’s such a small sample size, and it’s probably not just Jason Garrett.
Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.
Yes agree with this take. Easy to pin years of failures in the draft and free agency on one guy, but there are a lot of cooks in this kitchen.
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In comment 15368980 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
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They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.
probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.
Right he’s looked good on a small sample size of deep throws. A lot of guys on NFL rosters would. But there’s a reason it’s such a small sample size, and it’s probably not just Jason Garrett.
I don't think Garrett is any great shakes. I'm sure the criticism heaped on him by Zeke and others is warranted. But I agree with you they are probably tailoring the game plan to suit Jones' limitations and liabilities. I am sure they are shielding him. Just as Judge shielded Jones in the preseason. These guys aren't stupid. They know what they are dealing with. The game plan tells you what they think of the player.
And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
Drew Brees had more QB talent in his birthmark than Jones has in his whole body.
You’re the nitwit if you can’t understand our points.
Bingo.
And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.
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ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.
And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.
Brees never had a strong arm, and I was the one here pointing it out he was starting to lase it late in the year circa 17 or 18 and it got earlier every year. Brees never had the arm strength that DJ did and became great through years of experience, touch, and accuracy. DJ could use some work on the underneath stuff, and a touch on the intermediate, but his deep ball is tremendous.
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In comment 15369001 Zeke's Alibi said:
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ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.
And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.
Brees never had a strong arm, and I was the one here pointing it out he was starting to lase it late in the year circa 17 or 18 and it got earlier every year. Brees never had the arm strength that DJ did and became great through years of experience, touch, and accuracy. DJ could use some work on the underneath stuff, and a touch on the intermediate, but his deep ball is tremendous.
Brees had an excellent arm and quite good arm strength into his mid-30s. He was a better deep ball thrower than Jones will ever be.
Jones does not throw a tremendous deep ball. he is good at certain deep stuff, yes, but there are at least 12 QBs with better deep ball ability than Daniel Jones.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
Yeah, but he didn't get there overnight. Every year you play, the football IQ goes up. These older QBs stick around in the league now because of the protections physically even with greatly diminished arm strength. I use him as an example, because DJ is a touch and accuracy thrower, not as good as Brees, but he also has a stronger arm.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
Let's say you're right
Garrett=Payton?
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On Brees vs Jones arm strength.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
Let's say you're right
Garrett=Payton?
One's a brilliant offensive mind that takes advantage of all his QBs strenghts, and the other can't. Which is the point of the thread.
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On Brees vs Jones arm strength.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
Yeah, but he didn't get there overnight. Every year you play, the football IQ goes up. These older QBs stick around in the league now because of the protections physically even with greatly diminished arm strength. I use him as an example, because DJ is a touch and accuracy thrower, not as good as Brees, but he also has a stronger arm.
Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.
If you can see that every DC can see that too. Which makes completing those deep shots much harder. The top offenses in the league attack downfield in an unpredictable manner. It doesnt matter what the down and istance is when the play starts, it matters when the play ends.
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In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:
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On Brees vs Jones arm strength.
One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
Let's say you're right
Garrett=Payton?
One's a brilliant offensive mind that takes advantage of all his QBs strenghts, and the other can't. Which is the point of the thread.
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No
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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
I'm not a Winston guy, but he's a much more talented passer than Jones.
Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.
In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.
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In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:
Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.
In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.
Brees did that with 50 less passing attempts than Jones that season on one of the top 6 rushing teams in terms of attempts and yards, but sure buddy.
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In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:
Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.
In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.
C'mon Zeke.. stop comparing Daniel Jones to Drew Brees. You have no basis for this comparison. it is not good enough to say Drew Brees once sucked (yr 2) and so did Jones, therefore they are similar. Daniel Jones is not Drew Brees, only with a stronger arm.
And to the point of the thread, QBs overcome their coordinators ALL THE TIME. If Jones can't figure out what works in this system, or can't appeal to the coach for what will work for him, then he is not the guy. He's not the only QB who ever had a dud OC. Stop making excuses for subpar play. Don't you want the Giants to have an elite QB? Don't you want us to have a talent like Herbert? Why do the Giants always have to overcome with inferior talent?
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In comment 15369048 Producer said:
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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No
Fair enough. But he also had offensive genius Bruce Arians as his coach and running the offense. Think he won the Super Bowl last year
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In comment 15369064 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15369048 Producer said:
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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No
Fair enough. But he also had offensive genius Bruce Arians as his coach and running the offense. Think he won the Super Bowl last year
Or maybe Winston has always been a more talented passer than Jones.
We went out and spend all this money on Golladay and we don't take any shots down the field with him until it's essentially garbage time. Garrett needs to do better, this isn't crazy talk. The whole NFL is talking about this and ironically it's our QBs best strength. So of course it's limiting his potential, which once again, is the point of the thread. Onwards and upwards!
We went out and spend all this money on Golladay and we don't take any shots down the field with him until it's essentially garbage time. Garrett needs to do better, this isn't crazy talk. The whole NFL is talking about this and ironically it's our QBs best strength. So of course it's limiting his potential, which once again, is the point of the thread. Onwards and upwards!
Well I agree, of course Golladay needs more targets. This might be a problem Jones needs to get over. Golladay doesn't get open, generally, rather his game is he wins contested catches. Jones might be shy to throw to a guy who is covered. We'll see what happens tonight. I expect he is going to force a bit to Golladay. But for that to work, Jones needs to throw to the right shoulder.
One of the big differences btwn Brees and jones is Brees was a great anticipation passer and Jones is a see it / throw it passer. For a guy who you say is a touch passer, not being a very good anticipation passer might be a fatal liability.
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and Dilfer and the like ... how come these shitty NFL QBs know so much after they quit playing?
I understand all the components of a good golf swing and how to help someone get better - doesn't mean I can physically execute them myself
Don't sell yourself short. You most definitely can execute a golf swing.
He was gifted. You're comparing Corollas to McLarens.
All you guys complain about is how guys aren’t wide open enough. The video thread from the other day is a perfect example. That was a tight window that he should have thrown at and completed, but he wasn’t wide open enough to you. Which is it?
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Is that serious, ton of stats out there that say differently. In fact the biggest coaching point last year was to dial it back a bit. They gave him a guy that is perfect for him, but Garrett can't seem to get him the ball. DJ is clearly not a guy that is shy about taking shots, but can't take em, if you don't call em. Which once again, is the point of the thread. This isn't just Orlovsky either, he's getting blasted league wide, and yet your still here trying to pin it on the QB. Big brain move I tell ya.
All you guys complain about is how guys aren’t wide open enough. The video thread from the other day is a perfect example. That was a tight window that he should have thrown at and completed, but he wasn’t wide open enough to you. Which is it?
There's a difference between throwing contested catches in man coverage and scheming guys open vs zone. Garrett's offense is easily defendable by many zone concepts and it actively makes it risky because defenders can gamble more (which is why we are so reliant on getting the run game going which was very disappointing we couldn't last week - hopefully that improves tonight with the changes)
The goalposts have been moved to Tom’s River.
The goalposts have been moved to Tom’s River.
Are you thick? The whole point with Jason Garrett's offense is everything needs to be perfect. The Cowboys had extremely talented offenses in his time there. We don't have that luxury, we have a below average line and above average skill players. Garrett needs to learn passing concepts that work when the run game ISN"T working. The whole point of this thread is Garrett is doing very little to play to Jones's strengths. It's all just sticks concepts. You notice how the Broncos had people streaking wide open all over the field against our zones even without their run game really working? When the hell have we ever seen that from Garrett?
1st: -6 yards reverse to Toney
2nd: -2 yards Booker up the middle
3rd: incompletion 6 yards to Shepard
4th: intentional delay of game followed by punt for touchback
Pathetic dogshit. A first possession to set the tone for the season.
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Has never thrown less than 22 TDS or more than 13 INTs.
The goalposts have been moved to Tom’s River.
Are you thick? The whole point with Jason Garrett's offense is everything needs to be perfect. The Cowboys had extremely talented offenses in his time there. We don't have that luxury, we have a below average line and above average skill players. Garrett needs to learn passing concepts that work when the run game ISN"T working. The whole point of this thread is Garrett is doing very little to play to Jones's strengths. It's all just sticks concepts. You notice how the Broncos had people streaking wide open all over the field against our zones even without their run game really working? When the hell have we ever seen that from Garrett?
It’s not Garrets offense that needs everything to be perfect it’s the QB. You’re so dug in on Jones being the guy that you can’t see that. If the QB can’t execute the simple sticks concepts the offense won’t go far.
You really think that if it was simple as call more deep plays that Garrett and Judge wouldn’t just do it? We have spent resources on offensive line, Barkley, Slayton, Golladay, Tate etc but still not talented enough - that’s a damning indictment on the GM and QB.
Maybe Garrett should just call the touchdown play.
1st: -6 yards reverse to Toney
2nd: -2 yards Booker up the middle
3rd: incompletion 6 yards to Shepard
4th: intentional delay of game followed by punt for touchback
Pathetic dogshit. A first possession to set the tone for the season.
I hate to agree with Terps...but this is it in a nutshell. Shitty scheme, shitty play calls, shitty execution. Result...shit
First Shurmur was the problem so we got rid of him. Gotta fix the oline, so we did that. Needs more weapons! Did that. The offense is still bad.
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In comment 15369197 ajr2456 said:
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Has never thrown less than 22 TDS or more than 13 INTs.
The goalposts have been moved to Tom’s River.
Are you thick? The whole point with Jason Garrett's offense is everything needs to be perfect. The Cowboys had extremely talented offenses in his time there. We don't have that luxury, we have a below average line and above average skill players. Garrett needs to learn passing concepts that work when the run game ISN"T working. The whole point of this thread is Garrett is doing very little to play to Jones's strengths. It's all just sticks concepts. You notice how the Broncos had people streaking wide open all over the field against our zones even without their run game really working? When the hell have we ever seen that from Garrett?
It’s not Garrets offense that needs everything to be perfect it’s the QB. You’re so dug in on Jones being the guy that you can’t see that. If the QB can’t execute the simple sticks concepts the offense won’t go far.
You really think that if it was simple as call more deep plays that Garrett and Judge wouldn’t just do it? We have spent resources on offensive line, Barkley, Slayton, Golladay, Tate etc but still not talented enough - that’s a damning indictment on the GM and QB.
Maybe Garrett should just call the touchdown play.
Why do we run the ball so much on first down? Especially when the run game isn't working? That just isn't modern-day football. Why do we insist on running all these stick concepts when that isn't really playing to your QB's strenghts? It's fine when the run game is going and they are forced to go man, but gets dicey when they sit in zone.
The whole NFL is killing Garrett (shit I heard them on Pat McAfee's show grilling the guy, which goes to show you what the players think of him) and many are saying Jones is the goods, but YOU can't seem to reconcile that. It's the average fan at home that thinks DJ is a laughingstock because he's been middling overall in primetime on the way to a bunch of losses for the most part and tripped on an 80-yard run. And the turnovers. All I hear about is the CAREER turnovers and not what we've seen overall. He had one turnover last week, not great, not terrible. The problem is we don't call an offense that actually gives you explosive plays UNLESS the run game is going. Can't operate like that in NFL.
I don't expect Garrett to change his ways, so I"m clinging onto the hope with Gates next to Thomas we actually run the ball behind them and can make his offense work. If not, I don't have much hope.
First Shurmur was the problem so we got rid of him. Gotta fix the oline, so we did that. Needs more weapons! Did that. The offense is still bad.
Did anyone ever accuse Shurmur of stifling the offense? He was a terrible game manager
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Garrett can not be a great coordinator and Jones can also not be a good QB.
First Shurmur was the problem so we got rid of him. Gotta fix the oline, so we did that. Needs more weapons! Did that. The offense is still bad.
Did anyone ever accuse Shurmur of stifling the offense? He was a terrible game manager
The offense wasn’t anything to write home about. They were under 20 points in half of Shurmurs games here.
You’re ignoring the point. They’ve changed everything around Jones and he still has the same issues. And you guys keep making the same excuses, “now we have to change this!”
It’s the end of the Eli era all over again.
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Shurmur the HC was the problem.
You’re ignoring the point. They’ve changed everything around Jones and he still has the same issues. And you guys keep making the same excuses, “now we have to change this!”
It’s the end of the Eli era all over again.
You need to wake up dude. Garrett is getting eviscerated league wide because of how hard he makes it on the QB and yet you are saying it's DJ. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you hated the pick at the time. I had no idea what to make of the pick and really did question his arm strength until I saw him throwing in camp. Last year I saw what they were doing with him, but wanted to see it click by end of year or move on. I saw that in the second half of the TB game.
Now it's clear our offensive scheme absolutely needs the run game or we are sunk. Why? Because we insist on running the ball on first down all the time and we don't have passing concepts that really work well against disguised zones. It was telling when Kitchens took over, it was like a breath of fresh air (and I honestly don't think much of the guy). Use the pass to set up the run, especially with a RB as talented as Saquon in space. We seem to be intent on doing things the opposite.
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In comment 15369265 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Shurmur the HC was the problem.
You’re ignoring the point. They’ve changed everything around Jones and he still has the same issues. And you guys keep making the same excuses, “now we have to change this!”
It’s the end of the Eli era all over again.
You need to wake up dude. Garrett is getting eviscerated league wide because of how hard he makes it on the QB and yet you are saying it's DJ. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you hated the pick at the time. I had no idea what to make of the pick and really did question his arm strength until I saw him throwing in camp. Last year I saw what they were doing with him, but wanted to see it click by end of year or move on. I saw that in the second half of the TB game.
Now it's clear our offensive scheme absolutely needs the run game or we are sunk. Why? Because we insist on running the ball on first down all the time and we don't have passing concepts that really work well against disguised zones. It was telling when Kitchens took over, it was like a breath of fresh air (and I honestly don't think much of the guy). Use the pass to set up the run, especially with a RB as talented as Saquon in space. We seem to be intent on doing things the opposite.
Eviscerated league wide or by the media? Those are two different things. It’s funny how you don’t take the media’s word when they have bad things to say about Jones.
Nobody on this thread said Garrett is doing a good job. But he’s not the only problem here.
I’ll continue to trust my instincts and eyes - which have been right the whole Gettleman era, and the people around the league I talk to. You can continue to be wrong if you wish, but you can still get out of Jones’ Fox hole before the grenade explodes.
Need to keep giving these WRs opportunities to make plays.
If you throw 1-2 deep shots per game, it's going to hurt more when players don't make catches, and it's unfair to expect perfection.
Just play football. If they lose, at least they go out swinging and know they gave themselves a chance to win. but whatever offense that was on Sunday was worse than watching a funeral on tape delay.
1st: -6 yards reverse to Toney
2nd: -2 yards Booker up the middle
3rd: incompletion 6 yards to Shepard
4th: intentional delay of game followed by punt for touchback
Pathetic dogshit. A first possession to set the tone for the season.
This post makes no sense. Especially with the marked improvement in the O last night.
What's your point?
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In comment 15369048 Producer said:
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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
I'm not a Winston guy, but he's a much more talented passer than Jones.
Gosh