also see instances for Jones to be coached up to be more aggressive, instead of leaving deeper completions on the field. Watching this video and listening to Warner actually pisses me off how much money these guys earn while being lousy at their jobs.
Your last sentence isn't limited to the NFL. Innovation and change come really, really hard to some individuals.
I'm sure you've run into it a few times on the technology front.
RE: RE: at some point, you have to wonder what Judge sees in Garrett
Maybe it's not Judge... Garrett was clearly an ownership hire.
It doesn’t matter who hired him, JJ is still the head coach and Garrett’s boss. Garrett answers to him and JJ is responsible for the offense he designed and runs.
is not in the giants offensive playbook......KW makes it glaringly obvious how poor the qb to wr communication is. Most likely not to improve till '22 with a big changeover in coaching and management/scouting.
Maybe it's not Judge... Garrett was clearly an ownership hire.
Yeah I guess. But Judge will get fired if the team doesn't start winning. He had a quick trigger on Colombo (different circumstances). If Judge is as smart as he likes to let us think his, then he has to see the weaknesses of what the offense is doing. Why such a long leash for Garrett, who is essentially asking Jones to succeed on a "high" difficulty setting?
To me, the longer the offense is left languishing like this, the less inclined I am to give Judge a pass because Mara likes Garrett. He's the HC and he's responsible for all of it.
It really hammers home how much Garrett is holding this team back. Yes, Jones wasn't perfect by any means and has areas to improve in but when your coaches aren't setting you up for success then that is a problem..
I pointed this out last year. We all dreaded the all hitches play calls. Then people criticized Jones for holding the ball too long and taking hits. Well, when you have to make a decision pre snap and it doesn't work out great then you can't move onto a second option because of the timing of the routes. Therefore, if the receiver didn't win his battle then Jones only had 2 options. One, force the ball anyway and hope for the best or, two, hold it and take the hit. That's horrible coaching.
In this video you see it way too much where Garrett is not helping the offense out because of either the routes run or how they are run. It doesn't put DJ in a good position.
I'm at work so I only watched the first two plays, but they are clearly bad decisions by Jones. The play design doesn't help but he had easier completions for more yardage where he didn't throw it.
Every QB in the league has the physical tools. The good QBs make the right decisions.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
It's the QBs job at the line to make the decision about what's likely to be there given the play call and the defense, then adjust accordingly post-snap.
If "X was wide open" there's at least a chance that could/should have been figured out based on the pre-snap coverage. Critics of Jones have said even going back to college he too often gets stuck on his "first read" and that's exactly what we're talking about. If it's not going to be there, stop wasting time waiting for it.
Progressions begin even before the ball is snapped.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
It's the QBs job at the line to make the decision about what's likely to be there given the play call and the defense, then adjust accordingly post-snap.
If "X was wide open" there's at least a chance that could/should have been figured out based on the pre-snap coverage. Critics of Jones have said even going back to college he too often gets stuck on his "first read" and that's exactly what we're talking about. If it's not going to be there, stop wasting time waiting for it.
Progressions begin even before the ball is snapped.
For sure but when every route breaks simultaneously you are hedging the success of the entire play on that presnap decision. You want him to come off and find his next read, which by design should have been hit at the same time as the primary. It's doing a disservice to what Jones' strengths actually are.
The reason why there were more explosive plays by Jones in 2019 were because his reads ran high to low. The Shurmur offense had Jones reading the safeties at the snap and deciding on if he had a favorable matchup down the field FIRST. If they took it, he had the option to progress low, which he excelled at.
It lead to more explosive plays, and points ..and i don't want to hear about the talent around him as that 2019 offensive line was worse than what he had to deal with last year.
We hear all the time good coaching plays to their players strengths...route concepts and designing progressions that fit Daniel absolutely fall into that category.
One, I disagree completely with him criticizing Jones for taking the shot to golladay on the play that was PI. Even though Golladay got held up at the LOS, he as open, Jones probably completes the pass but for the PI, and that throw is the exact reason you have a big, physical receiver like Golladay.
Two, do we EVER run crossing patterns? I have never seen a team use them less even just to influence defenders. Those patterns seem to be a staple of almost every offensive scheme in the NFL ... but us. And one of the few times we do it, we get a biog completion to SS. Mind boggling
RE: This stupid narrative around here despite obvious who's is to blame--J
Garret Garret Garret. Meanwhile that was one play Kurt said he didn't like the play ; the others were Jones not throwing to one on one; Jones not throwing someone open over the middle; Jones settling for a check down when there was a big play potentially developing; Jones throwing a five yard completion behind Shep instead of hitting on the run for a big play. Same on the wide open play that was a drop TD wide open.
Now the other 20 is not talked about. Some bad on Jones. Coach, Wrs. But
To call it a fair video show some positives As there were a ton of them.
No.
This was a tight game that the Giants should have won but found a way to lose. This video does a good job showing the many ways the Giants could and should have done something different to win.
This is a fair video, because it shows how bad teams do just enough to lose.
One, I disagree completely with him criticizing Jones for taking the shot to golladay on the play that was PI. Even though Golladay got held up at the LOS, he as open, Jones probably completes the pass but for the PI, and that throw is the exact reason you have a big, physical receiver like Golladay.
Two, do we EVER run crossing patterns? I have never seen a team use them less even just to influence defenders. Those patterns seem to be a staple of almost every offensive scheme in the NFL ... but us. And one of the few times we do it, we get a biog completion to SS. Mind boggling
We did Thursday and got a 19 yard reception out of it. Toney and Shep ran crossers and jones had options for both. The scheme created the play opportunity.
Now the other 20 is not talked about. Some bad on Jones. Coach, Wrs. But
To call it a fair video show some positives As there were a ton of them.
Removing the flaws in scheme, decision-making, and execution is how bad teams become good ones.
It's not the Joe Judge Report on MSG when he picks 3 plays that worked and breaks them down while Bob Papa grins at him. This is a former elite QB picking up on some glaring issues in Garrett's offensive scheme and how Jones runs it.
It really hammers home how much Garrett is holding this team back. Yes, Jones wasn't perfect by any means and has areas to improve in but when your coaches aren't setting you up for success then that is a problem..
I pointed this out last year. We all dreaded the all hitches play calls. Then people criticized Jones for holding the ball too long and taking hits. Well, when you have to make a decision pre snap and it doesn't work out great then you can't move onto a second option because of the timing of the routes. Therefore, if the receiver didn't win his battle then Jones only had 2 options. One, force the ball anyway and hope for the best or, two, hold it and take the hit. That's horrible coaching.
In this video you see it way too much where Garrett is not helping the offense out because of either the routes run or how they are run. It doesn't put DJ in a good position.
I'm at work so I only watched the first two plays, but they are clearly bad decisions by Jones. The play design doesn't help but he had easier completions for more yardage where he didn't throw it.
Every QB in the league has the physical tools. The good QBs make the right decisions.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
In the first two plays, it is clear from the defense Washington was playing that there are one on one matchups that Jones should have looked to. The throw over the middle on the second throw was clearly a bad decision that he should have known. The first play, Jones would have an easier time if the route at the top was a comeback, but he still should have gone there.
...very much. It actually makes me feel good that JG can make DJ right in multiple spots.
Nowhere does this breakdown make DJ look bad. There are always plays that a QB would like to play again.
As he alludes to, most plays are designed to beat something specific. Man beaters, C2, C3, Quads etc...Read one guy and make that dude wrong. This is why it sometimes looks like he (or any QB) is "birdogging a WR." They're birdogging a defensive player, not a WR.
ie: If I go Trips to the field with #1 on a 5yd Dig, #2 on a 2 step slant and #3 to the Corner, I'm reading the CB.
If he drops C3/C4, I take the Dig, if he sits, I hit the corner.
Poor spacing and a lack of influence broke some perfectly good opportunities.
Here's an idea. How the 6th pick in the draft starts acting like the 6th pick in the draft? You know...the player who is supposed to have a high level skill set that helps make chicken salad.
JFC this nonsense never ends. Like Jones and Garrett don't talk daily about the plays Jones likes and prefers. And then Garrett doesn't create a game-plan around those preferences based on the opponent.
On the first play, wonder why Warner doesn't he talk about the check down option on the right flat to SB? If Jones goes there, SB has all kinds of real estate...
Notice on the second play, Jones NEVER looks right. Never. He is glued to the left side and takes the easy check. Had he been a bit more aggressive, he has on easy out to Slay on the left. Like Warner states.
Warner nails it on play - "throw the receive open..." Instead, Jones shows his robotic nature, can't buy another half second, and misses the chance for slant/TD to KG.
On that F Post, in some defense of Jones, Solder is beaten like a drum by Sweat. So you can see Jones panic a bit and short arm the ball to Shep. If Jones could have been more composed, that's a big play - like Warner said...
And Warner is spot on with that PIN route where Slayton has the easy TD. While I think Slay could have had it - I give that a 50/50 outcome - Jones could have given that ball much more air for an easier grab. Excellent analysis there by Warner.
On the next to last play, Warner on Jones: "He bails (out of the pocket) too soon..." Very true. And then Jones makes a poor throw on the run, which surprised me because he's usually pretty good at...
Jason Garrett and Daniel Jones. Pretty much what we knew.
Lots of folks here were dunking on DJs doubters after Jones won the PFF man of the week award. But the film tells the same old story, late with the ball and poor pre snap and post snap reads. And while I’m super happy Jones had a better game, it was still a loss.
As far as Garrett goes, he was never brought in here to be an offensive mastermind. He was a hedge against Judge and his inexperience. But now there’s a problem because neither Judge nor Garrett are schemers. And that shows up on the tape too. I think we’re all starting to get concerned with Judge who’s had two bad games in a row this season.
Both Jones and Garrett had much better games against the WFT. I’m still not sure though that they were good games, and undeniably, they were not winning games. But progress does count and hopefully Jones and Garrett will be even better against Atlanta and bring home a win.
he is correct about a lot of things. That is what made him so successful as a QB in this league without the cannon for an arm... well that and great accuracy, reading, studying, and with a lightning release time.
Saying that the play that people want to blame Jones on to Slayton wide open. Literally right after Jones lets go of that ball he is hammered. Could he really have softened that throw up before the defender got there? I think it would have been close. Plus when he throws this pass the defender is on Slayton. He knows Slayton will beat this one one one play with speed. When he starts his throwing motion there is no way of knowing that DB isn't going to follow. In fact with no Safety over the top it would appear to be clear man coverage and your option is to throw the ball in stride as he beats his man with speed. Clearly the DB thought he had help while someone else thought he would be running with Slayton. If he throws it soft and the DB followed Slayton then Slayton has to slow up which may have given the DB time to catch up to make a play on the ball. With no safety over the top that should be the QBs expectation there. No one should be running that open in the NFL. If the throw was after he was wide open before he was fully past the DB then yes that is on him lay it out, but I don't believe that to be the case. That throw would have been called perfect with a chasing DB and Slayton catching it.
I am sorry to the Danny bashers, the Garrett bashers, and the Slayton apologists who were on the game thread. That is completely on Slayton as he has to catch that throw right in his hands in stride.
and it really has just been the past five years where we are getting really, really good information about plays like this. For years I've tried to do this kind of stuff on my own, going over the all-22 from the coaches tape and trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I just love the media that is being produced right now. It's so much better than what the beat reporters give us.
I do appreciate the notifications, transactions, etc., but nothing beats the breakdowns like these.
On that Slayton play, I timed the time Jones had to pass the ball. It was three seconds on the dot. That's a lot of time. He had a pocket, stepped up, and delivered. Yes, he was hit, but that did NOT effect that throw at all...
On that Slayton play, I timed the time Jones had to pass the ball. It was three seconds on the dot. That's a lot of time. He had a pocket, stepped up, and delivered. Yes, he was hit, but that did NOT effect that throw at all...
I think it's fair to say that it was a catchable throw, and I'd go as far to say that Slayton SHOULD have caught it, but that doesn't mean Jones couldn't have thrown it better too.
On that Slayton play, I timed the time Jones had to pass the ball. It was three seconds on the dot. That's a lot of time. He had a pocket, stepped up, and delivered. Yes, he was hit, but that did NOT effect that throw at all...
I think it's fair to say that it was a catchable throw, and I'd go as far to say that Slayton SHOULD have caught it, but that doesn't mean Jones couldn't have thrown it better too.
It was. But I think it was right on the very edge of Slayton's catching radius. Which, to me, makes it a 50/50 ball. So I can buy both sides of this one - DS should have caught it or it was just outside his range.
Using hindsight, it's a TD with a little more air under it from Jones...
Think I see his one turnover on 50% of these threads. Even his completions are mocked when they are a little bit behind a receiver regardless if he is getting hit or not. Watched Herbert two weeks in a row have terrible 4th quarters but all the hype is about his promise. Dak has had several bone headed mistakes this year, no one going play by play on him. Even the pathetic outing by the Jets and Jags new QBs have been given a pass. The guy basically gets bashed and nit picked on every play, based on nothing more than the guy who drafted him. Everyone wants him to fail because he had the audacity to trade that bitch to Cleveland.
Think I see his one turnover on 50% of these threads. Even his completions are mocked when they are a little bit behind a receiver regardless if he is getting hit or not. Watched Herbert two weeks in a row have terrible 4th quarters but all the hype is about his promise. Dak has had several bone headed mistakes this year, no one going play by play on him. Even the pathetic outing by the Jets and Jags new QBs have been given a pass. The guy basically gets bashed and nit picked on every play, based on nothing more than the guy who drafted him. Everyone wants him to fail because he had the audacity to trade that bitch to Cleveland.
Do you spend a lot of time on other teams message boards to know this?
Seems like something you'd really only know by spending time around other fans of other teams.
Plenty of Dolphins fans get on Tua for looking average.
Reminded me of a classic USC QB throwing to speedy wide open WRs similar to Lienert Sanchez Barkley and Booty. Then would have an injury anytime they played a almost comparable team. Never understood the hype around him. With that being said Burrow has surprised me with more pose than I thought he would have. There are reasons to dislike any QB, seems like it is open season on Jones even when he plays well all stemming from a dislike of the GM that drafted him.
It just makes no sense that Joe Judge doesn't see and know this
and that the people other than Garrett on his staff don't see and know this. They all watch hours of film every day on their team and other teams.
So why are we 18 games into an offense that EVERYONE who has an all 22 (a podcaster or a HOF QB) can see doesn't work, is easy to defend and is making the QB that the organization is desperate to prop up look bad and nothing is being done?
I'm a Joe Judge fan and I really want him to succeed and be the Giants coach for a long time but he's earning his own demise. At this point the out dated offense and the lack of aggression on defense is on him.
Aggressiveness (AGG%):
Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts.
@Ourlads_Sy
#Giants QB Daniel Jones leads the NFL in aggressiveness % (23.2%):
@NextGenStats
What does that mean?
1) His targets can't separate
2) The passing scheme is poor
3) Jones is having a hard time making reads
4) Combination of all.
Best QBs are under 14% BTW. Mahomes 7.5%
I'm just going to assume it is an idiotic stat since the top-5 are:
1) Daniel Jones
2) Tua
3) Roethlisberger
4) Heinicke
5) Tannehill
Mahomes is last.
This is not new for Jones. It is a trend I noticed since 2018 and thought it might be worth keeping an eye on. This is a fairly new stat, but generally speaking, the better QBs are in the bottom half of this stat (most aggressive). The ones in the top half are bad QBs or good QBs in bad offensive schemes/line.
The easy answer is blame the receivers; but I always thought that was the lazy answer, if you look at separation stats our WRs have consistently been middle of the pack in the separation.
I think it's a combo of a few things, poor reads, poor scheme, and poor line play.
A good case study for this stat is Matt Stafford. Consistently in the top 10-15 in this stat on the Lions and currently one of the least aggressive QBs after two games.
But I think Shurmur the OC/play caller would be better for Jones. IMO that was on display with Bridgewater and the Broncos in game 1
He gets the QB on the move often with waggles and roll outs, and seems like the QB always has 2 good options to choose from at different levels with his receivers, instead of basic patterns like the all curls referred to
But no point pining for him now, that ship has sailed. The best thing for this offense in the short term would be Saquon to shake off the rust and start finding his holes and cut back lanes to start putting pressure on defense
Shurmur was a Good Offensive Designer---play calling is situational, and he was MNEH.
When did Shurmur become this great OC for the Giants?
If I recall correctly most around here wanted his head on a stick for calling his own plays.I.e. NO ONE thought he was any good at it. Now that he goes to another team and has had some success and beat the giants on opening day, he was a good OC? Is it really that hard to believe that Bridgewater just played really well?
RE: When did Shurmur become this great OC for the Giants?
If I recall correctly most around here wanted his head on a stick for calling his own plays.I.e. NO ONE thought he was any good at it. Now that he goes to another team and has had some success and beat the giants on opening day, he was a good OC? Is it really that hard to believe that Bridgewater just played really well?
No, that would mean DJ played really well his rookie year.
RE: When did Shurmur become this great OC for the Giants?
If I recall correctly most around here wanted his head on a stick for calling his own plays.I.e. NO ONE thought he was any good at it. Now that he goes to another team and has had some success and beat the giants on opening day, he was a good OC? Is it really that hard to believe that Bridgewater just played really well?
Shurmur was credited by more than a few around here for having Jones ready to play quickly. I think that’s his real strength - getting a QB prepared and building an offense that tries to exploit those QB strengths.
In terms of actual game management, Shurmur showed that he wasn’t ready for that responsibility.
Warners job is to pick apart the passing game and he chose a handful
of passes in a game in which Jones threw 32 passes. In fact, it seems like 6 of the 10 passes that KW highlighter were incompletions. He only had 10 incompletions.
I didn't watch that thinking Jones is a backup and will never be a quality starting QB. I did watch and think that he needs to clean some of that stuff up and make better decisions, but that will come with experience and coaching.
Schematically, I can't really argue with KW as this is a HOF QB that's played for a long time, but the WR's clearly need to do better too as well as the OL. A lot of those throws were because a defender was in DJ face.
I'm still encouraged by what I am seeing. DJ has gotten better and he still has plenty of room to grow.
RE: RE: When did Shurmur become this great OC for the Giants?
If I recall correctly most around here wanted his head on a stick for calling his own plays.I.e. NO ONE thought he was any good at it. Now that he goes to another team and has had some success and beat the giants on opening day, he was a good OC? Is it really that hard to believe that Bridgewater just played really well?
Shurmur was credited by more than a few around here for having Jones ready to play quickly. I think that’s his real strength - getting a QB prepared and building an offense that tries to exploit those QB strengths.
In terms of actual game management, Shurmur showed that he wasn’t ready for that responsibility.
No he got Jones ready with the limited skill set he had. just like he did that before as QB coach. That is not OC.
Your last sentence isn't limited to the NFL. Innovation and change come really, really hard to some individuals.
I'm sure you've run into it a few times on the technology front.
Quote:
..
Maybe it's not Judge... Garrett was clearly an ownership hire.
It doesn’t matter who hired him, JJ is still the head coach and Garrett’s boss. Garrett answers to him and JJ is responsible for the offense he designed and runs.
It's hard to watch the breakdown and not question how Garrett doesn't see the bigger design picture.
Someone please show it to Joe Judge.
It's hard to watch the breakdown and not question how Garrett doesn't see the bigger design picture.
I have to just think it's stubbornness, he's had success in the past, so change be damned.
Quote:
..
Maybe it's not Judge... Garrett was clearly an ownership hire.
Yeah I guess. But Judge will get fired if the team doesn't start winning. He had a quick trigger on Colombo (different circumstances). If Judge is as smart as he likes to let us think his, then he has to see the weaknesses of what the offense is doing. Why such a long leash for Garrett, who is essentially asking Jones to succeed on a "high" difficulty setting?
To me, the longer the offense is left languishing like this, the less inclined I am to give Judge a pass because Mara likes Garrett. He's the HC and he's responsible for all of it.
Quote:
It really hammers home how much Garrett is holding this team back. Yes, Jones wasn't perfect by any means and has areas to improve in but when your coaches aren't setting you up for success then that is a problem..
I pointed this out last year. We all dreaded the all hitches play calls. Then people criticized Jones for holding the ball too long and taking hits. Well, when you have to make a decision pre snap and it doesn't work out great then you can't move onto a second option because of the timing of the routes. Therefore, if the receiver didn't win his battle then Jones only had 2 options. One, force the ball anyway and hope for the best or, two, hold it and take the hit. That's horrible coaching.
In this video you see it way too much where Garrett is not helping the offense out because of either the routes run or how they are run. It doesn't put DJ in a good position.
I'm at work so I only watched the first two plays, but they are clearly bad decisions by Jones. The play design doesn't help but he had easier completions for more yardage where he didn't throw it.
Every QB in the league has the physical tools. The good QBs make the right decisions.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
It's the QBs job at the line to make the decision about what's likely to be there given the play call and the defense, then adjust accordingly post-snap.
If "X was wide open" there's at least a chance that could/should have been figured out based on the pre-snap coverage. Critics of Jones have said even going back to college he too often gets stuck on his "first read" and that's exactly what we're talking about. If it's not going to be there, stop wasting time waiting for it.
Progressions begin even before the ball is snapped.
Quote:
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
It's the QBs job at the line to make the decision about what's likely to be there given the play call and the defense, then adjust accordingly post-snap.
If "X was wide open" there's at least a chance that could/should have been figured out based on the pre-snap coverage. Critics of Jones have said even going back to college he too often gets stuck on his "first read" and that's exactly what we're talking about. If it's not going to be there, stop wasting time waiting for it.
Progressions begin even before the ball is snapped.
For sure but when every route breaks simultaneously you are hedging the success of the entire play on that presnap decision. You want him to come off and find his next read, which by design should have been hit at the same time as the primary. It's doing a disservice to what Jones' strengths actually are.
The reason why there were more explosive plays by Jones in 2019 were because his reads ran high to low. The Shurmur offense had Jones reading the safeties at the snap and deciding on if he had a favorable matchup down the field FIRST. If they took it, he had the option to progress low, which he excelled at.
It lead to more explosive plays, and points ..and i don't want to hear about the talent around him as that 2019 offensive line was worse than what he had to deal with last year.
We hear all the time good coaching plays to their players strengths...route concepts and designing progressions that fit Daniel absolutely fall into that category.
Two, do we EVER run crossing patterns? I have never seen a team use them less even just to influence defenders. Those patterns seem to be a staple of almost every offensive scheme in the NFL ... but us. And one of the few times we do it, we get a biog completion to SS. Mind boggling
Agreed. Everyone wants to blame the OC.
What a mess.
Upside is I didn't know Warner was doing these. Loved him as a player.
That is all.
To call it a fair video show some positives As there were a ton of them.
To call it a fair video show some positives As there were a ton of them.
No.
This was a tight game that the Giants should have won but found a way to lose. This video does a good job showing the many ways the Giants could and should have done something different to win.
This is a fair video, because it shows how bad teams do just enough to lose.
Two, do we EVER run crossing patterns? I have never seen a team use them less even just to influence defenders. Those patterns seem to be a staple of almost every offensive scheme in the NFL ... but us. And one of the few times we do it, we get a biog completion to SS. Mind boggling
We did Thursday and got a 19 yard reception out of it. Toney and Shep ran crossers and jones had options for both. The scheme created the play opportunity.
They don't do this enough.
To call it a fair video show some positives As there were a ton of them.
Removing the flaws in scheme, decision-making, and execution is how bad teams become good ones.
It's not the Joe Judge Report on MSG when he picks 3 plays that worked and breaks them down while Bob Papa grins at him. This is a former elite QB picking up on some glaring issues in Garrett's offensive scheme and how Jones runs it.
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In comment 15379188 robbieballs2003 said:
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It really hammers home how much Garrett is holding this team back. Yes, Jones wasn't perfect by any means and has areas to improve in but when your coaches aren't setting you up for success then that is a problem..
I pointed this out last year. We all dreaded the all hitches play calls. Then people criticized Jones for holding the ball too long and taking hits. Well, when you have to make a decision pre snap and it doesn't work out great then you can't move onto a second option because of the timing of the routes. Therefore, if the receiver didn't win his battle then Jones only had 2 options. One, force the ball anyway and hope for the best or, two, hold it and take the hit. That's horrible coaching.
In this video you see it way too much where Garrett is not helping the offense out because of either the routes run or how they are run. It doesn't put DJ in a good position.
I'm at work so I only watched the first two plays, but they are clearly bad decisions by Jones. The play design doesn't help but he had easier completions for more yardage where he didn't throw it.
Every QB in the league has the physical tools. The good QBs make the right decisions.
You do realize that playing QB isnt playing Madden where you can see every receiver at once.
When you have 3 or 4 routes breaking at the same time, and your first read is covered it's literally impossible to go through progressions and hit the next read as they are not open anymore.
This kind of analysis from fans where they say "look he had X wide open and didn't see it!"...well no shit, he was on his first read. It's why there NEEDS to be multiple deeper routes in this offense to allow Jones to move off of during his progressions.
No one is saying the kid is Brady, but the play design can be brutal at times.
In the first two plays, it is clear from the defense Washington was playing that there are one on one matchups that Jones should have looked to. The throw over the middle on the second throw was clearly a bad decision that he should have known. The first play, Jones would have an easier time if the route at the top was a comeback, but he still should have gone there.
These are Warner's opinion's, not mine.
Nowhere does this breakdown make DJ look bad. There are always plays that a QB would like to play again.
As he alludes to, most plays are designed to beat something specific. Man beaters, C2, C3, Quads etc...Read one guy and make that dude wrong. This is why it sometimes looks like he (or any QB) is "birdogging a WR." They're birdogging a defensive player, not a WR.
ie: If I go Trips to the field with #1 on a 5yd Dig, #2 on a 2 step slant and #3 to the Corner, I'm reading the CB.
If he drops C3/C4, I take the Dig, if he sits, I hit the corner.
Poor spacing and a lack of influence broke some perfectly good opportunities.
JFC this nonsense never ends. Like Jones and Garrett don't talk daily about the plays Jones likes and prefers. And then Garrett doesn't create a game-plan around those preferences based on the opponent.
On the first play, wonder why Warner doesn't he talk about the check down option on the right flat to SB? If Jones goes there, SB has all kinds of real estate...
Notice on the second play, Jones NEVER looks right. Never. He is glued to the left side and takes the easy check. Had he been a bit more aggressive, he has on easy out to Slay on the left. Like Warner states.
Warner nails it on play - "throw the receive open..." Instead, Jones shows his robotic nature, can't buy another half second, and misses the chance for slant/TD to KG.
On that F Post, in some defense of Jones, Solder is beaten like a drum by Sweat. So you can see Jones panic a bit and short arm the ball to Shep. If Jones could have been more composed, that's a big play - like Warner said...
And Warner is spot on with that PIN route where Slayton has the easy TD. While I think Slay could have had it - I give that a 50/50 outcome - Jones could have given that ball much more air for an easier grab. Excellent analysis there by Warner.
On the next to last play, Warner on Jones: "He bails (out of the pocket) too soon..." Very true. And then Jones makes a poor throw on the run, which surprised me because he's usually pretty good at...
Maybe PFF should watch the tape with Warner... ;)
Lots of folks here were dunking on DJs doubters after Jones won the PFF man of the week award. But the film tells the same old story, late with the ball and poor pre snap and post snap reads. And while I’m super happy Jones had a better game, it was still a loss.
As far as Garrett goes, he was never brought in here to be an offensive mastermind. He was a hedge against Judge and his inexperience. But now there’s a problem because neither Judge nor Garrett are schemers. And that shows up on the tape too. I think we’re all starting to get concerned with Judge who’s had two bad games in a row this season.
Both Jones and Garrett had much better games against the WFT. I’m still not sure though that they were good games, and undeniably, they were not winning games. But progress does count and hopefully Jones and Garrett will be even better against Atlanta and bring home a win.
Good post, I like KWs film study, thank you!
Saying that the play that people want to blame Jones on to Slayton wide open. Literally right after Jones lets go of that ball he is hammered. Could he really have softened that throw up before the defender got there? I think it would have been close. Plus when he throws this pass the defender is on Slayton. He knows Slayton will beat this one one one play with speed. When he starts his throwing motion there is no way of knowing that DB isn't going to follow. In fact with no Safety over the top it would appear to be clear man coverage and your option is to throw the ball in stride as he beats his man with speed. Clearly the DB thought he had help while someone else thought he would be running with Slayton. If he throws it soft and the DB followed Slayton then Slayton has to slow up which may have given the DB time to catch up to make a play on the ball. With no safety over the top that should be the QBs expectation there. No one should be running that open in the NFL. If the throw was after he was wide open before he was fully past the DB then yes that is on him lay it out, but I don't believe that to be the case. That throw would have been called perfect with a chasing DB and Slayton catching it.
I am sorry to the Danny bashers, the Garrett bashers, and the Slayton apologists who were on the game thread. That is completely on Slayton as he has to catch that throw right in his hands in stride.
I do appreciate the notifications, transactions, etc., but nothing beats the breakdowns like these.
I think it's fair to say that it was a catchable throw, and I'd go as far to say that Slayton SHOULD have caught it, but that doesn't mean Jones couldn't have thrown it better too.
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On that Slayton play, I timed the time Jones had to pass the ball. It was three seconds on the dot. That's a lot of time. He had a pocket, stepped up, and delivered. Yes, he was hit, but that did NOT effect that throw at all...
I think it's fair to say that it was a catchable throw, and I'd go as far to say that Slayton SHOULD have caught it, but that doesn't mean Jones couldn't have thrown it better too.
It was. But I think it was right on the very edge of Slayton's catching radius. Which, to me, makes it a 50/50 ball. So I can buy both sides of this one - DS should have caught it or it was just outside his range.
Using hindsight, it's a TD with a little more air under it from Jones...
Jones was good, let’s hope the rest of the team catches up to him because he’s going to be here for a long time.
#Giants QB Daniel Jones leads the NFL in aggressiveness % (23.2%):
@NextGenStats
What does that mean?
1) His targets can't separate
2) The passing scheme is poor
3) Jones is having a hard time making reads
4) Combination of all.
Best QBs are under 14% BTW. Mahomes 7.5%
Do you spend a lot of time on other teams message boards to know this?
Seems like something you'd really only know by spending time around other fans of other teams.
Plenty of Dolphins fans get on Tua for looking average.
So why are we 18 games into an offense that EVERYONE who has an all 22 (a podcaster or a HOF QB) can see doesn't work, is easy to defend and is making the QB that the organization is desperate to prop up look bad and nothing is being done?
I'm a Joe Judge fan and I really want him to succeed and be the Giants coach for a long time but he's earning his own demise. At this point the out dated offense and the lack of aggression on defense is on him.
#Giants QB Daniel Jones leads the NFL in aggressiveness % (23.2%):
@NextGenStats
What does that mean?
1) His targets can't separate
2) The passing scheme is poor
3) Jones is having a hard time making reads
4) Combination of all.
Best QBs are under 14% BTW. Mahomes 7.5%
I'm just going to assume it is an idiotic stat since the top-5 are:
1) Daniel Jones
2) Tua
3) Roethlisberger
4) Heinicke
5) Tannehill
Mahomes is last.
Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts.
Based on Warner's breakdown and what we saw in the breakdowns of the Denver game it's both.
But remember with Golladay - his whole game is catching the ball while covered. Feels like a bad fit for Jones.
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@Ourlads_Sy
#Giants QB Daniel Jones leads the NFL in aggressiveness % (23.2%):
@NextGenStats
What does that mean?
1) His targets can't separate
2) The passing scheme is poor
3) Jones is having a hard time making reads
4) Combination of all.
Best QBs are under 14% BTW. Mahomes 7.5%
I'm just going to assume it is an idiotic stat since the top-5 are:
1) Daniel Jones
2) Tua
3) Roethlisberger
4) Heinicke
5) Tannehill
Mahomes is last.
This is not new for Jones. It is a trend I noticed since 2018 and thought it might be worth keeping an eye on. This is a fairly new stat, but generally speaking, the better QBs are in the bottom half of this stat (most aggressive). The ones in the top half are bad QBs or good QBs in bad offensive schemes/line.
The easy answer is blame the receivers; but I always thought that was the lazy answer, if you look at separation stats our WRs have consistently been middle of the pack in the separation.
I think it's a combo of a few things, poor reads, poor scheme, and poor line play.
A good case study for this stat is Matt Stafford. Consistently in the top 10-15 in this stat on the Lions and currently one of the least aggressive QBs after two games.
He gets the QB on the move often with waggles and roll outs, and seems like the QB always has 2 good options to choose from at different levels with his receivers, instead of basic patterns like the all curls referred to
But no point pining for him now, that ship has sailed. The best thing for this offense in the short term would be Saquon to shake off the rust and start finding his holes and cut back lanes to start putting pressure on defense
Shurmur was a Good Offensive Designer---play calling is situational, and he was MNEH.
No, that would mean DJ played really well his rookie year.
Shurmur was credited by more than a few around here for having Jones ready to play quickly. I think that’s his real strength - getting a QB prepared and building an offense that tries to exploit those QB strengths.
In terms of actual game management, Shurmur showed that he wasn’t ready for that responsibility.
I didn't watch that thinking Jones is a backup and will never be a quality starting QB. I did watch and think that he needs to clean some of that stuff up and make better decisions, but that will come with experience and coaching.
Schematically, I can't really argue with KW as this is a HOF QB that's played for a long time, but the WR's clearly need to do better too as well as the OL. A lot of those throws were because a defender was in DJ face.
I'm still encouraged by what I am seeing. DJ has gotten better and he still has plenty of room to grow.
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If I recall correctly most around here wanted his head on a stick for calling his own plays.I.e. NO ONE thought he was any good at it. Now that he goes to another team and has had some success and beat the giants on opening day, he was a good OC? Is it really that hard to believe that Bridgewater just played really well?
Shurmur was credited by more than a few around here for having Jones ready to play quickly. I think that’s his real strength - getting a QB prepared and building an offense that tries to exploit those QB strengths.
In terms of actual game management, Shurmur showed that he wasn’t ready for that responsibility.
No he got Jones ready with the limited skill set he had. just like he did that before as QB coach. That is not OC.