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Orlovsky just shredded Garrett on First Take

slickwilly : 9/16/2021 12:35 pm
Yeah, show sucks, but had it on in the background while I'm doing some work. Not exact, but pretty much said what most of us have been saying all along. The most archaic offensive scheme in the NFL by far. Same offense for the last 15 years from Garrett, no innovation, not putting his players in a position to win. Watching tape of the Giants is painful and he feels bad for the players. Said if there is no improvement after tonight he should be fired immediately.
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RE: A couple stats jumped out for me post-mortem  
Producer : 9/16/2021 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15368890 AcesUp said:
Quote:
This was a Bobby Skinner tweet, so credit to him -

Daniel Jones was 12/14 with 214 yards, 1TD and 15.2 y/a when we had 2+ pass catchers running 15 yard+ routes.

Daniel Jones was 10/23 with 53 yards, 2 sacks and 2.3y/a with 1 or less WR running a 15 yard+ route

Another one - the Giants ran 11 personnel on 75% snaps. Which is high but understandable with Engram out, however they passed the 80%+ in this formation.

That's ridiculous, we're predictable. By deduction, I assume we were doing most of our running out of heavy sets. We're way overweight passing in passing looks and running in run looks. With no play-action or zone-read and redundant shallow routes was it any wonder that the Broncos safeties were able to crash the line when we wanted to run or clamp down on the short passing game when we went to throw? They weren't being challenged or forced into any sort of post snap decisions.


It's almost as if, when you slice stats a hundred ways, you can find an analysis that backs up your point of view. There is no way you can draw any sensible conclusions from a sample size that small.
RE: More on the Skinner stats  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15368901 AcesUp said:
Quote:
It wasn't just garbage time inflation either. Through the first 3 quarters those numbers were -


6/6 130 yards 1 td and 21.6 YPA w/2+ 15 yards or moreroutes

6/12 with 24 yards 1 sack and 2.0 y/a w/ 1+ 15 yards or less routes


I’m not going to bother with the shrill monkeys, but this stat is all you need to know. Obviously the numbers go down as attempts go up, but Garrett needs to give him a chance. We have Saquon Barkley, there are things that can be done to protect the QB with a poor line to get shots over the top. Everything he does well is like the antithesis of this offense.
It isn’t just one sample size though, these numbers are consistent  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 3:30 pm : link
with last year as well.
Producer  
AcesUp : 9/16/2021 3:32 pm : link
I'm being critical of his Broncos game and those are the stats from the Broncos game. Where am I getting this larger sample?
RE: More on the Skinner stats  
BrettNYG10 : 9/16/2021 3:41 pm : link
In comment 15368901 AcesUp said:
Quote:
It wasn't just garbage time inflation either. Through the first 3 quarters those numbers were -


6/6 130 yards 1 td and 21.6 YPA w/2+ 15 yards or moreroutes

6/12 with 24 yards 1 sack and 2.0 y/a w/ 1+ 15 yards or less routes


The eye test supports this. Jones throws a very good deep ball and runs well when he's in space. You have to change the system to what the player does well. If the OL sucks, try to mitigate this through roll-outs, etc.
RE: RE: A couple stats jumped out for me post-mortem  
Prude : 9/16/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15368910 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15368890 AcesUp said:


Quote:


This was a Bobby Skinner tweet, so credit to him -

Daniel Jones was 12/14 with 214 yards, 1TD and 15.2 y/a when we had 2+ pass catchers running 15 yard+ routes.

Daniel Jones was 10/23 with 53 yards, 2 sacks and 2.3y/a with 1 or less WR running a 15 yard+ route

Another one - the Giants ran 11 personnel on 75% snaps. Which is high but understandable with Engram out, however they passed the 80%+ in this formation.

That's ridiculous, we're predictable. By deduction, I assume we were doing most of our running out of heavy sets. We're way overweight passing in passing looks and running in run looks. With no play-action or zone-read and redundant shallow routes was it any wonder that the Broncos safeties were able to crash the line when we wanted to run or clamp down on the short passing game when we went to throw? They weren't being challenged or forced into any sort of post snap decisions.



It's almost as if, when you slice stats a hundred ways, you can find an analysis that backs up your point of view. There is no way you can draw any sensible conclusions from a sample size that small.


He's been charting those 15+ yard route combinations for every game of the garrett era, and every week the deep concepts are more successful.
A few BBI constants that are bulls**t  
arniefez : 9/16/2021 3:44 pm : link
It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.

This is from 2013!

Quote:
After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.


2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.

Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?

Quote:
"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"

RE: RE: I still maintain...  
bw in dc : 9/16/2021 3:47 pm : link
In comment 15368703 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 15368680 bw in dc said:


Quote:


it's less about Garrett and more about the talent and the inability to execute. I mean, I can't imagine Garrett not working with Jones to find plays that Jones wants and likes. There is just NFW.

Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.




Your continued stance is tiresome at best. Not many offenses run four fucking curls 8 yards from the LOS. Give me a fucking break.


What stance? Eliminating excuses?
If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 3:47 pm : link
They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?
RE: A few BBI constants that are bulls**t  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 3:49 pm : link
In comment 15368941 arniefez said:
Quote:
It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.

This is from 2013!



Quote:


After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.



2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.

Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?



Quote:


"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"



They were still running Garetts philosophy though.
RE: RE: A few BBI constants that are bulls**t  
Prude : 9/16/2021 3:51 pm : link
In comment 15368951 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15368941 arniefez said:


Quote:


It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.

This is from 2013!



Quote:


After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.



2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.

Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?



Quote:


"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"





They were still running Garetts philosophy though.


And came away with a handful of playoff wins from one of the most stacked teams in the league year-in year-out
RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 9/16/2021 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?


They obviously don’t trust the line to protect or the QB to not turn the ball over. Jones only does two things well and they’ve chosen to not let him do one while being afraid the other will get him hurt.
RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 3:55 pm : link
In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?


Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.
RE: RE: RE: A few BBI constants that are bulls**t  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 3:56 pm : link
In comment 15368958 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 15368951 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15368941 arniefez said:


Quote:


It's not tough to evaluate Garrett it's the opposite every amateur podcast that watches the all 22 has been screaming about how easy the Giants are to defend and the Cowboys literally fired him as the OC 5 years before they fired him as the HC.

This is from 2013!



Quote:


After watching Garrett coach the Cowboys for two and a half years, I think we can make some conclusions about what he does well and what he does not. And the playcalling has, since he took over as head coach, been a problem. Whether it's the actual decisions about plays, or the speed with which he relays the calls to the quarterback, or any combination of those or any other factors, it's the Garrett playcalling that makes you cringe and scratch your head.



2013 is a lifetime ago in the NFL.

Does this sound familiar from Dallas fans?



Quote:


"Why won't Garrett call something downfield?" "Garrett sucks, you have to throw it beyond the first down sticks!" "Dallas is so predictable and conservative. The play calling sucks!"





They were still running Garetts philosophy though.



And came away with a handful of playoff wins from one of the most stacked teams in the league year-in year-out


But Dak was the #1 rated deep passer in 2019, and one of the better QBs in the league.

Garrett’s system might not be elite, but it’s definitely not just his system that’s the problem with the offense. If they were confident throwing the ball downfield more they would do it.
RE: RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
Producer : 9/16/2021 3:57 pm : link
In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?



Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.


In the short and intermediate game, Daniel Jones does have a very concerning accuracy problem. It could kill his career. He does throw a certain type of deep ball quite well, but he does not throw rockets like Stafford or Rodgers, not even close.
RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
AcesUp : 9/16/2021 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?


You can move the pocket to buy more time, that's what Shurmur did here and with Bridgewater last week against us. You don't have to air it out non-stop either, just a couple of shots to let them know that you can burn them. Have the WRs and TEs attack different depths even if you intend to throw short, don't shrink the field for them. Hell, it may actually open up some YAC opportunities on those shallow passes as well.
RE: RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:00 pm : link
In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?



Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.


His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
Producer : 9/16/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15368980 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?



Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.



His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.


probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:09 pm : link
In comment 15368987 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15368980 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?



Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.



His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.



probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.


Right he’s looked good on a small sample size of deep throws. A lot of guys on NFL rosters would. But there’s a reason it’s such a small sample size, and it’s probably not just Jason Garrett.
RE: I still maintain...  
Jeffrey : 9/16/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15368680 bw in dc said:
Quote:
it's less about Garrett and more about the talent and the inability to execute. I mean, I can't imagine Garrett not working with Jones to find plays that Jones wants and likes. There is just NFW.

Regardless, I'm about removing all of these excuses right now. So jettison Garrett. And bring in another fall gu...errr...coordinator.


Yes agree with this take. Easy to pin years of failures in the draft and free agency on one guy, but there are a lot of cooks in this kitchen.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If Jones was the deep passer you guys think he is  
Producer : 9/16/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15368992 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15368987 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15368980 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15368969 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 15368946 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


They’d throw the ball deep more. Dak was the number one deep passer in 2019. Maybe they don’t trust the QB and the oline?



Now you are just being obtuse. DJ is clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower, but you can't get over it because he doesn't have a big arm. You need enough arm, not a ton of it. Brees never had the arm DJ does now and he was an excellent deep-ball thrower. Or you herp a derp over him missing the occasional throw. All QBs miss throws (except the aforementioned Drew Brees), it's only here they get overanalyzed to death. His weaknesses aren't around touch and accuracy.



His weaknesses are he’s not a good QB. Throwing the ball deep a lot requires a lot of good decision making - which Jones doesn’t posses. The Giants have the same data that you have and more. If he was “clearly a very skilled deep ball thrower” like you say they would just not throw deep more. He may be good at, but there’s other factors into throwing the ball deep and they clearly don’t trust him to do it too often.



probably, and let's be clear, the kinds of halos that Jones throws well are not high difficulty attempts. Every one of his defenders wants to make a big deal about the long pass accuracy stat. It's based on 39 attempts. The very definition of small sample size. But also, Jones is not making a lot of difficult attempts that you see Mahomes, Wilson, Stafford, Rodgers make. he doesn't have their arm so there are a bunch of throws he won't try.



Right he’s looked good on a small sample size of deep throws. A lot of guys on NFL rosters would. But there’s a reason it’s such a small sample size, and it’s probably not just Jason Garrett.


I don't think Garrett is any great shakes. I'm sure the criticism heaped on him by Zeke and others is warranted. But I agree with you they are probably tailoring the game plan to suit Jones' limitations and liabilities. I am sure they are shielding him. Just as Judge shielded Jones in the preseason. These guys aren't stupid. They know what they are dealing with. The game plan tells you what they think of the player.
Brees never had the arm DJ has and was an excellent deep  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:12 pm : link
ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.

And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.
Agreed  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:12 pm : link
For the record I didn’t want to hire Garrett and don’t think he’s a great coordinator but he’s not football ignorant.
I think Garrett  
AcesUp : 9/16/2021 4:12 pm : link
Wants to take deep shots but he's extremely reluctant to do so unless he's in a favorable down and distance. You can do that when you have the best OL and running game in football, you can't when you have whatever it is that we have. He needs to adjust.
RE: Brees never had the arm DJ has and was an excellent deep  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:14 pm : link
In comment 15369001 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.

And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.


Drew Brees had more QB talent in his birthmark than Jones has in his whole body.

You’re the nitwit if you can’t understand our points.
RE: I think Garrett  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:14 pm : link
In comment 15369003 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Wants to take deep shots but he's extremely reluctant to do so unless he's in a favorable down and distance. You can do that when you have the best OL and running game in football, you can't when you have whatever it is that we have. He needs to adjust.


Bingo.
RE: Brees never had the arm DJ has and was an excellent deep  
Producer : 9/16/2021 4:15 pm : link
In comment 15369001 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.

And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.


stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.
RE: RE: Brees never had the arm DJ has and was an excellent deep  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:17 pm : link
In comment 15369010 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15369001 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.

And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.



stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.


Brees never had a strong arm, and I was the one here pointing it out he was starting to lase it late in the year circa 17 or 18 and it got earlier every year. Brees never had the arm strength that DJ did and became great through years of experience, touch, and accuracy. DJ could use some work on the underneath stuff, and a touch on the intermediate, but his deep ball is tremendous.
RE: RE: RE: Brees never had the arm DJ has and was an excellent deep  
Producer : 9/16/2021 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15369013 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15369010 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15369001 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


ball thrower up until 2018 when his arm started to crap on him by seasons end.

And of course the sample size is that small! That's the whole fucking point of this thread you nitwits! Garrett doesn't do anything towards DJ's strenghts.



stop touting Jones' arm. It isn't very good. Did you even watch Brees when he first came into the league. You sound like you only watched him since 2015.



Brees never had a strong arm, and I was the one here pointing it out he was starting to lase it late in the year circa 17 or 18 and it got earlier every year. Brees never had the arm strength that DJ did and became great through years of experience, touch, and accuracy. DJ could use some work on the underneath stuff, and a touch on the intermediate, but his deep ball is tremendous.


Brees had an excellent arm and quite good arm strength into his mid-30s. He was a better deep ball thrower than Jones will ever be.

Jones does not throw a tremendous deep ball. he is good at certain deep stuff, yes, but there are at least 12 QBs with better deep ball ability than Daniel Jones.
Let’s say you’re right  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:20 pm : link
On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.
RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.



Yeah, but he didn't get there overnight. Every year you play, the football IQ goes up. These older QBs stick around in the league now because of the protections physically even with greatly diminished arm strength. I use him as an example, because DJ is a touch and accuracy thrower, not as good as Brees, but he also has a stronger arm.
RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/16/2021 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.


Let's say you're right

Garrett=Payton?
RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:26 pm : link
In comment 15369033 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.



Let's say you're right

Garrett=Payton?


One's a brilliant offensive mind that takes advantage of all his QBs strenghts, and the other can't. Which is the point of the thread.
RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.




Yeah, but he didn't get there overnight. Every year you play, the football IQ goes up. These older QBs stick around in the league now because of the protections physically even with greatly diminished arm strength. I use him as an example, because DJ is a touch and accuracy thrower, not as good as Brees, but he also has a stronger arm.


Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.
RE: I think Garrett  
Prude : 9/16/2021 4:33 pm : link
In comment 15369003 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Wants to take deep shots but he's extremely reluctant to do so unless he's in a favorable down and distance. You can do that when you have the best OL and running game in football, you can't when you have whatever it is that we have. He needs to adjust.


If you can see that every DC can see that too. Which makes completing those deep shots much harder. The top offenses in the league attack downfield in an unpredictable manner. It doesnt matter what the down and istance is when the play starts, it matters when the play ends.
RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Producer : 9/16/2021 4:33 pm : link
In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15369033 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


In comment 15369020 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


On Brees vs Jones arm strength.

One is a HOF QB. With elite football IQ.



Let's say you're right

Garrett=Payton?



One's a brilliant offensive mind that takes advantage of all his QBs strenghts, and the other can't. Which is the point of the thread.


If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/16/2021 4:45 pm : link
In comment 15369048 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:



If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.


Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there
Daniel Jones Metamorphosis  
Reale01 : 9/16/2021 4:48 pm : link
He was an aggressive QB who made a lot of big plays but made too many mistakes. The Giants have changed him into a timid QB who does not make big plays but still makes mistakes.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15369064 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15369048 Producer said:


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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:



If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.



Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there


He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
bw in dc : 9/16/2021 4:49 pm : link
In comment 15369064 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15369048 Producer said:


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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:



If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.



Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there


I'm not a Winston guy, but he's a much more talented passer than Jones.
RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 4:50 pm : link
In comment 15369045 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:




Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.


In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 4:54 pm : link
In comment 15369075 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15369045 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:




Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.



In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.


Brees did that with 50 less passing attempts than Jones that season on one of the top 6 rushing teams in terms of attempts and yards, but sure buddy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Producer : 9/16/2021 5:17 pm : link
In comment 15369075 Zeke's Alibi said:
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In comment 15369045 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15369032 Zeke's Alibi said:




Drew Brees’ third full season as a starter he threw 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions. You have faith that Jones puts up those type of numbers this year? He didn’t have Sean Payton in that year. Drew Brees would have been a very good quarterback without Sean Payton. Maybe not as prolific but there’s no career arc comparison between Jones and Brees.



In this offense? I'm not so sure, which once again, is the point of the thread. Garrett seems to be stuck in the past where down and distance matters as much. We run the ball too much on first down and we don't take shots at all at the expense of bad plays or zero gainers. It's a relic. I'm hoping the light goes on because there's definetly pressure there. I'm not sure Kitchens is the answer either considering his stint in Cleveland, but at least the one game we saw from him last year showed more modern concepts.


C'mon Zeke.. stop comparing Daniel Jones to Drew Brees. You have no basis for this comparison. it is not good enough to say Drew Brees once sucked (yr 2) and so did Jones, therefore they are similar. Daniel Jones is not Drew Brees, only with a stronger arm.

And to the point of the thread, QBs overcome their coordinators ALL THE TIME. If Jones can't figure out what works in this system, or can't appeal to the coach for what will work for him, then he is not the guy. He's not the only QB who ever had a dud OC. Stop making excuses for subpar play. Don't you want the Giants to have an elite QB? Don't you want us to have a talent like Herbert? Why do the Giants always have to overcome with inferior talent?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/16/2021 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15369071 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15369064 Thunderstruck27 said:


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In comment 15369048 Producer said:


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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:



If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.



Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there



He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No


Fair enough. But he also had offensive genius Bruce Arians as his coach and running the offense. Think he won the Super Bowl last year
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Let’s say you’re right  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15369141 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15369071 ajr2456 said:


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In comment 15369064 Thunderstruck27 said:


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In comment 15369048 Producer said:


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In comment 15369034 Zeke's Alibi said:



If Sean Payton was the coach of the Giants, Daniel Jones wouldn't be our QB.



Doesn't the QB of the Saints have the record for most Ints in a season? Massive football knowledge and moxie there



He also threw for 5000 yards and 33 tds that year. Jones hasn’t sniffed those numbers. Would the Saints trade Winston for Jones straight up? No



Fair enough. But he also had offensive genius Bruce Arians as his coach and running the offense. Think he won the Super Bowl last year


Or maybe Winston has always been a more talented passer than Jones.
I'm not comparing how good they are, just that they play similary  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 5:34 pm : link
when you see them throw. In fact, I think the best comparison is a faster pre-shoulder injury Alex Smith (who was a very good QB) There are guys that blow you away with power, and others with touch and accuracy. Someone like Rogers does both (or at least was able to), but he's also the best QB of his generation for my money. Herbert has the potential to possibly get there. Herbert also has the benefit of having a modern offensive mind and a very well-rounded offense. And they still only put up 20 pts last week.

We went out and spend all this money on Golladay and we don't take any shots down the field with him until it's essentially garbage time. Garrett needs to do better, this isn't crazy talk. The whole NFL is talking about this and ironically it's our QBs best strength. So of course it's limiting his potential, which once again, is the point of the thread. Onwards and upwards!
Jones and Brees  
ajr2456 : 9/16/2021 5:39 pm : link
Play similarly lol. Now I’ve heard it all.
RE: I'm not comparing how good they are, just that they play similary  
Producer : 9/16/2021 5:40 pm : link
In comment 15369148 Zeke's Alibi said:
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when you see them throw. In fact, I think the best comparison is a faster pre-shoulder injury Alex Smith (who was a very good QB) There are guys that blow you away with power, and others with touch and accuracy. Someone like Rogers does both (or at least was able to), but he's also the best QB of his generation for my money. Herbert has the potential to possibly get there. Herbert also has the benefit of having a modern offensive mind and a very well-rounded offense. And they still only put up 20 pts last week.

We went out and spend all this money on Golladay and we don't take any shots down the field with him until it's essentially garbage time. Garrett needs to do better, this isn't crazy talk. The whole NFL is talking about this and ironically it's our QBs best strength. So of course it's limiting his potential, which once again, is the point of the thread. Onwards and upwards!


Well I agree, of course Golladay needs more targets. This might be a problem Jones needs to get over. Golladay doesn't get open, generally, rather his game is he wins contested catches. Jones might be shy to throw to a guy who is covered. We'll see what happens tonight. I expect he is going to force a bit to Golladay. But for that to work, Jones needs to throw to the right shoulder.

One of the big differences btwn Brees and jones is Brees was a great anticipation passer and Jones is a see it / throw it passer. For a guy who you say is a touch passer, not being a very good anticipation passer might be a fatal liability.
RE: RE: Orlovsky  
fireitup77 : 9/16/2021 5:59 pm : link
In comment 15368664 jlukes said:
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In comment 15368650 Gman11 said:


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and Dilfer and the like ... how come these shitty NFL QBs know so much after they quit playing?



I understand all the components of a good golf swing and how to help someone get better - doesn't mean I can physically execute them myself



Don't sell yourself short. You most definitely can execute a golf swing.
Are you saying that DJ doesn't try to throw into tight windows?  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/16/2021 6:02 pm : link
Is that serious, ton of stats out there that say differently. In fact the biggest coaching point last year was to dial it back a bit. They gave him a guy that is perfect for him, but Garrett can't seem to get him the ball. DJ is clearly not a guy that is shy about taking shots, but can't take em, if you don't call em. Which once again, is the point of the thread. This isn't just Orlovsky either, he's getting blasted league wide, and yet your still here trying to pin it on the QB. Big brain move I tell ya.
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