Jaime Eisner
@JaimeEisner
Updated 1st HC to be fired odds, courtesy of @betonline_ag:
Zac Taylor (+350)
Joe Judge (+450)
Mike Zimmer (+450)
Matt Nagy (+550)
Urban Meyer (+600)
Mike McCarthy (+1600)
Vic Fangio (+1600)
Mike Tomlin (+1800)
Dan Campbell (+2000)
Make of that what you will (if anything)
This isn't turning around shortly. The rebuild hasn't begun.
Terps, what do you like about him? I am neutral. Sometimes I just see a guy who talks tough but doesn't have any interesting football ideas.
Imagine if we fire Judge and promote Garrett.
Don’t be shocked with Spagnuolo. Abrams/Spags to lead the new era of Giants football.
Can you imagine what John Mara must think of Gettleman and and to a lesser degree Judge right now? We'll never know how much influence Judge had in the status quo of the OL. For all we know he was pushing for Slater or Tucker or Parsons at #11. Positions the Giants still really need to fill with impact players. How embarrassing is it for an NFL team to be dumpster diving for OL starters at the end of training camp.
What are the odds that Gettleman who had NEVER traded down before decided it was a good idea all of a sudden on his own? I'm sure he heard and read about a lot in the off season. Of course when the owners say before the draft we have to get the QB some "weapons" and the owners are part of the section process if not the final vote I guess this is what you get.
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The rest of the organization is a disaster - the front office and the roster.
This isn't turning around shortly. The rebuild hasn't begun.
Terps, what do you like about him? I am neutral. Sometimes I just see a guy who talks tough but doesn't have any interesting football ideas.
I like that he has generally shown a great attention to detail, has his team generally playing hard, and has his head in the game instead of a play sheet (admittedly that might be an issue with Joe Brady and Lincoln Riley who I mentioned above, but their offensive prowess may compensate for that, I don't know).
I keep coming back to the fact that Joe Judge is being sent into these games with a really poor group of players put together by an incompetent buffoon of a GM with no conception of the modern NFL. I want to see Judge build a program of his design with his quarterback and his offensive coordinator.
He needs to figure things out quick.
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Can't see that happening. And it shouldn't happen.
Imagine if we fire Judge and promote Garrett.
Don’t be shocked with Spagnuolo. Abrams/Spags to lead the new era of Giants football.
This would be firm "BBI needs to pool money to hire a plane to fly over the stadium with a banner" territory.
I agree about Ruhle. And his pressers are interesting. He seems like a thoughtful guy. My worry about Judge is that he is too concerned with acting tough. I am open to him surprising me but tough guys usually are rigid and not open to new ideas. I'll always opt for a thinker, like Bill Walsh, than a lunkhead like Bill Cowher. I believe "the leader of men" truism is nonsense. Let's get cutting edge minds into the organization, where is the game headed, versus people who are trying to recreate the '86 Giants.
We'll see. Rhule made a couple of boneheaded calls himself.
They struggled to beat the crappy Jets and did well beating a Covid ravaged saints team.
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If you've watched the Panthers these first two weeks, Matt Rhule is starting to pay dividends.
I agree about Ruhle. And his pressers are interesting. He seems like a thoughtful guy. My worry about Judge is that he is too concerned with acting tough. I am open to him surprising me but tough guys usually are rigid and not open to new ideas. I'll always opt for a thinker, like Bill Walsh, than a lunkhead like Bill Cowher. I believe "the leader of men" truism is nonsense. Let's get cutting edge minds into the organization, where is the game headed, versus people who are trying to recreate the '86 Giants.
That would always be my preference as well, though I'm not sure I'm ready to place Judge in the lunkhead category as yet.
I am not a Rhule guy, but the Panthers look interesting.
And it's really on the defensive side of the ball. Reddick was a nice signing to compliment Brown, Burns, Chinn, etc. Horn, btw, is getting good reviews as their first round rookie corner...
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If you've watched the Panthers these first two weeks, Matt Rhule is starting to pay dividends.
I am not a Rhule guy, but the Panthers look interesting.
And it's really on the defensive side of the ball. Reddick was a nice signing to compliment Brown, Burns, Chinn, etc. Horn, btw, is getting good reviews as their first round rookie corner...
he's getting a lot out of a very mediocre QB.
But he's off to a real nice start under Brady's tutelage. There is talent there. And they have some nice weapons for him. I'm not sold on that OL, so it's going to be interesting to see how that group holds up.
Maybe that theory of needing a change of scenery was the best thing for Darnold.
But he's off to a real nice start under Brady's tutelage. There is talent there. And they have some nice weapons for him. I'm not sold on that OL, so it's going to be interesting to see how that group holds up.
Maybe that theory of needing a change of scenery was the best thing for Darnold.
Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
While I think that's a flawed style of thinking, I would like to see how Judge operate free of Gettleman and his mistakes (particularly Jones and Barkley).
What this does tell you is Vegas doesn't see us turning this around and winning many games.
What has Judge done so far to earn the benefit of the doubt? Right now the results on the field say he's no better than McAdoo and Shurmur.
If we get rid of Gettleman and a new GM wants Judge gone, do it.
Though honestly, I think Chris Mara and Tim McDonnell might be bigger problems than Gettleman.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
This. If you assume the Giants are headed down the same path they have as the worst team in the NFL since 2017, then you see this pattern:
McAdoo, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Shurmur, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Judge, 2 years, sucked ...
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Terps - you don’t have to say things multiple times on a thread to prove that you know something. We all know how you feel about Daniel Jones at this point. There’s zero reason to keep spewing it. Seriously - nobody cares about your takes anymore.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
Judge lost me with his stupid game management regardless of the QB.
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Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
i'm with you about Garrett. I don't think a good QB gets held back by the OC as much as some claim. If the OC is a real problem a good QB figures it out so he's not turning it over and being productive. I'm not saying I like Garrett. I think he might be running a rudimentary offense because he feels Jones and the O-line can't handle more than that. But I'm just guessing.
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In comment 15379657 Producer said:
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Maybe Darnold can make it work long term. I follow Cosell's opinions on young QBs. Last year Cosell described almost fatal deficiencies in Darnold's game including poor lower body mechanics and the inability to make routine plays on a consistent basis. I don't think Darnold will ever be great, but can good coaching get him to play great in spells? definitely possible.
Anyway, I think Ruhle seems open to the new NFL. And of course I admire Joe Brady. Why are all the good coaches working for other teams?
Cosell is a good source for sure.
I'm not throwing in the towel on Graham yet. So I still think we're good on the defensive side of the ball with coaching.
I've said this scores of times - I'm either way on Garrett. I think the problem is more Jones and the OL. But who the hell knows with guys like Sale (and his OL coaching by committee experiment), Kitchens, Schuplinski, etc.
i'm with you about Garrett. I don't think a good QB gets held back by the OC as much as some claim. If the OC is a real problem a good QB figures it out so he's not turning it over and being productive. I'm not saying I like Garrett. I think he might be running a rudimentary offense because he feels Jones and the O-line can't handle more than that. But I'm just guessing.
Eli put up good numbers with a joke OC in McAdoo
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All everyone talked about the last two offseasons was how organizational power was shifting from Gettleman to Judge. Presumably, Judge has had ample input not only in the type of systems this team now runs, but also the talent brought to fit those systems. What happened to the much-ballyhooed "don't tell me what a guy can't do, tell me what he can do" philosophy?
We're a combined 6-12 during Judge's tenure. They were outscored 92-49 in the final 4 games of the 2020 season. Meaningful games with the division and playoffs on the line. Three of the four games were home games. Our secondary, which was supposed to be a team strength and excels at press man coverage is playing 10+ yards off the LOS. Our 3/4 base can't cover the middle of the field worth a damn. We sign a big possession target to the outside and then DONT utilize him in RZ. We draft a gimmecky joystick in the first round and then manage to scheme two predictable touches in two games. The coaching philosophy stresses multiple/flexibility - but only 2 players along the OL can adequately play their position. And for the first time since being elevated to the job, our HC is making potentially game-changing blunders with challenges and timeouts.
So why again does Joe Judge get a pass here?
This. If you assume the Giants are headed down the same path they have as the worst team in the NFL since 2017, then you see this pattern:
McAdoo, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Shurmur, 2 years, sucked, was fired
Judge, 2 years, sucked ...
Worse yet, you're potentially bringing in a new GM this offseason who didn't hire the HC who are again on different timetables. If JJ is retained and turns in another subpar season, you're not bringing in another HC with another system to teach. DJ, if still here, will have to have learned 4 different systems since being drafted.
How in the world is this conducive to any type of cohesion or success?
We bring in Golladay. Allegedly that was a move Judge agreed with. Yet the QB doesn't seem to have an idea how to play with him. Why? And I don't think you can say it is only because Golladay was injured. He was at the practice field. Don't they talk about these things? It's not that hard to have that conversation. Didn't DJ and KG practice together prior to training camp?
I think these are things that haven't been thought out and makes me question JJ's intelligence.
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Terps - you don’t have to say things multiple times on a thread to prove that you know something. We all know how you feel about Daniel Jones at this point. There’s zero reason to keep spewing it. Seriously - nobody cares about your takes anymore.
It's just that he's so mediocre...I'd hate to see Judge sacrificed because he was saddled with such a poor quarterback, you know what I mean?
But hey I'm told on this very thread that things are turning around shortly.
🤞
There’s no reason the Giants can’t contend for their division this season. The QB and OL were the big concerns coming in and for the most part, after 2 weeks, those two areas have held up pretty well outside of Nate Solder in week 1.
We’ve played 2 weeks of a 17 game season. Let’s see how things play out. In the meantime, if you want to get excited about Carolina beating the Jets and the Covid Saints, go right ahead.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
In 2012, we promoted Chris Mara to Senior VP of player personnel. How has our player personnel been since then? Isn't it interesting 2012 is the point where Reese turned from a good GM into an awful one?
We sucked in 2013 and said Gilbride was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2014 and 2015 and said Coughlin was the problem and got rid of him.
We did okay in 2016, then we sucked again in 2017 and said Reese was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2018 and said Eli was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2019 and said Shurmur was the problem and got rid of him.
We sucked in 2020 but pretended we didn't because the rest of the division sucked too.
We suck in 2021 and at this rate we'll say Gettleman (and maybe Judge) are the problems and get rid of them.
Then we'll suck again and 2022 and say Jones is the problem and get rid of him.
But who is still there from 2012?
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It’s fine for Judge to be a CEO type HC who sets culture and all that yada yada. Culture and leadership are important. But someone has to break down the film and build the schemes and game plans that expose the other teams weaknesses and highlight our mismatches and strengths. Not sure who’s doing this work on the Giants but it doesn’t seem to be working.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
If the season is somehow not over by Halloween, we'll be running mock drafts by Thanksgiving, because we then go on to play the Raiders at home and the Bucs in Tampa.
If we're 1-9 or 0-10, everyone should be fired before Christmas and the tank on. Utilize the rest of the season to a ground-up analysis of the entire organization. I don't care which coaching tree he fell out of and I don't give an F about his "SEC connections". He wouldn't be the first BB disciple to fail as a HC.
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In comment 15379712 trueblueinpw said:
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It’s fine for Judge to be a CEO type HC who sets culture and all that yada yada. Culture and leadership are important. But someone has to break down the film and build the schemes and game plans that expose the other teams weaknesses and highlight our mismatches and strengths. Not sure who’s doing this work on the Giants but it doesn’t seem to be working.
Thing is, the special teams - his bread and butter - aren't special. What's he giving us exactly?
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
How has he shown us the stage isn't too big for him?
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In comment 15379717 PwndPapi said:
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buckle the fuck up.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
With that schedule if they lose to Atlanta everything will be on the table up to and including firing Judge in season. Because that looks like 1-7 and another season over before Halloween.
If the season is somehow not over by Halloween, we'll be running mock drafts by Thanksgiving, because we then go on to play the Raiders at home and the Bucs in Tampa.
If we're 1-9 or 0-10, everyone should be fired before Christmas and the tank on. Utilize the rest of the season to a ground-up analysis of the entire organization. I don't care which coaching tree he fell out of and I don't give an F about his "SEC connections". He wouldn't be the first BB disciple to fail as a HC.
About that, how come so many Bill Belichick disciples wind up falling flat on their faces?
How has he shown us the stage isn't too big for him?
1. He curses.
2. Wore a suit tailored in the 21st century
It’s hard enough to find success as an NFL head coach with years of experience and seasoning. Judge is young and never worked as a HC. So, chances are slim he’ll be successful. So far, he’s shown us that the stage is not too big for him. And that’s not nothing. Let’s see how he does with the pressure now. I haven’t lost faith or hope just yet.
The problem with Judge is it does seem like the stage is to big for him. As far as running the organization goes as CEO, he does a pretty good job. But when the pressure is on during the game (and maybe fans in the stands has had an effect) he just doesn't recognize game flow, what's working, what's not, teams unprepared coming out of breaks, on key 4th downs, and is coaching with his tail between his legs.
I'm starting to think this conservative nonsense is bleeding into Graham. We are somehow lining up off the ball further with a better secondary. He's terrified of giving up big plays, but when you are facing guys like Heineke and Teddy thats exactly how you beat them. Make them beat you over the top. Hopefuly we see an adjustment against ATL because Ryan is more of the same, just less mobile, but better arm talent.
Last year we were doing all this stuff and it made waaay more sense. There are zero adjustments to their approach this year. Kicking long field goals on 4th and medium and short is just conducive to winning in today's NFL, but understandable last year. Then trying to play a tight game when we are in red zone like we have the same offensive line we did last year, makes no sense, any of it. If the line was AT,Gates, Hernandez, Lemiuex, and Peart/Solder, that would make sense, but its not. It isn't Saquons strength either.
With the way the schedule set ups anything less than 3-6 into the bye is lights out, but the back half is very, very winnable. We'll find out Sunday because this is the single most important game of the Judge regime so far. Lose this one and the season is pretty much a wrap. Win and the season is still full of possibilities.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.
You could argue that NO doesn’t look very good and Carolina is a mirage. Win those two and Atlanta and they are 3-5. Best case, which is still nowhere near playoff contention.
I suppose there were some lesser figures like Matt Dodge and Trey Junkin who crashed harder, but nobody really liked them to begin with.
I think the honeymoon is over and people are seeing what the bride looks like without makeup on.
Because, here are the next 5 games:
@NO
@DAL
LAR
CAR
@KC
Yes, “buckle the fuck up”
3 completely winnable games on paper. 1 not impossible + Kansas City.
Not exactly a gauntlet.
It's very possible we start the year 1-7 or 0-8 and at that point, Pat Schumer will have a better winning percentage than JJ with a far worse team - and he was fired after just two seasons.