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One Kadarius Scouting Report Not Referred to Much

Breaker : 9/17/2021 5:27 pm
Downside: One-year starter who only settled in fully at wideout as a senior. Not yet a polished receiver — has made strides in his craft but isn’t yet refined or nuanced enough. Occasionally chaotic route runner with uneven tempo and false steps. Even by his own admission has had trouble grasping certain route concepts.
Still learning how to defeat press coverage outside of his quick release. Given limited responsibilities as a wideout — more of a gadget player at this stage of his development. Suffered multiple catchable drops in Senior Bowl one-on-one drills.
Lined up in the slot nearly 90 percent of the time the past two seasons and hasn’t run a full or complex route tree. Only targets 20-plus yards downfield 17 times in four seasons, per PFF. Only scored three TDs his first three seasons combined. Might need his touches manufactured early on.
Can run out of control and off balance at times — all gas, no brakes. Can almost look uncoordinated when he presses the issue. Will freelance and lose yards just as easily as he makes the first man miss. Could fine tune his situational awareness at times. Didn’t always earn coaches’ full trust for a heavier offensive diet prior to 2020.
Small, lean frame. Short arms (31 1/4 inches) and small hands (9 1/4 inches). Not ideally built for contested catches. Turned in disappointing testing numbers on the bench press (nine reps) and short shuttle (4.25 seconds), which should have been a drill he excelled at.

Florida WR Kadarius Toney is a dangerous weapon with the ball in his hands. (AP Photo/Mark Humphrey)
Medical evaluation could hurt his stock — battled through injuries most of his career and missed big chunks of the 2017 and 2019 seasons. Suffered multiple shoulder injuries in college and is at higher risk for future subluxations.
Battled immaturity early in career and multiple off-field incidents. Was suspended for 2018 season opener following an altercation on campus between multiple players and local residents, having painted an “air gun” to look like an AR-15 rifle that spring. Also was pulled over with a real (loaded) AR-15 rifle in his car two months later, claiming his needed to protect himself against the residents involved in the first incident.

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I consume a lot of pre-draft coverage  
Producer : 9/17/2021 6:14 pm : link
and I don't know anybody who had better than a 2nd or 3rd round grade on this kid.
If there is any lingering doubt...  
bw in dc : 9/17/2021 6:16 pm : link
who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.
We know this one doesn't phase Gettleman,  
St. Jimmy : 9/17/2021 6:21 pm : link
"Will freelance and lose yards just as easily as he makes the first man miss."
 
christian : 9/17/2021 6:22 pm : link
Coming off the Baker saga, I was surprised they picked someone with a fire arm incident.

And furthermore, the particulars of the incident scream bad judgement.
RE: If there is any lingering doubt...  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/17/2021 6:23 pm : link
In comment 15374786 bw in dc said:
Quote:
who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.


The only thing that makes me question that is KTs special teams experience
Boylhart had him as his highest rated wide receiver  
Ira : 9/17/2021 6:24 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
.  
Go Terps : 9/17/2021 6:25 pm : link
Do you remember at the draft the draft room camera appeared to pick up an argument between Gettleman and a couple people in the room (including Judge)?

To have been a fly on the wall...
RE: I consume a lot of pre-draft coverage  
compton : 9/17/2021 6:26 pm : link
In comment 15374783 Producer said:
Quote:
and I don't know anybody who had better than a 2nd or 3rd round grade on this kid.



I think I saw draft reports of him going mid 20's to mid 2nd round.
RE: .  
Section331 : 9/17/2021 6:28 pm : link
In comment 15374767 Walnut said:
Quote:
I think it's clear Tony was forced on Judge by someone, maybe Mara or Graham. He is literally the last type of player you would think Judge would draft.


Why would Graham have any say in offensive players? And why would John Mara go to bat for Kadarius Toney? I heard they used a Ouija board and Wellington Mara told them to take Toney.
It's a mind boggling pick  
Joey in VA : 9/17/2021 6:31 pm : link
Considering the Baker thing. We could have Micah Parsons or Rashawn Slater and again this organization completely whiffs in the first round. I feel like this is a Judge pick, who has SEC sources and plenty of contacts down South. Gettleman for all of his faults does prefer bigger players and Toney is anything but. He should be returning kicks and punts and that's it. He's too dumb to learn Florida route concepts? Good luck in the NFL.
RE: RE: .  
japanhead : 9/17/2021 6:32 pm : link
In comment 15374799 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15374767 Walnut said:


Quote:


I think it's clear Tony was forced on Judge by someone, maybe Mara or Graham. He is literally the last type of player you would think Judge would draft.



Why would Graham have any say in offensive players? And why would John Mara go to bat for Kadarius Toney? I heard they used a Ouija board and Wellington Mara told them to take Toney.


maybe he meant chris mara?

a while back there was a jordan rannan podcast where he stated that chris mara was responsible for the davis webb, adam bisnowaty, and mykyele thomposon draft picks.

i don't think gettleman was pushing for toney because he was the one who looked dejected or frustrated after the televised war room argument that GoTerps referenced.
RE: .  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/17/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15374796 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Do you remember at the draft the draft room camera appeared to pick up an argument between Gettleman and a couple people in the room (including Judge)?

To have been a fly on the wall...


Wasn’t that in the second round and I’m not remembering any argument other than DG was clearly pissed an OL he wanted was gone. My best guess is he didn’t want to trade down in second round, that trade doesn’t seem like him at all. The first one is a no brainer, when a team is all hot and bothered for a QB you make it.

I don’t know how we can tell who is most responsible for this pick. We know Judge loves his SEC guys.


Third - definitely not a promising start, but let’s at least wait until the end of the year. Although, I’m starting to think he can’t run routes at an NFL level which turns into turnovers eventually (see Evan Engram, his route running turnovers aren’t talked about because of the the tip turnovers, but he often gets undercut because of his shitty routes)


He will be battling  
Silver Spoon : 9/17/2021 6:37 pm : link
Eli Apple & Erick Flowers as worst 1st round choice over the past 10 years. Awful, awful pick.
RE: RE: If there is any lingering doubt...  
bw in dc : 9/17/2021 6:37 pm : link
In comment 15374794 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15374786 bw in dc said:


Quote:


who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.



The only thing that makes me question that is KTs special teams experience


While special teams are an important element of the game, I really don't want my high first round investment playing too many special teams plays. I want them playing bigger roles on the offense or defense. And quickly.

Special teams needs should be solved in the later rounds.

I liked KT's talent before the draft. But with only one quality year of production at UF, plus the off the field challenges, taking him in the first round was a stretch.
RE: Honestly how could our front office have Toney rated higher than  
prdave73 : 9/17/2021 6:46 pm : link
In comment 15374764 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Bateman, Marshall and Moore. Our scouting department really sucks.


I thought the same thing.. smh..

Let’s be real, the Giants are in this huge mess because of the GM & scouts. Add below average OC & DC, and theirs your answer.
The scouting and drafting has stunk since about 2012.  
Red Dog : 9/17/2021 7:11 pm : link
Gettleman has improved things a little bit since then, but it's still obviously below average.
The draft is a crap shoot.  
CT Charlie : 9/17/2021 7:14 pm : link
Plenty of fans, coaches, scouts and analysts considered him an excellent choice if we were looking for a threat in the receiving game. Which we were.

It'll take a season or two to find out how good he is. Nick Saban said, "We'd love to have him here, I'll tell you that."
First round draft picks are meant to be ready to play.  
Gruber : 9/17/2021 7:46 pm : link
Toney just screams not a first round guy.
Gettleman needs to be gone. Unfortunately he's not going to be taking Chris Mara with him.
writing  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/17/2021 7:48 pm : link
off a player who has not yet been able to show what he can do for valid reasons is foolish.
He's  
AcidTest : 9/17/2021 8:08 pm : link
had a rocky start, but let's at least see what happens for the rest of the year before thinking he's another blown first round draft pick.

I watch a lot of college football. Toney was an electric player at Florida with extraordinary vision and start and stop (make you miss) ability. He was like a video game character. Insanely elusive. His game is horizontal not vertical speed. Extremely tough as well.

I nonetheless didn't want him because of his off the field incidents and thought the Giants would pass for that reason, especially after Baker. He also only had one year of real production and has had multiple injuries.

I wanted Paye. I was surprised he was still available at #20, and thought the Giants would run to the podium to pick him.
The only confusing part of this pick  
AdamBrag : 9/17/2021 8:09 pm : link
was that there doesn't appear to be a plan for him, at least yet.

If he's going to get on the field, they are going to need to sit Slayton, who has been really productive. My best guess is that they planned on Toney replacing Shepard. Whoops. Now he's our best receiver.

This team really struggles evaluating talent, even their own players.
Gonna make eli apple pick  
rdt288 : 9/17/2021 8:54 pm : link
Look good.

This guy won’t contribute. Love to be wrong.
RE: .  
Red Right Hand : 9/17/2021 9:05 pm : link
In comment 15374796 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Do you remember at the draft the draft room camera appeared to pick up an argument between Gettleman and a couple people in the room (including Judge)?

To have been a fly on the wall...
Whatever that was, seemed that a gloating Judge won it and a clearly frustrated Gettleman lost.
How the fuck was this guy  
SomeFan : 9/17/2021 11:21 pm : link
our number 1 pick? Seems like a bad panic pick to me.
RE: writing  
armstead98 : 9/17/2021 11:35 pm : link
In comment 15374915 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
off a player who has not yet been able to show what he can do for valid reasons is foolish.


Bad start for the kid but this is the right take
.  
Banks : 9/17/2021 11:54 pm : link
as bad as this write up is, the site that this snippet is from still had him as the 33rd ranked player in the draft and ahead of the marshall and moore by a fair amount.
 
christian : 9/18/2021 12:18 am : link
The Giants obviously aren’t writing him off, for the simple facts:

1) he’s really cheap for the next four years
2) moving him would actually cost more than keeping him

I think he’s a really talented, bright kid. But he just keeps saying and doing stupid stuff. As the last ultra talented WR the Giants had learned, that can really get in the way.
pettis  
dslayton86 : 9/18/2021 1:04 am : link
Quote:
So they took the deal and drafted Florida receiver Kadarius Toney, who might not be on the level of Smith or his Alabama teammate Jaylen Waddle, but as Chris Pettit, the Giants director of college scouting said, “He was close enough.”

Taken from an article after Day 1, so sounds like Pettit was perhaps influential in the pick.

I too really want Toney to shut up and stop saying dumb shit. You practically haven't practiced since you were drafted and now you want to be a diva 2 weeks into your rookie season. It makes me sick. I can't believe they picked him, essentially a gadget player that they are incapable of using properly anyway, who also had red flags on the field and off.
RE: pettis  
dslayton86 : 9/18/2021 1:06 am : link
In comment 15375097 dslayton86 said:
Quote:


Quote:


So they took the deal and drafted Florida receiver Kadarius Toney, who might not be on the level of Smith or his Alabama teammate Jaylen Waddle, but as Chris Pettit, the Giants director of college scouting said, “He was close enough.”


Taken from an article after Day 1, so sounds like Pettit was perhaps influential in the pick.

I too really want Toney to shut up and stop saying dumb shit. You practically haven't practiced since you were drafted and now you want to be a diva 2 weeks into your rookie season. It makes me sick. I can't believe they picked him, essentially a gadget player that they are incapable of using properly anyway, who also had red flags on the field and off.

I'm sold on pre-season/training camp reports alone that I would take Elijah Moore and Bateman IN A SECOND over Toney.
It still baffles me…  
Brown_Hornet : 9/18/2021 1:29 am : link
…That BBI thinks that JJ is running the show and truly calling the shots with regards to personnel and at the same time when the collective does not like a player acquisition suddenly JJ had nothing to do with it and DG is to blame.

I don’t say this as a way to defend or criticize either one only that I find it somewhat baffling.
RE: Battled immaturity  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/18/2021 7:41 am : link
In comment 15374762 solarmike said:
Quote:
Nice marriage of words.

In this case, so far, it would seem that immaturity is winning the battle.
I was surprised at the time  
jeff57 : 9/18/2021 7:49 am : link
They didn’t take Kwity Paye, who went to the Colts with next pick. I understand what they were trying to do on the field, but his off the field questions made the pick too big of a risk.
One thing to think about is that Sterling Shepard, who's a mature and  
Ira : 9/18/2021 7:54 am : link
responsible player, is also in the wide receiver group. It would be nice if he took Toney under his wing.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/18/2021 8:01 am : link
Not writing him off, but its been an inauspicious start. Also, doesn't help that Garrett seems to have no clue how to use him.
RE: It still baffles me…  
Banks : 9/18/2021 9:47 am : link
In comment 15375105 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
…That BBI thinks that JJ is running the show and truly calling the shots with regards to personnel and at the same time when the collective does not like a player acquisition suddenly JJ had nothing to do with it and DG is to blame.

I don’t say this as a way to defend or criticize either one only that I find it somewhat baffling.

lol, I think the same, but that has always been the case with whatever the current regime's whipping boy is. In the Coughlin era, it was Gilbride. If Eli did well, it was Coughlin's offense. If he did poorly, it was Gilbride's and suddenly people became arborists ranting about trimming trees
RE: Boylhart had him as his highest rated wide receiver  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/18/2021 11:33 am : link
In comment 15374795 Ira said:
Quote:
. Link - ( New Window )



One interesting point from Boylhart was to use Toney like Christian Mcafferey. Don't make him just a receiver, play to his strengths. Have him return kicks and play out of the backfield. I wonder if this is how they see him, would make sense because Shep is in the slot. A little like Curtis Samuel.
RE: RE: RE: If there is any lingering doubt...  
Matt M. : 9/18/2021 4:21 pm : link
In comment 15374810 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15374794 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


In comment 15374786 bw in dc said:


Quote:


who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.



The only thing that makes me question that is KTs special teams experience



While special teams are an important element of the game, I really don't want my high first round investment playing too many special teams plays. I want them playing bigger roles on the offense or defense. And quickly.

Special teams needs should be solved in the later rounds.

I liked KT's talent before the draft. But with only one quality year of production at UF, plus the off the field challenges, taking him in the first round was a stretch.
The thing with ST is that's the easiest way to at least get the ball in his hands a few times a game where there is little to think about. But, instead, we have Board as KR and Peppers as PR. If he isn't even returning kicks, then it makes his selection even more questionable.
RE: If there is any lingering doubt...  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/18/2021 4:27 pm : link
In comment 15374786 bw in dc said:
Quote:
who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.


Cmon...if there was a player that had DG written all over him it was Paye and if one did for Judge was Toney considering his love of all things SEC. I'm sure you were saying the same thing predraft - that it was going to be Paye because of DG, even at the expense of Smith. This is being disingenuous based on the data.
RE: RE: If there is any lingering doubt...  
Producer : 9/18/2021 4:30 pm : link
In comment 15375629 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15374786 bw in dc said:


Quote:


who is still in command of the draft hopefully this selection of KT clears up any doubt.

Because this KT selection has Gettleman all over it - forcing a higher pick on a questionable player.



Cmon...if there was a player that had DG written all over him it was Paye and if one did for Judge was Toney considering his love of all things SEC. I'm sure you were saying the same thing predraft - that it was going to be Paye because of DG, even at the expense of Smith. This is being disingenuous based on the data.


I kind of agree. I don't see KT as a Gettleman pick. I have no real opinion who drove the selection but Paye or Lattisaw would seem to be DG guys.
I Keep things simple  
Grizz99 : 9/19/2021 9:42 am : link
And reference my prejudices..don't draft guys with rings in their nose. CV
What I don't understand is why Toney is not the kick and punt returner  
GeofromNJ : 9/19/2021 10:28 am : link
now. This is supposedly one area in which he excels. Is he too dumb to know how to read his blockers on a kick return or too dumb to know when and when not to call for a fair catch?
RE: What I don't understand is why Toney is not the kick and punt returner  
Matt M. : 9/19/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15376005 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
now. This is supposedly one area in which he excels. Is he too dumb to know how to read his blockers on a kick return or too dumb to know when and when not to call for a fair catch?
This is my question exactly. It's not like we have a league leading return game and this should be a relatively easy way to get the ball in his hands a few times a game.
clearly a bad pick  
bc4life : 9/19/2021 12:33 pm : link
based on compelling evidence of two games
Right now, I think him getting next o nothing  
Matt M. : 9/19/2021 12:35 pm : link
is more a condemnation of the coaching staff than anything else. If he is as dynamic a player as they say and (and thought based on draft slot), then the coaches have to find at least a few ways a game to get the ball in his hands.
RE: .  
djm : 9/19/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15374767 Walnut said:
Quote:
I think it's clear Tony was forced on Judge by someone, maybe Mara or Graham. He is literally the last type of player you would think Judge would draft.


You most definitely do not know this. Matter of fact if anything it’s probably safe to assume judge did push for this player, if anything.
He does look like a DG pick  
Ron Johnson : 9/20/2021 9:29 am : link
and that's because of what he put on tape. For all the questioning of KT going on now, go re-watch his tape from Florida. It's pretty obvious why they picked him.
RE: He does look like a DG pick  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2021 9:34 am : link
In comment 15377340 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
and that's because of what he put on tape. For all the questioning of KT going on now, go re-watch his tape from Florida. It's pretty obvious why they picked him.


I’m still bullish on the guy tbh. I think he’s a tremendous weapons to have in the read option and RPO. He’s the one WR we have in RPO that can break the tackle as WR and take it to house. Also can put him in backfield in the read option when Saquon needs breather. Hoping with 10 days he’s ready to go and see saw drives. Throwing him out there 1 play at a time is moronic (and I think they realized that right away)
Its actually hard to tell what Gettleman likes (besides himself)  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2021 9:39 am : link
He seemed to like 300 pound run stopping DLs. But then he let DT and Hill go. He also seems like like investing in DBs.

He says he likes OL, but we haven't really seen that. He doesn't seem to value pass rush, particularly from the edge.

Toney doesn't really match with the image that Gettleman tries to project. But when you look at what he actually does, it all seems kind of random. Its not easy to find a theme or a plan.
Jerry  
cosmicj : 9/20/2021 10:58 am : link
Yes, I have a similar view. There are credible reports that DG loved Herbert and Wirfs pre draft. Neither is on the team.

I think player acquisition is clearly a community effort and it’s a shambolic mess.
Yeah its tough to figure  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2021 11:23 am : link
I'm not even trying to be critical on this point - just trying to figure out what the FO values and what they want to be.

The committee idea is a good hypothesis because there does not seem to be any type of consistent vision or priorities.
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