for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

What's wrong with Saquon Barkley?

shadow_spinner0 : 9/23/2021 2:13 pm
This video solves the Saquon Barkley case and perfectly explains why he produced the same since his rookie year.
Link - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Umm  
mattlawson : 9/23/2021 2:21 pm : link
Our line isn't any good?
that was really  
Pork Chop : 9/23/2021 2:23 pm : link
interesting. I don't know enough to comment about the analysis, but maybe it's not all OL play or playcalling.
Good analysis  
JonC : 9/23/2021 2:23 pm : link
highlighting his issues with vision and decision making.
Nothing is wrong with SB, I think people have unfair expectations.  
Kmed6000 : 9/23/2021 2:24 pm : link
SB is 100% healthy....physically, but anyone that has been through this knee injury can tell you, the psychological aspect is the last hurdle. I think he's a little tentative right now, but I expect him to break out big moving fwd. Anyone who says he isn't 100% physically recovered is completely wrong. If he wasn't, the Giants would be complete morons to play him. He hasn't played in a year because of a devastating knee injury. Those things take time to recover from, psychologically.

SB will be fine(assuming no new injuries) and I think the negative SB posts and articles end after this week.
Even the run he pointed out back in 2018  
mattlawson : 9/23/2021 2:30 pm : link
There was nothing to run through. He was stopped everywhere he could’ve gone
RE: Nothing is wrong with SB, I think people have unfair expectations.  
allstarjim : 9/23/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15380450 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
SB is 100% healthy....physically, but anyone that has been through this knee injury can tell you, the psychological aspect is the last hurdle. I think he's a little tentative right now, but I expect him to break out big moving fwd. Anyone who says he isn't 100% physically recovered is completely wrong. If he wasn't, the Giants would be complete morons to play him. He hasn't played in a year because of a devastating knee injury. Those things take time to recover from, psychologically.

SB will be fine(assuming no new injuries) and I think the negative SB posts and articles end after this week.


Sadly, they won't.
RE: Nothing is wrong with SB, I think people have unfair expectations.  
Pork Chop : 9/23/2021 2:49 pm : link
In comment 15380450 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
SB is 100% healthy....physically, but anyone that has been through this knee injury can tell you, the psychological aspect is the last hurdle. I think he's a little tentative right now, but I expect him to break out big moving fwd. Anyone who says he isn't 100% physically recovered is completely wrong. If he wasn't, the Giants would be complete morons to play him. He hasn't played in a year because of a devastating knee injury. Those things take time to recover from, psychologically.

SB will be fine(assuming no new injuries) and I think the negative SB posts and articles end after this week.


I'm not a good X's and O's guy, so i don't really know, but the video is making the argument that SB is making bad decisions on running plays that are well designed and he has blocking. I don't know if that's due to injury/psychology or not, but it's an interesting watch.

Regardless, I think we all agree that hopefully it gets fixed ASAP.
Working back from a major injury  
US1 Giants : 9/23/2021 2:50 pm : link
not sure we will ever see him at this best again.
He's going to make some plays,  
Jerry in_DC : 9/23/2021 2:55 pm : link
probably starting this week. He was a horrible pick, but that doesn't mean he's a horrible player.
His biggest problem is not the line or injuries.  
NY-Fan : 9/23/2021 2:59 pm : link
His problem is exactly what was stated in this video. He is an undisciplined runner with poor vision, lack of pure power and relies to much on his god given athletic ability believing that he can turn every play into a TD while surrounded by gifted athletes who are trying to stop him.

I still believe he can be one of the greatest backs to ever play the game but he must become more patient if he is ever going to become that. He has to learn to take what the defense gives him, even if sometimes it ends up for only a yard or two. He must learn to use his tremendous lower body for strength to over power players that are smaller than he is as well. For as big and strong as his legs are he does not use or run with the power you would expect.

It is still early in his career and he is still learning but with his contract situation and lack of playing time due to injuries he is running out of time to cement my belief that the Giants should honor him with a second contract if things do not improve. Sure they can always franchise tag him but I would still like to see more consistency with production and his health before deciding to honor him with that second contract.
Reminds me  
Pork Chop : 9/23/2021 3:02 pm : link
of Jack Clark and Dave Kingman. Always swinging for the fences. Some magnificent HRs, but some bloody bad whiffs too.
RE: Reminds me  
Victor in CT : 9/23/2021 3:13 pm : link
In comment 15380484 Pork Chop said:
Quote:
of Jack Clark and Dave Kingman. Always swinging for the fences. Some magnificent HRs, but some bloody bad whiffs too.


I think you're reaching there PC. Clark was a MUCH better hitter than Kingman.

Funny thing, today Kingman would be just average in terms of Ks. he
Jack Clark Stats - ( New Window )
Pork Chop, here is the link to Kingman's  
Victor in CT : 9/23/2021 3:16 pm : link
his .236 lifetime is better than I thought, but still well below Clark's .267, and that .267 was only that low from his last few years being subpar.
Dave Kingman stats - ( New Window )
What's wrong with him is that  
arniefez : 9/23/2021 3:20 pm : link
he's been paid for 50 games, missed 17 of them completely and played injured in about a dozen more and is still playing injured.
I wish SB got the line way faster than he does.  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 9/23/2021 3:21 pm : link
Seems from the snap to the hand off to SB getting to the line takes about 3 seconds every single time, LBS have moved up and there's never any holes. Doesn't help that his liability in pass protection is known.
jesus that was depressing.  
japanhead : 9/23/2021 3:23 pm : link
the lack of vision part especially. i always thought this was an issue but wasn't positive it couldn't be pinned on the OL. this seems to confirm it. an NFL RB with poor vision is useless.

eli bradshaw and jacobs had a funny way of making the OL look better than they likely were.

jones and barkley seem to have the opposite effect.
RE: Pork Chop, here is the link to Kingman's  
Pork Chop : 9/23/2021 3:24 pm : link
In comment 15380495 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
his .236 lifetime is better than I thought, but still well below Clark's .267, and that .267 was only that low from his last few years being subpar. Dave Kingman stats - ( New Window )


haha no argument. I can't even remember what my kids' middle names are these days. I know all the names, but I forget which name goes with which kid ;)
This is a must-view video - about 5 minutes in length so check it out  
cosmicj : 9/23/2021 3:25 pm : link
He simply isn’t a particularly good football player beneath the god-given athletic abilities. It seems like he doesn’t understand his role.
I think he'll improve as he gets back into it  
Daniel in MI : 9/23/2021 3:28 pm : link
Some of this analysis that said our line is getting better is taking into account times SB wasn't there (2020). The 1.5 games he played in 2020 he had no chance most of the time.

Some of the criticism is warranted, but I don't necessarily mind the hero ball AT TIMES. The at times being the key. Second and short? Sure. Take your chance.

But in a situation like we had last week when a single first down ends the game, just get in the hole hard, use those tree trunks to plow a DB, and get 4-5 yards.
RE: RE: Pork Chop, here is the link to Kingman's  
Victor in CT : 9/23/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15380504 Pork Chop said:
Quote:
In comment 15380495 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


his .236 lifetime is better than I thought, but still well below Clark's .267, and that .267 was only that low from his last few years being subpar. Dave Kingman stats - ( New Window )



haha no argument. I can't even remember what my kids' middle names are these days. I know all the names, but I forget which name goes with which kid ;)


LOL that's funny!
Nothing, other than  
Beer Man : 9/23/2021 3:30 pm : link
coming back from a major injury and surgery, not having played for a year, standing on the sidelines almost all of the preseason
Good video  
trueblueinpw : 9/23/2021 3:31 pm : link
Really solid analysis with good use of stats and film to substantiate the hypothesis.

One thing the analyst doesn’t mention is Barkley’s mentality. I know he’s battled through injuries and that NFL football is tough and painful to play. But Barkley seems to me to shy away from contact both before and after his injuries.

NFL players and coaches say that pass pro is a mentality and more attitude than a physical quality. Here again, Barks is supremely physically talented and should be able to be dominate in pass pro. But he’s not often great at pass pro and that would again lead me to believe he’s adverse to the contact.

Walter Payton is the greatest back I’ve ever seen play the game. Speed, power, worked in the passing game and was smart and had the heart of lion and was always team first. Great, great football player and by all accounts a great man. He never ran out of bounds or avoided taking contact. Just the other day, I was surprised to see Walter Payton on a 30 and 30 episode about Buddy Ryan and the Bears and Sweetness was complaining to the media about the pounding he was taking game after game. So, even Sweetness felt the beating and pain and he certainly played on Bears teams every bit as bad as the Barkley Giants teams. But he produced game in and game out at a HOF level. I wonder if much of what prevents Barkley from being a truly great back is his mentality?

Anyway - great post and thanks to the OP.
TL:DW version  
Biteymax22 : 9/23/2021 3:34 pm : link
Barkley is, and always has been, a boom or bust runner who relies on the HR play for production in the running play.

This approach only works for the top 1% of athletes at his position.

When healthy he is at the top 1% of athletes for his position.

When not healthy, he can't get away with this approach.

He wasn't health in 2018 due to the ankle and isn't himself this year either. I know some of you are going to play the "He's healthy or the coaching staff wouldn't play him" card, but there's a mental aspect to coming back from an ACL as well, he isn't himself.

Even if fully healthy, Barkley would still be much more productive by freelancing less and staying to the script of the play. When not 100%, this is necessary to produce.
RE: Umm  
Jim in Tampa : 9/23/2021 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15380444 mattlawson said:
Quote:
Our line isn't any good?

You should watch the video and not simply offer the default excuse that "it's the OL".

The analyst in the video suggests that it's more about Barkley's decision making than the line's blocking.
interesting analysis  
Victor in CT : 9/23/2021 3:41 pm : link
as I’ve said before. More Walter Payton, less Barry Sanders. At 235 lbs. he shouldn’t be avoiding DBs, he should be running them over.

He was the same way in college  
shadow_spinner0 : 9/23/2021 3:42 pm : link
Look at his games, he'd have a 92 yard run against Washington in the Fiesta Bowl and do little the rest of the game. I do feel they should use him in the passing game more tho.
.  
Gruber : 9/23/2021 3:46 pm : link
Sometimes he needs to just go straight through, whereas he seems to want to cut back the moment he sees a defensive player ahead of him, and he cuts back into a melee of players and gets stuffed. It's like he doesn't want to be a bruiser, and that's what he needs to add to his game.
I am so torn, I think SB is just a fantastic person  
Essex : 9/23/2021 3:49 pm : link
and a fantastic athletic talent that can score, when healthy, from anywhere on the football field. On the other hand, he is a not an efficient RB, he is often injured, and we picked him second. It leads to a lot of mixed emotions, but unfortunately more of the later than the former.
He’s got to  
Les in TO : 9/23/2021 3:53 pm : link
Cut out the hero ball. The Giants would be better off with a 100 yards based on 20 5 yard runs, instead of 19 1 yard runs and 1 81 yard highlight reel run. It sets up manageable down/distance scenarios and helps move the chains. We need him to be a Jeter not an Adam Dunn
"Very quick  
The Jake : 9/23/2021 3:54 pm : link
to abandon structure and tries to do everything himself." That essentially sums Barkley up.

I would also add that Barkley seems to have little instinct for running north/south. He's much more interested in trying to make people miss than he is in picking up yardage when it's a matter of taking contact or avoiding it.
I wonder if he ever gets called out in the film room  
ron mexico : 9/23/2021 5:26 pm : link
It doesn't seem like he does.
RE: .  
ron mexico : 9/23/2021 5:28 pm : link
In comment 15380543 Gruber said:
Quote:
Sometimes he needs to just go straight through, whereas he seems to want to cut back the moment he sees a defensive player ahead of him, and he cuts back into a melee of players and gets stuffed. It's like he doesn't want to be a bruiser, and that's what he needs to add to his game.


Between his running style and inability to pass protect, I think its safe to say he is afraid of contact
Good video and worth watching if you haven't.  
chick310 : 9/23/2021 5:31 pm : link
Still plenty of times that that the porous OL has indeed failed Saquon, but it is a fair stance that Saquon's running style creates issues as well.

nothing is wrong with him ...to answer  
MotownGIANTS : 9/23/2021 5:31 pm : link
to answer the main post (physically) ... However mentally he is not over the mental hurdle from his injury, that long run and hopefully a good week of practice has helped that a great deal.

As to his style everyone knows he needs to run tougher ... The RB coaches have to be telling him it constantly (You would hope and believe) ... if he can't change or won't change then Judge (Garrett) has to do what he says he does put in positions to succeed ... screens, out in motion, tosses, sweeps, stretch plays and outside counters with minimal pass-pro, use as a chipper
RE: Umm  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/23/2021 6:05 pm : link
In comment 15380444 mattlawson said:
Quote:
Our line isn't any good?

Umm

Did you understand the point the video, or did you just not bother to watch it in the first place?
Hope he isn't a bust.  
rocco8112 : 9/23/2021 6:06 pm : link
What if Jones and Barkley don't pan out, what a disaster.
one thing about Saquon  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/23/2021 6:20 pm : link
is that he was more reliant on his absurd cutting ability than most backs.

I was always a little concerned about a man of his size/weight, who made insanely explosive cuts the way he did. He truly is a rare athlete, I've never seen a player be able to balance themselves better while jumping over a defender than PSU Saquon. It didn't even look human the amount of balance he had in the air.

I think that entire freakish physical combination is something that put a lot of pressure on his lower body joints and tendons. They've kind of figured out in baseball that pitchers shouldn't try to throw any harder than they do now, their arms would basically fall apart if they threw 110 mph. Saquon kind of felt like a player who walked that fine line of "maybe a guy at that size who's that musclebound shouldn't be cutting so violently all the time".

He seems hesitant to go back to that "magical" cutting ability too often. He clearly isn't 100% comfortable with it yet, which isn't a surprise since his injury can often have a 2 year period before feeling 100%.

His vision and the way he slowly hits the holes has always been a problem, and it's why I'm not a big fan of the "Saquon was hit in the backfield on 15/20 rushes etc." stats we often see. But he got away with it due to obscene athleticism. Right now, that athleticism isn't there yet.

I don't know what to think, I'm hoping that his athleticism returns but even then he has clear flaws as a runner that might never improve. His ceiling is still the best position player in football if he puts it all together, but time runs out quickly at the RB position and that injury closes that window even further.
He  
capegman : 9/23/2021 6:22 pm : link
needs a good sports psychologist to get it in his head how big and strong he is and to lower that shoulder more often at the second level. He has the opportunity for way more 5 yard runs by just lowering that shoulder north and south more often. Seems to go against his instincts.
As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
bw in dc : 9/23/2021 6:34 pm : link
this was something that was very evident in college. SB's off-script, ad-hoc style. But Barkley could get away with it because he was just better athletically than almost every player he played against (except Ohio State).

But in the NFL there are just more athletes everywhere. So you just need more discipline to take what the defense gives you.
SB's less disciplined style just doesn't work as often. Thus, the stats the host in the video illustrated - break away yards vs. stuffed yardage.

It's like playing golf on a tough course. Sometimes you jut have to play for the par and not the birdie.

Now, to be fair, you have to factor in the injury. SB clearly looks like he wants to avoid contact rather than take it on - right now.

Unless he can get over that, and get more disciplined with taking what the defense gives him, the Giant should try to trade SB by the trade deadline (if we are out of it) or this offseason. Keeping him would be a dumb move.

SB ain't Henry. A legit NFL workhouse who can do his work between the tackles and outside...
this is really depressing  
islander1 : 9/23/2021 6:39 pm : link
.
One of the problems with the  
Now Mike in MD : 9/23/2021 7:35 pm : link
analysis is that he discusses the imporvement in the OL's run blocking in 2020 to try to argue the SB didn't improve with improved run blocking. The problem with is obvious. SB was out for the vast majirity of 2020. And the runblocking did not improve until the latter part of the year. The first few games SB was routinely getting hit behind the LOS
It was a ridiculous pick  
joeinpa : 9/23/2021 7:43 pm : link
Even when he was healthy. Anyone who watched him at Penn State understood he was a big play back, who in between big plays was very ineffective.

He was never going to be a player worthy of the # 2 pick in the Draft.
Gettleman just was irresponsible with this pick
RE: As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
Thegratefulhead : 9/23/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15380647 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this was something that was very evident in college. SB's off-script, ad-hoc style. But Barkley could get away with it because he was just better athletically than almost every player he played against (except Ohio State).

But in the NFL there are just more athletes everywhere. So you just need more discipline to take what the defense gives you.
SB's less disciplined style just doesn't work as often. Thus, the stats the host in the video illustrated - break away yards vs. stuffed yardage.

It's like playing golf on a tough course. Sometimes you jut have to play for the par and not the birdie.

Now, to be fair, you have to factor in the injury. SB clearly looks like he wants to avoid contact rather than take it on - right now.

Unless he can get over that, and get more disciplined with taking what the defense gives him, the Giant should try to trade SB by the trade deadline (if we are out of it) or this offseason. Keeping him would be a dumb move.

SB ain't Henry. A legit NFL workhouse who can do his work between the tackles and outside...
If we lose against the Falcons we should definitely trade Barkley. He would be a monster in KC or Baltimore because 2nd and long is no big deal.
RE: As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
Producer : 9/23/2021 7:50 pm : link
In comment 15380647 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this was something that was very evident in college. SB's off-script, ad-hoc style. But Barkley could get away with it because he was just better athletically than almost every player he played against (except Ohio State).

But in the NFL there are just more athletes everywhere. So you just need more discipline to take what the defense gives you.
SB's less disciplined style just doesn't work as often. Thus, the stats the host in the video illustrated - break away yards vs. stuffed yardage.

It's like playing golf on a tough course. Sometimes you jut have to play for the par and not the birdie.

Now, to be fair, you have to factor in the injury. SB clearly looks like he wants to avoid contact rather than take it on - right now.

Unless he can get over that, and get more disciplined with taking what the defense gives him, the Giant should try to trade SB by the trade deadline (if we are out of it) or this offseason. Keeping him would be a dumb move.

SB ain't Henry. A legit NFL workhouse who can do his work between the tackles and outside...


I think athletically SB is light years ahead of Henry. Henry can't run with Barkley and he can't cut with him. And both are big play backs who don't excel into the line under normal conditions.

Henry needs 30 carries to feast. His first couple of years he would take a step and fall down if there was a defender near him. He is still like that early in games. Henry excels when he can get to the second level and turn on his speed. He's a slow accelerator but has massive top end straight line speed, and he's so big, when he gets in gear, he's impossible to take down. and those holes open generally later in games when the defense is tiring of tackling him. Make no mistake, Henry is a home run hitter, like Barkley.

The back who is better than both of them, is Nick Chubb.
As with all complex issues, it's not just one thing....  
Kanavis : 9/23/2021 8:01 pm : link
Blocking hasn't been good, expectations were overly inflated coming out of college, injuries and bad luck, and a running style that some overlooked when he was drafted.

I would not say he isn't tough or afraid of contact. He rarely fumbles and is usually a reliable pass catcher. I would say though that at times, he seems to be more interested in being a superstar than a running back.

Not sure I can blame him. He has otherworldly lateral movement and speed when healthy. I do think he would have taken some of Gallman's openings all the way last year. But in a passing league, teams need their RBs to make the most of what is there. With boom or bust running backs, we are in too many 3rd and long situations. Add that to a shaky offensive line and a QB who has had a turnover problem in the past, the 3-4 yard gain in a pile of bodies on first down becomes even more important. He just doesn't run like that. The DE chip or blitz pickup is also really important for this line and he hasn't really excelled there either.

I don't think he has the ability, vision, drive or whatever is needed to take what is there from down to down. I agree that he should be used as more of a change of pace and 3rd down back where appropriate. But again, the pass blocking issues don't go away there.
when Barkley came out I worried his running style  
Producer : 9/23/2021 8:03 pm : link
invited injury.

Those highlight reel plays where he leaves his feet made me nervous. He is too willing to jump in the air. I feel he is very prone in those situations.
RE: RE: As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
bw in dc : 9/23/2021 8:05 pm : link
In comment 15380681 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 15380647 bw in dc said:


Quote:


this was something that was very evident in college. SB's off-script, ad-hoc style. But Barkley could get away with it because he was just better athletically than almost every player he played against (except Ohio State).

But in the NFL there are just more athletes everywhere. So you just need more discipline to take what the defense gives you.
SB's less disciplined style just doesn't work as often. Thus, the stats the host in the video illustrated - break away yards vs. stuffed yardage.

It's like playing golf on a tough course. Sometimes you jut have to play for the par and not the birdie.

Now, to be fair, you have to factor in the injury. SB clearly looks like he wants to avoid contact rather than take it on - right now.

Unless he can get over that, and get more disciplined with taking what the defense gives him, the Giant should try to trade SB by the trade deadline (if we are out of it) or this offseason. Keeping him would be a dumb move.

SB ain't Henry. A legit NFL workhouse who can do his work between the tackles and outside...

If we lose against the Falcons we should definitely trade Barkley. He would be a monster in KC or Baltimore because 2nd and long is no big deal.


ATL game is enormous for so many reasons. You know who could make SB a complete RB? Shanahan in San Fran.
RE: RE: As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
bw in dc : 9/23/2021 8:17 pm : link
In comment 15380685 Producer said:
Quote:


I think athletically SB is light years ahead of Henry. Henry can't run with Barkley and he can't cut with him. And both are big play backs who don't excel into the line under normal conditions.

Henry needs 30 carries to feast. His first couple of years he would take a step and fall down if there was a defender near him. He is still like that early in games. Henry excels when he can get to the second level and turn on his speed. He's a slow accelerator but has massive top end straight line speed, and he's so big, when he gets in gear, he's impossible to take down. and those holes open generally later in games when the defense is tiring of tackling him. Make no mistake, Henry is a home run hitter, like Barkley.

The back who is better than both of them, is Nick Chubb.


SB may be the most athletic player in the NFL. But you are right on Henry. He just grinds a defense down like a tree stump. I am always amazed how he can run away from defenders with his size and running style. Once he gets to the second level, he can really separate.

What could have been if we played it smart in 2018 and taken Chubb in round two as the RB solution...
RE: RE: RE: As a PSU fan for 30+ years...  
Producer : 9/23/2021 8:25 pm : link
In comment 15380698 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15380685 Producer said:


Quote:




I think athletically SB is light years ahead of Henry. Henry can't run with Barkley and he can't cut with him. And both are big play backs who don't excel into the line under normal conditions.

Henry needs 30 carries to feast. His first couple of years he would take a step and fall down if there was a defender near him. He is still like that early in games. Henry excels when he can get to the second level and turn on his speed. He's a slow accelerator but has massive top end straight line speed, and he's so big, when he gets in gear, he's impossible to take down. and those holes open generally later in games when the defense is tiring of tackling him. Make no mistake, Henry is a home run hitter, like Barkley.

The back who is better than both of them, is Nick Chubb.



SB may be the most athletic player in the NFL. But you are right on Henry. He just grinds a defense down like a tree stump. I am always amazed how he can run away from defenders with his size and running style. Once he gets to the second level, he can really separate.

What could have been if we played it smart in 2018 and taken Chubb in round two as the RB solution...


Barkley is a freak. he is unreal acceleration and cutting ability for a man his size.

Henry is a freak. His top end speed is unreal for a man with his size and power.
At this point regardless of injury  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/23/2021 9:07 pm : link
McCaffrey is a better player. And in the end I bet had the much better career. It's not all OL. Barkley is soft
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner