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Offensive goal for this game: More Jones - Less barkley

GNewGiants : 9/20/2021 11:43 am
Jones 2.5 touches to 1 rushing attempts.

Through the first two games, we have averaged 58.5 plays, so for the sake of arguments, lets round it up to 60. That means Jones should have roughly 42 plays in his hand whether its pass or run. And 18 rushes attempts between Barkley/Penny/Booker/WR reverse. The idea is to get the play makers the ball and right now Jones is coming off his best game in awhile, so his confidence should be going strong into a bad Atlanta team.

Golladay, SS, Slayton, Toney, and Rudolph can all contribute but insisting on running the ball from under center, especially on first down should be scrapped. Run it here and there to keep them honest and see if Barkley can rip a long run off. But if we can show we can throw the ball and DJ can keep the ends honest with some read options - I feel the offense can break through for a 30+ game.


But please, please, please stop handing the ball off to Barkley and receivers sweeps on first down. Open the offense more. Successful or not - and we can argue until the cows come home - we have to see if Jones can lead the offense just not contribute.
funny  
Justlurking : 9/20/2021 11:46 am : link
i just texted my buddies that it is time to design the gameplan around Jones and treat Saquon like every other team would, as a weapon with some plays designed to get him in space. We need to see if Jones can carry this team or not.

Having watched a lot of games this weekend, the QB play around the league is not great outside of about the top 10 QBs. it is time to see what we have.
If I could get the offense to adopt one thing  
Capt. Don : 9/20/2021 11:48 am : link
that another team does

It would be to copy how Sean Payton gets Alvin Kamara the ball in space.
RE: If I could get the offense to adopt one thing  
GNewGiants : 9/20/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15377540 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
that another team does

It would be to copy how Sean Payton gets Alvin Kamara the ball in space.


Same with McCaffrey. Always has room to run.
I think this the  
crick n NC : 9/20/2021 11:50 am : link
Correct path. Teams in the first two weeks keyed heavily on Barkley, Jones was given a chance to make them pay against Washington and did.
Guys (folks), I hear what you are saying about out in space  
jvm52106 : 9/20/2021 11:55 am : link
but, I truly wonder if Barkley has those same skills. He isn't as elusive as Kamara and doesn't run as hard at contact as Mccaffrey.

Barkley should be a better receiving back than he has shown. He doesn't run great routes and does drop more than he should.

I am not meaning to bash him, he seems like a nice guy, good teammate but, he has not lived up to the hype and that knee injury may be more cumbersome mentally than physically.
RE: If I could get the offense to adopt one thing  
Justlurking : 9/20/2021 11:56 am : link
In comment 15377540 Capt. Don said:
Quote:
that another team does

It would be to copy how Sean Payton gets Alvin Kamara the ball in space.


or mccaffery
Barkley is a big-time liability...  
BamaBlue : 9/20/2021 11:58 am : link
in pass/blitz blocking. We need to see more of Booker in passing situations, or Barkley needs to play an H-back role.
RE: Guys (folks), I hear what you are saying about out in space  
GNewGiants : 9/20/2021 11:59 am : link
In comment 15377553 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
but, I truly wonder if Barkley has those same skills. He isn't as elusive as Kamara and doesn't run as hard at contact as Mccaffrey.

Barkley should be a better receiving back than he has shown. He doesn't run great routes and does drop more than he should.

I am not meaning to bash him, he seems like a nice guy, good teammate but, he has not lived up to the hype and that knee injury may be more cumbersome mentally than physically.


If thats the case, Barkely wont be much of a factor for us cause he is not good being a workhorse and doesnt run through the tackles well.
RE: Guys (folks), I hear what you are saying about out in space  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15377553 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
but, I truly wonder if Barkley has those same skills. He isn't as elusive as Kamara and doesn't run as hard at contact as Mccaffrey.

Barkley should be a better receiving back than he has shown. He doesn't run great routes and does drop more than he should.

I am not meaning to bash him, he seems like a nice guy, good teammate but, he has not lived up to the hype and that knee injury may be more cumbersome mentally than physically.



We aren't doing Saquon any favors, instead we decide to give him the ball when teams are totally keyed in on him. It's why the read option was so open. So how about we take what defenses give us, until they adjust. This team isn't talent bereft anymore. Instead we are hellbent on forcing our will on opponents. The offensive line just isn't close to good enough to do whatever we want on offense. Saw the same crap from the Falcons against the Bucs this week, not saying they would have won, but they could have had a chance with better coaching.
RE: Guys (folks), I hear what you are saying about out in space  
Justlurking : 9/20/2021 12:03 pm : link
In comment 15377553 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
but, I truly wonder if Barkley has those same skills. He isn't as elusive as Kamara and doesn't run as hard at contact as Mccaffrey.

Barkley should be a better receiving back than he has shown. He doesn't run great routes and does drop more than he should.

I am not meaning to bash him, he seems like a nice guy, good teammate but, he has not lived up to the hype and that knee injury may be more cumbersome mentally than physically.


Well we need to see that as well. Cant commit long term to this guy if thats the case. Need to get back to a stable of backs.
Without commenting as to the value of idea . . . .  
TC : 9/20/2021 12:20 pm : link
I suspect there's about as much chance of this as there is hitting the lottery. If the Giants had any intention of using Saquon differently then they have, wouldn't they have done so by now?
RE: Without commenting as to the value of idea . . . .  
81_Great_Dane : 9/20/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15377579 TC said:
Quote:
I suspect there's about as much chance of this as there is hitting the lottery. If the Giants had any intention of using Saquon differently then they have, wouldn't they have done so by now?
Maybe, maybe not. Any good coach adapts according to how players are performing. Plus, the Giants seem to want to be unpredictable on offense the way the Patriots are unpredictable, with wide variation in their game plan week to week.

Does Garrett have that in him? I doubt it, but I hope so. Will Judge insist on it? I'm more confident on this front.
a lot of Jones running the ball  
cjac : 9/20/2021 12:37 pm : link
is based on how the Defense is reacting to the Read Option that they're running.

I personally dont think designed runs for the QB is the way to go here.

Just a thought
RE: RE: Without commenting as to the value of idea . . . .  
TC : 9/20/2021 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15377585 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
In comment 15377579 TC said:


Quote:


I suspect there's about as much chance of this as there is hitting the lottery. If the Giants had any intention of using Saquon differently then they have, wouldn't they have done so by now?

Maybe, maybe not. Any good coach adapts according to how players are performing. Plus, the Giants seem to want to be unpredictable on offense the way the Patriots are unpredictable, with wide variation in their game plan week to week.

Does Garrett have that in him? I doubt it, but I hope so. Will Judge insist on it? I'm more confident on this front.

We'll see. How many times have we heard, "Establish the run, and stop the run?" And uniformly as a foundation belief. The entire Giants organization seems wedded to this principle. Unfortunately, the RB they're convinced will accomplish this, doesn't.
No problem establishing stopping the run on defense because  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/20/2021 12:41 pm : link
that will keep us in favorable down and distance for these zones actually to work.

What I have issue is establishing the run on offense when we don't have the OL or the back to do that. Saquons still a freak and is best utilized in a spread offense. So lets run that. Judge talks about playing to players strengths, but we've seen very little of that offensively so far. At least Garrett was starting to get it with Jones last week.
The Giants went from making bad decisions to try and help Eli  
arniefez : 9/20/2021 12:41 pm : link
to making bad decisions to try and help Barkley. It is not the problem though. It's a symptom of the Owners falling in love with some of their players. Everything the Giants do seems to come from emotion and is a reaction.

The best organizations would cut their own grandmothers if it meant winning a game. The Giants fall in love with their own players. If they give Barkley another contract it will set them back another 5 years.
the Giants need to..  
Producer : 9/20/2021 12:42 pm : link
get Jones running more on read options and designed rollouts.

And they need to get Barkley in space, whether that means screens or in the slot or split wide, they must get Barkley doing what he does best, which is not three yards and a cloud of dust, because on those runs he tends to go 18 inches and fall down.
RE: Guys (folks), I hear what you are saying about out in space  
averagejoe : 9/20/2021 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15377553 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
but, I truly wonder if Barkley has those same skills. He isn't as elusive as Kamara and doesn't run as hard at contact as Mccaffrey.

Barkley should be a better receiving back than he has shown. He doesn't run great routes and does drop more than he should.

I am not meaning to bash him, he seems like a nice guy, good teammate but, he has not lived up to the hype and that knee injury may be more cumbersome mentally than physically.


Totally agree. He can succeed in a pass first offense but will never succeed in a run first offense. And his receiving skills have been greatly exaggerated .
RE: a lot of Jones running the ball  
crick n NC : 9/20/2021 12:49 pm : link
In comment 15377593 cjac said:
Quote:
is based on how the Defense is reacting to the Read Option that they're running.

I personally dont think designed runs for the QB is the way to go here.

Just a thought


I agree, when I said more Jones, I meant more read option to make the defense play disciplined.
RE: the Giants need to..  
Dnew15 : 9/20/2021 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15377602 Producer said:
Quote:
get Jones running more on read options and designed rollouts.

And they need to get Barkley in space, whether that means screens or in the slot or split wide, they must get Barkley doing what he does best, which is not three yards and a cloud of dust, because on those runs he tends to go 18 inches and fall down.


Ah yes...Ron Dayne syndrome is a real thing.
I'm all for more RPO from DJ  
Dnew15 : 9/20/2021 12:55 pm : link
but for the love of God someone teach that boy how to slide.

He's a big boy that can move, but does get hurt...let's remember that.
One suggestion  
ChicagoMarty : 9/20/2021 1:17 pm : link
Get Engram the ball in space like KC does with Kelce
Offensive goals for this game should be same each week:  
chick310 : 9/20/2021 1:21 pm : link
move the ball more consistently, take care of it, and score more points.

The designed QB runs and better spreading of ball around via passing game probably caught WFT by surprise, and to some degree it was effective. But the Giants left plays out there as we know so execution still has to be better. 10 or so QBs also passed for over 300 yards this week so plenty of room left to grow here.

Giants should also be ready with some new wrinkles as Falcons will be looking for Jones to run more often now. There should be plenty of ways to take advantage of that with getting the Defense to commit/overflow. Nothing wrong with getting out bounds too as he doesn't need to be taking shots every week with an injury around the corner. And some may do it intentionally.
.  
Go Terps : 9/20/2021 1:23 pm : link
Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.
RE: a lot of Jones running the ball  
BillKo : 9/20/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15377593 cjac said:
Quote:
is based on how the Defense is reacting to the Read Option that they're running.

I personally dont think designed runs for the QB is the way to go here.

Just a thought


I agree, and they have to be careful how much they use it. But they do have to use it because it's a very effective part of their offense.
RE: .  
WillVAB : 9/20/2021 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15377637 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.


Trade him to SF, they’ve been hammered at RB with injuries.
RE: .  
Dnew15 : 9/20/2021 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15377637 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.


The market can't be good for SB. The league sees the same thing everyone else does and Bill O'Brien is no longer making decisions on NFL rosters.

I never thought there would be a day where I was more bullish moving forward on Jones than SB...and yet here we are.
The more Barkley plays the more disappointed in  
Dinger : 9/20/2021 2:00 pm : link
him as the second pick I get. He is very good a specific thing and that is running in space. He isn't good at grinding between the tackles. He isn't good at pass protection and though he can break tackles in the secondary he isn't getting thru any 1st level tackles. I think the Read option is a good combo for him and DJ. If they can work in the 'P' then it might get even better.
The RPO  
crick n NC : 9/20/2021 2:00 pm : link
should soften the inside a bit to create room for the RB's. Defenses were crashing down with no hesitation and without repercussion. The Giants took advantage of that week 2. I would expect the Falcons to be less aggressive crashing inside.
I meant read option  
crick n NC : 9/20/2021 2:01 pm : link
not RPO
Agree and I'd expand upon this a bit  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2021 2:37 pm : link
The Giants should go into every game with the intention of score > 30 points, spearheaded by their QB. Not that they have to score 30 every week, but that should be their mentality.

That is how most of the good teams in the league approach games. They score a lot and their QBs lead the way. If we want to be good - actually good, not just in the mix in a bad division- we need to do this. We need to test Jones and all the other parts on O to see if we can do it and identify they pieces that are falling short.
In hindsight  
5BowlsSoon : 9/20/2021 2:43 pm : link
We made a mistake picking Barkley, but I think we are making a mistake to be playing him this much this early. His injury takes longer to recover than one year and he is being asked to be the Barkley of old right now.

I actually was hoping he would start the season on IR for the first three weeks or so. Give him more time to heal and strengthen up.
The goal should be to vary Barkley and Jones  
Angus : 9/20/2021 3:08 pm : link
Do more Barley running left and Jones rolling right. Keep the RPO with Jones running left. Give Jones some throws off the RPO running right.

I don't think Saquon quite has his legs back yet. He has a number of times tried to cut and fallen instead. I would bet that his balance will improve with time. I also think that his 40 yard run would have been a touchdown if he was 100 %.

I agree Saquon is also a liability in pass protection. He should get better, but in the meantime, use him more as a safety valve. He will draw coverage, but also allow Jones a place to put the ball that would be out of danger when the rush is too much.
Receiver sweeps  
Angus : 9/20/2021 3:11 pm : link
I will add that the problem with receiver sweeps has been the blocking. There should be an absolute priority for there to be no penetration on sweeps. Instead blockers are skipping to the second level without taking care of the first. So, yardage is being lost without giving the jet sweep a chance. Fix the blocking and we would like those jet sweeps a slot more.
RE: .  
FStubbs : 9/20/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15377637 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.


I don't think anyone in the league is that stupid.

Barkley should be moved around the offense as the gadget player that he is.
Barkley is not a bum  
Jerry in_DC : 9/20/2021 3:47 pm : link
He was never worth the pick, not even close. I don't want any part of his next contract.

But there are plenty of teams for whom I'd consider buying low on him. Ravens, Rams, Cardinals come to mind. Probably a few others. He'd need to get his burst back of course but he should get most of it sometime this year. He can still be a big weapon- he's just not a centerpiece.
We have a generational running back  
WillieYoung : 9/20/2021 3:50 pm : link
Unfortunately. it was my father's generation.
Don't agree with less Barkley  
Gregorio : 9/20/2021 4:22 pm : link
How about not running Barkley between the tackles? He been consistently running into a pile of defenders. Design plays to get him the ball in space, whether a handoff or dump pass, but let him do what he's good at.
Like I said in another thread  
D HOS : 9/20/2021 4:42 pm : link
It would be best to send Barkley to a team that would use him correctly and give him a chance at his gold jacket. We absolutely can do well with solid to great backs, not generational backs that we can't design success for.
RE: Don't agree with less Barkley  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/20/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15377923 Gregorio said:
Quote:
How about not running Barkley between the tackles? He been consistently running into a pile of defenders. Design plays to get him the ball in space, whether a handoff or dump pass, but let him do what he's good at.


If a RB can't run inside, is he worth playing? This isn't midget football.
RE: RE: .  
GMen72 : 9/20/2021 6:55 pm : link
In comment 15377698 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 15377637 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.



The market can't be good for SB. The league sees the same thing everyone else does and Bill O'Brien is no longer making decisions on NFL rosters.

I never thought there would be a day where I was more bullish moving forward on Jones than SB...and yet here we are.


Give it a week...nobody was bullish on either after the Denver game.

I find it interesting that a lot of Giants fans blame DJs struggles on the OLine, but that same OLine isn't used to defend SB coming off a knee injury and year off. Evaluating Saquon shouldn't even be considered until the 2nd half the season, at the earliest.
RE: RE: Don't agree with less Barkley  
Gregorio : 9/21/2021 6:19 am : link
In comment 15377974 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:

If a RB can't run inside, is he worth playing? This isn't midget football.


That's a good point. A RB should be able to run inside. As Sy'56 reported, in the Wash game he often went straight into the heart of the defense at their best defenders. Why there?

It is also important to play to a player's strength. We saw how devastating he can be in space in his rookie season. It's imperative to get him open.



RE: RE: RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/21/2021 7:32 am : link
In comment 15378149 GMen72 said:
Quote:
In comment 15377698 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


In comment 15377637 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Every snap should be out of the shotgun, and most should be RPOs or at least have play action. Mechanically the play action out of the shotgun really seems to work for Jones. The movement - catch snap, put ball in RB belly and pull it out and up - is something he executes very well and it puts him in a position to throw quickly.

As for Barkley, they should trade him the moment an opportunity arises. I'm not even sure he's the best back on the roster.



The market can't be good for SB. The league sees the same thing everyone else does and Bill O'Brien is no longer making decisions on NFL rosters.

I never thought there would be a day where I was more bullish moving forward on Jones than SB...and yet here we are.



Give it a week...nobody was bullish on either after the Denver game.

I find it interesting that a lot of Giants fans blame DJs struggles on the OLine, but that same OLine isn't used to defend SB coming off a knee injury and year off. Evaluating Saquon shouldn't even be considered until the 2nd half the season, at the earliest.


The issues he's having running inside the tackles aren't new.

Why are we pinning it on the knee injury? This has been who he is.
I don't want to pile on Barkley  
mittenedman : 9/21/2021 7:50 am : link
anymore: I've been hugely critical of his game since he got here and it seems the curtain is being lifted a bit, and he's being put through the ringer.

That said - I don't see him as a good outside runner either. He's no Eric Dickerson. IMO, Barkley has the cardinal sin for any NFL player, he wants absolutely nothing to do with the physical side of the game. And it pervades everything he does. He's little more than a beach body, and his career may be on TV or fitness.

One of my all-time favorite players is Ahmad Bradshaw, who would run full speed into a brick wall whenever asked. You have to be crazy tough to play in the NFL, it's the one thing above all else.
Nothing  
crick n NC : 9/21/2021 7:53 am : link
Like questioning a player's toughness from the couch.
Barkley can run with power  
Greg from LI : 9/21/2021 9:28 am : link
He's shown that, when he wants to, he can bulldoze defenders. He just doesn't choose to do so very often. Most of the time, he does his Barry Sanders impression and dance around to try to break a long run.

Now, here's where I undoubtedly show my shallow grasp of offensive game plans, but I kind of would like to see them use Barkley and Penny in a backfield together, a Mr Inside/Mr Outside kind of dynamic. You know at this point that Barkley will rarely be successful running between the tackles, so why keep calling on him to do it?
RE: Barkley can run with power  
Matt M. : 9/21/2021 2:17 pm : link
In comment 15378446 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He's shown that, when he wants to, he can bulldoze defenders. He just doesn't choose to do so very often. Most of the time, he does his Barry Sanders impression and dance around to try to break a long run.

Now, here's where I undoubtedly show my shallow grasp of offensive game plans, but I kind of would like to see them use Barkley and Penny in a backfield together, a Mr Inside/Mr Outside kind of dynamic. You know at this point that Barkley will rarely be successful running between the tackles, so why keep calling on him to do it?
I like the idea of the more traditional 2 back backfield. Penny is a decent FB who, of late, has shown a decent ability to pick up some tough inside runs. They used him enough in the preseason and in 2 games to at least provide an extra thing for defenses to think about in short yardage.
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