I remember Coughlin starring Mara down in that press conference when Coughlin was fired. Our best coach second only to possibly Parcells was surprised and angry with Mara in 2015. I sided with TC. I dont think the organization can comeback very quickly from the stupidity of the ownership. In pro sports teams, by quickly, I mean I have seen stupid owners make big bad decisions that cost decades of bottom dwelling.
I knew the GM should have been fired, not TC. I think the ownership has bad judgment. We were lucky to win 2 superbowls in this millennium. Our current GM seems to have a big ego and has made some unconventional decisions that have not panned out, so he should be on the hot seat. I do think Jones is an interesting specimen with impressive physical talent, but not sure Garrett and he are really a good tandem. Im not sure what the deal is, but I would say 6 wins would be their ceiling and this season could be ugly by October. FIRE MARA!
Yep, when he lost that opening season game to the Cowboys, it was time to move on.
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fired two years earlier. He was awful since right after SB 46. Team was ill prepared, often out coached.
Yep, when he lost that opening season game to the Cowboys, it was time to move on.
Coughlin was flat out awful his last three years. Bad prep, bad game management, bad personnel decisions. Get the rose colored glasses off. He was as bad a Shurmur but had the benefit of people remembering 2 super bowl wins.
The cupboard was bare when Gettleman was brought on board. plus he had a bad lockerroom and what talent he had had to jettisoned.
Everyone endorsed the Judge pick. But i think that's where the problem is and the roster is fine.
I've done the exercise, dialed up the draft history. i don't think anyone has the job that Gettleman has done with late picks. NOONE!
83% of the top fifty picks each year are successful. I think I've read that only 50% of the top ten quarterback picks make it. He is well within those parameters.
Gates, Coughlin, Tao Crowder (255th.pick and last overall), Julian Love, Shane Lemieux, Holmes, Johnson, Darius Slayton, Matt (still unproven) Piert, that's an extraordinary group over three years with many coming from the absolute end of the draft and beyond (Gates wasn't even drafted).
That tells me the problem isn't with the scouting or draft picks.
And you can do the right thing and not have it work out. Maybe that's the case with Joe Judge. Hiring a head coach is inherently risky. Successful co ordinators often don't work out; coaches that once were successful change, or profited from circumstances and don't work out.
In maybe the most competitive of all businesses, the NY Giants have won two superbowls in fifteen years. New England and the Pitts Steelers have done better and I think that's it.
This roster is darn good. if Judge can't make it, we'll have a new coach next year and he'll inherit a good roster and two top ten picks.
The Giants are in this mess because of a lack of planning. Every decision since Gettleman was brought in was bad, the organizational vision was awful:
1. Take a RB at #2 and try to win again with Eli.
2. Failure to build an OL to win with an aging QB.
3. Although I had no issues with the trade at the time, JPP had a lot left.
4. Retain Eli in 2019 and reach for Jones.
If the big plan was to win with Eli why not give Eli/DG/Shurmur 2018 & 2019 to either win or everyone goes? Then draft the new QB in 2019 with a new GM and coach.
Just no plan. They are winging it as they go. Nothing has changed from the end of the Reese tenure, DG has just been an extension of it.
No, he isn’t. He has a supervisory role with a fancy title. The heads of college and pro scouting were hired by and report directly to Dave Gettkeman. Those three are who is in charge of personnel.
with Reese. Reese should never have been allowed to stay on.
The Giants are in this mess because of a lack of planning. Every decision since Gettleman was brought in was bad, the organizational vision was awful:
1. Take a RB at #2 and try to win again with Eli.
2. Failure to build an OL to win with an aging QB.
3. Although I had no issues with the trade at the time, JPP had a lot left.
4. Retain Eli in 2019 and reach for Jones.
If the big plan was to win with Eli why not give Eli/DG/Shurmur 2018 & 2019 to either win or everyone goes? Then draft the new QB in 2019 with a new GM and coach.
Just no plan. They are winging it as they go. Nothing has changed from the end of the Reese tenure, DG has just been an extension of it.
It's almost as if, pick one or more of the following:
1) Gettleman and Reese came from the same outdated "Giants Way" of thinking - Gettleman is just better at saying the right thing to the fans (or, given the poster above harping on Reese's race, Gettleman is the right race). As a result, they will make somewhat similar decisions*.
2) Chris Mara is the one truly running the show and Gettleman and Reese were just the guys put out in front. At the very least, we functionally have 2 GMs. Chris Mara got his current position in 2012 - how has our personnel looked since then?
3) Our scouts are so terrible that it doesn't matter who the GM is, they are working with terrible information
* - Though I think even at his worst, I don't think Reese would've picked Barkley #2 overall. He would've gone with Bradley Chubb or Josh Allen from the physical numbers he had (assuming Mara would have allowed him to go QB at that point)
2012 D David Wilson, Reuben Randle, Jayron Holsey, Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants, David Kuhn
2013 D Justin Pugh, Jonathan Hankins, Damantre Moore, Ryan Nassib, Cooper Taylor, Eric Herman, Michael Cox
2014 D OBJ, Weston Richburg, Jay Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Behre, Devon Kennard, Bennet Jackson
How he was not able to get more out of this tremendous talent provided in mind boggling. Look at all this talent and the impact they had on the NFL.
2012 D David Wilson, Reuben Randle, Jayron Holsey, Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants, David Kuhn
2013 D Justin Pugh, Jonathan Hankins, Damantre Moore, Ryan Nassib, Cooper Taylor, Eric Herman, Michael Cox
2014 D OBJ, Weston Richburg, Jay Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Behre, Devon Kennard, Bennet Jackson
How he was not able to get more out of this tremendous talent provided in mind boggling. Look at all this talent and the impact they had on the NFL.
Awful. And to think they actually put work into scouting and analyzing that these were the best players to draft. Years of getting basically nothing from the college ranks.
Because for whatever reason, Mara had EA run the hiring show & he did a solid for an old friend in DG.
The cupboard was bare when Gettleman was brought on board. plus he had a bad lockerroom and what talent he had had to jettisoned.
Everyone endorsed the Judge pick. But i think that's where the problem is and the roster is fine.
I've done the exercise, dialed up the draft history. i don't think anyone has the job that Gettleman has done with late picks. NOONE!
83% of the top fifty picks each year are successful. I think I've read that only 50% of the top ten quarterback picks make it. He is well within those parameters.
Gates, Coughlin, Tao Crowder (255th.pick and last overall), Julian Love, Shane Lemieux, Holmes, Johnson, Darius Slayton, Matt (still unproven) Piert, that's an extraordinary group over three years with many coming from the absolute end of the draft and beyond (Gates wasn't even drafted).
That tells me the problem isn't with the scouting or draft picks.
And you can do the right thing and not have it work out. Maybe that's the case with Joe Judge. Hiring a head coach is inherently risky. Successful co ordinators often don't work out; coaches that once were successful change, or profited from circumstances and don't work out.
In maybe the most competitive of all businesses, the NY Giants have won two superbowls in fifteen years. New England and the Pitts Steelers have done better and I think that's it.
This roster is darn good. if Judge can't make it, we'll have a new coach next year and he'll inherit a good roster and two top ten picks.
A nice, rational argument. Just don't include Tae Crowder. He's not an NFL starting linebacker.
Held onto TC and Reese too long, then went with the half measure of letting one go and keeping the other instead of cleaning house. Just kept the organization in neutral for a few years.
Then GM search that netted Gettleman would be hilarious if I wasn't a fan of the team. You can't argue with the record, and he was so excited to get "an adult in the room" with Shurmur. Hes now on year 4 of his first priority and its going fucking *swell*. Gettleman has been awful and even his most ardent defenders are nowhere to be found lately.
I thought they stumbled into the right hire with Judge but I don't know how you watch the product they put out the last week and still feel any sort of confidence.
I don't know about worst, but in a sadly ironic twist Mara is the biggest barrier to success this team has. And there's no getting rid of him.
Evolve or die. Unless you can find a job with NYG.
He has meddled in the most consequential decisions this org has faced in the past decade, the biggest being how and when to bench Eli Manning. Plus he is too involved in deciding which QB to select.
is this a serious post? Hard cap means he spends no more than any other team. As an owner, he's very involved with the biggest decisions (who to hire as coach and GM) and he's fucked that up quite a few times.
The Giants Way has always been strong defense with pass rushers and linebacker play, complemented with a strong running game and vertical passing. Even when it was Fassel the defense led the way with Strahan, Hammer, Sehorn, Sparks etc. The Giants since 2013 have had none of that except a few Odell plays, and this is a team with no pass rushers and no running game.
I kept it pretty simple but's that's really the nutshell. Mara changes his mind every 3 years so we end up with McAdoo, Shurmur, etc.
That's a good summary. It's easy to forget about the stadium. What a horrible "new" facility. Zero personality.
These are the posts that piss me off so much. Reese was trash? Such a brutal take.
This is pitiful
That is when the meddling started imo.
2013: scapegoat Gilbride
2014: scapegoat Fewell
2015: scapegoat Coughlin
2017: scapegoat Reese/McAdoo
All to choose a GM who was in the building prior.
This is pitiful
You’ve come to that conclusion awfully quick. Let’s see how the rest of the season shakes out. Here are the records of each after 18 games coaching:
Shurmur: 5-13
Judge: 6-12
Shurmur went on to a 2-11 start in 2019 which included a 9 game losing streak after being 2-2. That is why he was fired. Let’s see if this year includes a similar stretch of losing before making absolute statements.
Shurmur: 5-13
Judge: 6-12
Shurmur went on to a 2-11 start in 2019 which included a 9 game losing streak after being 2-2. That is why he was fired. Let’s see if this year includes a similar stretch of losing before making absolute statements.
Well,that's my opinion.This guy Judge is one of the worst coaches I've seen here.
To me the bigger issue was the Giants seemed to shift away from being a physical team that wins the lines with big play potential. Who made this decision?
After Eli carried a older diminished OL who were all great Warriors look at that 2012 draft again. Some would not have liked it but I think the wise choice would have been to cut the OL and diminished DL, take the cap hits and very heavily draft replacements in 2012, 2013 and it should have started in 2011.
Not many teams better over that time frame...
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and doesn’t meddle in football decisions. There are many worse. Do some of you even know what a team owner does?
is this a serious post? Hard cap means he spends no more than any other team. As an owner, he's very involved with the biggest decisions (who to hire as coach and GM) and he's fucked that up quite a few times.
You are aware that operating expenses exist beyond player salaries, yes?
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In comment 15375281 Chris in Philly said:
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and doesn’t meddle in football decisions. There are many worse. Do some of you even know what a team owner does?
is this a serious post? Hard cap means he spends no more than any other team. As an owner, he's very involved with the biggest decisions (who to hire as coach and GM) and he's fucked that up quite a few times.
You are aware that operating expenses exist beyond player salaries, yes?
Is the opex differential due to operating in the NY market?
Based on the caliber of coaches behind Judge, it looks like they pay up for coaching. But I'm not sure if the analytics team/scouting system is beefed up relative to everyone else.
And I genuinely don't know. I don't have that insight.
Fantastic post.
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In comment 15375281 Chris in Philly said:
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and doesn’t meddle in football decisions. There are many worse. Do some of you even know what a team owner does?
is this a serious post? Hard cap means he spends no more than any other team. As an owner, he's very involved with the biggest decisions (who to hire as coach and GM) and he's fucked that up quite a few times.
You are aware that operating expenses exist beyond player salaries, yes?
yup, the 4 computer guys they recently hired really shows Mara's commitment to rounding out the football operations staff. But since you brought it up - where's the evidence Mara/Tisch are outspending their counterparts?
And of course, there's the pesky matter of the last 10 years where several major decisions have been botched spectacularly.
My personal opinion is Ross had a very big influence on Reese. Reese learned under Ernie. Ernie as a great LT and then you can fill in the rest.
2004 Draft Eli, Snee
2005 Draft Webster, Tuck, Jacobs Offseason McKenzie, Plax, Pierce
Tom was the influencer of being a physical team. Snee and McKenzie are not EA type investments. Plax, big physical threat who could run block. Jacobs, big, fast and physical player.
Again, I think you have to consider the shift in philosophy when the downturn happened.
Not many teams better over that time frame...
What was John Mara's role in any of those championships?
He inherited a team with a GM, coach, and QB. The transition to the next GM was already getting underway. The only thing you can say about Mara is that he didn't fire Coughlin after 2006.
The only time Mara was forced into action, he punted on doing an actual GM search and just let the guy who was GM when took over make the hire. They botched the end of Eli's career. Botched two coaching decisions. Botched the GM decision.
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In comment 15375291 Enzo said:
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In comment 15375281 Chris in Philly said:
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and doesn’t meddle in football decisions. There are many worse. Do some of you even know what a team owner does?
is this a serious post? Hard cap means he spends no more than any other team. As an owner, he's very involved with the biggest decisions (who to hire as coach and GM) and he's fucked that up quite a few times.
You are aware that operating expenses exist beyond player salaries, yes?
yup, the 4 computer guys they recently hired really shows Mara's commitment to rounding out the football operations staff. But since you brought it up - where's the evidence Mara/Tisch are outspending their counterparts?
And of course, there's the pesky matter of the last 10 years where several major decisions have been botched spectacularly.
Complain about the stadium all you want but it is one of only two in the country that were fully privately financed. They have a huge coaching staff. Money has never gotten in the way of signing a player the coaches or GM wants. Whether you think said player is worth the money or a good signing is irrelevant. Anything the front office or coaching staff need, they get. Do you have any understanding about how some teams operate?
"Sept. 7, 2010
It’s the gift that keeps on taking. The old Giants Stadium, demolished to make way for New Meadowlands Stadium, still carries about $110 million in debt, or nearly $13 for every New Jersey resident, even though it is now a parking lot."
Link - ( New Window )
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fired two years earlier. He was awful since right after SB 46. Team was ill prepared, often out coached.
Yep, when he lost that opening season game to the Cowboys, it was time to move on.
All three processes have been shambolic failures. There's not other way to put it.
- Worst team in the NFL the past five years
- 0 days over .500 since the start of the 2017 season
The arrow is not pointing up. This is an organization in a deep state of crisis.
My personal opinion is Ross had a very big influence on Reese. Reese learned under Ernie. Ernie as a great LT and then you can fill in the rest.
2004 Draft Eli, Snee
2005 Draft Webster, Tuck, Jacobs Offseason McKenzie, Plax, Pierce
Tom was the influencer of being a physical team. Snee and McKenzie are not EA type investments. Plax, big physical threat who could run block. Jacobs, big, fast and physical player.
Again, I think you have to consider the shift in philosophy when the downturn happened.
This is spot on.
2) I loved Coughlin, but agreed with his firing at the time. What I did not agree with was retaining Reese. And this is 100% Mara. Hell, in the press conference, Mara even said it was the personnel, but he kept the GM. You could argue that the results on the field were bad for a few years and 2 SBs bought Coughlin thr benefit of the doubt. But, bad play, in my opinion, was directly correlated to Reese ignoring the OL for too long. They were no longer able to run their long successful offense. Gilbride didnt forget how to coach. He no lo get had the ability to protect his QB long enough for his plays to develop. He said as much, but "retired" rather than Reese putting an OL out there.
The decision was move to WCO instead of legitimately building up front. It worked with McAdoo as OC. In retrospect, I think it ilwas heavily dependent on Coughlin's influence on a more of a hybrid. Once McAdoo was HC, the offense was very different.
So, after all that, it wasnt so.much the decision to fire Coughlin, but to keep Reese. Pretty much every decision since has been terrible.
The Giants are in this mess because of a lack of planning. Every decision since Gettleman was brought in was bad, the organizational vision was awful:
1. Take a RB at #2 and try to win again with Eli.
2. Failure to build an OL to win with an aging QB.
3. Although I had no issues with the trade at the time, JPP had a lot left.
4. Retain Eli in 2019 and reach for Jones.
If the big plan was to win with Eli why not give Eli/DG/Shurmur 2018 & 2019 to either win or everyone goes? Then draft the new QB in 2019 with a new GM and coach.
Just no plan. They are winging it as they go. Nothing has changed from the end of the Reese tenure, DG has just been an extension of it.
The last line is my biggest issue. If you were going to rebuild why wouldn't you have just given Reese that chance instead of DG? The infrastructure of the team should have been gutted. If you weren't going to do that, you should have let Reese pick the new QB.
Something is seriously wrong with the fan base on this site. You're all way too obsessed with a perfect football story that you lose sight of the joy you've seen and experienced. You've become so bitter and have zero patience.
IMO the reason why we continuously lose is because we are constantly changing things, no stability. This is driven by a fan base that just wants to tear it all down every season.
I'm so sick of seeing shit like this. 10 years ago BBI was different. To many Giants.com people on here now, Giants twitter has made it worse
If you hate the Giants org so much then go be a fucking Jets fan or go talk to one. They might offer you a little perspective
I can't be the only person on here that feels this way...
I'm going to go lift now while proudly wearing my giants hoody and hat here in Portland, and then go enjoy my day. Keep hating guys...
Next week is Atlanta, bring it on, Lets go Big blue!
I didn't like when he become the arrogant dapper don GM with his sidekick Ross. The two people most responsible for even putting him in this position were the same two he tried for years to blame for his poor drafts.
I am pretty indifferent to DG but I think he would have paired much better with TC than Reese and I am not so sure both TC's and Eli's last years would be more positive.
Something is seriously wrong with the fan base on this site. You're all way too obsessed with a perfect football story that you lose sight of the joy you've seen and experienced. You've become so bitter and have zero patience.
IMO the reason why we continuously lose is because we are constantly changing things, no stability. This is driven by a fan base that just wants to tear it all down every season.
I'm so sick of seeing shit like this. 10 years ago BBI was different. To many Giants.com people on here now, Giants twitter has made it worse
If you hate the Giants org so much then go be a fucking Jets fan or go talk to one. They might offer you a little perspective
I can't be the only person on here that feels this way...
I'm going to go lift now while proudly wearing my giants hoody and hat here in Portland, and then go enjoy my day. Keep hating guys...
Next week is Atlanta, bring it on, Lets go Big blue!
Wanna know who was a pretty bad owner? George M Steinbrenner III. He meddled too much. Then he was banned from baseball for a couple of years, baseball people took over, and he largely sat back and wrote checks after being reinstated. Bam dynasty.
I'd be surprised if DG is the GM next year and I think they'll go outside of the organization.
A low bar, in my opinion.
It's still the smartest, most concise statement I've read on BBI: the Maras don't try to win, they hope to win.
2012 D David Wilson, Reuben Randle, Jayron Holsey, Adrien Robinson, Brandon Mosley, Matt McCants, David Kuhn
2013 D Justin Pugh, Jonathan Hankins, Damantre Moore, Ryan Nassib, Cooper Taylor, Eric Herman, Michael Cox
2014 D OBJ, Weston Richburg, Jay Bromley, Andre Williams, Nat Behre, Devon Kennard, Bennet Jackson
How he was not able to get more out of this tremendous talent provided in mind boggling. Look at all this talent and the impact they had on the NFL.
If you don't think Coughlin had a voice in the draft room, you're kidding yourself.
Reese and Ross allowed the roster to atrophy, but Coughlin was 100% along for that ride.
Something is seriously wrong with the fan base on this site. You're all way too obsessed with a perfect football story that you lose sight of the joy you've seen and experienced. You've become so bitter and have zero patience.
IMO the reason why we continuously lose is because we are constantly changing things, no stability. This is driven by a fan base that just wants to tear it all down every season.
I'm so sick of seeing shit like this. 10 years ago BBI was different. To many Giants.com people on here now, Giants twitter has made it worse
If you hate the Giants org so much then go be a fucking Jets fan or go talk to one. They might offer you a little perspective
I can't be the only person on here that feels this way...
I'm going to go lift now while proudly wearing my giants hoody and hat here in Portland, and then go enjoy my day. Keep hating guys...
Next week is Atlanta, bring it on, Lets go Big blue!
Two Super Bowls? Got there twice?
You're already kind of a joke of a poster, but the fact that you don't know how many Super Bowls the Giants have been to or how many they've won is pretty revealing.
Take a hike.
You are, of course, right about two superbowls in the context you set. It's merely an example of a compulsion to find empowerment through denigration.
A low bar, in my opinion.
It's still the smartest, most concise statement I've read on BBI: the Maras don't try to win, they hope to win.
The whole 'Meaningful football in December' mindset the Maras seem to have...It was/is lame AF.
Something is seriously wrong with the fan base on this site. You're all way too obsessed with a perfect football story that you lose sight of the joy you've seen and experienced. You've become so bitter and have zero patience.
IMO the reason why we continuously lose is because we are constantly changing things, no stability. This is driven by a fan base that just wants to tear it all down every season.
I'm so sick of seeing shit like this. 10 years ago BBI was different. To many Giants.com people on here now, Giants twitter has made it worse
If you hate the Giants org so much then go be a fucking Jets fan or go talk to one. They might offer you a little perspective
I can't be the only person on here that feels this way...
I'm going to go lift now while proudly wearing my giants hoody and hat here in Portland, and then go enjoy my day. Keep hating guys...
Next week is Atlanta, bring it on, Lets go Big blue!
Yep, it moronic to think the Mara's are anywhere near the bottom of the list of owners. Absolutely moronic...
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You people are so fucking jaded that you're trashing the organization that brought the Giants 2 super bowls. Yea I it wasn't perfect but we got there twice!
Something is seriously wrong with the fan base on this site. You're all way too obsessed with a perfect football story that you lose sight of the joy you've seen and experienced. You've become so bitter and have zero patience.
IMO the reason why we continuously lose is because we are constantly changing things, no stability. This is driven by a fan base that just wants to tear it all down every season.
I'm so sick of seeing shit like this. 10 years ago BBI was different. To many Giants.com people on here now, Giants twitter has made it worse
If you hate the Giants org so much then go be a fucking Jets fan or go talk to one. They might offer you a little perspective
I can't be the only person on here that feels this way...
I'm going to go lift now while proudly wearing my giants hoody and hat here in Portland, and then go enjoy my day. Keep hating guys...
Next week is Atlanta, bring it on, Lets go Big blue!
Two Super Bowls? Got there twice?
You're already kind of a joke of a poster, but the fact that you don't know how many Super Bowls the Giants have been to or how many they've won is pretty revealing.
Take a hike.
are you dumb? seriously though? reading comprehension & critical thinking skills not up to par? lol would love to meet ya
Kind of disappointed honestly, like you don't get to come in with that comment with no actual substance to the response.
Also pretty sure I could eat your lunch on multiple levels.
bring it fatboy
Mara was very involved in a lineup change. He then fired McAdoo for some communication failure and some inconsistency in messaging. That’s meddling.
no way.
the fact people are even entertaining this is hilariously pathetic. The Mara's are known league wide as being some of the best ownership in football. They are always at the helm for submitting donations to charity and never fail to spend when its needed. this thread aggravates me
You are, of course, right about two superbowls in the context you set. It's merely an example of a compulsion to find empowerment through denigration.
One of us got banned from the board once before, and it isn't me.
Kind of disappointed honestly, like you don't get to come in with that comment with no actual substance to the response.
Also pretty sure I could eat your lunch on multiple levels.
bring it fatboy
Is that a threat?
What are the Mara's best at in football aside from losing games in the last 4 years?
Please used only data based facts and show your work.