Jaime Eisner
@JaimeEisner
Updated 1st HC to be fired odds, courtesy of @betonline_ag:
Zac Taylor (+350)
Joe Judge (+450)
Mike Zimmer (+450)
Matt Nagy (+550)
Urban Meyer (+600)
Mike McCarthy (+1600)
Vic Fangio (+1600)
Mike Tomlin (+1800)
Dan Campbell (+2000)
Make of that what you will (if anything)
Yes, agree
Judge clearly has things to learn as far as being a HC game day BUT, there are a number of games we should have won but didn't purely on the play or lack thereof of an individual player. I can immediately think of EE (1st game vs Eagles last year) and then Lawrence jumping offsides (if he really did) against Washington. We had both those games if EE catches that ball and if Lawrence doesn't jump..
Overall there is No WAY Judge goes during or after this year.
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
Shortly like any week now, or shortly on a geologic time scale?
I sure hope Joe Judge's record after three seasons doesn't surpass the futility of Pat Shurmur's two seasons.
Meanwhile, we've only had more than 7 wins once since 2013.
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
Not many wins on the schedule through Thanksgiving..
Although I think McCarthy is best value on the list, he's getting a pass right now because his kicker bailed him out, but that was laughably bad. They are going to lose some games to bad coaching.
Although I think McCarthy is best value on the list, he's getting a pass right now because his kicker bailed him out, but that was laughably bad. They are going to lose some games to bad coaching.
To be fair, Zeuerlein cost them the game in Week 1 as well actually. But yes coaching by McCarthy is not good. Right now, Sirianni actually has been more sound of all the coaches through two weeks in NFCE.
Poor drafting
Poor approach in preseason resulting in poor start
Lack of player execution
Poor preparation
Poor game plans
Inability to adjust
I don’t know if any of the above represent a valid assessment. But all but one is on the coaching
However. I don’t think Judge will be fired, I don’t want him to be. If Giants continue to struggle, I tend to think DG, whose reign up to now by any objective standard is a failure, would be the main reason why.
Yeah its certainly a bad bet, and I think designed to take money from fans tbh. No way the Giants fire someone midseason in second year unless something ridiculous happens like Judge gets caught with child porn on his computer. Giants backers are notoriously low on them this year and I think they think placing money on him to get fired just feels good. I don't think any professional bettors take this type of bet unless they are acting on good information.
Just looking at the numbers, I'd say McCarthy is probably best value bet. Yeah they are 1-1, but they should be 0-2 too and if they are out the playoff race at any point at end, he'll be packing his bags.
I will say this, the offensive gameplans have been really good, don't know if its the analytics, McCarthy, or the OC, but attacking teams weaknesses is starting to look brilliant based on what we've seen from teh Giants coaching staff. Didn't even bother to run against TB, and stuck with the run game against the undersized Chargers defense.
The GM does not choose the coach, Mara does. Reese was hired 3 years after Coughlin.
Decisions are made collectively.
If Judge can only win 4-6 games his year, the Giants aren't going to be able to attract a quality GM if he can't hire his own coach. It's always the Giants way to find a way to hang on to the last losing regime...so,they'll have to hire from within, which they probably want to do anyway.
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and does not hire Abrams or another internal candidate, we will have that situation in which the new GM is working with a coach he did not choose. Most of the time, the new GM looks to rid himself of that coach at the earliest opportunity.
The GM does not choose the coach, Mara does. Reese was hired 3 years after Coughlin.
Reese was an internal selection.
Decisions are made collectively.
I agree that this is how it is done, but if you bring a guy from the outside and say he has to stick with Judge, that is probably not a workable arrangement, makes the job not attractive, and would severely limit your options.
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table. AT or DJ getting hurt for a long stretch would probably be the only way you could convince me they shouldn't. Everyone saw that chokejob by our coaches and why the odds skyrocketed.
Although I think McCarthy is best value on the list, he's getting a pass right now because his kicker bailed him out, but that was laughably bad. They are going to lose some games to bad coaching.
To be fair, Zeuerlein cost them the game in Week 1 as well actually. But yes coaching by McCarthy is not good. Right now, Sirianni actually has been more sound of all the coaches through two weeks in NFCE.
Sirianni's only obvious fuckup so far was that wild 4th down attempt. Not that it was the right move to go for it, but the playcall was extermely suspect. If he wanted to run that craziness should have tried it on 3rd down.
Meanwhile, we've only had more than 7 wins once since 2013.
ugh.. he's as old school as they come. All he wants to do is run the ball. He's stuck in the 80s. I have a friend who is a Vikings fan and he hates him. He produces teams that are good enough to get into the playoffs but not good enough to win titles. I don't want 7-9/10-6 teams. I want 14-3 and aa Super Bowl.
If we're keeping a coach just so the owner can save face then we're screwed.
But I would stick with Judge.
But I would stick with Judge.
I second Joe Brady. Would love to see a top and new age thinker bring new ideas to this stale organization. Mike Zimmer would be the worst choice.
But I would stick with Judge.
Exactly. But as you’ve said many times Judge has inherited Gettleman, Jones & I don’t believe he banged the door for Garrett. What happened with Columbo last year kind of confirms that.
Judge really isn’t even given a chance at this point.
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after 2 games and Judge after 18 games?
If Judge can only win 4-6 games his year, the Giants aren't going to be able to attract a quality GM if he can't hire his own coach. It's always the Giants way to find a way to hang on to the last losing regime...so,they'll have to hire from within, which they probably want to do anyway.
If the Giants were to replace Gettleman with Abrams, can you imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth here, hahaha.
I d be one of those guys that would probably think the move is ok, I kind of am intrigued by Abrams, seems like a really bright guy.
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
Making excuses for a HC with no track record. So far he talks tough and has not delivered. Coaching not to lose with this team bad strategy.
if the next three games are losses, then its a complete failure
He's in a tough spot because the team hasn't won anything in 10 years. Patience is thin.
He's in a tough spot because the team hasn't won anything in 10 years. Patience is thin.
this league is less about tough football and more about offense, coming out firing, and advanced schemes. Judge is a young guy, but his ideas are old. But I am hopeful he can adapt. If not, he will continue to lose.
Because right now this is considerably more of a management failure than a coaching failure.
Joe Brady seems like a really interesting candidate. Darnold has looked sharp through two games.
Because right now this is considerably more of a management failure than a coaching failure.
Bingo.
How many coaches we going to go through? Fire Coughlin. Fire McAdoo (less than 2 years), fire Shurmur (2 years), and now talk of Judge after 18 games? If you go that route, the front office needs to be entirely overhauled including Chris Mara and all scouting.
Imagine if we fire Judge and promote Garrett.
That the betting line speaks to a Judge firing should not be a total surprise given that the over/under for team wins started at something like 6 1/2 and they might not be on pace for that. If they don’t win against Atlanta, I’m guessing you will start seeing media discussions about the need for a complete overhaul.
That doesn't mean Judge won't be fired when this year ends. Only 3 or 4 wins out of 17 and who knows what happens.
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...
Shortly like any week now, or shortly on a geologic time scale?
Your sarcasm is weird, as is your general position with this team since you're living in the past in one respect, but admitting you wouldn't fire Judge in the other. You must like some of what you're seeing Judge.
People in general need to realize Judge doesn't own 2017, 2018, the pick of Barkley or the pick of Jones.
He's a second year head coach whose first year introduction to his football team was done through zoom and without a training camp. And even then if you're willing to look at things within context, he did some good things in year 1.
If you're into betting. I would stay away from Judge in this case. Even if you don't think he's turning it around, the GM and probably the QB are gone before him.
This isn't turning around shortly. The rebuild hasn't begun.
This isn't turning around shortly. The rebuild hasn't begun.
Terps, what do you like about him? I am neutral. Sometimes I just see a guy who talks tough but doesn't have any interesting football ideas.
Imagine if we fire Judge and promote Garrett.
Don’t be shocked with Spagnuolo. Abrams/Spags to lead the new era of Giants football.
Can you imagine what John Mara must think of Gettleman and and to a lesser degree Judge right now? We'll never know how much influence Judge had in the status quo of the OL. For all we know he was pushing for Slater or Tucker or Parsons at #11. Positions the Giants still really need to fill with impact players. How embarrassing is it for an NFL team to be dumpster diving for OL starters at the end of training camp.
What are the odds that Gettleman who had NEVER traded down before decided it was a good idea all of a sudden on his own? I'm sure he heard and read about a lot in the off season. Of course when the owners say before the draft we have to get the QB some "weapons" and the owners are part of the section process if not the final vote I guess this is what you get.
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The rest of the organization is a disaster - the front office and the roster.
This isn't turning around shortly. The rebuild hasn't begun.
Terps, what do you like about him? I am neutral. Sometimes I just see a guy who talks tough but doesn't have any interesting football ideas.
I like that he has generally shown a great attention to detail, has his team generally playing hard, and has his head in the game instead of a play sheet (admittedly that might be an issue with Joe Brady and Lincoln Riley who I mentioned above, but their offensive prowess may compensate for that, I don't know).
I keep coming back to the fact that Joe Judge is being sent into these games with a really poor group of players put together by an incompetent buffoon of a GM with no conception of the modern NFL. I want to see Judge build a program of his design with his quarterback and his offensive coordinator.
He needs to figure things out quick.
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Can't see that happening. And it shouldn't happen.
Imagine if we fire Judge and promote Garrett.
Don’t be shocked with Spagnuolo. Abrams/Spags to lead the new era of Giants football.
This would be firm "BBI needs to pool money to hire a plane to fly over the stadium with a banner" territory.
I agree about Ruhle. And his pressers are interesting. He seems like a thoughtful guy. My worry about Judge is that he is too concerned with acting tough. I am open to him surprising me but tough guys usually are rigid and not open to new ideas. I'll always opt for a thinker, like Bill Walsh, than a lunkhead like Bill Cowher. I believe "the leader of men" truism is nonsense. Let's get cutting edge minds into the organization, where is the game headed, versus people who are trying to recreate the '86 Giants.
We'll see. Rhule made a couple of boneheaded calls himself.
They struggled to beat the crappy Jets and did well beating a Covid ravaged saints team.
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If you've watched the Panthers these first two weeks, Matt Rhule is starting to pay dividends.
I agree about Ruhle. And his pressers are interesting. He seems like a thoughtful guy. My worry about Judge is that he is too concerned with acting tough. I am open to him surprising me but tough guys usually are rigid and not open to new ideas. I'll always opt for a thinker, like Bill Walsh, than a lunkhead like Bill Cowher. I believe "the leader of men" truism is nonsense. Let's get cutting edge minds into the organization, where is the game headed, versus people who are trying to recreate the '86 Giants.
That would always be my preference as well, though I'm not sure I'm ready to place Judge in the lunkhead category as yet.
I am not a Rhule guy, but the Panthers look interesting.
And it's really on the defensive side of the ball. Reddick was a nice signing to compliment Brown, Burns, Chinn, etc. Horn, btw, is getting good reviews as their first round rookie corner...
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If you've watched the Panthers these first two weeks, Matt Rhule is starting to pay dividends.
I am not a Rhule guy, but the Panthers look interesting.
And it's really on the defensive side of the ball. Reddick was a nice signing to compliment Brown, Burns, Chinn, etc. Horn, btw, is getting good reviews as their first round rookie corner...
he's getting a lot out of a very mediocre QB.
But he's off to a real nice start under Brady's tutelage. There is talent there. And they have some nice weapons for him. I'm not sold on that OL, so it's going to be interesting to see how that group holds up.
Maybe that theory of needing a change of scenery was the best thing for Darnold.
But he's off to a real nice start under Brady's tutelage. There is talent there. And they have some nice weapons for him. I'm not sold on that OL, so it's going to be interesting to see how that group holds up.
Maybe that theory of needing a change of scenery was the best thing for Darnold.
Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
What has Judge done so far to earn the benefit of the doubt? Right now the results on the field say he's no better than McAdoo and Shurmur.
If we get rid of Gettleman and a new GM wants Judge gone, do it.
Though honestly, I think Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell might be bigger problems than Gettleman.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
This. If you assume the Giants are headed down the same path they have as the worst team in the NFL since 2017, then you see this pattern:
McAdoo, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Shurmur, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Judge, 2 years, sucked ...
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Terps - you don’t have to say things multiple times on a thread to prove that you know something. We all know how you feel about Daniel Jones at this point. There’s zero reason to keep spewing it. Seriously - nobody cares about your takes anymore.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
Judge lost me with his stupid game management regardless of the QB.
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Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
i'm with you about Garrett. I don't think a good QB gets held back by the OC as much as some claim. If the OC is a real problem a good QB figures it out so he's not turning it over and being productive. I'm not saying I like Garrett. I think he might be running a rudimentary offense because he feels Jones and the O-line can't handle more than that. But I'm just guessing.
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In comment 15379657 Producer said:
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Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
i'm with you about Garrett. I don't think a good QB gets held back by the OC as much as some claim. If the OC is a real problem a good QB figures it out so he's not turning it over and being productive. I'm not saying I like Garrett. I think he might be running a rudimentary offense because he feels Jones and the O-line can't handle more than that. But I'm just guessing.
Eli put up good numbers with a joke OC in McAdoo
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All everyone talked about the last two offseasons was how organizational power was shifting from Gettleman to Judge. Presumably, Judge has had ample input not only in the type of systems this team now runs, but also the talent brought to fit those systems. What happened to the much-ballyhooed "don't tell me what a guy can't do, tell me what he can do" philosophy?
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
This. If you assume the Giants are headed down the same path they have as the worst team in the NFL since 2017, then you see this pattern:
McAdoo, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Shurmur, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Judge, 2 years, sucked ...
Worse yet, you're potentially bringing in a new GM this offseason who didn't hire the HC who are again on different timetables. If JJ is retained and turns in another subpar season, you're not bringing in another HC with another system to teach. DJ, if still here, will have to have learned 4 different systems since being drafted.
How in the world is this conducive to any type of cohesion or success?
We bring in Golladay. Allegedly that was a move Judge agreed with. Yet the QB doesn't seem to have an idea how to play with him. Why? And I don't think you can say it is only because Golladay was injured. He was at the practice field. Don't they talk about these things? It's not that hard to have that conversation. Didn't DJ and KG practice together prior to training camp?
I think these are things that haven't been thought out and makes me question JJ's intelligence.
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Terps - you don’t have to say things multiple times on a thread to prove that you know something. We all know how you feel about Daniel Jones at this point. There’s zero reason to keep spewing it. Seriously - nobody cares about your takes anymore.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
There’s no reason the Giants can’t contend for their division this season. The QB and OL were the big concerns coming in and for the most part, after 2 weeks, those two areas have held up pretty well outside of Nate Solder in week 1.
We’ve played 2 weeks of a 17 game season. Let’s see how things play out. In the meantime, if you want to get excited about Carolina beating the Jets and the Covid Saints, go right ahead.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
In 2012, we promoted Chris Mara to Senior VP of player personnel. How has our player personnel been since then? Isn't it interesting 2012 is the point where Reese turned from a good GM into an awful one?
We sucked in 2013 and said Gilbride was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2014 and 2015 and said Coughlin was the problem and got rid of him.
We did okay in 2016, then we sucked again in 2017 and said Reese was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2018 and said Eli was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2019 and said Shurmur was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2020 but pretended we didn't because the rest of the division sucked too.
We suck in 2021 and at this rate we'll say Gettleman (and maybe Judge) are the problems and get rid of them.
Then we'll suck again and 2022 and say Jones is the problem and get rid of him.
But who is still there from 2012?
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It’s fine for Judge to be a CEO type HC who sets culture and all that yada yada. Culture and leadership are important. But someone has to break down the film and build the schemes and game plans that expose the other teams weaknesses and highlight our mismatches and strengths. Not sure who’s doing this work on the Giants but it doesn’t seem to be working.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
If the season is somehow not over by Halloween, we'll be running mock drafts by Thanksgiving, because we then go on to play the Raiders at home and the Bucs in Tampa.
If we're 1-9 or 0-10, everyone should be fired before Christmas and the tank on. Utilize the rest of the season to a ground-up analysis of the entire organization. I don't care which coaching tree he fell out of and I don't give an F about his "SEC connections". He wouldn't be the first BB disciple to fail as a HC.
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In comment 15379712 trueblueinpw said:
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It’s fine for Judge to be a CEO type HC who sets culture and all that yada yada. Culture and leadership are important. But someone has to break down the film and build the schemes and game plans that expose the other teams weaknesses and highlight our mismatches and strengths. Not sure who’s doing this work on the Giants but it doesn’t seem to be working.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
How has he shown us the stage isn't too big for him?
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In comment 15379717 PwndPapi said:
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
If the season is somehow not over by Halloween, we'll be running mock drafts by Thanksgiving, because we then go on to play the Raiders at home and the Bucs in Tampa.
If we're 1-9 or 0-10, everyone should be fired before Christmas and the tank on. Utilize the rest of the season to a ground-up analysis of the entire organization. I don't care which coaching tree he fell out of and I don't give an F about his "SEC connections". He wouldn't be the first BB disciple to fail as a HC.
About that, how come so many Bill Belichick disciples wind up falling flat on their faces?
How has he shown us the stage isn't too big for him?
1. He curses.
2. Wore a suit tailored in the 21st century
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
The problem with Judge is it does seem like the stage is to big for him. As far as running the organization goes as CEO, he does a pretty good job. But when the pressure is on during the game (and maybe fans in the stands has had an effect) he just doesn't recognize game flow, what's working, what's not, teams unprepared coming out of breaks, on key 4th downs, and is coaching with his tail between his legs.
I'm starting to think this conservative nonsense is bleeding into Graham. We are somehow lining up off the ball further with a better secondary. He's terrified of giving up big plays, but when you are facing guys like Heineke and Teddy thats exactly how you beat them. Make them beat you over the top. Hopefuly we see an adjustment against ATL because Ryan is more of the same, just less mobile, but better arm talent.
Last year we were doing all this stuff and it made waaay more sense. There are zero adjustments to their approach this year. Kicking long field goals on 4th and medium and short is just conducive to winning in today's NFL, but understandable last year. Then trying to play a tight game when we are in red zone like we have the same offensive line we did last year, makes no sense, any of it. If the line was AT,Gates, Hernandez, Lemiuex, and Peart/Solder, that would make sense, but its not. It isn't Saquons strength either.
With the way the schedule set ups anything less than 3-6 into the bye is lights out, but the back half is very, very winnable. We'll find out Sunday because this is the single most important game of the Judge regime so far. Lose this one and the season is pretty much a wrap. Win and the season is still full of possibilities.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
You could argue that NO doesn’t look very good and Carolina is a mirage. Win those two and Atlanta and they are 3-5. Best case, which is still nowhere near playoff contention.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
I think the honeymoon is over and people are seeing what the bride looks like without makeup on.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
Yes, “buckle the fuck up”
3 completely winnable games on paper. 1 not impossible + Kansas City.
Not exactly a gauntlet.
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
You could argue that NO doesn’t look very good and Carolina is a mirage. Win those two and Atlanta and they are 3-5. Best case, which is still nowhere near playoff contention.
CAR might be a mirage. What's that make us? If we played NYJ in week 1, do you have any doubt it would be 12-9 slugfest between two terribly coached teams trying to actively give the game away in the waning seconds of the game?
It's bad enough watching a bad team. Watching a bad team that plays so tightly and conservatively, it actually foregoes points in tight games - even when your defense puts you inside the opposition's 20 and you STILL can't run time off below the 2 minute warning is just awful.
When you're a mature, winning HC, you can play tightly with confidence your D will stand tough and you'll eventually win the field position battle. Punting the ball down with 4 minutes left? Rushing twice into the mouth of the defense inside the 20 and not even running 2 min off the clock to kick another limp dick FG doesn't inspire confidence when he's already lost this many games.
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
I'm not an expert bettor, so if I have that wrong, please correct me.
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
Yes, “buckle the fuck up”
3 completely winnable games on paper. 1 not impossible + Kansas City.
Not exactly a gauntlet.
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
And those teams all view the Giants as a get right week that they have to be careful not to overlook in advance of games against better opponents.
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In comment 15379717 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
Yes, “buckle the fuck up”
3 completely winnable games on paper. 1 not impossible + Kansas City.
Not exactly a gauntlet.
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
And those teams all view the Giants as a get right week that they have to be careful not to overlook in advance of games against better opponents.
Maybe, maybe not. What difference will it make if the Giants win the games?
Us winning in NOLA...Hahaha. I'll believe that shit when I see it. It'll probably be 35-0 @ halftime.
I've written the same. This game v ATL is critical for Judge. ATL has been horrible, although through three quarters they were in that game v Tampa last Sunday. But then the back to back pick sixes - off deflections - by Edwards sealed the W.
Because after ATL, it's at Saints, at Boys, Rams.
That is brutal.
It’s early yet. We’ll see what happens.
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We'll find out Sunday because this is the single most important game of the Judge regime so far. Lose this one and the season is pretty much a wrap. Win and the season is still full of possibilities.
I've written the same. This game v ATL is critical for Judge. ATL has been horrible, although through three quarters they were in that game v Tampa last Sunday. But then the back to back pick sixes - off deflections - by Edwards sealed the W.
Because after ATL, it's at Saints, at Boys, Rams.
That is brutal.
The Packers had their heads up their asses week 1. The Saints are not what you guys are making them out to be.
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In comment 15379733 Zeke's Alibi said:
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We'll find out Sunday because this is the single most important game of the Judge regime so far. Lose this one and the season is pretty much a wrap. Win and the season is still full of possibilities.
I've written the same. This game v ATL is critical for Judge. ATL has been horrible, although through three quarters they were in that game v Tampa last Sunday. But then the back to back pick sixes - off deflections - by Edwards sealed the W.
Because after ATL, it's at Saints, at Boys, Rams.
That is brutal.
The Packers had their heads up their asses week 1. The Saints are not what you guys are making them out to be.
We don't know what the Saints are. Winston is the most erratic QB in the league. Sometimes great, usually bad. But they're a well-coached team and they have Taysom also. This might turn into the biggest two QB approach in the league. They will use trickery to win games. Do these Giants do well against trickery?
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Why would the Giants win those games? No reason to believe it.
It’s early yet. We’ll see what happens.
This line of thinking no longer deserves to be taken seriously. Same thing for years...
If ATL wasn't the victim of awful coaching early, that's a game, and they probably don't press in the 4th when the game really ran away.
What's Judge done to get the right to hire his own GM - especially if things spiral out of control and he has a worse record than Shurmur.
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In comment 15379756 Go Terps said:
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Why would the Giants win those games? No reason to believe it.
It’s early yet. We’ll see what happens.
This line of thinking no longer deserves to be taken seriously. Same thing for years...
What do those years have to do with 2021?
If ATL wasn't the victim of awful coaching early, that's a game, and they probably don't press in the 4th when the game really ran away.
ok .. this team right now has no chance against the Rams.
*fart noise*
*fart noise*
and this year, we can't even beat WTF
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Not happening. Not JJ's fault he has a boob for a GM. Get rid of DG & let JJ work in tandem with a hand picked GM.
What's Judge done to get the right to hire his own GM - especially if things spiral out of control and he has a worse record than Shurmur.
Well, I can tell you this: I have much more confidence in him than DG.
*fart noise*
Didn’t they beat them both just last season? Or did that not happen?
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"We can beat Philly, we can beat dallas"
*fart noise*
Didn’t they beat them both just last season? Or did that not happen?
Don’t even bother. We’re 0-2 so fold up the tents and end the season! Fire Joe Judge and let the mock drafts commence.
I've written the same. This game v ATL is critical for Judge. ATL has been horrible, although through three quarters they were in that game v Tampa last Sunday. But then the back to back pick sixes - off deflections - by Edwards sealed the W.
Because after ATL, it's at Saints, at Boys, Rams.
That is brutal.
The Packers had their heads up their asses week 1. The Saints are not what you guys are making them out to be.
Saints could be a mystery - true. What they did to Green Bay in week 1, the Panthers did the exact same thing to the Saints. It's eerie.
But they were riddled with Covid coming into that game - coaching staff, big time - and they were banged up a bit. So based on how good Payton is as a HC, I'm giving them a mulligan for now. Their game this week in New England is something to keep an eye on. If the Pats win, the Saints drop to 1-2, and desperately need to beat NYG.
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"We can beat Philly, we can beat dallas"
*fart noise*
Didn’t they beat them both just last season? Or did that not happen?
Cmon man. Who played QB for Dallas? In a game that meant nothing for anyone.
If accuracy is an issue, let me revise.
The only time we can beat Philly is when they're the worst version of themselves in 10 years.
Against real playoff teams, we are outclassed and will struggle to stay competitive (any given Sunday caveat).
We have roughly 5 win talent on the roster, so we'll win in the 3-7 range. We have to beat somebody.
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In comment 15379744 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Not happening. Not JJ's fault he has a boob for a GM. Get rid of DG & let JJ work in tandem with a hand picked GM.
What's Judge done to get the right to hire his own GM - especially if things spiral out of control and he has a worse record than Shurmur.
Well, I can tell you this: I have much more confidence in him than DG.
That's what I'm asking. Why do you have confidence in him?
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In comment 15379785 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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"We can beat Philly, we can beat dallas"
*fart noise*
Didn’t they beat them both just last season? Or did that not happen?
Cmon man. Who played QB for Dallas? In a game that meant nothing for anyone.
If accuracy is an issue, let me revise.
The only time we can beat Philly is when they're the worst version of themselves in 10 years.
A game that meant nothing to anyone? The winner was going to the playoffs with an Eagles loss that night?
Where do you people come up with this stuff?
The only thing more tiresome than Terps posts about Jones is your posts about Terps.
But do we? I ain't confident.
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In comment 15379785 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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"We can beat Philly, we can beat dallas"
*fart noise*
Didn’t they beat them both just last season? Or did that not happen?
Cmon man. Who played QB for Dallas? In a game that meant nothing for anyone.
If accuracy is an issue, let me revise.
The only time we can beat Philly is when they're the worst version of themselves in 10 years.
You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. “In a game that meant nothing to anyone”? Dallas could have won the division by beating the Giants in that last game!
How about you don’t make fun of fans for somehow thinking the Giants can beat two teams that they literally just beat last season? And I don’t want to hear any fucking excuses as to why they beat them. There are no excuses allowed when they lose, so let’s be consistent here, huh?
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From there we can all debate the schedule. Just beat ATL.
But do we? I ain't confident.
No reason to be optimistic. Until the Giants actually win, they don’t deserve any benefit of the doubt. With that said, I’ll be rooting hard because I can’t have this season over before the leaves turn anymore. We’ve been through that enough.
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Terps - you don’t have to say things multiple times on a thread to prove that you know something. We all know how you feel about Daniel Jones at this point. There’s zero reason to keep spewing it. Seriously - nobody cares about your takes anymore.
The only thing more tiresome than Terps posts about Jones is your posts about Terps.
Oh ok got it. Thanks dude.
Gettleman is a God-awful GM - - but I’m pretty certain it wasn’t Gettleman who made the asinine decision to try and challenge an unchallengeable play.
And I’m guessing it wasn’t Gettleman who decided to punt from the opponents 38yd line last week.
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"Why not us?"
In 2012, we promoted Chris Mara to Senior VP of player personnel. How has our player personnel been since then? Isn't it interesting 2012 is the point where Reese turned from a good GM into an awful one?
We sucked in 2013 and said Gilbride was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2014 and 2015 and said Coughlin was the problem and got rid of him.
We did okay in 2016, then we sucked again in 2017 and said Reese was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2018 and said Eli was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2019 and said Shurmur was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2020 but pretended we didn't because the rest of the division sucked too.
We suck in 2021 and at this rate we'll say Gettleman (and maybe Judge) are the problems and get rid of them.
Then we'll suck again and 2022 and say Jones is the problem and get rid of him.
But who is still there from 2012?
Until they show otherwise, this is a terrible team that has become a laughingstock of the league. The problem with some people is they cling to one game and think that shows something. It might be like beating the Eagles at the end of the season a few years ago. Beating Seattle last year. Any one of these so-called moral victories because we only lost by one point. That's all bullshit. WE SUCK and we have for a LOOOONG time.
For me, the Seattle game last year was a breaking point. I fell into this trap. I thought we finally turned a corner by beating a winning team and with our backup QB to boot. The rest of the schedule looked favorable. I really thought that was the start of something. Instead, it was an immediate end. The stunk up the joint the week after and continued to be embarrassing. They suck until they prove otherwise. And that means, to me, they win 8 games. And that would only mean they don't suck, but they are merely decent.
I've said it many times already this season. If they win anything less than 8 games, they are just more of the same shit and we need a complete house cleaning. That's Judge, entire staff, and Gettleman all gone.
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In comment 15379715 Go Terps said:
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"Why not us?"
In 2012, we promoted Chris Mara to Senior VP of player personnel. How has our player personnel been since then? Isn't it interesting 2012 is the point where Reese turned from a good GM into an awful one?
We sucked in 2013 and said Gilbride was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2014 and 2015 and said Coughlin was the problem and got rid of him.
We did okay in 2016, then we sucked again in 2017 and said Reese was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2018 and said Eli was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2019 and said Shurmur was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2020 but pretended we didn't because the rest of the division sucked too.
We suck in 2021 and at this rate we'll say Gettleman (and maybe Judge) are the problems and get rid of them.
Then we'll suck again and 2022 and say Jones is the problem and get rid of him.
But who is still there from 2012?
Solid post right here. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I'm afraid that absolutely nothing is going to change because of the folks who own the team.
That’s how I feel, too. Nothing major to feel good about since that Seattle win except getting the Bears 1st pick. I’m starting to believe the people to turn this around aren’t in the building.
I didn’t really understand the plan this off-season. All we heard was the importance of Judge building a program and doing things the right way. Then, after going 6-10 in a shitty division all that went out the window. It feels like it became a repeat of 2016 where high priced vets are brought in while not addressing the line play. I’m afraid it was Mara driven even more than Gettleman/Judge.
I liked the trade down in the draft, but was Toney really BPA? I think it was more likely a forced pick to help Jones. Which is such a lousy process.
If the Giants go 8-9 though, I’d have a tough time moving on from Judge. Knowing he inherited a shitty OL, a QB he wasn’t around to choose & a lame duck GM - I don’t think canning a 39 year old head coach would be fair.
I also see Mara 100% going the retread route if Judge is fired. Think a guy like Mike McCarthy if available.
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That’s how I feel, too. Nothing major to feel good about since that Seattle win except getting the Bears 1st pick. I’m starting to believe the people to turn this around aren’t in the building.
I didn’t really understand the plan this off-season. All we heard was the importance of Judge building a program and doing things the right way. Then, after going 6-10 in a shitty division all that went out the window. It feels like it became a repeat of 2016 where high priced vets are brought in while not addressing the line play. I’m afraid it was Mara driven even more than Gettleman/Judge.
I liked the trade down in the draft, but was Toney really BPA? I think it was more likely a forced pick to help Jones. Which is such a lousy process.
If the Giants go 8-9 though, I’d have a tough time moving on from Judge. Knowing he inherited a shitty OL, a QB he wasn’t around to choose & a lame duck GM - I don’t think canning a 39 year old head coach would be fair.
I also see Mara 100% going the retread route if Judge is fired. Think a guy like Mike McCarthy if available.
They go 8-9 after starting 0-2 vs this schedule, Judge shouldn’t get fired. He should get Coach of the Year.
Btw, even if this season goes south, I would probably favor keeping Judge. But he has to show more on the strategic and X’s and O’s side.
Thats how bad his performance has been in these 2 games. Shocking.
We just strolled in and saw our new wife flirting with the pool boy.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
People are overreacting in both directions. He never should have gotten the rep he got here - it was a joke that a 6-10 coach was talked about like a top ten coach - and he's getting unfairly criticized now. We still don't know what we have in him.
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Parcells disciple, defensive mastermind and has never been worse than 7-9 in his head coaching career.
Meanwhile, we've only had more than 7 wins once since 2013.
ugh.. he's as old school as they come. All he wants to do is run the ball. He's stuck in the 80s. I have a friend who is a Vikings fan and he hates him. He produces teams that are good enough to get into the playoffs but not good enough to win titles. I don't want 7-9/10-6 teams. I want 14-3 and aa Super Bowl.
Running the ball is ok.
It's the manner of running, and flexibility that count.
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might have the biggest single week drop in approval rating in BBI history.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
People are overreacting in both directions. He never should have gotten the rep he got here - it was a joke that a 6-10 coach was talked about like a top ten coach - and he's getting unfairly criticized now. We still don't know what we have in him.
I don't think so. I think it's a more fair evaluation of him now.
Right now he's a 6-12 coach who's shown precisely squadoo. It's up to him to prove he can be the guy, starting by beating Atlanta on Sunday. If he does not - and there's a good chance he does not - then the upcoming schedule is not favorable and there's no real reason to keep him beyond the end of the year.
This team had odds of 7-10. Actually when season started it was 6.5 I think. And they got robbed at Wash by the refs. And Wash was supposed to have the superior team.
They just didn't address the OL this year. Hoping in 2022 they focus on this - if QB is okay.