Heinicke’s interception gets brought up but Jone’s fumble gets excused away by the same crowd that says he was good week 1.
Funny. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't think people were raving about Daniel Jones after week 1. BUT, I do remember multiple threads burying Garrett for his shit playcalling. You would think some people deny it's possible for Garrett to have an effect on Jones play.
He actually played well against Dallas the last game of '20 (the INT was totally EE's fault and it resulted in a 10 pt swing). He also played well a few games around the middle of the season before he got hurt.
I wouldn't count the games when he was severely hobbled. He prolly shouldn't have been playing a couple of those games.
Whether that’s true or not — do you believe he’s been the 2nd best passer in the NFL this year?
I have been a Daniel Jones skeptic since he was in college
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
other than his running ability, he rarely ever can make an off script play.
watching some QB's yesterday so some pretty awesome things when a play breaks down made me think that with JOnes, it is less about what he does but rather what he doesn't do that contributes to losing.
again, I don't put him very high on the list of NYG problems right now but I also don't see him being a difference maker.
RE: RE: If Jones was on the Bucs offense sure. I mean we should still put up
about 30 on them. Do not you realize the Bucs offense is infinitely more talented than ours? They have the most talented offense in the league and it's not really close. They were pretty damn good when Jameis was there, but then they added a rock solid RT, Fournette, and Gronk (who can still play, looks better than he did last year tbh) Or was it the Tom Bradys 45 the Matt Ryans 30 to you last week or whatever the final score was, turned it off in the 4th once the game was not in the balance.
Go look at some of the damn touchdown passes that the attempts on defense were laughable. Hopefully this is the week the Golladay Jones connection gets going. They ran a fade and the dude was like 3 yards off, I'm not even sure how tthat happens. Brady didn't even have to put low to the pylon or high and outside.
You’re not making the point you think you’re making. Brady took advantage of his talent gap. That doesn’t mean he was decent. He was great yesterday. Them being talented doesn’t mean he wasn’t. What did you want 8 touchdowns? Jones needs to throw 3 tds Sunday to even have 5 in three games.
Okay I get it, in your world it’s the QB and then everyone else is just a jersey with pads. No wonder you think DJ stinks.
You can put 10-15 QBs on the Bucs Sunday and they toss 5 TDs. Every QBs situation is different and Tom choose his situation VERY carefully. You are starting to see the cracks in the Bucs though and it’s their secondary. Their secondary the last decade has been our OL. Some fools gold last year with Ints because teams were forced to play shootout and that front 7 gets after it, best in football.
RE: RE: I have been a Daniel Jones skeptic since he was in college
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
Great response.
Times two and all that a talent differential. Of the OL can just be not disastrous this week, I think we see another excellent performance.
RE: RE: RE: If Jones was on the Bucs offense sure. I mean we should still put up
about 30 on them. Do not you realize the Bucs offense is infinitely more talented than ours? They have the most talented offense in the league and it's not really close. They were pretty damn good when Jameis was there, but then they added a rock solid RT, Fournette, and Gronk (who can still play, looks better than he did last year tbh) Or was it the Tom Bradys 45 the Matt Ryans 30 to you last week or whatever the final score was, turned it off in the 4th once the game was not in the balance.
Go look at some of the damn touchdown passes that the attempts on defense were laughable. Hopefully this is the week the Golladay Jones connection gets going. They ran a fade and the dude was like 3 yards off, I'm not even sure how tthat happens. Brady didn't even have to put low to the pylon or high and outside.
You’re not making the point you think you’re making. Brady took advantage of his talent gap. That doesn’t mean he was decent. He was great yesterday. Them being talented doesn’t mean he wasn’t. What did you want 8 touchdowns? Jones needs to throw 3 tds Sunday to even have 5 in three games.
Okay I get it, in your world it’s the QB and then everyone else is just a jersey with pads. No wonder you think DJ stinks.
You can put 10-15 QBs on the Bucs Sunday and they toss 5 TDs. Every QBs situation is different and Tom choose his situation VERY carefully. You are starting to see the cracks in the Bucs though and it’s their secondary. Their secondary the last decade has been our OL. Some fools gold last year with Ints because teams were forced to play shootout and that front 7 gets after it, best in football.
And 10-15 QBs would have played well yesterday. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
This is why Golladay was yelling on the sideline. Jones is holding the ball too long.
This is a liad of crap. I saw at least 7 throws thursdsy where he was releasing before a guy was out if his break. Glad to kmow you were privy to the argument between golladay and jones.
I swear people just come here to bitch and don't watch the game. They just troll. Even the announcers pointed out a few times that Jones threw it early, with anticipation. The nice pass to Rudolph was one a specifically remember being pointed out and a replay shown. Its like no matter what really happens in the game, it gets ignored for the "agenda"
This is why Golladay was yelling on the sideline. Jones is holding the ball too long.
This is a liad of crap. I saw at least 7 throws thursdsy where he was releasing before a guy was out if his break. Glad to kmow you were privy to the argument between golladay and jones.
I swear people just come here to bitch and don't watch the game. They just troll. Even the announcers pointed out a few times that Jones threw it early, with anticipation. The nice pass to Rudolph was one a specifically remember being pointed out and a replay shown. Its like no matter what really happens in the game, it gets ignored for the "agenda"
Oh yeah, and Golladay said he was yelling at Garrett not Jones, so once again you made something up
is only good because all the players around him are HoFers.
I'm getting old, but it feels like yesterday when Vincent Jackson and Keenan McCardell were Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. Any HS QB could've done what Phillip Rivers was doing....
Do you think that football in a one player game, like tennis or golf?
These QBs play with 21 other guys, O and D and our OC and DC stunk the place out in both games.
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Do you think that football in a one player game, like tennis or golf?
These QBs play with 21 other guys, O and D and our OC and DC stunk the place out in both games.
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
The Giants didn’t pick Sam Darnold. Get over it already and move on.
Darnold wasn't the guy I wanted. And I have moved on - being a Giants fan now is just about trying to understand the errors they make and how it leads to the terrible football we've been subjected to.
15-35. I wonder how bad it has to get before everyone acknowledges this disaster.
The Giants didn’t pick Sam Darnold. Get over it already and move on.
Darnold wasn't the guy I wanted. And I have moved on - being a Giants fan now is just about trying to understand the errors they make and how it leads to the terrible football we've been subjected to.
15-35. I wonder how bad it has to get before everyone acknowledges this disaster.
I don't think you're alone in thinking 15-35 is a disaster. I don't think you are alone in trying to understand the errors. Your perspective and narrative is what is setting you apart.
Your posts portray that the Giants are only capable of performing negatively unless x happens.
You might not be wrong...but it is entirely possible that good things do happen that we can build off of and that x might not always be the reason for losing.
It seems you don't communicate any positives you see.
Your posts portray that the Giants are only capable of performing negatively unless x happens.
You might not be wrong...but it is entirely possible that good things do happen that we can build off of and that x might not always be the reason for losing.
It seems you don't communicate any positives you see.
I said Jones played well in Washington.
People have been grasping for reasons to identify "improvement", "growth", and the "arrow pointing up" in the face of losses for years on this board. The flawed methodologies that characterize this organization haven't changed - looking for positives in the face of poor results...THAT is narrative.
15-35, 0 days over .500 since 2016 - that is not narrative. That is fact. If the Giants were a good, well run team I'd be here saying they are a good, well run team. I'd be happy to say that as I root for them to win.
But they are a bad, poorly run team. Jones has been a bad quarterback. Barkley has been a disaster. These are facts, not narrative.
The team is close to being in crisis. I don’t mind
Terps’ negativity because it’s entirely warranted. But I saw our two most important young players - Jones and AT — play good games Thursday, so that at least provides a basis for future growth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If this doesn’t make you question…
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
In an honest moment, I am fairly sure you don't buy this ranking...
Well, it's through 2 weeks. Jones-that one idiotic TO aside-hasn't been the issue. The issue has been the defense sucking & Garrett's offense having no imagination.
Anyone with Sunday Ticket can tell you there are many quarterbacks playing better football than Jones through two weeks. Shit, Jones was the second best quarterback in the field in both of his games. He played well in Washington, but Heinicke made the plays to win at the end.
But the bar for many here on Moral Victory Interactive is very, very low.
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If this doesn’t make you question…
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
RE: everyone has to exaggerate just to make a fucking point
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
His YPA would be higher if Garrett called plays in the opener like he did verse WFT. Either way, it's a small sample.
It is promising though because Denver has a very good defense and we know WFT is at least middle of the pack. Lets see how he does against one of the bottom dwellers. I don't know if you play fantasy, but generally speaking, guys tend to put up a lot better stats depending on who they play. The Eagles with that scrub Jalen put up 32 were barely functional at home after the 49ers woke up.
draft pick for him. Does he know how to win? Is his ceiling high enough? We will find out shortly
We've kicked this around when Darnold got traded. If the Jets could garner a second rounder for SD, I have to imagine we would get at least that for Jones...
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
Curious, why YPA and YPC? Wouldn't YPC be a better metric, since anyone can throw long bad passes. Seems to me that the passes a QB actually completes (so throws well) should matter more?
Curious, why YPA and YPC? Wouldn't YPC be a better metric, since anyone can throw long bad passes. Seems to me that the passes a QB actually completes (so throws well) should matter more?
YPA is better than YPC because it smooths out the result by including incompletions.
Further, YPA it's been shown to be a very accurate measurement for success. Teams that have the higher YPA tend to be the team that wins. There is more to it, but that's been the general trend.
A very good compliment is AY/A because that accounts for TDs and INTs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If this doesn’t make you question…
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
In an honest moment, I am fairly sure you don't buy this ranking...
No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If this doesn’t make you question…
No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
There has been plenty of commentary the last two weeks about the defensive struggles. And how they haven't lived up to their expectations. I have no problem saying we lost to WFT because they made Heinicke look like Joe Montana. I'm a Graham guy, so I am surprised what we are looking at.
Chiefs do have excellent skill players. But you do realize the reason the get so much space, and it looks so easy, is because the defense has is so concerned about Mahomes making EVERY throw. You can't take any part of the field away from him because he can get the ball everywhere.
Jones, unfortunately, doesn't have that skill. Few do. But it's a point worth making because just because you have weapons doesn't mean you will have the similar success as other teams with weapons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If this doesn’t make you question…
No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
There has been plenty of commentary the last two weeks about the defensive struggles. And how they haven't lived up to their expectations. I have no problem saying we lost to WFT because they made Heinicke look like Joe Montana. I'm a Graham guy, so I am surprised what we are looking at.
Chiefs do have excellent skill players. But you do realize the reason the get so much space, and it looks so easy, is because the defense has is so concerned about Mahomes making EVERY throw. You can't take any part of the field away from him because he can get the ball everywhere.
Jones, unfortunately, doesn't have that skill. Few do. But it's a point worth making because just because you have weapons doesn't mean you will have the similar success as other teams with weapons.
I thought Graham had it figured out last year. We will see if he can right the ship.
It isn't just the Chiefs skill players that are making plays. Just this week there were plenty of home run plays.
Buffalo's Singletary had a huge run right through Miami's defense. Jax had Jamal Agnew return a kick for a TD. Henry with a 60 yard TD run. Players make plays. They find the endzone. We have players dropping passes, not getting open, and running for 2 ypc.
why the debate on Jones over and over? Top 10 or not he is a good QB. With all the injuries and players who suck on this team , our $90m disappointing Defense and it still all on Jones. 250yds being knocked? Add in the drops. How many passes does he throw? Not nearly as much as most QBs. Why? Cause defense can’t get the other team off the field. Or I guess running the ball doesn’t count. We have a promising kid who gets knocked over and over when our D gets maybe 30% of shit here when they are 90% responsible.
Now is when it makes the most sense to debate Jones. A decision on his fifth year option is due at the end of this year. It's not just about whether you think Jones is good - it's about whether he's worth being paid like a franchise quarterback. Timing and situation matter.
The way I see it, this organization is on the brink of another teardown. It needs to be paying a big QB contract like it needs a hole in the head. Jones played well in Washington - he needs to be at least that good nearly all the time to merit getting paid. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.
At this point Jones is still a guy with an 8-20 record that's never beaten a team over .500.
If this team is sitting at 2-7 in a few weeks we can't be talking about Jones being the guy. It just makes no sense.
why the debate on Jones over and over? Top 10 or not he is a good QB. With all the injuries and players who suck on this team , our $90m disappointing Defense and it still all on Jones. 250yds being knocked? Add in the drops. How many passes does he throw? Not nearly as much as most QBs. Why? Cause defense can’t get the other team off the field. Or I guess running the ball doesn’t count. We have a promising kid who gets knocked over and over when our D gets maybe 30% of shit here when they are 90% responsible.
He's a good QB when he plays washington. When else was he a good QB?
1 touchdown a game is good now? He was held without a passing TD in half his games played last year. Go ahead and excuse that on talent not picking him up, but Daniel Jones was not a mid-round pick they're trying to turn into an NFL starter. He was Pick #6. The expectation is that the franchise revolves around you and you lead from the front on performance.
As long as people are willing to draw a false equivalence of Jones taking a long time to develop to quarterbacks who haven't even played a full season worth of games. as if it's some proof that we shouldn't have high expectations, this should continue to be a point of argument.
designed to. Garret is obsessed with down and distance which kills chances for big plays and YAC. NFL is all about YAC now and we barely get any because Garrett wants to run 100 curls a game.
Golladay didn’t play well, but the signing is already worth it getting in his grill. That big PI to him was an audible hot call, it was probably another curl route. I’m really hoping DJ just starts taking things over. Garrett was solid Thursday, but definitely still a ton of room for improvement. I’m giving him a pass for now because Graham has been laughably bad. Whoever said DJ is getting most the ire when the defense has been 90 percent of the problem nailed it.
RE: Thunderstruck…..their players make plays because they have offenses
designed to. Garret is obsessed with down and distance which kills chances for big plays and YAC. NFL is all about YAC now and we barely get any because Garrett wants to run 100 curls a game.
Really?
KG dropped a fly that would have been a long gain, Slayton scored a TD on a go, and Slayton almost had a TD on an out and up. Plus, DJ hit Shep on numerous crossing/drag routes and Shep got got YAC.
Slayton has a 33 yard completion.
Smith had a 21 yard completion.
Shep had a 21 yard completion.
Let's look at the Rams since McVay is an offensive innovator and know he has Stafford. Kupp had a 44 yarder, Henderson had 23 yarder, and Woods had a 16 yarder.
Gee, what a huge difference between McVay's attack and Garrett's...
designed to. Garret is obsessed with down and distance which kills chances for big plays and YAC. NFL is all about YAC now and we barely get any because Garrett wants to run 100 curls a game.
Really?
KG dropped a fly that would have been a long gain, Slayton scored a TD on a go, and Slayton almost had a TD on an out and up. Plus, DJ hit Shep on numerous crossing/drag routes and Shep got got YAC.
Slayton has a 33 yard completion.
Smith had a 21 yard completion.
Shep had a 21 yard completion.
Let's look at the Rams since McVay is an offensive innovator and know he has Stafford. Kupp had a 44 yarder, Henderson had 23 yarder, and Woods had a 16 yarder.
Gee, what a huge difference between McVay's attack and Garrett's...
Like I said, it was much better this week. And exactly why we saw more success.
Are we seriously comparing these two offenses schematically ? They don’t resemble each other at all. When’s the last time curls and sticks was a staple in the Rams offense? When’s the last time we put defenders in conflict in zone? When’s the last time we moved the pocket? We should definitely be moving it behind Andrew Thomas now, but I know we have a better hope of watching pigs fly. Garret was much better this week, but there’s still room for improvement. It was said an another thread “amazing” yeah no. It was solid and did look much more modern both schematically and calling plays. I don’t want to see the reverse on the edge of fg range ever again and we leaned on running out of tight in the redzone last year. Well zero chance of that happening with Saquon and this OL.
I don’t have a problem trying it next week out the gates, but as soon as it doesn’t work. We need to get out of out. The Bucs tried against the Falcons and they couldn’t do it and they are much better than us there. If they look at the tape this week and think they are going to, I’ll pretty much lose hope in Judge tbh. Just tells me he has a stick up his ass for execution and not scheme.
Funny. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I don't think people were raving about Daniel Jones after week 1. BUT, I do remember multiple threads burying Garrett for his shit playcalling. You would think some people deny it's possible for Garrett to have an effect on Jones play.
I wouldn't count the games when he was severely hobbled. He prolly shouldn't have been playing a couple of those games.
Whether that’s true or not — do you believe he’s been the 2nd best passer in the NFL this year?
His overall PFF grade is 6th
His overall QBR is 9th
His PAA (points above avg contributed) is 8th
His EPA (expected points added) is 8th
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
His overall PFF grade is 6th
His overall QBR is 9th
His PAA (points above avg contributed) is 8th
His EPA (expected points added) is 8th
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
Great response.
watching some QB's yesterday so some pretty awesome things when a play breaks down made me think that with JOnes, it is less about what he does but rather what he doesn't do that contributes to losing.
again, I don't put him very high on the list of NYG problems right now but I also don't see him being a difference maker.
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about 30 on them. Do not you realize the Bucs offense is infinitely more talented than ours? They have the most talented offense in the league and it's not really close. They were pretty damn good when Jameis was there, but then they added a rock solid RT, Fournette, and Gronk (who can still play, looks better than he did last year tbh) Or was it the Tom Bradys 45 the Matt Ryans 30 to you last week or whatever the final score was, turned it off in the 4th once the game was not in the balance.
Go look at some of the damn touchdown passes that the attempts on defense were laughable. Hopefully this is the week the Golladay Jones connection gets going. They ran a fade and the dude was like 3 yards off, I'm not even sure how tthat happens. Brady didn't even have to put low to the pylon or high and outside.
You’re not making the point you think you’re making. Brady took advantage of his talent gap. That doesn’t mean he was decent. He was great yesterday. Them being talented doesn’t mean he wasn’t. What did you want 8 touchdowns? Jones needs to throw 3 tds Sunday to even have 5 in three games.
Okay I get it, in your world it’s the QB and then everyone else is just a jersey with pads. No wonder you think DJ stinks.
You can put 10-15 QBs on the Bucs Sunday and they toss 5 TDs. Every QBs situation is different and Tom choose his situation VERY carefully. You are starting to see the cracks in the Bucs though and it’s their secondary. Their secondary the last decade has been our OL. Some fools gold last year with Ints because teams were forced to play shootout and that front 7 gets after it, best in football.
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However, to just dismiss the PFF is problematic.
His overall QBR is 9th
His PAA (points above avg contributed) is 8th
His EPA (expected points added) is 8th
PFF is calculated completely differently than these other advanced metrics
Additionally is in tops in the league in depth of completion.
These are all fairly objective (PFF not as objective) measurements and they all seem to line up.
Perhaps he is playing well and what is going on around him is a mess. Price is a disaster at center. In addition to blocking poorly he had multiple high snaps. Barkley clearly isn’t elite right now…and as well as Shep has played, when was the last time someone made a play for Jones in a way that Kelce did last night on that ridiculous run after the catch. The offense was supposed to improve based on Barkley returning to form, signing Golladay, drafting Toney, and consistency along the o-line. None of these things have panned out to this point (it’s early). Couple that with a boring/predictable route tree that Garrett favors (how many 4 curl route plays can they do) and Jones has been the bright spot on offense.
Will Jones prove to be a consistent top 10 QB? I am still skeptical, however i can admit he has impressed thus far (2 games)
Great response.
Times two and all that a talent differential. Of the OL can just be not disastrous this week, I think we see another excellent performance.
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In comment 15377963 Zeke's Alibi said:
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about 30 on them. Do not you realize the Bucs offense is infinitely more talented than ours? They have the most talented offense in the league and it's not really close. They were pretty damn good when Jameis was there, but then they added a rock solid RT, Fournette, and Gronk (who can still play, looks better than he did last year tbh) Or was it the Tom Bradys 45 the Matt Ryans 30 to you last week or whatever the final score was, turned it off in the 4th once the game was not in the balance.
Go look at some of the damn touchdown passes that the attempts on defense were laughable. Hopefully this is the week the Golladay Jones connection gets going. They ran a fade and the dude was like 3 yards off, I'm not even sure how tthat happens. Brady didn't even have to put low to the pylon or high and outside.
You’re not making the point you think you’re making. Brady took advantage of his talent gap. That doesn’t mean he was decent. He was great yesterday. Them being talented doesn’t mean he wasn’t. What did you want 8 touchdowns? Jones needs to throw 3 tds Sunday to even have 5 in three games.
Okay I get it, in your world it’s the QB and then everyone else is just a jersey with pads. No wonder you think DJ stinks.
You can put 10-15 QBs on the Bucs Sunday and they toss 5 TDs. Every QBs situation is different and Tom choose his situation VERY carefully. You are starting to see the cracks in the Bucs though and it’s their secondary. Their secondary the last decade has been our OL. Some fools gold last year with Ints because teams were forced to play shootout and that front 7 gets after it, best in football.
And 10-15 QBs would have played well yesterday. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
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with proper anticipation and timing.
He is a see it / throw it QB.
This is why Golladay was yelling on the sideline. Jones is holding the ball too long.
This is a liad of crap. I saw at least 7 throws thursdsy where he was releasing before a guy was out if his break. Glad to kmow you were privy to the argument between golladay and jones.
I swear people just come here to bitch and don't watch the game. They just troll. Even the announcers pointed out a few times that Jones threw it early, with anticipation. The nice pass to Rudolph was one a specifically remember being pointed out and a replay shown. Its like no matter what really happens in the game, it gets ignored for the "agenda"
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In comment 15377886 Producer said:
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with proper anticipation and timing.
He is a see it / throw it QB.
This is why Golladay was yelling on the sideline. Jones is holding the ball too long.
This is a liad of crap. I saw at least 7 throws thursdsy where he was releasing before a guy was out if his break. Glad to kmow you were privy to the argument between golladay and jones.
I swear people just come here to bitch and don't watch the game. They just troll. Even the announcers pointed out a few times that Jones threw it early, with anticipation. The nice pass to Rudolph was one a specifically remember being pointed out and a replay shown. Its like no matter what really happens in the game, it gets ignored for the "agenda"
Oh yeah, and Golladay said he was yelling at Garrett not Jones, so once again you made something up
I'm getting old, but it feels like yesterday when Vincent Jackson and Keenan McCardell were Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. Any HS QB could've done what Phillip Rivers was doing....
The Giants didn’t pick Sam Darnold. Get over it already and move on.
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PFF, nothing will.
Was he better than Bridgewater game one? No.
Heinicki game two? I don’t know there either…
Do you think that football in a one player game, like tennis or golf?
These QBs play with 21 other guys, O and D and our OC and DC stunk the place out in both games.
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
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In comment 15377776 bw in dc said:
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PFF, nothing will.
Was he better than Bridgewater game one? No.
Heinicki game two? I don’t know there either…
Do you think that football in a one player game, like tennis or golf?
These QBs play with 21 other guys, O and D and our OC and DC stunk the place out in both games.
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
Was he better than Bridgewater game one? No.
Heinicki game two? I don’t know there either…
"PFF disagrees with my narrative, PFF must be wrong"
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Jones was terrible against Denver. Terrible.
The Giants didn’t pick Sam Darnold. Get over it already and move on.
Darnold wasn't the guy I wanted. And I have moved on - being a Giants fan now is just about trying to understand the errors they make and how it leads to the terrible football we've been subjected to.
15-35. I wonder how bad it has to get before everyone acknowledges this disaster.
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In comment 15377891 Go Terps said:
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Jones was terrible against Denver. Terrible.
The Giants didn’t pick Sam Darnold. Get over it already and move on.
Darnold wasn't the guy I wanted. And I have moved on - being a Giants fan now is just about trying to understand the errors they make and how it leads to the terrible football we've been subjected to.
15-35. I wonder how bad it has to get before everyone acknowledges this disaster.
I don't think you're alone in thinking 15-35 is a disaster. I don't think you are alone in trying to understand the errors. Your perspective and narrative is what is setting you apart.
Your posts portray that the Giants are only capable of performing negatively unless x happens.
You might not be wrong...but it is entirely possible that good things do happen that we can build off of and that x might not always be the reason for losing.
It seems you don't communicate any positives you see.
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?
Your posts portray that the Giants are only capable of performing negatively unless x happens.
You might not be wrong...but it is entirely possible that good things do happen that we can build off of and that x might not always be the reason for losing.
It seems you don't communicate any positives you see.
I said Jones played well in Washington.
People have been grasping for reasons to identify "improvement", "growth", and the "arrow pointing up" in the face of losses for years on this board. The flawed methodologies that characterize this organization haven't changed - looking for positives in the face of poor results...THAT is narrative.
15-35, 0 days over .500 since 2016 - that is not narrative. That is fact. If the Giants were a good, well run team I'd be here saying they are a good, well run team. I'd be happy to say that as I root for them to win.
But they are a bad, poorly run team. Jones has been a bad quarterback. Barkley has been a disaster. These are facts, not narrative.
So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
In an honest moment, I am fairly sure you don't buy this ranking...
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PFF, nothing will.
Was he better than Bridgewater game one? No.
Heinicki game two? I don’t know there either…
"PFF disagrees with my narrative, PFF must be wrong"
Okay, so what is my narrative du jour these days?
Look, I get the tactic you are trying to play with this narrative buzzword, but it's getting stale and some new material is needed...
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In comment 15377776 bw in dc said:
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PFF, nothing will.
Was he better than Bridgewater game one? No.
Heinicki game two? I don’t know there either…
"PFF disagrees with my narrative, PFF must be wrong"
Okay, so what is my narrative du jour these days?
Look, I get the tactic you are trying to play with this narrative buzzword, but it's getting stale and some new material is needed...
Where's the lie? And your narrative is always the same, so it's not a narrative du jour.
But the bar for many here on Moral Victory Interactive is very, very low.
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Okay, so what is my narrative du jour these days?
Look, I get the tactic you are trying to play with this narrative buzzword, but it's getting stale and some new material is needed...
Where's the lie? And your narrative is always the same, so it's not a narrative du jour.
The lie is Jones is the second ranked QB in the NFL.
FWIW, if PFF said Jones was the 25th ranked QB in the league, I would find that equally absurd right now.
Jones is playing pretty good football. He now needs to play as well against the rest of the league as he does against WFT.
Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
You made a post in another thread that you were going to quit watching the team because of coaching. I believe I have that right.
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In comment 15377774 Strahan91 said:
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.
Haha, just fired up some popcorn and cracked a beer.
Did you actually?
Anyone that's watched Carr play knows this is a ridiculous ranking.
he was cracking a beer to sit back and watch the reactions from people like you. Not to celebrate Jones' performance thus far.
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Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
His YPA would be higher if Garrett called plays in the opener like he did verse WFT. Either way, it's a small sample.
It is promising though because Denver has a very good defense and we know WFT is at least middle of the pack. Lets see how he does against one of the bottom dwellers. I don't know if you play fantasy, but generally speaking, guys tend to put up a lot better stats depending on who they play. The Eagles with that scrub Jalen put up 32 were barely functional at home after the 49ers woke up.
We've kicked this around when Darnold got traded. If the Jets could garner a second rounder for SD, I have to imagine we would get at least that for Jones...
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Dude, give me a break. You are going to tell me Heineke was better than Jones on Thursday night? If so I'd like some of what you are smoking. The guy had all day to throw every play, Jones had a run called back and a number of dropped passes including a huge TD to Slayton. Those two plays were an 8 point swing. And it STILL came down to a FG gimme on a penalty.
And no I don't think Jones should be ranked ahead of Carr here (although I believe Carr has 3 fumbles so far this year). Carr has been playing really well. But he's not all that far behind. I know you hate the guy but holy shit you can't even give him even an ounce credit.
Three stats I look at these days for QBs are: QBR, YPA, and AY/A.
In those categories, Jones is:
9th in QBR
16th in YPA
14th in AY/A
Those seem much more reasonable.
There is a stat called ANY/A. It is like AY/A but it accounts for sacks and sack yardage. I'm keeping an eye on that one to see how it measures up against the three mentioned.
Curious, why YPA and YPC? Wouldn't YPC be a better metric, since anyone can throw long bad passes. Seems to me that the passes a QB actually completes (so throws well) should matter more?
Curious, why YPA and YPC? Wouldn't YPC be a better metric, since anyone can throw long bad passes. Seems to me that the passes a QB actually completes (so throws well) should matter more?
YPA is better than YPC because it smooths out the result by including incompletions.
Further, YPA it's been shown to be a very accurate measurement for success. Teams that have the higher YPA tend to be the team that wins. There is more to it, but that's been the general trend.
A very good compliment is AY/A because that accounts for TDs and INTs.
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So is this the portion of the Jones debate where someone suggests Jones is only 1/11th of the offense? And he shouldn’t be any more accountable than the LG?
But to answer your question, yes, I do understand that football is a team game and a lot has to happen to get to success.
But the QB is the vital position in the sport and more often than not the play of the QB goes a long way to determining the outcome of a game…
Right, and our QB is ranked 2nd by PFF...which suggests that some of the other 11 play like shit. Now you're getting it
In an honest moment, I am fairly sure you don't buy this ranking...
No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
There has been plenty of commentary the last two weeks about the defensive struggles. And how they haven't lived up to their expectations. I have no problem saying we lost to WFT because they made Heinicke look like Joe Montana. I'm a Graham guy, so I am surprised what we are looking at.
Chiefs do have excellent skill players. But you do realize the reason the get so much space, and it looks so easy, is because the defense has is so concerned about Mahomes making EVERY throw. You can't take any part of the field away from him because he can get the ball everywhere.
Jones, unfortunately, doesn't have that skill. Few do. But it's a point worth making because just because you have weapons doesn't mean you will have the similar success as other teams with weapons.
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No, I don't. But I do believe he still could be the future and at least deserves to play out his rookie contract. I think that he is capable of big games. What I don't see is players around him making plays. Watching Kelce go 70 yards practically by himself lets me know that nobody other than Jones on this team is capable of making big plays. It just perplexes me that there are so many people that shit on Jones when there are barely any threads that shit on all our defensive players that are making big money. I have turned on Gettleman. He built a loser.
There has been plenty of commentary the last two weeks about the defensive struggles. And how they haven't lived up to their expectations. I have no problem saying we lost to WFT because they made Heinicke look like Joe Montana. I'm a Graham guy, so I am surprised what we are looking at.
Chiefs do have excellent skill players. But you do realize the reason the get so much space, and it looks so easy, is because the defense has is so concerned about Mahomes making EVERY throw. You can't take any part of the field away from him because he can get the ball everywhere.
Jones, unfortunately, doesn't have that skill. Few do. But it's a point worth making because just because you have weapons doesn't mean you will have the similar success as other teams with weapons.
I thought Graham had it figured out last year. We will see if he can right the ship.
It isn't just the Chiefs skill players that are making plays. Just this week there were plenty of home run plays.
Buffalo's Singletary had a huge run right through Miami's defense. Jax had Jamal Agnew return a kick for a TD. Henry with a 60 yard TD run. Players make plays. They find the endzone. We have players dropping passes, not getting open, and running for 2 ypc.
The way I see it, this organization is on the brink of another teardown. It needs to be paying a big QB contract like it needs a hole in the head. Jones played well in Washington - he needs to be at least that good nearly all the time to merit getting paid. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.
At this point Jones is still a guy with an 8-20 record that's never beaten a team over .500.
If this team is sitting at 2-7 in a few weeks we can't be talking about Jones being the guy. It just makes no sense.
He's a good QB when he plays washington. When else was he a good QB?
1 touchdown a game is good now? He was held without a passing TD in half his games played last year. Go ahead and excuse that on talent not picking him up, but Daniel Jones was not a mid-round pick they're trying to turn into an NFL starter. He was Pick #6. The expectation is that the franchise revolves around you and you lead from the front on performance.
As long as people are willing to draw a false equivalence of Jones taking a long time to develop to quarterbacks who haven't even played a full season worth of games. as if it's some proof that we shouldn't have high expectations, this should continue to be a point of argument.
Golladay didn’t play well, but the signing is already worth it getting in his grill. That big PI to him was an audible hot call, it was probably another curl route. I’m really hoping DJ just starts taking things over. Garrett was solid Thursday, but definitely still a ton of room for improvement. I’m giving him a pass for now because Graham has been laughably bad. Whoever said DJ is getting most the ire when the defense has been 90 percent of the problem nailed it.
Really?
KG dropped a fly that would have been a long gain, Slayton scored a TD on a go, and Slayton almost had a TD on an out and up. Plus, DJ hit Shep on numerous crossing/drag routes and Shep got got YAC.
Slayton has a 33 yard completion.
Smith had a 21 yard completion.
Shep had a 21 yard completion.
Let's look at the Rams since McVay is an offensive innovator and know he has Stafford. Kupp had a 44 yarder, Henderson had 23 yarder, and Woods had a 16 yarder.
Gee, what a huge difference between McVay's attack and Garrett's...
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designed to. Garret is obsessed with down and distance which kills chances for big plays and YAC. NFL is all about YAC now and we barely get any because Garrett wants to run 100 curls a game.
Really?
KG dropped a fly that would have been a long gain, Slayton scored a TD on a go, and Slayton almost had a TD on an out and up. Plus, DJ hit Shep on numerous crossing/drag routes and Shep got got YAC.
Slayton has a 33 yard completion.
Smith had a 21 yard completion.
Shep had a 21 yard completion.
Let's look at the Rams since McVay is an offensive innovator and know he has Stafford. Kupp had a 44 yarder, Henderson had 23 yarder, and Woods had a 16 yarder.
Gee, what a huge difference between McVay's attack and Garrett's...
Like I said, it was much better this week. And exactly why we saw more success.
Are we seriously comparing these two offenses schematically ? They don’t resemble each other at all. When’s the last time curls and sticks was a staple in the Rams offense? When’s the last time we put defenders in conflict in zone? When’s the last time we moved the pocket? We should definitely be moving it behind Andrew Thomas now, but I know we have a better hope of watching pigs fly. Garret was much better this week, but there’s still room for improvement. It was said an another thread “amazing” yeah no. It was solid and did look much more modern both schematically and calling plays. I don’t want to see the reverse on the edge of fg range ever again and we leaned on running out of tight in the redzone last year. Well zero chance of that happening with Saquon and this OL.
I don’t have a problem trying it next week out the gates, but as soon as it doesn’t work. We need to get out of out. The Bucs tried against the Falcons and they couldn’t do it and they are much better than us there. If they look at the tape this week and think they are going to, I’ll pretty much lose hope in Judge tbh. Just tells me he has a stick up his ass for execution and not scheme.
I followed it up with the. Lear context of passing touchdowns. Don't cherry pick.