Please learn what other coaches have learned, like Mr Harbaugh in Baltimore. Did you notice what he did with one minute to go in the game? 4th and 1 on their own 43 yard line. He goes for it rather than giving the ball back to Mahomes with one minute left and no timeouts. Do you think Harbaugh cared about KC having no timeouts? Hell no! He knew he had plenty of time to pick up 40 yards in one minute without time outs. Most teams can! Do you think he wanted to see his team lose in the last second with KC getting a FG. Does that sound familiar?
You were willing to let Washington get the ball back with 2 minutes left thinking and hoping your defense would keep them out of FG range. How stupid is that thinking? Your defense hasn’t stopped anyone for two weeks in a row, so why would you think you would do it there? Why was your goal to get Wash to use up their timeouts instead of making it your goal for us to get at least one first down?
In conclusion, I know you are a young coach, but you seriously have to grow up fast. You can’t just play it safe and then let the media blame the defense for not doing their jobs. Please Mr Judge, be special, and go out there and win games for us. Take chances…even if it backfires, we will still support you because we know you played to win, and not to lose.
Sincerely,
Knowledgeable Giant Fans
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but if he goes for it and fails he's getting annihilated by us and the papers.
You are probably right….but like I said, not by [b{knowledgeable Giant fans[/b]. You just can’t play it safe expecting them not to be able to set up for a FG UNLESS YOUR DEFENSE IS THAT GOOD.
Where does one find these mythical creatures?
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if the Giants had been pressing to move the ball by passing and Jones fumbles, or throws a pick, you're memo has a totally different tone.
Come-on... the Giants made WFT burn 2 timeoouts. They ran the clock all the way to the 2:00 warning. They got the go-ahead points. The defense fell flat on their face, not Judge or the offense (in that series). Stop all the holier than thou Monday Morning quarterbacking....
You are not being wise here friend. Do you think Baltimore would have won if they had punted with KC having no timeouts and only one minute? Answer…..NO FRIGGIN WAY.
I think the probabilities are likely very low - something like 25% if I had the guess, so "NO FRIGGIN WAY" isn't close to being true.
I liked what Harbaugh did, put it in Jackson's hands vs. a putrid defense. Not sure he makes the same call against Pittsburgh. Either way a punt wouldn't have been a bad thing. He's got his own top defense that's paid to make plays too.
Good point Chris, but don’t you think our OL was playing well enough, especially in the 2nd half? We were moving the ball pretty easily and I don’t believe we punted in the 2nd half.
I think we all could see, we were mostly playing for the FG to take the lead. Two VERY SAFE CALLS that were not working all game put a lot of pressure on our 3rd down call, which we messed up.
No, I think our OL was doing well enough to have some amount of confidence in them…as was Jones. This was the only time believe we went 3 and kick. Why then?
We played not to win…..rather not to lose.
Jones was running even better against Wash than was Jackson. Why not trust Jones more, much like Harbaugh’s trust last night.
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In comment 15377218 BamaBlue said:
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if the Giants had been pressing to move the ball by passing and Jones fumbles, or throws a pick, you're memo has a totally different tone.
Come-on... the Giants made WFT burn 2 timeoouts. They ran the clock all the way to the 2:00 warning. They got the go-ahead points. The defense fell flat on their face, not Judge or the offense (in that series). Stop all the holier than thou Monday Morning quarterbacking....
You are not being wise here friend. Do you think Baltimore would have won if they had punted with KC having no timeouts and only one minute? Answer…..NO FRIGGIN WAY.
I think the probabilities are likely very low - something like 25% if I had the guess, so "NO FRIGGIN WAY" isn't close to being true.
I liked what Harbaugh did, put it in Jackson's hands vs. a putrid defense. Not sure he makes the same call against Pittsburgh. Either way a punt wouldn't have been a bad thing. He's got his own top defense that's paid to make plays too.
Top defense? Mahomes was shredding them for 343 and 3 TDs. How many times have you seen Mahomes pull out a win in the last drive over the years? Are you honestly telling me you feel Baltimore probably would have won if they had punted? If that is so, then why didn’t Harbaugh punt?
WHY DIDNT HARBAUGH PUNT? Answer- he liked his chances of winning more by taking his chance to get the first down and end it there rather than punt it back to give them one more shot at it.
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Baltimore’s OL he would be like that. These decisions are not made in vacuums.
Good point Chris, but don’t you think our OL was playing well enough, especially in the 2nd half? We were moving the ball pretty easily and I don’t believe we punted in the 2nd half.
I think we all could see, we were mostly playing for the FG to take the lead. Two VERY SAFE CALLS that were not working all game put a lot of pressure on our 3rd down call, which we messed up.
No, I think our OL was doing well enough to have some amount of confidence in them…as was Jones. This was the only time believe we went 3 and kick. Why then?
We played not to win…..rather not to lose.
Jones was running even better against Wash than was Jackson. Why not trust Jones more, much like Harbaugh’s trust last night.
They were playing okay but how many times has he been burned by them? I hated the play calling too but it’s just too different a scenario to make an apples to apples comparison.
As to Judge's situation, the WFT QB was having a good game but had just been picked as well. Don't think Judge made a bad decision by running on first two downs, but would agree somehow using Daniel Jones legs may have been smarter than using Saquon's.
Here’s the thing when comparing this to Judge’s situation. The Ravens have a unicorn at QB. A guy who will find a way to take his Gumby body and get the yards needed for a first down. We have Daniel Jones and a RB who is not good at short yardage, despite too many Giants fans thinking, daftly, he’s as good as Derrick Henry.
Furthermore, the Ravens we’re playing Patrick Mahomes. We were playing Taylor Heinicke. A guy who just thrown a crucial pick in the game. So I could see gambling on Graham and the D to make a stop.
Comparing the two situations does require nuance…
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In comment 15377234 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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but if he goes for it and fails he's getting annihilated by us and the papers.
You are probably right….but like I said, not by [b{knowledgeable Giant fans[/b]. You just can’t play it safe expecting them not to be able to set up for a FG UNLESS YOUR DEFENSE IS THAT GOOD.
Where does one find these mythical creatures?
Lol. You know we have plenty of knowledgeable fans here who would not crucify Judge had he gone for a 4th and one in hopes of ending the game right there.
I think you are right….he seems very old school which does have some benefits but not all.
40 seconds and no time outs is a lot less than you think. Still doable but the percentages aren't what you are making them and that includes the Mahomes factor (who sat almost the entire 4th quarter).
Funny you said this…..I was more intrigued with Jackson when I saw his college film before that draft. Other than Mayfield he was the guy I was hoping we could consider. Of course, we would have traded down a bit and picked up a 1st round pick the next year and could have picked him up around 15 to 25.
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If he had Lamar Jackson
Funny you said this…..I was more intrigued with Jackson when I saw his college film before that draft. Other than Mayfield he was the guy I was hoping we could consider. Of course, we would have traded down a bit and picked up a 1st round pick the next year and could have picked him up around 15 to 25.
Unfortunately this organization isnt that forward thinking. The game is passing them by, in schemes and game management
Here’s the thing when comparing this to Judge’s situation. The Ravens have a unicorn at QB. A guy who will find a way to take his Gumby body and get the yards needed for a first down. We have Daniel Jones and a RB who is not good at short yardage, despite too many Giants fans thinking, daftly, he’s as good as Derrick Henry.
Furthermore, the Ravens we’re playing Patrick Mahomes. We were playing Taylor Heinicke. A guy who just thrown a crucial pick in the game. So I could see gambling on Graham and the D to make a stop.
Comparing the two situations does require nuance…
You are missing the point bw. The Ravens made it their goal to get the first down and end it, keeping their offense off the field.
We made it our goal to use up timeouts and kick a FG.
I agree Mahomes> Heinke, but other than pick, Washington was having their way pretty much all game. As you recall, they went down the field in 2 plays to take the lead before the pick.
So again I ask….is it better to play to win, or play to not lose? Harbaugh played to win and was rewarded for it. We played not to lose and now we are all crying over it.
All 3 plays called was just what Wash needed to have a chance to win, and they did. If you are happy with that, fine. I think most knowledgeable Hiant fans aren’t.
You want to question the play calling on 1st and 2cnd down ok. But, you know, the O line and Barkley get paid to produce, do your job!
You don’t like the calls, got it.
But you lecturing Judge, as if he didn’t understand the situation, is not only disingenuous, but annoying as hell.
Yeah, I suppose you are right. I was even hoping we would pick up a guy like Lamar to be our back up, but it looks like NY has no interest in that kind of athletic guy to be their qb- McCoy and Glennon seem to be it.
You want to question the play calling on 1st and 2cnd down ok. But, you know, the O line and Barkley get paid to produce, do your job!
You don’t like the calls, got it.
But you lecturing Judge, as if he didn’t understand the situation, is not only disingenuous, but annoying as hell.
Apparently he didn’t understand the situation Joe.
Two runs into a stacked defense with a RB who is still recovering shows me he doesn’t understand the situation.
And then the third down pass that was short of the first down marker even if he caught it….please don’t tell me this was Judge being aggressive for the win because that pass wasn’t. A RPO would have been…..
No, I don’t think Judge understood the urgency to get the first down and keep our overwhelmed defense off the field in the last two minutes.
Those 3 plays convinced me…how come they didn’t convince you?
It's just not that hard to get into FG range at the end of the game.
The challenge is that Jones is so mistake prone that I'd imagine Judge would be terrified to put the ball in his hands in a situation like that. He played a very good game, but he can conjure a turnover out of anywhere, so it's a big risk.
This team is going nowhere though, so we might as well put things in Jones hands and see if he can improve.
It's just not that hard to get into FG range at the end of the game.
The challenge is that Jones is so mistake prone that I'd imagine Judge would be terrified to put the ball in his hands in a situation like that. He played a very good game, but he can conjure a turnover out of anywhere, so it's a big risk.
This team is going nowhere though, so we might as well put things in Jones hands and see if he can improve.
You make a very good point here Jerry….how much trust does Judge have in Jones? Like you said, his resume speaks for itself. But, also like you said, might as well see if he could show us he can be trusted. After all, we do have two first round picks next year. Need to know now….
We have not gotten to that promise land thus the trepidation of playing it by the book. We need to win games and build confidence.
For the Washington game at the end it was up to our defense to show up period. It was their fault at the end of the day. Enough excuses. This is football. You win 80+ percent of the time kicking the shit out of the other team. We can kick the shit out of anyone to this point. We’re not physical at the point of attack. Our D still lacks a style of play. X and Carter are busts in my opinion.
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seem like they are out of the 1980s. He needs to understand the analytics fast or else he’s going to keep costing us wins.
I think you are right….he seems very old school which does have some benefits but not all.
Interesting observation which might explain why he "blew away" the Maras and Gettleman in the coaching interview.
If this organization isn't confident in a third year QB to make plays in that situation, why would they pay him the going rate for QB's (30 million plus) after his rookie contract runs out?
You can't have it both ways...either Jones is the guy in crunch time, or he's not. If they don't think he is, might as well trade Jones to Miami or someone else for draft choices.
Golladay, Shep, healthy Saquon (it takes time to recover from his ACL), Engram (All Pro last year)
The above 4 ain’t pretty shabby.
Unless you think 5’9” MBrown is better than Golladay, and Watkins is better than Shep, and Andrews is better than All pro, Engram, and Tyson Williams is better than a healthy Saquon? And….I still believe Andrew Thomas, who has played very well our first two games and the second half of last year, is not better than their LT, I forgot his name.
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I wouldn't trade for straight up for same position on the Giants. Aggression is good, but it's a whole helluva lot easier when your team is actually talented across the board and has pushed the opposing defensive line around for the better part of the fourth quarter.
Golladay, Shep, healthy Saquon (it takes time to recover from his ACL), Engram (All Pro last year)
The above 4 ain’t pretty shabby.
Unless you think 5’9” MBrown is better than Golladay, and Watkins is better than Shep, and Andrews is better than All pro, Engram, and Tyson Williams is better than a healthy Saquon? And….I still believe Andrew Thomas, who has played very well our first two games and the second half of last year, is not better than their LT, I forgot his name.
1. Pro Bowls are not All-Pro. Two very different things.
2. Yes Mark Andrews is better than Evan Engram.
3. The ravens left tackle is Ronnie Stanley. He is a lot better than Andrew Thomas. A lot. He has an actual All-pro team win.
Some QBs - and I think Jones is one - are really awkward on slides and it creates a fumble risk. I could be wrong about this, but I don't recall him doing a smooth slide.
Maybe its a baseball thing, but you'd think Jones would've played baseball. Some guys slide very naturally and some crumble into an awkward heap.
So again I ask….is it better to play to win, or play to not lose? Harbaugh played to win and was rewarded for it. We played not to lose and now we are all crying over it.
All 3 plays called was just what Wash needed to have a chance to win, and they did. If you are happy with that, fine. I think most knowledgeable Hiant fans aren’t.
I totally get your POV. But you have to consider the differences in talent. If we were playing the Chiefs and Mahomes, I'm all in with you.
But we weren't. And despite how well Heinicke had done, I trusted Graham could get it done on that last series. Once Heinicke cracked the series before with the INT, I thought the D would put the nail in the coffin.
So I think we played to win.
Yeah but that's a very makeable kick in the NFL so as far as strategy is concerned it was a failure.
Come-on... the Giants made WFT burn 2 timeoouts. They ran the clock all the way to the 2:00 warning. They got the go-ahead points. The defense fell flat on their face, not Judge or the offense (in that series). Stop all the holier than thou Monday Morning quarterbacking....
It was idiotic to not let Jones make a play the way that he had gashed them. Game was over with a TD (first down really). End the game like a real franchise would. See Ravens, Baltimore last night.
If you don't have the confidence in your QB to win the game for you we have bigger problems. But based on his play Thursday he earned the opportunity to win the game. It is not 1994 anymore. Good teams score TDs and play for them, not timeout burning.
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if the Giants had been pressing to move the ball by passing and Jones fumbles, or throws a pick, you're memo has a totally different tone.
Come-on... the Giants made WFT burn 2 timeoouts. They ran the clock all the way to the 2:00 warning. They got the go-ahead points. The defense fell flat on their face, not Judge or the offense (in that series). Stop all the holier than thou Monday Morning quarterbacking....
It was idiotic to not let Jones make a play the way that he had gashed them. Game was over with a TD (first down really). End the game like a real franchise would. See Ravens, Baltimore last night.
If you don't have the confidence in your QB to win the game for you we have bigger problems. But based on his play Thursday he earned the opportunity to win the game. It is not 1994 anymore. Good teams score TDs and play for them, not timeout burning.
That is how I see it too. When do you start trusting Jones is a valid question. Like you said, he played very good that game, why not trust him now to make plays to win it now, much like Harbaugh with Jackson.
I know the rebuttal here- Jones is not Jackson, he fumbles too much when running. Honestly, I don’t know how many fumbles Jackson has had in his two-three years of playing, but as I recall, the second half of last year and the two games this year, I think Jones has fumbled maybe two times in those 10 games. And if you noticed Thursday, he was holding onto the ball before he got hit pretty much all the time. I can’t imagine why you could not let him RPO in that last series. He didn’t fumble all game….when do you start to say, “I trust you…go,out there and get us a first down.”
I noticed the NFL came out with a story today saying “Baltimore is aggressive; Giants maybe too passive.” I agree- one is playing to win, the other is playing not to lose.
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So again I ask….is it better to play to win, or play to not lose? Harbaugh played to win and was rewarded for it. We played not to lose and now we are all crying over it.
All 3 plays called was just what Wash needed to have a chance to win, and they did. If you are happy with that, fine. I think most knowledgeable Hiant fans aren’t.
I totally get your POV. But you have to consider the differences in talent. If we were playing the Chiefs and Mahomes, I'm all in with you.
But we weren't. And despite how well Heinicke had done, I trusted Graham could get it done on that last series. Once Heinicke cracked the series before with the INT, I thought the D would put the nail in the coffin.
So I think we played to win.
I can understand your confidence in Graham to rally the troops one final time. Based on last year and all the new guys we brought in who were going to make us even better…..But I bet you were taken back when you saw how cautiously he played that series. I don’t believe we blitzed at all and he still had a soft zone defense in the secondary. Adoree was the only guy I saw blanketing his man. Bradberry and Holmes didn’t.
When you only need 40 yards and today’s kickers can make them from 55 pretty routinely, you are asking your defense to do a lot, especially with two whole minutes left, not one….two!
I know Heineke is no Mahomes but Giant fans said the same about Teddy, and look at what he did to us. Bw, I think you will agree with me here- every opposing qb has circled the NY Giants on their schedule for this season.
If Jones fails, let him fail playing NFL football, not playing 1 arm tied behind his back.
If he throws too many ints, then it just means he's not a starter. Plenty of QBs washout. But the only thing you get playing this way is frustration.
If Jones fails, let him fail playing NFL football, not playing 1 arm tied behind his back.
If he throws too many ints, then it just means he's not a starter. Plenty of QBs washout. But the only thing you get playing this way is frustration.
I agree. Many think Jones is being evaluated on this year to see if we should draft another qb in round one next year, so might as well give him a chance to show us what he can do. Besides, most Giant fans would agree, this is not our year to compete for anything more than winning the “supposedly weak” East.
Coaches need help and tech to get these things right. The Giants don't know how to build out this tech, clearly. Sadly JJ is a victim of circumstance on this one
I can understand your confidence in Graham to rally the troops one final time. Based on last year and all the new guys we brought in who were going to make us even better…..But I bet you were taken back when you saw how cautiously he played that series. I don’t believe we blitzed at all and he still had a soft zone defense in the secondary. Adoree was the only guy I saw blanketing his man. Bradberry and Holmes didn’t.
When you only need 40 yards and today’s kickers can make them from 55 pretty routinely, you are asking your defense to do a lot, especially with two whole minutes left, not one….two!
I know Heineke is no Mahomes but Giant fans said the same about Teddy, and look at what he did to us. Bw, I think you will agree with me here- every opposing qb has circled the NY Giants on their schedule for this season.
Well, the Broncos had a commanding lead in our game. So it's not the same situation.
Look, in hindsight you are probably right. We should have gone for the jugular. But I can only give you my line of thinking and felt good about Graham being better than Heinicke. Before that drive, he's NEVER led a game-winning drive. Zero!
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I can understand your confidence in Graham to rally the troops one final time. Based on last year and all the new guys we brought in who were going to make us even better…..But I bet you were taken back when you saw how cautiously he played that series. I don’t believe we blitzed at all and he still had a soft zone defense in the secondary. Adoree was the only guy I saw blanketing his man. Bradberry and Holmes didn’t.
When you only need 40 yards and today’s kickers can make them from 55 pretty routinely, you are asking your defense to do a lot, especially with two whole minutes left, not one….two!
I know Heineke is no Mahomes but Giant fans said the same about Teddy, and look at what he did to us. Bw, I think you will agree with me here- every opposing qb has circled the NY Giants on their schedule for this season.
Well, the Broncos had a commanding lead in our game. So it's not the same situation.
Look, in hindsight you are probably right. We should have gone for the jugular. But I can only give you my line of thinking and felt good about Graham being better than Heinicke. Before that drive, he's NEVER led a game-winning drive. Zero!
Bw,
Just to be clear….when I mentioned Teddy, it was to remind you that even a “mediocre” qb like Teddy shredded the Giants secondary…when even most here thought that could be done. So, let’s review….
Teddy, mediocre qb, shreds Giant defense
Heinecke, mediocre qb, shreds Giant defense
Do you see a pattern here? You don’t even have to be a top tier qb in order to shred the Giants secondary.
My point being….we should not assume our defense could stop anyone from here on out….unless we see a vast improvement as the season progresses. Therefore, play to win…by that I mean, don’t worry about our opponents using their time outs….rather, worry about us giving the ball back to them.
If we have that attitude, we certainly won’t be running tentative Saquon into a very good stacked line for two plays just to kill two TOs. Instead, we will play it just like we played it all game.
That’s my point.
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I wouldn't trade for straight up for same position on the Giants. Aggression is good, but it's a whole helluva lot easier when your team is actually talented across the board and has pushed the opposing defensive line around for the better part of the fourth quarter.
Golladay, Shep, healthy Saquon (it takes time to recover from his ACL), Engram (All Pro last year)
The above 4 ain’t pretty shabby.
Unless you think 5’9” MBrown is better than Golladay, and Watkins is better than Shep, and Andrews is better than All pro, Engram, and Tyson Williams is better than a healthy Saquon? And….I still believe Andrew Thomas, who has played very well our first two games and the second half of last year, is not better than their LT, I forgot his name.
Respectfully disagree.
Andrews is clearly better than Engram. Better all around tight end and just better straight up.
Ty'son Williams is their 3rd string running back. JK Dobbins is the starter. Even so, Ty'sonn has performed better to date than post injury Saquon.
You might have a case at receiver with Golladay vs. Brown, but it would be interesting to see what Brown's numbers would be if he was paired with a passer like Stafford. So far Golladay has not been that guy yet.
Sterling has had two great games so far by his standards, because his standard is an average slot guy who isn't particularly elusive. He's been the only guy with reliable hands here for a few years so he is overrated by Giants fans. No one fears him and we'll see how it goes against better teams.
In any case, my point still stands: I would trade the Giants offensive personnel for the Ravens offensive personnel and its easy to be aggressive when your offensive line punishes people week in week out.
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In comment 15377444 widmerseyebrow said:
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I wouldn't trade for straight up for same position on the Giants. Aggression is good, but it's a whole helluva lot easier when your team is actually talented across the board and has pushed the opposing defensive line around for the better part of the fourth quarter.
Golladay, Shep, healthy Saquon (it takes time to recover from his ACL), Engram (All Pro last year)
The above 4 ain’t pretty shabby.
Unless you think 5’9” MBrown is better than Golladay, and Watkins is better than Shep, and Andrews is better than All pro, Engram, and Tyson Williams is better than a healthy Saquon? And….I still believe Andrew Thomas, who has played very well our first two games and the second half of last year, is not better than their LT, I forgot his name.
Respectfully disagree.
Andrews is clearly better than Engram. Better all around tight end and just better straight up.
Ty'son Williams is their 3rd string running back. JK Dobbins is the starter. Even so, Ty'sonn has performed better to date than post injury Saquon.
You might have a case at receiver with Golladay vs. Brown, but it would be interesting to see what Brown's numbers would be if he was paired with a passer like Stafford. So far Golladay has not been that guy yet.
Sterling has had two great games so far by his standards, because his standard is an average slot guy who isn't particularly elusive. He's been the only guy with reliable hands here for a few years so he is overrated by Giants fans. No one fears him and we'll see how it goes against better teams.
In any case, my point still stands: I would trade the Giants offensive personnel for the Ravens offensive personnel and its easy to be aggressive when your offensive line punishes people week in week out.
Wait….isn’t a former Giant, Zeitler, part of that offensive line, who are punishing people? According to many here on BBI, he was nothing special. In fact some even thought he was a liability. Are you telling me that BBI story isn’t true?
If this organization isn't confident in a third year QB to make plays in that situation, why would they pay him the going rate for QB's (30 million plus) after his rookie contract runs out?
You can't have it both ways...either Jones is the guy in crunch time, or he's not. If they don't think he is, might as well trade Jones to Miami or someone else for draft choices.
How much money are they paying Barkley?
This was my feeling as well. Wrong play calling deep in their zone. You can keep the clock running with an RPO OR.. even a screen pass to Barkley which gives him a better chance in space.
If this organization isn't confident in a third year QB to make plays in that situation, why would they pay him the going rate for QB's (30 million plus) after his rookie contract runs out?
Organizations that make questionable decisions would do this. The Giants make questionable decisions. The Giants also really, really want to be correct about Jones and Barkley. They will look for any reason for optimism as to why keeping them is the right move.
You go for it on 4th rather than kicking a FG and praying your D can stop the other team. Most likely, your D can't stop them.
I am now the guy killing Judge for coaching passively. As long as your consistent it's fair to crush this decision making. Judge coached that game as if he was scared of his own shadow.
I have no choice but to give Judge a pass, that maybe he's learning how to win still, and maybe this team doesn't have enough margin for error and it's a bit unfair to kill Judge for every single decision, but I am concerned.