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Kadarius Toney - Man of mystery ...

Manny in CA : 9/24/2021 6:52 pm

Here we are going into week #3, #1 pick, and he's only made a cameo appearance; not even special teams (CJ Board, who ?), is doing kick-returns.

And now, it's reported that he's coming back from injury; what, when ?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/whats-making-giants-rookie-kadarius-194403211.html
Manny in CA  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 7:06 pm : link
It is almost like you haven't been paying attention for the last six months.
RE: Manny in CA  
Jints in Carolina : 9/24/2021 7:19 pm : link
In comment 15381721 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It is almost like you haven't been paying attention for the last six months.


Something ain't right with this whole situation.
Jason Garrett’s response  
prdave73 : 9/24/2021 7:21 pm : link
To the whole situation is a joke.. Especially about rookie WR’s take time to develop in the nfl?? Umm.. not true. We see a whole lot of rookie WR’s contributing right now and in the past?! That answer was so a typical Giants response! Honestly if I was the owner, I would have fired him in the spot after that response..
RE: Jason Garrett’s response  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 7:26 pm : link
In comment 15381736 prdave73 said:
Quote:
To the whole situation is a joke.. Especially about rookie WR’s take time to develop in the nfl?? Umm.. not true. We see a whole lot of rookie WR’s contributing right now and in the past?! That answer was so a typical Giants response! Honestly if I was the owner, I would have fired him in the spot after that response..


No.

If you know anything at all about Toney coming out of school, it was that he needed a ton of pro coaching on running routes. It was mentioned over and over again in scouting reports.

Toney missed all of the OTA, all of the training camp practices, and all three preseason games. He's starting from scratch.

You guys don't seem to want to accept that for some reason.

All rookies are NOT the same. And most rookies who missed all of the time Toney has missed would be in the same boat.
But  
Les in TO : 9/24/2021 7:29 pm : link
Why isn’t he returning kicks and punts? Not as complex as learning pro routes
RE: But  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 7:30 pm : link
In comment 15381748 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Why isn’t he returning kicks and punts? Not as complex as learning pro routes


Did you read Thomas McGaughey's comments on Thursday?

Something tells me you didn't.

My guess is 90 percent of the readers of the site no longer read the transcripts/watch the video of the coordinator interviews.
 
ryanmkeane : 9/24/2021 7:39 pm : link
Toney was the 20th overall pick. There’s a myth going around that every single first round WR is somehow good right away. Not at all true.

There’s a big difference between a blue chip WR prospect and a player like Toney who needs a lot more time.

Again - did people not know this or expect this? Every draft pick isn’t a game changer immediately, especially at WR.

RE: RE: But  
christian : 9/24/2021 7:48 pm : link
In comment 15381750 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Did you read Thomas McGaughey's comments on Thursday?

Something tells me you didn't.

My guess is 90 percent of the readers of the site no longer read the transcripts/watch the video of the coordinator interviews.


The only mention of Toney I see in that transcript is also in the linked story. Did I miss something else? This doesn’t seem that informative.

Quote:
At some point in time, when the opportunity presents itself, it'll happen. He's got a lot of things he's working through on the offense, but he'll be fine. When it's time for him to get back there, he'll be back there, and he'll make a play. It'll come.
Garrett said:  
JohnB : 9/24/2021 7:49 pm : link
“Our guys are going to earn their opportunities, earn their opportunities to get a jersey, to play and to get opportunities within the game.”

KT hasn't EARNED the right to play yet. Nothing in the NFL is "given" to players, they have to take it away from someone else. It really looks like KT needs to learn that lesson.

Go earn it!!!!
RE: …  
christian : 9/24/2021 7:49 pm : link
In comment 15381758 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Again - did people not know this or expect this? Every draft pick isn’t a game changer immediately, especially at WR.


That’s a bit of a straw man no? Who’s on record expecting him to be a game changer?

In terms of expectations, did you expect he not contribute to specials and barely play on offense?
christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 7:50 pm : link
Yes. Tom is basically saying that Toney is concentrating on offense right now.

Special teams is more than just catching the ball and running up the field. If you've watched any Joe Judge breakdowns on Giants.com, you know this.

I've said it for years, there are only so many practices now under the CBA, and practice times are smaller (some only last an hour).
The Giants picked the wrong WR….it’s that’s simple  
Rick in Dallas : 9/24/2021 7:51 pm : link
Bateman, the 2 Moore’s and Marshall should have been the pick.
All 4 more complete WR’s than Toney the gadget WR.
RE: …  
Thegratefulhead : 9/24/2021 7:54 pm : link
In comment 15381758 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Toney was the 20th overall pick. There’s a myth going around that every single first round WR is somehow good right away. Not at all true.

There’s a big difference between a blue chip WR prospect and a player like Toney who needs a lot more time.

Again - did people not know this or expect this? Every draft pick isn’t a game changer immediately, especially at WR.
Based on the talent on the roster, we REALLY needed a player that could contribute right away. I am a "show me" kind of person. In my opinion, some of his preseason loss of time is on him. He needs to be getting to the facility early and leaving late to earn the trust he needs to get on the field. We need his big play potential NOW. This week, 0-3 and the season is cooked.
its been a parade  
thrunthrublue : 9/24/2021 7:55 pm : link
of first round busts......through injury/car accidents/armed robberies.......now toney demonstrating a better disappearing act than David Blane!
RE: RE: But  
Les in TO : 9/24/2021 7:57 pm : link
In comment 15381750 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15381748 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Why isn’t he returning kicks and punts? Not as complex as learning pro routes



Did you read Thomas McGaughey's comments on Thursday?

Something tells me you didn't.

My guess is 90 percent of the readers of the site no longer read the transcripts/watch the video of the coordinator interviews.
You are correct I did not. Most people don’t have time to click on every link, especially special teams coordinator transcripts.
You know it’s not all about KT  
prdave73 : 9/24/2021 8:10 pm : link
Not being utilized that really concerns me, it’s a whole lot more to it that just that. If KT had so many concerns and questions marks, why would the GM & scouts pick him in the 1st rd?! There were some concerns with this pick.. So why take the gamble and draft another Sterling Shepherd clone? There was other key areas they could of been addressed in the 1st rd? Oline which usually gets ignored in drafts, LB’s, DE’s? I’m sorry but I just see a lot of issues with the Giants Organization. Like why Jason Garrett? If Garrett didn’t have that much success with that Dallas Beast of an Oline, that RB, those WR”a, and that great QB, what makes you think he can with the Giants?? DC from Miami? The culture, player development & Utilization, Scouting, etc.. IMO, and just my opinion, this Organization seems to be making all the wrong moves.
RE: christian  
christian : 9/24/2021 8:11 pm : link
In comment 15381767 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Yes. Tom is basically saying that Toney is concentrating on offense right now.

Special teams is more than just catching the ball and running up the field. If you've watched any Joe Judge breakdowns on Giants.com, you know this.


Something is weird.

I find it interesting the WR coach is quoted as saying Toney has a strong grasp of the offense. I get he’s physically behind, but lots of young WRs at the bottom of the depth chart get their start in the return game.

And you see guys like Rondale Moore, picked after Toney not only get in the field on offense, but return punts too.
So, regardless of missed time  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 9/24/2021 8:22 pm : link
we drafted a developmental WR at 20.
Toney skipped all the optional stuff too  
UberAlias : 9/24/2021 8:29 pm : link
When others were at Duke where he could have been building chemestry with his QB, he passed. And optional work, he passed on that too. He had reputation of having a learning curve coming in, which is not a surprise to many who followed his college career. You don’t just show up on an NFL field and play.
christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 8:30 pm : link
This isn't that hard.

The only way you learn how to run routes is to do it on the practice field.

He can learn the plays/concepts in the classroom, but you only really learn how to perfect your trade by doing it.

If a WR is off by sometimes a few inches, an interception occurs. I bet you half the picks you see in a game where it looks like the QB was nowhere near his target was the fault of the target not running a precise route.

When the out pattern says break off your route at 8 yards, it doesn't mean 7.5 or 8.5 yards. It means 8 yards.

Anyone who has followed Giants football for years knows there are WRs who have had issues learning route running, and these were guys who didn't miss the entire summer.
and again  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9/24/2021 8:32 pm : link
route running in the NFL doesn't mean, "hey Toney, run a slant."

Toney has to adjust his route base on both pre- and post-snap reads.
I'm on both sides of this.  
CT Charlie : 9/24/2021 8:47 pm : link
1) As a fan, I really want to see this super-talented guy cut loose and dazzle the league.

2) Because of the tiny amount of practice time he's had, he may not be ready to play "right" – even on returns.

3) Our starting slot receiver, Shep, is one concussion away from missing a lot of games. I hope for the best, but Toney's role could change quickly.
RE: So, regardless of missed time  
bwitz : 9/24/2021 8:58 pm : link
In comment 15381788 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:
Quote:
we drafted a developmental WR at 20.


Is that not the status of pretty much every WR when they’re drafted?
I remember  
Daniel in MI : 9/24/2021 9:22 pm : link
A guy who took some time to get to a pro level. He started slow, some STs, took about 3 years for the light to really come on. That was Amani Toomer. (No jewlz, just regular.)

The kid is 3rd game in with a lot of missed time. We’d all like him to come in and just OBJ it, but guys develop at different rates. He’s got to learn to run routes and read Ds so he is where he is supposed to be when he’s supposed to be there.
Put me in the wait and see camp. It's hard to pass judgment on any  
Ira : 9/24/2021 9:22 pm : link
rookie early in his first season. But when you have a rookie who is relatively raw and missed most of training camp and pre-season, it's not reasonable to draw serious conclusions.
For the love of god  
kes722 : 9/24/2021 9:37 pm : link
We arnt even into week 3 of his rookie year.

Give it some time people.

Eli…. Was awful all training camp, preseason and regular season of his rookie year

OBJ hadn’t even seen the field at this point

Thomas was a “bust” at this point

Should I keep going?

Most of all rookies take a year or to adjust to the NFL…chill the fuck out

RE: christian  
christian : 9/24/2021 9:42 pm : link
In comment 15381795 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
This isn't that hard.

The only way you learn how to run routes is to do it on the practice field.


I think everyone who followed Toney in college and the draft process understands he has a learning curve at the position.

The Giants running a program where a rookie cannot contribute to the punt return game as they develop their receiving skills seems to be an outlier.

Especially when this receiver appears to be understandably at the bottom of the depth chart and the dude returning punts right now is average 3.3 yards.
Too much complaint re: toney  
Payasdaddy : 9/24/2021 9:45 pm : link
It’s 2 games into his career. Give the whining a break
Sure. It may be a lost season, or first half yr
Could’ve we used a more polished wr as of now? Sure
But that’s m9nday morning qb stuff
Receivers can take time  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/24/2021 9:46 pm : link
Toney played for a very good offensive mind in Dan Mullen. Maybe try to incorporate something he excelled at. This is why I don’t like rigid systems.

According to Coughlin  
jc in c-ville : 9/24/2021 10:23 pm : link
“ He has a head”.
Toney may be a decent player at some point  
eric2425ny : 9/24/2021 10:47 pm : link
but in today’s NFL first round picks are usually starters or high rep backups for most teams. The goal is to get effective starter caliber play from a guy on a “reasonable” contract.

So if he is a developmental prospect picked in round 1 we are basically grooming him for the next team that signs him.

I hope I’m wrong, but I haven’t liked this pick from the time it was made.
RE: Manny in CA  
Ned In Atlanta : 9/24/2021 11:17 pm : link
In comment 15381721 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It is almost like you haven't been paying attention for the last six months.


If you can’t see why people have serious reservations about Toney I don’t know what to tell you. If you actually believe all of his many issues during his 5 month tenure with the team are related to physical injuries I also don’t know what to tell you
The problem for Toney is that Golladay has been a ghost and  
Ben in Tampa : 9/24/2021 11:17 pm : link
Slayton is a goof

If those guys were producing, everyone would be ok that Toney is a bit of a project with high upside.

But those two guys have been huge disappointments through 2 weeks, so now everyone gets frustrated about Toney.
I do appreciate the fact that he needs to learn his trade ...  
Manny in CA : 9/24/2021 11:27 pm : link

All I'm saying is that the circumstances that have surrounded him are cumulatively just a wee bit peculiar - tweeks his foot
wearing wrong cleats, Covid positive, hints unhappiness with role, now he has an "ankle". All the time Judge barely speaks about him - the team's #1 draft pick. ....

While the team is 0-2 and desperately needs all the difference makers it can put on the field.
RE: RE: Jason Garrett’s response  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/25/2021 2:16 am : link
In comment 15381742 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15381736 prdave73 said:


Quote:


To the whole situation is a joke.. Especially about rookie WR’s take time to develop in the nfl?? Umm.. not true. We see a whole lot of rookie WR’s contributing right now and in the past?! That answer was so a typical Giants response! Honestly if I was the owner, I would have fired him in the spot after that response..



No.

If you know anything at all about Toney coming out of school, it was that he needed a ton of pro coaching on running routes. It was mentioned over and over again in scouting reports.


Right. But the issue is that rookies who need "a ton of pro coaching on running routes" usually are 3rd round picks at best.

So fans are a little pissed that #20 overall has done literally less than nothing so far.
The rookies  
allstarjim : 9/25/2021 4:35 am : link
That have been on the field making plays so far have been practicing with their team.

There's no path to playing time when you have missed all the practices that Toney has. Has nothing to do with him being a "developmental guy" or not. He needs to contribute on the practice field before he has any real opportunity to contribute during games that matter.
RE: RE: But  
Matt M. : 9/25/2021 4:54 am : link
In comment 15381750 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15381748 Les in TO said:


Quote:


Why isn’t he returning kicks and punts? Not as complex as learning pro routes



Did you read Thomas McGaughey's comments on Thursday?

Something tells me you didn't.

My guess is 90 percent of the readers of the site no longer read the transcripts/watch the video of the coordinator interviews.
SO, what did he say?
RE: christian  
leatherneck570 : 9/25/2021 9:07 am : link
In comment 15381795 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
This isn't that hard.

The only way you learn how to run routes is to do it on the practice field.

He can learn the plays/concepts in the classroom, but you only really learn how to perfect your trade by doing it.

If a WR is off by sometimes a few inches, an interception occurs. I bet you half the picks you see in a game where it looks like the QB was nowhere near his target was the fault of the target not running a precise route.

When the out pattern says break off your route at 8 yards, it doesn't mean 7.5 or 8.5 yards. It means 8 yards.

Anyone who has followed Giants football for years knows there are WRs who have had issues learning route running, and these were guys who didn't miss the entire summer.


This is nonsense. Rondale Moore for example has made most of his money this year on broken plays not because he ran his route +/- .5 yds. Toney has a similar skill set and yet we can’t figure out how to get him the ball. Something stinks here.
Maybe it’s the pick  
leatherneck570 : 9/25/2021 9:16 am : link
Maybe it’s the coaches
Maybe it’s the playcalling
Or maybe it’s DJ.

Not sure what it is, but it’s something.
RE: RE: christian  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/25/2021 9:18 am : link
In comment 15381918 leatherneck570 said:
Quote:
In comment 15381795 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


This isn't that hard.

The only way you learn how to run routes is to do it on the practice field.

He can learn the plays/concepts in the classroom, but you only really learn how to perfect your trade by doing it.

If a WR is off by sometimes a few inches, an interception occurs. I bet you half the picks you see in a game where it looks like the QB was nowhere near his target was the fault of the target not running a precise route.

When the out pattern says break off your route at 8 yards, it doesn't mean 7.5 or 8.5 yards. It means 8 yards.

Anyone who has followed Giants football for years knows there are WRs who have had issues learning route running, and these were guys who didn't miss the entire summer.



This is nonsense. Rondale Moore for example has made most of his money this year on broken plays not because he ran his route +/- .5 yds. Toney has a similar skill set and yet we can’t figure out how to get him the ball. Something stinks here.


I don’t get Eric’s point here, all signs point to him knowing the playbook, running routes at wrong depths is either a knowledge or agility issue, neither describe Toney. There’s a lot more intricacies to route running, like giving up your intentions or what the best do, confusing defenders inside out. He’s playing off ball so hand fighting isn’t really relative for him. I just don’t think they trust a Rookie right now when we have 3 vets ahead of him.

He played 20 snaps last week, which is fine. The real
Issue is HOW he’s being used. He ran a bunch of hitches and go/clear outs on the field. Of course he’s pissed with how he’s being used. We should be using him a ton in motion, faking jet sweeps, make them honor it until they don’t, and then give him the ball. Garrett doesn’t believe in the eye candy stuff though, so let’s see if he can figure out how to use him.

I’m really, really hoping that they don’t trust the OL right now and that’s why the screen game is missing because with Toney and Saquon there’s no other excuse for it not being in playbook.
Btw  
leatherneck570 : 9/25/2021 9:19 am : link
Moore only played in 7 games total in his last two years of college. So don’t try to tell me he’s this master route runner or this pro ready receiver out of school.
RE: RE: RE: christian  
leatherneck570 : 9/25/2021 9:42 am : link
In comment 15381928 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15381918 leatherneck570 said:


Quote:


In comment 15381795 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


This isn't that hard.

The only way you learn how to run routes is to do it on the practice field.

He can learn the plays/concepts in the classroom, but you only really learn how to perfect your trade by doing it.

If a WR is off by sometimes a few inches, an interception occurs. I bet you half the picks you see in a game where it looks like the QB was nowhere near his target was the fault of the target not running a precise route.

When the out pattern says break off your route at 8 yards, it doesn't mean 7.5 or 8.5 yards. It means 8 yards.

Anyone who has followed Giants football for years knows there are WRs who have had issues learning route running, and these were guys who didn't miss the entire summer.



This is nonsense. Rondale Moore for example has made most of his money this year on broken plays not because he ran his route +/- .5 yds. Toney has a similar skill set and yet we can’t figure out how to get him the ball. Something stinks here.



I don’t get Eric’s point here, all signs point to him knowing the playbook, running routes at wrong depths is either a knowledge or agility issue, neither describe Toney. There’s a lot more intricacies to route running, like giving up your intentions or what the best do, confusing defenders inside out. He’s playing off ball so hand fighting isn’t really relative for him. I just don’t think they trust a Rookie right now when we have 3 vets ahead of him.

He played 20 snaps last week, which is fine. The real
Issue is HOW he’s being used. He ran a bunch of hitches and go/clear outs on the field. Of course he’s pissed with how he’s being used. We should be using him a ton in motion, faking jet sweeps, make them honor it until they don’t, and then give him the ball. Garrett doesn’t believe in the eye candy stuff though, so let’s see if he can figure out how to use him.

I’m really, really hoping that they don’t trust the OL right now and that’s why the screen game is missing because with Toney and Saquon there’s no other excuse for it not being in playbook.


Exactly! And Moore has Hopkins, Kirk, and Green in front of him and they’re ALL producing and providing value.
No pick is perfect  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 9/25/2021 10:00 am : link
And ive been sympathetic to Toney’s situation, but the fact is, we could have gone about any direction with #20, yet here we are.
This kid seems  
Carson53 : 9/25/2021 10:28 am : link
a bit on the immature side, just needs to grow up a bit.
Garrett could get him involved in the offense as well.
I also don't know why he is not returning kicks,
can leave Peppers returning punts.
The real mystery  
Rambo : 9/25/2021 11:48 am : link
is how fans have media available related to OTA's, preseason and injuries/Covid .............and cannot put two and two together = that play who missed OTA's, preseason and lost time with Covid is not playing much now and likely DOESNT KNOW THE PLAYBOOK.
WOW,...  
MarkT : 9/25/2021 11:52 am : link
It's true, you can't teach stupid.
Eric  
GiantsFan84 : 9/25/2021 12:08 pm : link
Toney has returned punts before. It’s not something that’s overly difficult. He could easily return punts for this team if they wanted him to. That stuff about not being able to return punts because he’s focusing on offense is bull.

Everything I’ve read seems like the coaches are mad at him for not practicing or for not taking practice seriously. They haven’t fully said that but reading between the lines they do not seem thrilled
RE: RE: But  
Gman11 : 9/25/2021 2:18 pm : link
In comment 15381750 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:

My guess is 90 percent of the readers of the site no longer read the transcripts/watch the video of the coordinator interviews.


I used to read all the interviews - coaches and players - but they became a stream of stupid questions and canned answers that left you knowing no more than you did prior to reading them. Don't blame the fans. Blame the media for not asking pertinent questions and the coaches for saying a bunch of nothing.
RE: Eric  
chick310 : 9/25/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15382018 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
Toney has returned punts before. It’s not something that’s overly difficult. He could easily return punts for this team if they wanted him to. That stuff about not being able to return punts because he’s focusing on offense is bull.

Everything I’ve read seems like the coaches are mad at him for not practicing or for not taking practice seriously. They haven’t fully said that but reading between the lines they do not seem thrilled


Toney has been dealing with his “situations” since he was drafted. Once all his situations have run their course and football becomes the absolute priority then hopefully he begins to help the team. We’ll see if that happens here in 2021.
Most concerning  
Grizz99 : 9/25/2021 4:24 pm : link
He chose not to make any of the voluntary workouts that Jones initiated during the preseason pre-season.
Then he held out in the preseason proper because his contract wasn't signed. A detail that didn't seem to matter to anyone else, and, in fact, was covered by insurance.
Covid was likely avoidable. A cleat made no sense then or now.
Hamstrings, ankles, covid, insurance, Jone's safari neglected (2 x's), improper cleats that worked for the other 79, etc. Etc..
Let's find a way to blame Garrett...whoops, they beat me to it. Maybe it's the media's fault.

.  
David Dooley : 9/25/2021 4:51 pm : link
Time to get David Sills off the practice squad and put Glass Toney on IR.
.  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 9/25/2021 8:00 pm : link
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