That our vaunted Secondary would allow opposing QBs to complete a whopping 76% of their passes after two games, and that James Bradberry would play like a street free agent?
No doubt, the Giants non-existent pass rush hasn't helped matters any, but whatever.
Has 2021 come down to the third game of the season against Atlanta? Seems ridiculous, but maybe not so crazy when you're the New York Football Giants. At 0-3 there won't be much to play for anymore. Just individual jobs and individual pride and dignity.
That's it.
What is the status of Robinson - our third-round draft pick?
I know he had core surgery but that was about 6-8 weeks ago and the projection was he would be out about 6-8 weeks.
So is Robison working out? I know he has to sit out s few more weeks but it would be nice to know if he will be playing this year.
Anyone know what Robinson's present status is?
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Martinez and Peppers have been pretty ordinary this year. Certainly as compared to last year when they were all playing great. Martinez missed tackles this year that he never missed last year, Peppers seems to play half the game, Bradberry was untouchable last year and was rarely thrown at and Williams does not get his name called the whole game. Not sure if it is just a new scheme or they all just lost a step. Whatever it is they better get it together fast or this will be the longest season of a history of long seasons.
Williams, Martinez and Peppers all had career years last season. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that all 3 will be coming back down to something closer to their career norms. Doesn't mean they aren't any good, just not quite what they were last season.
Not so sure why I wouldn't expect these players to perform at least as well as they did last year? Peppers for one is in a contract year and usually they excel in those years. Williams signed a huge contract and Martinez has always been a tackling machine. And lets not forget Bradbury. Dont you think he was one of the best CB's in the league last year? Why would he take a step back? Dont make sense what you are saying. Unless the scheme changed and they are just getting used to it. And maybe it gets better from there.
The problem is Bradberry looks terrible this year. It would be no different if we signed a big-time Edge and he sucked. McLauren is a also a damn stud. Easy top 10 WR that gets no shine because of his QB play.
- we may have gotten career years from Williams and Bradbury
- we don't really have a pass rush
- the strength of last years D is weaker with the losses of DT and Hill
- our O sucked last year so we were never in shootouts and our opponents never had to go all out to score
- we had a good red zone D which often regressed to the mean
- the talent level just isn't that high.
There's just no reason to think that our D would be any better than average. Probably worse. They should be a little better than they have so far, but these games are within the reasonable range of outcomes
- we may have gotten career years from Williams and Bradbury
- we don't really have a pass rush
- the strength of last years D is weaker with the losses of DT and Hill
- our O sucked last year so we were never in shootouts and our opponents never had to go all out to score
- we had a good red zone D which often regressed to the mean
- the talent level just isn't that high.
There's just no reason to think that our D would be any better than average. Probably worse. They should be a little better than they have so far, but these games are within the reasonable range of outcomes
I thought the D would be a little worse than last year. I thought the addition of Jackson would mitigate some of the stuff you mentioned.
I think this defense got really overrated. I think the 16 D was much better.
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In comment 15377525 lecky said:
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Martinez and Peppers have been pretty ordinary this year. Certainly as compared to last year when they were all playing great. Martinez missed tackles this year that he never missed last year, Peppers seems to play half the game, Bradberry was untouchable last year and was rarely thrown at and Williams does not get his name called the whole game. Not sure if it is just a new scheme or they all just lost a step. Whatever it is they better get it together fast or this will be the longest season of a history of long seasons.
Williams, Martinez and Peppers all had career years last season. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that all 3 will be coming back down to something closer to their career norms. Doesn't mean they aren't any good, just not quite what they were last season.
Not so sure why I wouldn't expect these players to perform at least as well as they did last year? Williams signed a huge contract
Well let's stop right there. Look at last season for williams, and look at every other season in his career.
If you're expecting him to be that guy every year, why? Last year was the obvious nail sticking up. Like you said, contract year? There are as many stories of guys having shockingly awesome years, then falling back to earth as there are guys who let 'contract year' get in their heads and totally flop.
If you're expecting him to be that guy every year, why? Last year was the obvious nail sticking up. Like you said, contract year? There are as many stories of guys having shockingly awesome years, then falling back to earth as there are guys who let 'contract year' get in their heads and totally flop.
Even if you leave the "contract year" thing aside, it's still a little silly to just assume that everyone you bring back will play as well or better than the previous year. That's just not how it works and never has been.
agreed
Football Outsiders had the Giants defense rated 19th last year. I wouldn't hang my hat on that side of the ball being all that solid.
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In comment 15377623 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 15377525 lecky said:
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Martinez and Peppers have been pretty ordinary this year. Certainly as compared to last year when they were all playing great. Martinez missed tackles this year that he never missed last year, Peppers seems to play half the game, Bradberry was untouchable last year and was rarely thrown at and Williams does not get his name called the whole game. Not sure if it is just a new scheme or they all just lost a step. Whatever it is they better get it together fast or this will be the longest season of a history of long seasons.
Williams, Martinez and Peppers all had career years last season. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that all 3 will be coming back down to something closer to their career norms. Doesn't mean they aren't any good, just not quite what they were last season.
Not so sure why I wouldn't expect these players to perform at least as well as they did last year? Williams signed a huge contract
Well let's stop right there. Look at last season for williams, and look at every other season in his career.
If you're expecting him to be that guy every year, why? Last year was the obvious nail sticking up. Like you said, contract year? There are as many stories of guys having shockingly awesome years, then falling back to earth as there are guys who let 'contract year' get in their heads and totally flop.
7-8 sacks for Williams would be damn good; that's about where Leonard Marshall averaged during his years with the Giants.
That was probably the easiest TD catch he ever had!!
There were times when the DB’s were going into a backpedal before the ball was even snapped.
When you give those cushions I don’t care how old your pass rush is!! Easy pitch and catch for 2 weeks now.
If this doesn’t change Matt Ryan will shred them !!
To quote Mad-Eye Moody, "Play to your strengths".
If you'd have told me the Giants would have a terrible pass D I'd've never believed it. But they do.
And a terrible defense overall, so far. Incredible. The 2017 D let me down in a similar fashion. (Sh)It happens.
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When you build around corners and safeties instead of the front.
The problem is Bradberry looks terrible this year. It would be no different if we signed a big-time Edge and he sucked. McLauren is a also a damn stud. Easy top 10 WR that gets no shine because of his QB play.
It would be different. Pressure makes up for deficiencies in the secondary and leads to more big plays.
Big needs up front and edge.
Big needs up front and edge.
As far as up front (defensive tackles), what should the Giants be aiming for in the draft, a 3-tech or a nose tackle?
As far as playing soft zone, why? It didn't work last week or two, why use it?
Also, if the Giants get an edge in the early rounds of 2022 (1-2), is it a sign that they don't trust Ojulari? The analysis on one mock draft seemed to think so.
Giants select Drake Jackson, Jaxson Kirkland in latest Draft Wire mock - ( New Window )
- we may have gotten career years from Williams and Bradbury
- we don't really have a pass rush
- the strength of last years D is weaker with the losses of DT and Hill
- our O sucked last year so we were never in shootouts and our opponents never had to go all out to score
- we had a good red zone D which often regressed to the mean
- the talent level just isn't that high.
There's just no reason to think that our D would be any better than average. Probably worse. They should be a little better than they have so far, but these games are within the reasonable range of outcomes
Can't disagree with this at all sadly. Maddening as hell, but they definitely should be better than they have been the 1st 2 games.
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There's no pass rush, weak edge play, and Graham's calling a lot of huge, passive, soft cushions in zone. Any NFL QB with this much time will carve up this defense.
Big needs up front and edge.
As far as up front (defensive tackles), what should the Giants be aiming for in the draft, a 3-tech or a nose tackle?
As far as playing soft zone, why? It didn't work last week or two, why use it?
Also, if the Giants get an edge in the early rounds of 2022 (1-2), is it a sign that they don't trust Ojulari? The analysis on one mock draft seemed to think so. Giants select Drake Jackson, Jaxson Kirkland in latest Draft Wire mock - ( New Window )
Imo, they could use a NT and kick Dexter to DE. They might prefer the opposite, time will tell.
Soft zones are a typical response to zero pass rush generated. Why such big cushions in the question, especially with two proven CBs on the boundaries. It looks like JB and AJ are struggling with their confidence as well as their technique. Holmes has a tendency to not play smart and be too aggressive, but looked better versus WFT. Graham needs to figure it out.
Ojulari might be one edge for the future, but they'll stick need another for the other side. An impact difference maker up front is something this unit sorely lacks (sorry LW). Ojulari is not the type of Edge I'd be building around, I question their checklist for Edge prospects. Adding a Thibadeaux (sp?) elevates an entire defense.
We play defense like this and we are only going to find success against downfield passing attacks, against teams that struggle with the dropsies, or teams hellbent on establishing the run. That’s not most the NFL. In fact Ryan is a less mobile better version of Heinecke and Teddy at this point.
Based on how the offense looks, we need to start getting more aggressive on defense . No sense in having DJ and the passing weapons sitting on the bench ten minutes at a time. We don’t have the OL for that.
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In comment 15378481 JonC said:
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There's no pass rush, weak edge play, and Graham's calling a lot of huge, passive, soft cushions in zone. Any NFL QB with this much time will carve up this defense.
Big needs up front and edge.
As far as up front (defensive tackles), what should the Giants be aiming for in the draft, a 3-tech or a nose tackle?
As far as playing soft zone, why? It didn't work last week or two, why use it?
Also, if the Giants get an edge in the early rounds of 2022 (1-2), is it a sign that they don't trust Ojulari? The analysis on one mock draft seemed to think so. Giants select Drake Jackson, Jaxson Kirkland in latest Draft Wire mock - ( New Window )
Imo, they could use a NT and kick Dexter to DE. They might prefer the opposite, time will tell.
Soft zones are a typical response to zero pass rush generated. Why such big cushions in the question, especially with two proven CBs on the boundaries. It looks like JB and AJ are struggling with their confidence as well as their technique. Holmes has a tendency to not play smart and be too aggressive, but looked better versus WFT. Graham needs to figure it out.
Ojulari might be one edge for the future, but they'll stick need another for the other side. An impact difference maker up front is something this unit sorely lacks (sorry LW). Ojulari is not the type of Edge I'd be building around, I question their checklist for Edge prospects. Adding a Thibadeaux (sp?) elevates an entire defense.
I thought the Giants have already done that since Dexter Lawrence is right now the starting left end in the Giants' 3-4.
As far as their checklist for Edge prospects, it isn't hard to play contain with the quarterback. That's a scheme thing.
If the Giants do poorly this year, I'd go for Thibodeaux. If we do better or the Bears place middle of the first round, I'll go with George Karlaftis.
I don't even care about beating the Falcons, it really will prove nothing to me unless it's a really decisive win (their coaching and talent is not good) I want to see better coaching against the Saints, even if it's a loss (first game in Superdome back has potential to be a bloodbath), or might as well just clean house at the end of the year.
We play defense like this and we are only going to find success against downfield passing attacks, against teams that struggle with the dropsies, or teams hellbent on establishing the run. That’s not most the NFL. In fact Ryan is a less mobile better version of Heinecke and Teddy at this point.
Based on how the offense looks, we need to start getting more aggressive on defense . No sense in having DJ and the passing weapons sitting on the bench ten minutes at a time. We don’t have the OL for that.
We should have Bradberry and Jackson in the receivers' faces off the line of scrimmage to jam them. Unless Graham doesn't think they have the recovering speed.
We play defense like this and we are only going to find success against downfield passing attacks, against teams that struggle with the dropsies, or teams hellbent on establishing the run. That’s not most the NFL. In fact Ryan is a less mobile better version of Heinecke and Teddy at this point.
In essence... ourselves?
If you'd have told me the Giants would have a terrible pass D I'd've never believed it. But they do.
And a terrible defense overall, so far. Incredible. The 2017 D let me down in a similar fashion. (Sh)It happens.
Same here.
I don’t like it....the big question I keep asking is why is the D going to play better week 3 and beyond? Why were weeks 1-2 the anomaly? I can’t come up with an answer that isn’t bad and scary. Please prove me wrong.
And it's not like the Giants ignored the front 7 as alluded to in this thread. THey devoted a lot of resources to it. Martinez is a big money player at LB. Multiple 2nd and 3rd round picks at edge. First round talents at DL with Lawrence and Williams.
The D just has to play better. The Giants didn't just rub sticks together and hope for a miracle. They have been building this D for 3 years now.
I will continue to die on the hill that it starts and ends with coaching. GMs and scouting get a lot of talk but to me, especially with a franchise like the Giants that is moribund and stuck, the only way out is with excellent coaching. And we aren't seeing it here. Again.
Yeah that makes sense Jon.
How you doing brother?
Doing well my friend. both kids in college now... oopha
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howabout you and your fam?
Doing well my friend. both kids in college now... oopha
And we're in our 50s, wtf does the time go.
He started slow in Miami and finished strong and the same thing happened last year. We are seeing the same trend this year
Looked to be too many breakdowns in coverage and trouble matching up with the TEs versus Denver. Against WFT, it just seemed generally too soft all around including LBs in coverage. But there were times that the CBs just got beat by WRs making a play when they were manned up.
Have to imagine they are going to shake things up some in getting ready for Falcons. Would also expect Bradberry to rebound as he is a pretty solid player and can't be satisfied with his overall play this year.
This is as must a win as must wins come.
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In comment 15379292 JonC said:
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howabout you and your fam?
Doing well my friend. both kids in college now... oopha
And we're in our 50s, wtf does the time go.
Yep for sure. I feel like someone hit the FF button... lol
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anything year to year in the NFL.
If you'd have told me the Giants would have a terrible pass D I'd've never believed it. But they do.
And a terrible defense overall, so far. Incredible. The 2017 D let me down in a similar fashion. (Sh)It happens.
Same here.
I don’t like it....the big question I keep asking is why is the D going to play better week 3 and beyond? Why were weeks 1-2 the anomaly? I can’t come up with an answer that isn’t bad and scary. Please prove me wrong.
okay lets go with this...
The players are not getting "torched". What you are seeing are guys out of position or not in position to make a play on the ball.
When I see this, it tells me scheme and communication are the problems vs talent. So, this can absolutely be fixed and it is not the first time we started a season looking like this on defense only to turn it around.
We do not know what Graham changed during the off season with the scheme and language. We do not know why they are playing zone too much for my liking when we have guys who know how to cover.
When I see the scheme, it is not taking advantage of the players we have on the back end. So, the only explanation is they do not trust the front 4
If anything the scheming isn't protecting the defensive backfield, it's leaving it vulnerable.
It's so hard to predict year to year what you've got.
This year, we all assumed the Giants would build on their #9 overall ranking.
The problem is - you have to discount for
*Guys playing over their heads in contract years
*Expensive UFA's in their "Honeymoon year".
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Great players playing with motivation have great years. And what motivates pro players? $$$$$$$$.
Last year, the Giants had 2 top notch DT's Leonard Williams & Dalvin Tomlinson in a contract years. They also spent big $$$ in UFA and got Honeymoon Years from CB James Bradberry, MLB Blake Martinez and FS Logan Ryan. It's always a fun first year with an expensive UFA. They are playing nice, on their best behavior, trying to live up to that big contract and show the new city who they are. Human nature.
After that, sometimes the narrative changes quickly. It may not even be a conscious decision on the part of the player, but some combination of the hunger being gone and age setting in - and there's regression instead of the organic linear step forward. This year, they'll get a Honeymoon Year from Adoree Jackson but that's about it. Are any of their other difference makers hungry? Can this coaching staff motivate them to be?
I hope this isn't what we're seeing, but it's hard to dismiss it. We saw it in 2017 with an outstanding 2016 Giants D. The wheels came off the McAdoo train and the D was an embarrassment. I couldn't stand McAdoo but I remember being fired up for that 17 Giants D, too.