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NFT: Mets hitting rock bottom

nygfaninorlando : 9/22/2021 9:40 pm
Getting utterly embarrassed on national tv tonight. A once promising season again derailed by injuries, terrible situational hitting, not having a reliable closer, bad hires in the front office and inept managing.

Lots to unpack after this season. Is the first move to fire Rojas or bring in a new high profile GM and/or President? Beane? Theo? Do they resign Baez? Is there a trade market for McNeil, JD, etc? How do deGrom and Thor come back from their injuries? Nimmo is great when healthy but another season being in and out of the lineup. Where do they go from here?

Try like hell to bring in Epstein or Beane  
Chris684 : 9/22/2021 9:41 pm : link
Assuming Lindor and deGrom will remain here.

Blow everything else up.
Good first half, disastrous second half.  
81_Great_Dane : 9/22/2021 9:57 pm : link
Unwatchable, depressing. Awful. Badly constructed, underachieving roster. Really don’t like this squad. Some guys who are really easy to root for but less than the sum of their parts.
I mean it always sucks to lose  
Rory : 9/22/2021 10:01 pm : link
but honestly we should want this. It will spark a full change within this organization.

Sandy will move to a executive position and be able to build this team the way he wants.

A prospect President, GM and Manager will have a surplus of premium draft picks, top pitcher in baseball & a 5 tool SS looking to come back strong.

I hope we can find a way to keep Rojas in the organization, he has promise.
I mean it always sucks to lose  
Rory : 9/22/2021 10:02 pm : link
but honestly we should want this. It will spark a full change within this organization.

Sandy will move to a executive position and be able to build this team the way he wants.

A prospect President, GM and Manager will have a surplus of premium draft picks, top pitcher in baseball & a 5 tool SS looking to come back strong.

I hope we can find a way to keep Rojas in the organization, he has promise.
Rojas, Sandy and Scott will all be gone  
Vanzetti : 9/22/2021 10:10 pm : link
Cohen is going to clean house. His big mistake was sticking with these clowns in the first place.

I doubt either Theo or Beane comes here. Though Theo is more likely.

I think Cohen goes with an up and coming GM. Not a retread. GM will hire the manager
Problem is  
pjcas18 : 9/22/2021 10:12 pm : link
this is nowhere near rock bottom.

I think Sandy will stay  
moespree : 9/22/2021 10:23 pm : link
And will transition into the advisory role he was meant to have in the first place. He wore a bunch of hats this season that was never intended and that's Porter and Scott's fault.

If a big name executive comes in then Sandy won't have much say over whatever a big name wants. He becomes nothing more than a name that's being paid

Sandy was important to Cohen getting the team. He calmed owners nerves about Cohen. I'm not going to blame him for much of what happened this season. He was forced into roles that were never intended through no fault of his own.
RE: I think Sandy will stay  
Rory : 9/22/2021 10:35 pm : link
In comment 15379943 moespree said:
Quote:
And will transition into the advisory role he was meant to have in the first place. He wore a bunch of hats this season that was never intended and that's Porter and Scott's fault.

If a big name executive comes in then Sandy won't have much say over whatever a big name wants. He becomes nothing more than a name that's being paid

Sandy was important to Cohen getting the team. He calmed owners nerves about Cohen. I'm not going to blame him for much of what happened this season. He was forced into roles that were never intended through no fault of his own.


Moespree nailed it. Cohen and Sandy are a package deal, Sandy also is well respected baseball man who Eric said it best last night "a conduit" to other successful baseball minds. 100% stays
The key to contending  
BigBlueNH : 9/22/2021 11:27 pm : link
is having a high number of players performing well on their rookie or arbitration contracts. A team can only afford so many high-priced FAs. As of next year, we will have 1 player who fits that profile: Alonso. We do not have a single pitcher signed for next year who fits that profile.

This is the result of years of poor drafting and trades of too many valuable prospects over the last few years, for a poor return.

As a result, I do not see any pathway to this team contending for quite a few years. I hope to hell I am wrong.
It could be worse  
bcinsd : 9/23/2021 12:10 am : link
You could be a Padres fan.
The reason this sucks..  
moze1021 : 9/23/2021 7:00 am : link
is because the expectations were so high.

I disagree with some of the earlier comments here.

It wasn't a "situational hitting" issue...it was a hitting issue period. This team should have been a juggernaut on the level of '06

There was no point in this season when things were "good". They were lucky all first half that their pitching was winning games for them and the rest of the division was flailing.

The only reason it felt good was because they had injuries and were drastically underperforming and the expectation was that "well once they are healthy, and these All-Star players all start playing like it, they will take off and run away with the division"...

They should have...and they never did.

The team will probably look a lot different next year... I don't see how we can rely on Dom, McNeil, Conforto...

McNeil: I don't think he ever has or ever will get along with Lindor. It was clear from even before the "rat" incident that there was a culture clash and there is no Cliff Floyd type guy on the roster who is bridging the gap...

Conforto: What a disaster for him! All he needed to do was perform like he has every other healthy year in his career and he would be signing a $200M+ contract. Now he's likely to be going after a prove it deal somewhere

Dom: How? A guy who dominated every at bat last year now gets dominated every at bat. A hitting machine his whole life...then lost it?

The further disappointment with this is that you can already see it: One or all of these guys will probably benefit from a change of scenery and end up having all-star seasons again in different uniforms..
Sandy is  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2021 7:50 am : link
a soon to be 74 year old cancer survivor, I don't believe he and Steve Cohen are a "package deal". Weird phrasing for whoever used it.

Cohen is long-term, Sandy is not.

I don't think Sandy with the Mets is a lifetime appointment.

I can see him retiring or moving on after the season.

Plus, at some point and at some level a lot of the dysfunction and under-performance this year lies with Sandy.

Hard for Cohen to preach accountability and let Sandy skate.
If I get to play Uncle Steve  
Gmanfandan : 9/23/2021 8:40 am : link
Sandy is gone - Rojas is gone - JD is gone - Dom is gone - love to keep McNeil but he has to go too - unfortunately its not a huge salary dump even if we just get prospects back (which is what we should be after)

I try to sign Baez since that chemistry up the middle smells like a championship (now that no one is booing the fans)

Make the QO to Conforto and Thor - I think Stro is a FA and can't make the offer to him again but would be nice to re-sign - and see about extending Alonso

Go get a real CFer - THEN we still need to address the rotation - or depend on Walker - Megill - Cookie - Patterson and hope for Jake/Stro and Thor

Ok - never mind - Steve's problem not mine - I know there's not enough cash for all of it and without all of it we have too many holes.

I think we have a long way to go to be a dominant team for years. Alvarez, Baty, Allan and Vientos will help but they gotta hurry up.
RE: I mean it always sucks to lose  
Section331 : 9/23/2021 8:56 am : link
In comment 15379916 Rory said:
Quote:
but honestly we should want this. It will spark a full change within this organization.


That's a good point, rip off the band aid. Another season of 85 wins and everyone would lamenting how close we are.

We aren't.

We've over-hyped our players. And I think there is something wrong in the clubhouse. Obviously I'm not close enough to know what it is, but I suspect it bubbled to the surface in the "raccoon" incident. Whatever it is, management needs to figure it out.

Lindor isn't going anywhere, deGrom shouldn't go anywhere, other than that, there are a few guys I'd look to keep (Alonso, Stroman, Loup), sort the rest out.
RE: RE: I mean it always sucks to lose  
moze1021 : 9/23/2021 9:25 am : link
In comment 15380050 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15379916 Rory said:


Quote:


but honestly we should want this. It will spark a full change within this organization.




That's a good point, rip off the band aid. Another season of 85 wins and everyone would lamenting how close we are.

We aren't.

We've over-hyped our players. And I think there is something wrong in the clubhouse. Obviously I'm not close enough to know what it is, but I suspect it bubbled to the surface in the "raccoon" incident. Whatever it is, management needs to figure it out.

Lindor isn't going anywhere, deGrom shouldn't go anywhere, other than that, there are a few guys I'd look to keep (Alonso, Stroman, Loup), sort the rest out.


Hilarious that I referred to it as the "rat" incident!

So does that mean I'm subconsciously Team Lindor? And you're Team McNeil?
Yeah maybe its not rock bottom  
weeg in the bronx : 9/23/2021 9:29 am : link
The off season moves with the aforementioned players will do a lot to determine if we sink lower next year.
jmo but this season was a leadership failure  
Eric on Li : 9/23/2021 10:35 am : link
that started with the interim GM and manager first and foremost.

the team collapsed pretty much right after the interim GM had his press conference where he publicly called out his own players for not taking rehab seriously. It was first week of August if I recall correctly. And just a couple weeks after he lauded their lockerroom chemistry as "special".

the defense was among the best in the majors in the first half of the year and currently sits 11th in DRS. Meaning in the second half they turned into a pumpkin and dropped like a rock from being a huge positive to neutral at best.

and Rojas' inexperience managing super stars became obvious - starting with the raccoon thing and then later with the fans and the thumbs down. his job is literally to lead the team and when things were at their lowest he was unable to rally them in any meaningful way. And of course he made some very questionable tactical decisions as well.

there were also failures in injury management with both Thor & JDG. Over aggressiveness led to setbacks. Was this the interim GM or Sandy or a team medical advisor or the players themselves?

if I were to speculate on a theory it would be that one day in the not too distant future we will hear the details of Zack Scott's no good very bad weeks at the end of July and early August when the walls closed in on his chances of getting his interim title removed - the bungled draft, the public airing of dirty laundry, and the team ultimately quitting on each other and thereby the season. As well as Rojas' very bad weeks a few weeks later when Sandy had to issue the statement about the thumbs down stuff. I would imagine that was the moment Rojas knew there was no longer any chance he was coming back as manager.

i'm also pretty sure where things go from here is to an experienced management team. they rolled the dice on porter, then scott, and they got burned.
I'm stunned by how terrible  
Chris684 : 9/23/2021 12:36 pm : link
Conforto, McNeil and Smith were this year. They basically ruined our season.
The season  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2021 12:43 pm : link
was ruined when Jake went down around the AS break.

Even with struggling offense and uneven bullpen the Mets were in first place (albeit with a relatively easier schedule).

Jake being lost had a domino effect.

Jake's last 7 starts he gave up 18 hits combined, that's just over 2 hits per outing for the math challenged, he was on a historic pace and neutralized whatever starting pitcher he faced.
At the end of the 30 for 30 special on the 86 Mets,  
Beezer : 9/23/2021 12:56 pm : link
the importance of good chemistry could not have been more on display. Ray Knight may not have been a marquee player but he was a steady, veteran presence, as we have learned - not just on the field, but in the clubhouse. Offered $5,000 as a raise after being named the WS MVP.

And Kevin Mitchell, a super-versatile team player as a rookie, seemingly liked by the rest, and he's dealt after the WS win.

I don't claim to have any idea what's going on behind the clubhouse entryway, but am I alone in thinking there are factions of this team that simply don't enjoy playing the game with others?

Talent is great. But you cannot over-rate chemistry.
It’s the Hitting This Year  
Samiam : 9/23/2021 1:19 pm : link
This team rarely got a hit when it counted and that was the entire season. The injuries to the top of the rotation, the uneven bullpen plus the defense could have been a factor but if they had hit with runners in scoring position, they probably win the division. Also, they needed to be on the right side of some blowouts to give the bullpen time to rest.

Watching the 30 by 30 show on ESPN, which I totally recommend, tha team was a tough team and a clutch team. Leaving aside the difference in pitching staffs, they had players who were not all that talented but played with a grit this team does not have. I don’t think it came from the manager; maybe it was the team leadership. The current team has little of it.
RE: It’s the Hitting This Year  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15380382 Samiam said:
Quote:
This team rarely got a hit when it counted and that was the entire season. The injuries to the top of the rotation, the uneven bullpen plus the defense could have been a factor but if they had hit with runners in scoring position, they probably win the division. Also, they needed to be on the right side of some blowouts to give the bullpen time to rest.

Watching the 30 by 30 show on ESPN, which I totally recommend, tha team was a tough team and a clutch team. Leaving aside the difference in pitching staffs, they had players who were not all that talented but played with a grit this team does not have. I don’t think it came from the manager; maybe it was the team leadership. The current team has little of it.


Keith Hernandez, Darryl Strawberry, Gary Carter, Lenny Dykstra, Kevin Mitchell not all that talented? that's 5 of the starting 8. Add in Backman, HoJo (30/30 guy three times - 20/20 guy 5 times), Mookie, Backman, Knight, Teufel etc.

yes, they were gritty, but there was no shortage of offensive talent.
RE: RE: RE: I mean it always sucks to lose  
Section331 : 9/23/2021 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15380064 moze1021 said:
Quote:

Hilarious that I referred to it as the "rat" incident!

So does that mean I'm subconsciously Team Lindor? And you're Team McNeil?


Honestly, I was trying to remember what animals were involved! I do think there was friction between Lindor and McNeil, and that was part of the clubhouse problem. I'm decidedly on Team Lindor if that's the case.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I mean it always sucks to lose  
moze1021 : 9/23/2021 3:36 pm : link
In comment 15380403 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15380064 moze1021 said:


Quote:



Hilarious that I referred to it as the "rat" incident!

So does that mean I'm subconsciously Team Lindor? And you're Team McNeil?



Honestly, I was trying to remember what animals were involved! I do think there was friction between Lindor and McNeil, and that was part of the clubhouse problem. I'm decidedly on Team Lindor if that's the case.


Ohh I dont think there is any question... I think those guys straight up dislike each other.

On the '86 comments... thats funny.. I started watching last night and had the thought "wow, the Mets need grit, they need to be tougher...and they need a true leader".. I dont care how many people want to say Lindor is a leader.. leader's dont get into a fist fight with their double play partner and then blame it on rodents to the media.

I think it was Sid who said something like "Gary thought he was the leader, but Keith was the real leader behind the scenes"..

I think Lindor thinks he's the leader...but I don't think he has full buy in from this current group. Seems like he has a lot of parallels with Carter in terms of flashiness and media attention...but in Carter's first game as a Met he hit a game winning HR and got instant credibility! Lindor definitely didnt get off to that type of start.




Didn't Keith  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2021 4:15 pm : link
Hernandez and Darryl Strawberry get in a fight on team picture day in 1989?

I think Alonso needs to be the leader on the Mets. He certainly says all the right things publicly.


A baseball team isn’t one player and deGrom isn’t the reason  
CooperDash : 9/23/2021 6:42 pm : link
that the Mets season went down the tubes. And the likelihood of deGrom continuing that pace over a full season is very slim at best.

This teams issue has always been hitting and leadership. They were never as good as it seemed because the pitching (ALL of them) was tops in the league and the rest of the division was under .500. Seasoned, quality managers got these teams over the hump. And the sad part is that even until very recently, the Mets has every chance to get back in it. But their manager and team leadership is a joke.

They never seemed to have a plan for Walkers innings increase. Rojas is just horrible - his tactical and lineup decisions were just bad. And while I like Baez as a player, it was absolutely a nonsensical trade. I firmly believe that they made that trade to appease their new star - Lindor.

I don’t think this team is as far off as some of you do, but they have some work to do on the mental makeup of this team. They are in desperate need of veteran leadership.
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