win Super Bowls.
Jones needs to play like an "elite" quarterback. Every decade since the start of the Super Bowl era, 80% of championships are won by teams with elite quarterbacks, the other 20% by teams with average quarterbacks. Go through the games of any decade and do your own count and see what you come up with. I bet you come up with similar numbers.
If you assume that only 25% of quarterbacks are elite, which is being generous, then 8 elite quarterbacks are winning 80% of the championships while the other 24 average quarterbacks are winning the remaining 20% (again, do your own count).
If you think of the Super Bowl as a raffle with 1,000 tickets, then this is the same as the 8 pro bowl caliber quarterbacks sharing 800 tickets (100 tickets each) while the other 24 share 200 tickets, which would be 8.33 tickets each.
This means that if you have an elite quarterback you are 12 times more likely to win the Super Bowl than if you have an average quarterback.
You could poke holes in this "back of the napkin" analysis. You could point out that you could do this for any position. Or that the classification of a QB as elite is done AFTER he wins the Super Bowl, so this is looking in the rear view mirror. But I think this still holds water. If you have an elite quarterback your chances of winning the Super Bowl are an order of magnitude higher than if you have "just a guy".
DJ cannot be "just a guy".
Sorry. My point is that the bar for DJ has to be set at "elite", not "good enough to win". "Elite" gives you more than an order of magnitude better chance of winning it all than "good enough to win". The goal isn't to get to the playoffs, it's to win it all.
This should give a different perspective on the discussions around the 5th year option. If we don't see a QB that can become one of the top 8 in the league, then we should cut bait and go for the next guy.
P Manning/Broncos (Peyton was way past his prime at this point)
Flacco/Ravens
Brad Johnson Bucs
Dilfer Ravens
Yup. Markky’s point is well taken.
That's a fair question. I put Eli in the elite category because of his play in the Niners game. Very few quarterbacks could do what he did that day. But it is a fair question.
Another QB you might question is Plunkett. He's probably not in the elite group but he did win 2 SBs.
Again, I suggest everyone do their own count and see if it's similar. I bet it is.
You want to win Super Bowls, get an elite QB by any means necessary. Even if you have a good QB already.
Andy Reid did this dumping A Smith for Mahomes
McVay did this swapping Goff for Stafford
Shanny did this by drafting Trey Lance, making Jimmy G a lame duck
Kingsbury dumped Rosen and added Murray
This is what smart teams do.
If you stand pat with decent - you lose.
The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite talent at the QB position. You don't wait for a mediocrity to become average or decent. You'll almost never win.
You make a point that Joes needs to play like an elite QB but then you go on to say 20% of the past winners were average. Well- which is it?
Lok at San Fran from 2 years ago. How good was Jimmy G? Not elite for sure. Yet they traded for him and got the the Super Bowl. And look at Tannehll - did nothing for Miami and got to Tenn he helped get his team to Conference Championship.
Tannehill's rating as a QB was number 1 in the NFL (he wasn't the best ofc but had an elite rating though none of us would say he was elite). And Jimmy G was number 8.
It seems like what posters like you are suggesting or implying is "Fuck going to the Super Bowl or getting to Conference Championship. Unless we have Mahomes or Rodgers then the hell with anyone else. Either we have an elite QB or just fuck the season."
You have to try to win with what you have. And put your team in the best chance to win. Guys like Jimmy G and Tannehill, though nothing special brought their teams some very good success despite not winning the Super Bowl. You wouldn't trade that for the shit show the Giants have given the last several years?
For me, all I'm saying is try to win. And giving DJ this shit-show OL is not trying. But I am all for getting a better QB -absolutely.
You make a point that Joes needs to play like an elite QB but then you go on to say 20% of the past winners were average. Well- which is it?
Lok at San Fran from 2 years ago. How good was Jimmy G? Not elite for sure. Yet they traded for him and got the the Super Bowl. And look at Tannehll - did nothing for Miami and got to Tenn he helped get his team to Conference Championship.
Tannehill's rating as a QB was number 1 in the NFL (he wasn't the best ofc but had an elite rating though none of us would say he was elite). And Jimmy G was number 8.
It seems like what posters like you are suggesting or implying is "Fuck going to the Super Bowl or getting to Conference Championship. Unless we have Mahomes or Rodgers then the hell with anyone else. Either we have an elite QB or just fuck the season."
You have to try to win with what you have. And put your team in the best chance to win. Guys like Jimmy G and Tannehill, though nothing special brought their teams some very good success despite not winning the Super Bowl. You wouldn't trade that for the shit show the Giants have given the last several years?
For me, all I'm saying is try to win. And giving DJ this shit-show OL is not trying. But I am all for getting a better QB -absolutely.
The point is, if you try to win with a mediocre QB, your chances are very long. Not impossible but the odds are against you. Full stop. If you have a mediocre QB you are almost guaranteed not to sniff a championship.
That's what Andy Reid realized when he moved on from Alex Smith.
You make a point that Joes needs to play like an elite QB but then you go on to say 20% of the past winners were average. Well- which is it?
Lok at San Fran from 2 years ago. How good was Jimmy G? Not elite for sure. Yet they traded for him and got the the Super Bowl. And look at Tannehll - did nothing for Miami and got to Tenn he helped get his team to Conference Championship.
Tannehill's rating as a QB was number 1 in the NFL (he wasn't the best ofc but had an elite rating though none of us would say he was elite). And Jimmy G was number 8.
It seems like what posters like you are suggesting or implying is "Fuck going to the Super Bowl or getting to Conference Championship. Unless we have Mahomes or Rodgers then the hell with anyone else. Either we have an elite QB or just fuck the season."
You have to try to win with what you have. And put your team in the best chance to win. Guys like Jimmy G and Tannehill, though nothing special brought their teams some very good success despite not winning the Super Bowl. You wouldn't trade that for the shit show the Giants have given the last several years?
For me, all I'm saying is try to win. And giving DJ this shit-show OL is not trying. But I am all for getting a better QB -absolutely.
sure, 20% of past winners were average, but 24 teams had average QBs. 80% were elite and 8 teams had elite QBs. You NEED to be one of the 8 teams.
Let me put it this way. If you have an elite QB your chance of winning the SB is 80% * (1/8) = 10% each year!! If you have an average QB your chance of winning the SB is 20% * (1/24) = 0.833%!!! (yes, less than 1%).
If you have an average QB, your chance of winning the Super Bowl each year is less than 1%.
You need an elite QB.
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Let's clear that up right now. But your entire point is completely contrary to what you pointed out.
You make a point that Joes needs to play like an elite QB but then you go on to say 20% of the past winners were average. Well- which is it?
Lok at San Fran from 2 years ago. How good was Jimmy G? Not elite for sure. Yet they traded for him and got the the Super Bowl. And look at Tannehll - did nothing for Miami and got to Tenn he helped get his team to Conference Championship.
Tannehill's rating as a QB was number 1 in the NFL (he wasn't the best ofc but had an elite rating though none of us would say he was elite). And Jimmy G was number 8.
It seems like what posters like you are suggesting or implying is "Fuck going to the Super Bowl or getting to Conference Championship. Unless we have Mahomes or Rodgers then the hell with anyone else. Either we have an elite QB or just fuck the season."
You have to try to win with what you have. And put your team in the best chance to win. Guys like Jimmy G and Tannehill, though nothing special brought their teams some very good success despite not winning the Super Bowl. You wouldn't trade that for the shit show the Giants have given the last several years?
For me, all I'm saying is try to win. And giving DJ this shit-show OL is not trying. But I am all for getting a better QB -absolutely.
sure, 20% of past winners were average, but 24 teams had average QBs. 80% were elite and 8 teams had elite QBs. You NEED to be one of the 8 teams.
Let me put it this way. If you have an elite QB your chance of winning the SB is 80% * (1/8) = 10% each year!! If you have an average QB your chance of winning the SB is 20% * (1/24) = 0.833%!!! (yes, less than 1%).
To make matters worse for the teams with average QBs. You are competing with 23 other teams to be the one or two teams per decade that win that way. Whereas, if you have an elite QB you are competing for the share of 80% of the titles with only seven other teams.
That's math folks. You can choose to deny it. But building up the rest of your team without a plan to acquire an elite QB is virtually a waste of time.
I have been saying the same thing on this board since the day I joined.
How did Mahomes look with a terrible oline in the playoffs?
How many superbowls has Aaron Rodgers won? been to?
You dont have to be elite to win a superbowl, you have to be elite in big spots..
That was eli big spots he was elite, the rest of the time he was good..
I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
How did Mahomes look with a terrible oline in the playoffs?
How many superbowls has Aaron Rodgers won? been to?
You dont have to be elite to win a superbowl, you have to be elite in big spots..
That was eli big spots he was elite, the rest of the time he was good..
I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
great .. so you expect Daniel Jones to turn into Eli Manning. The one non-elite QB who has elite playoff runs, the only one in recent memory, maybe the only one in generations. Eli is a unicorn. He's not happening again to the Giants. You can't turn Daniel Jones into Eli Manning. You have a better shot of drafting the nect Justin Herbert.
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The point is, if you try to win with a mediocre QB, your chances are very long. Not impossible but the odds are against you. Full stop. If you have a mediocre QB you are almost guaranteed not to sniff a championship.
1-- The point is if you don't try to win then your chances are zero. Don't you understand? You have ZERO CHANCDE if you don't try?
2--- Now you're twsiting what the OP siad to fit yoru narrative. The psoter said 20% of mediocre QB's won. You said "guaranteed not to sniff a championship."
With respect, you're making exaggerated points to fit your narrative.
Let me repeat to you what the op said:
--------------------------
"the other 20% by teams with average quarterbacks."
------------------------
How come you twisted this to
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"If you have a mediocre QB you are almost guaranteed not to sniff a championship."
-------------------------
Yet you said the OP is 100% correct yet you are saying something completely contrary to what he posted about average QB's winning 20% of the time. That certainly is "sniffing."
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and who is and who isnt..
How did Mahomes look with a terrible oline in the playoffs?
How many superbowls has Aaron Rodgers won? been to?
You dont have to be elite to win a superbowl, you have to be elite in big spots..
That was eli big spots he was elite, the rest of the time he was good..
I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
great .. so you expect Daniel Jones to turn into Eli Manning. The one non-elite QB who has elite playoff runs, the only one in recent memory, maybe the only one in generations. Eli is a unicorn. He's not happening again to the Giants. You can't turn Daniel Jones into Eli Manning. You have a better shot of drafting the nect Justin Herbert.
Who said i expected that?
Qbs are called elite because of what they do in big games
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In comment 15389856 giantstock said:
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The point is, if you try to win with a mediocre QB, your chances are very long. Not impossible but the odds are against you. Full stop. If you have a mediocre QB you are almost guaranteed not to sniff a championship.
1-- The point is if you don't try to win then your chances are zero. Don't you understand? You have ZERO CHANCDE if you don't try?
2--- Now you're twsiting what the OP siad to fit yoru narrative. The psoter said 20% of mediocre QB's won. You said "guaranteed not to sniff a championship."
With respect, you're making exaggerated points to fit your narrative.
Let me repeat to you what the op said:
--------------------------
"the other 20% by teams with average quarterbacks."
------------------------
How come you twisted this to
-----------------
"If you have a mediocre QB you are almost guaranteed not to sniff a championship."
-------------------------
Yet you said the OP is 100% correct yet you are saying something completely contrary to what he posted about average QB's winning 20% of the time. That certainly is "sniffing."
I don't think you are understanding the math.
YOU don't have a 20% chance to win a title - all 24 teams combined have a 20% chance to win a title. The OP is correct. Your chances are somewhere below 1%. With all due respect, that's virtually not sniffing a title.
I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
I tend to think he is not being put in thr best situation to succeed because of a number of factors..
Do i think he is mahones or rodgers? hell no but i do think there are traits he has that can be used to make him more effective and the team is just not doing it
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I don't think you are understanding the math.
YOU don't have a 20% chance to win a title - all 24 teams combined have a 20% chance to win a title. The OP is correct. Your chances are somewhere below 1%. With all due respect, that's virtually not sniffing a title.
Well it all due respect he was loading average QB's in one class and mediocre QB';s in the other.
80% Elite vs 20% non elite. 20% according to him a non-elite QB will win. And again Jimmy G didn''t win but got there. And Tannehill didn't win it all but to COnf Championship.
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
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In comment 15389879 giantstock said:
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I don't think you are understanding the math.
YOU don't have a 20% chance to win a title - all 24 teams combined have a 20% chance to win a title. The OP is correct. Your chances are somewhere below 1%. With all due respect, that's virtually not sniffing a title.
Well it all due respect he was loading average QB's in one class and mediocre QB';s in the other.
80% Elite vs 20% non elite. 20% according to him a non-elite QB will win. And again Jimmy G didn''t win but got there. And Tannehill didn't win it all but to COnf Championship.
Meant to say he was loading elite in one class. Adn others in the other.
If you want to further talk elite - Rodgers won one. Yet we call him elite. Brees one won, and we call him elite. Which they are. But we lump them (the eleite) into one number to reflect the 80%--
but then according to Producer we don't lump "the average QB's" in the other?
This is classic example of changing the narrative.
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
Zack Rosenblatt
@ZackBlatt
·
7h
There are a lot of bad #Giants offensive stats from Jason Garrett’s tenure, but the one I keep going back to:
Daniel Jones has thrown 13 touchdowns in 17 games with Garrett.
He threw 24 in 13 games with Pat Shurmur.
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Well now that we're into absurdity. Let me play along.
Are you suggesting that you, Go Terps, and BW can be Hebert's lead Offensive Linemen and help lead him to a tile.
After all guys like Brees and Rodgers only won one, but I'm sure that now Hebert's team is depleted it will be no time at all that the chargers could hire you guys for OL help that Hebert needs to win it all.
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Well now that we're into absurdity. Let me play along.
Are you suggesting that you, Go Terps, and BW can be Hebert's lead Offensive Linemen and help lead him to a tile.
After all guys like Brees and Rodgers only won one, but I'm sure that now Hebert's team is depleted it will be no time at all that the chargers could hire you guys for OL help that Hebert needs to win it all.
lol.. no, I would be no help whatsoever.
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In comment 15389896 Producer said:
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
Or maybe it is that the best qbs have the best teams..
How did Mahomes look with no oline?
Why is Tom Brady the goat? by all measurementd he should be an average qb, why is he the goat?
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15389896 Producer said:
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
Or maybe it is that the best qbs have the best teams..
How did Mahomes look with no oline?
Why is Tom Brady the goat? by all measurementd he should be an average qb, why is he the goat?
By what measurement is Tom Brady an average QB?
The resistance to this point is so weird to me. We are Giants fans. We want the Giants to be good. The attachment some people have to Jones is mind boggling to me. Why do we care about him?
Its similar to conversations about Eli. But Eli is a Giants legend. I can at least understand the attachment to him, even if it made sense to move on. Jones? I get that he's "easy to root for", but where is this attachment coming from? Why are people committed to arguing for winning with Jones rather than just winning?
Besides, the next QB might also be "easy to root for".
Think about if the NFL just started over. What do you want on your team? Obviously a great QB. In a league redraft, how many QBs would get picked before the 1st non QB? 10? More? If you had the 20th pick, how much would you give up to move into the top 3? I'd give a ton.
It doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl. Rodgers might actually be the goat and he only has 1. But a great QB puts you in the mix consistently. And its just so darn hard to build anything sustainable if you don't have that QB.
So does Jones need to be elite? No, but there's not really anyone else on the roster to compensate if he's not
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15389896 Producer said:
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389875 nygiants16 said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
Or maybe it is that the best qbs have the best teams..
How did Mahomes look with no oline?
Why is Tom Brady the goat? by all measurementd he should be an average qb, why is he the goat?
By what measurement is Tom Brady an average QB?
coming into the league? average arm, average atheltic ability..
He became thr goat because he is smart as shit and had the greatest coach of all time to help him become a great qb
So does Jones need to be elite? No, but there's not really anyone else on the roster to compensate if he's not
elite qbs dont win by themselves, it doesnt matter how good they are, they dont win by themselves..
The key is to get a great qb with a great team, just an elite qb doesnt win you anything
However like you mentioned, Daniel Jones is not winning a Super Bowl. Take 49ers/Chiefs. When it came time for Mahomes to make plays, he did. When it came time for Jimmy G to make plays, he didn't. That was a difference in that game (obviously with abandoning the run and choking on defense) in that game. To win in this league, you need an elite QB. Seems the Giants, and many fans in general feel like you can win by running the ball and stopping the run and win with a game manage. This isn't 1985.
The resistance to this point is so weird to me. We are Giants fans. We want the Giants to be good. The attachment some people have to Jones is mind boggling to me. Why do we care about him?
Its similar to conversations about Eli. But Eli is a Giants legend. I can at least understand the attachment to him, even if it made sense to move on. Jones? I get that he's "easy to root for", but where is this attachment coming from? Why are people committed to arguing for winning with Jones rather than just winning?
Besides, the next QB might also be "easy to root for".
Think about if the NFL just started over. What do you want on your team? Obviously a great QB. In a league redraft, how many QBs would get picked before the 1st non QB? 10? More? If you had the 20th pick, how much would you give up to move into the top 3? I'd give a ton.
It doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl. Rodgers might actually be the goat and he only has 1. But a great QB puts you in the mix consistently. And its just so darn hard to build anything sustainable if you don't have that QB.
Beautifully stated.
I don't know why there is this resistance to the idea of just winning. I think different people have different biases. Some people want to think the NFL is more complex and building other parts of the team is as important (it's important but not nearly as critical as getting the QB right). Also I think people become emotionally invested in a player picked by your team. Rather than viewing him as another millionaire trying to do a job with a lot at stake, they view him as a little brother, and attach unnecessary emotion to the player. We're Giants fans, why shouldn't we want the next Giants QB to be Johnny Unitas, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Pat Mahomes. I guarantee they will fall in love with that guy too.
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In comment 15389912 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15389891 giantstock said:
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I dont need Jones to be Elite but i need him to be Elite when the team needs him to be..
Again - this is all a vicious circle. And I'm with many that say if you can get a better QB - sure go for it.
But how can he realistically be elite if his OL sucks? His Tight End sucks. In game 3 what good receivers did he have late other than Golladay?
And from what we heard from Banks about Barkley?
Don't you have to add up all this and recognize yes I want a better QB but this team sucks and there are positions worse than him?
Let's put it another way. the Giants would be better off trading their entire team for Justin Herbert and rebuilding from there. They would be better off trading their next 5 number one picks for Patrick Mahomes. You may think that sounds absurd. I guarantee you, The Chargers wouldn't take that deal, and neither would the Chiefs. The whole game is to get an elite QB - period. You do what it takes, or you are not really playing in this league. You are just the Washington Generals to teams who have great quarterbacks.
Do you watch the NFL?
QBS do not win by themselves, teams win championships, a qb can win a singular game but they dont win championships by thenselves..
Take away hill, kelce and andy reid is Mahomes qn elite qb?
Rodgers is one of the bes qbs of all time and has won 1 championship..
Dan Marino arguable one of the greatest ever has won nothing..
Russell wilson without legion of boom defense and marshawn lynch what has he won?
And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
Or maybe it is that the best qbs have the best teams..
How did Mahomes look with no oline?
Why is Tom Brady the goat? by all measurementd he should be an average qb, why is he the goat?
By what measurement is Tom Brady an average QB?
coming into the league? average arm, average atheltic ability..
He became thr goat because he is smart as shit and had the greatest coach of all time to help him become a great qb
I think there is more to Tom Brady's excellence than smart as shit. He has unreal touch and ball placement to go along with leadership intangibles and the greatest pocket awareness of all time.
i am not talking about now, i am talking about when he came out of college which i clearly stated..
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
right, and without Peyton they win zero. And they likely go to none of those AFC Championship games. If you win one Super Bowl a decade you are doing pretty good, right?
The resistance to this point is so weird to me. We are Giants fans. We want the Giants to be good. The attachment some people have to Jones is mind boggling to me. Why do we care about him?
Its similar to conversations about Eli. But Eli is a Giants legend. I can at least understand the attachment to him, even if it made sense to move on. Jones? I get that he's "easy to root for", but where is this attachment coming from? Why are people committed to arguing for winning with Jones rather than just winning?
Besides, the next QB might also be "easy to root for".
Think about if the NFL just started over. What do you want on your team? Obviously a great QB. In a league redraft, how many QBs would get picked before the 1st non QB? 10? More? If you had the 20th pick, how much would you give up to move into the top 3? I'd give a ton.
It doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl. Rodgers might actually be the goat and he only has 1. But a great QB puts you in the mix consistently. And its just so darn hard to build anything sustainable if you don't have that QB.
What if you don't have an elite QB? DO you give up and stop trying?
Should San Frna not have bothered trading for Jimmy G? And Tenn not have bothered Tannehill?
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
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How many SBs did he win with the Colts in his prime and the best qb in the league? 1 right? because he had no running game, a bad ol and no defense..hmm
right, and without Peyton they win zero. And they likely go to none of those AFC Championship games. If you win one Super Bowl a decade you are doing pretty good, right?
And without a good OL, and overall team how many titles would Philly have won? SO because their window was really only 1 year they should have just given up and not bothered with Foles as even a backup?
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How many SBs did he win with the Colts in his prime and the best qb in the league? 1 right? because he had no running game, a bad ol and no defense..hmm
right, and without Peyton they win zero. And they likely go to none of those AFC Championship games. If you win one Super Bowl a decade you are doing pretty good, right?
1 sb with one of the greatest qbs of all time is an epic failure and jist proves you have an elite qb it doesnt mean your winning suoerbowls, there is more to winning than jist having the qb
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
They dumped him, which they havnt yet he is still thr stsrter, because he is always hurt and he cant be trusted to stay healthy..
They win when he is healthy
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An elite QB is absolutely critical to competing at the highest level. Think about some current teams, say the Browns and Vikings who are generally pretty good. Does anybody like them to win a Super Bowl? Probably not, because of the QBs, both of whom are decent.
The resistance to this point is so weird to me. We are Giants fans. We want the Giants to be good. The attachment some people have to Jones is mind boggling to me. Why do we care about him?
Its similar to conversations about Eli. But Eli is a Giants legend. I can at least understand the attachment to him, even if it made sense to move on. Jones? I get that he's "easy to root for", but where is this attachment coming from? Why are people committed to arguing for winning with Jones rather than just winning?
Besides, the next QB might also be "easy to root for".
Think about if the NFL just started over. What do you want on your team? Obviously a great QB. In a league redraft, how many QBs would get picked before the 1st non QB? 10? More? If you had the 20th pick, how much would you give up to move into the top 3? I'd give a ton.
It doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl. Rodgers might actually be the goat and he only has 1. But a great QB puts you in the mix consistently. And its just so darn hard to build anything sustainable if you don't have that QB.
What if you don't have an elite QB? DO you give up and stop trying?
Should San Frna not have bothered trading for Jimmy G? And Tenn not have bothered Tannehill?
Nobody is saying that you don't try. It's a childish argument you are making.
You do what the Chiefs did. You proactively go out and acquire an elite talent no matter what. As an example, we should have drafted Justin Herbert even though we had Daniel Jones.
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In comment 15389938 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
They dumped him, which they havnt yet he is still thr stsrter, because he is always hurt and he cant be trusted to stay healthy..
They win when he is healthy
They're dumping him because he is not good enough for what they want to accomplish.
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In comment 15389946 Producer said:
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In comment 15389938 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
They dumped him, which they havnt yet he is still thr stsrter, because he is always hurt and he cant be trusted to stay healthy..
They win when he is healthy
They're dumping him because he is not good enough for what they want to accomplish.
If he was healthy last year and they made the playoffs would they have traded up for Lance?
You don't pass on Murray because you drafted Rosen the year before. You don't pass on Trey Lance because you have Jimmy Garoppolo. You don't pass on Herbert because you drafted Jones the year before. You don't pass on drafting Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, or trading up for Mahomes, because you have Eli Manning.
You never, ever pass on an opportunity to add an elite quarterback prospect. Ever.
However like you mentioned, Daniel Jones is not winning a Super Bowl. Take 49ers/Chiefs. When it came time for Mahomes to make plays, he did. When it came time for Jimmy G to make plays, he didn't. That was a difference in that game (obviously with abandoning the run and choking on defense) in that game. To win in this league, you need an elite QB. Seems the Giants, and many fans in general feel like you can win by running the ball and stopping the run and win with a game manage. This isn't 1985.
Same question for you--
what if you don't have the elite QB??? So until you get him, what do you do?
Some teams at least make some moves to win as many playoffs games as they can for that given year. You think it a waste for example to go to the SUper Bowl but probably won't win?
By the way, how did your analysis work out with Foles?
How about Super Bowl 2013?
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In comment 15389954 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15389946 Producer said:
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In comment 15389938 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
They dumped him, which they havnt yet he is still thr stsrter, because he is always hurt and he cant be trusted to stay healthy..
They win when he is healthy
They're dumping him because he is not good enough for what they want to accomplish.
If he was healthy last year and they made the playoffs would they have traded up for Lance?
yes.. he is a league average QB - tops. He is nothing special. They want special.
You don't pass on Murray because you drafted Rosen the year before. You don't pass on Trey Lance because you have Jimmy Garoppolo. You don't pass on Herbert because you drafted Jones the year before. You don't pass on drafting Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, or trading up for Mahomes, because you have Eli Manning.
You never, ever pass on an opportunity to add an elite quarterback prospect. Ever.
Bingo. That's the NFL. Either you're playing or you're losing.
You don't pass on Murray because you drafted Rosen the year before. You don't pass on Trey Lance because you have Jimmy Garoppolo. You don't pass on Herbert because you drafted Jones the year before. You don't pass on drafting Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, or trading up for Mahomes, because you have Eli Manning.
You never, ever pass on an opportunity to add an elite quarterback prospect. Ever.
Go Terps. Tell me which elite QB the Giants can get this year?
What about next year? Who can we get?
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In comment 15389957 Producer said:
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In comment 15389954 nygiants16 said:
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In comment 15389946 Producer said:
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In comment 15389938 giantstock said:
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In comment 15389906 Producer said:
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In comment 15389900 nygiants16 said:
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And yet, the list of Super Bowl champions and recurrent playoff teams is a who's who of elite QBs, top leaders in statistical areas. It is not a who's who of decent QBs with a good supporting cast.
By the way there is a mathematical reason for that too. To win with a mediocre QB you have to win on your wagers across the board. It's like hitting prop bets that you assembled a great O-line, D-line and secondary. But those prop bets rarely come in. So you rarely get a 2000 Ravens. But hit on the QB, and you are in the dance. It is easier to hit on a great QB than it is to hit the multiple prop bets it will take to assemble a good enough team to win with a mediocre QB.
But again you are twisting the narrative to fit your misguided opinion. This thread batched elite QB's in one category and non-elite in the other.
And secondly, you come up with nothing to just play well for the one year. By you using the word "recurrent" - you have twisted this into long-term.
Well how do you address trying to win now like what San Fran did with Jimmy G and Tenn did with Tannehill.
You would have have given up on them or not even bothered to trade for them because they weren't "elite?"
*********If you can't get an elite QB - then what's your suggestions for other teams? Just give up????
San Fran dumped their Super Bowl QB because he isn't good enough. That's the example that proves the point. If it was the Giants they would have signed Jimmy G to a lifetime deal because the fans love him.
They dumped him, which they havnt yet he is still thr stsrter, because he is always hurt and he cant be trusted to stay healthy..
They win when he is healthy
They're dumping him because he is not good enough for what they want to accomplish.
If he was healthy last year and they made the playoffs would they have traded up for Lance?
yes.. he is a league average QB - tops. He is nothing special. They want special.
And yet a special quarterback can be brought down by a suspect offensive line. Just watch the most recent Super Bowl.
But I honestly do not know. There is no rule saying there has to be an elite quarterback in a particular draft. I am confident we can improve on Jones though, and we can probably do it without using a first round pick.
Shit, we could send a fourth rounder to Philly for Minshew and improve the position immediately.
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Nobody is saying that you don't try. It's a childish argument you are making.
You do what the Chiefs did. You proactively go out and acquire an elite talent no matter what. As an example, we should have drafted Justin Herbert even though we had Daniel Jones.
Seriously??? You are talking to me about childish arguments with your nonsense about trading the whole team for a player???
Grow up.
Again you avoided the question. The year San Fran got to the SUper Bowl, should they have really tried knwoing Jimmy G was probably not going to get them to win?
And should have Tenn tried even though realizing that Tannehill wasn';t going to win?
And should have Philly tried knowing that Foles wasn't going to . . .
Ohh wait a minute. How about Baltimore with Flaaco? Ohh wait a minute . . .
But I honestly do not know. There is no rule saying there has to be an elite quarterback in a particular draft. I am confident we can improve on Jones though, and we can probably do it without using a first round pick.
Shit, we could send a fourth rounder to Philly for Minshew and improve the position immediately.
As an aside, I don't think Minshew is any better than Jones.
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In comment 15389943 giantstock said:
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Nobody is saying that you don't try. It's a childish argument you are making.
You do what the Chiefs did. You proactively go out and acquire an elite talent no matter what. As an example, we should have drafted Justin Herbert even though we had Daniel Jones.
Seriously??? You are talking to me about childish arguments with your nonsense about trading the whole team for a player???
Grow up.
Again you avoided the question. The year San Fran got to the SUper Bowl, should they have really tried knwoing Jimmy G was probably not going to get them to win?
And should have Tenn tried even though realizing that Tannehill wasn';t going to win?
And should have Philly tried knowing that Foles wasn't going to . . .
Ohh wait a minute. How about Baltimore with Flaaco? Ohh wait a minute . . .
Nobody ever suggested that teams shouldn't try. We are just saying job #1 is to acquire an elite QB because it changes the odds dramatically in your favor. That's it.
It is obvious and mathematically certain.
You don't wait 4 years to find out *what ya got* in a mediocre QB.
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Nobody is saying that you don't try. It's a childish argument you are making.
My point with you is that you've been childish since your war begin the last few weeks with Jones. I think you misrepresent things to fit your narrative.
Prove me wrong.
You said or implied ofc you try to win. -- Okay then how do you try to win with Jones?
My point has ben you have to try. I'm being childish that you (The Giants) have to try to win, and I've offered how. Then you also offer how they can? Otherwise when I say posters like you are giving up and not trying to win, how is that wrong?
San Fran didn't give up and got Jimmy G. THEY GOT TO A SUPER BOWL. Tenn didn't give up and THEY GOT to Conf. Championship. These were "mediocre Qb's." I want my team to try to win. It seems like you don't. Otherwise prove it. Other teams have shown you on a given year they can go far with a mediocre QB. Unless you think win is only a Super Bowl?
Otherwise I'll ask-- "You don';t want your team it win as much as they can?"
No.. I have no idea who they should consider drafting, if anybody. But I would have drafted Herbert. Heck I would keep drafting QBs til we found one. I am not afraid of so-called quarterback controversies.
OMg!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Classic non-answer!!!!!!!!!!
hahhaha great political answer and put yourself out there Producer. You've ben talking to Judge lately?
Hahhahaha - provide no specifics, right???
Shit, we could send a fourth rounder to Philly for Minshew and improve the position immediately.
Ridiculous.
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In comment 15389943 giantstock said:
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Nobody is saying that you don't try. It's a childish argument you are making.
My point with you is that you've been childish since your war begin the last few weeks with Jones. I think you misrepresent things to fit your narrative.
Prove me wrong.
You said or implied ofc you try to win. -- Okay then how do you try to win with Jones?
My point has ben you have to try. I'm being childish that you (The Giants) have to try to win, and I've offered how. Then you also offer how they can? Otherwise when I say posters like you are giving up and not trying to win, how is that wrong?
San Fran didn't give up and got Jimmy G. THEY GOT TO A SUPER BOWL. Tenn didn't give up and THEY GOT to Conf. Championship. These were "mediocre Qb's." I want my team to try to win. It seems like you don't. Otherwise prove it. Other teams have shown you on a given year they can go far with a mediocre QB. Unless you think win is only a Super Bowl?
Otherwise I'll ask-- "You don';t want your team it win as much as they can?"
I agree we need to try to win games with him, but we're 0-3 and we look bad. I'm not saying give up.
I am saying that the organizational priority needs to be to identify and bring in elite QB talent. Behind the scenes. On the field we keep trying, of course.
My worry is that the Giants brain trust doesn't understand this priority. Which is good for every other team, but bad for us, the fans.
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Nobody ever suggested that teams shouldn't try. We are just saying job #1 is to acquire an elite QB because it changes the odds dramatically in your favor. That's it.
It is obvious and mathematically certain.
Again you ignore the questions about San Fran and Tenn.
Jimmy G was NOT elite. Tannehhill was not elite.
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These others optional:
Should Balt have dumped Flaaco before they won it all?
Should Philly have dumped their QB's before winning it all?
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An elite QB is absolutely critical to competing at the highest level. Think about some current teams, say the Browns and Vikings who are generally pretty good. Does anybody like them to win a Super Bowl? Probably not, because of the QBs, both of whom are decent.
The resistance to this point is so weird to me. We are Giants fans. We want the Giants to be good. The attachment some people have to Jones is mind boggling to me. Why do we care about him?
Its similar to conversations about Eli. But Eli is a Giants legend. I can at least understand the attachment to him, even if it made sense to move on. Jones? I get that he's "easy to root for", but where is this attachment coming from? Why are people committed to arguing
What if you don't have an elite QB? DO you give up and stop trying?
Should San Frna not have bothered trading for Jimmy G? And Tenn not have bothered Tannehill?
It depends. There are times it makes sense for a team to invest in a competent QB. If a team is well stocked with talented veterans and doesn't have a QB, then sure. Get a decent guy and see what you can do. I'm not saying every team should tank. Sometimes you're in a position where you just have to take the best shot you can.
The Giants are not that. Say we had our 2008 team, nobody at QB. I'm fine with grabbing a Cousins type and just seeing if things break our way in the playoffs. But we don't have much right now- there's no point in carrying on with a low ceiling QB.
Jimmy G was NOT elite. Tannehhill was not elite.
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These others optional:
Should Balt have dumped Flaaco before they won it all?
Should Philly have dumped their QB's before winning it all?
No. So what?
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I
I agree we need to try to win games with him, but we're 0-3 and we look bad. I'm not saying give up.
I am saying that the organizational priority needs to be to identify and bring in elite QB talent. Behind the scenes. On the field we keep trying, of course.
My worry is that the Giants brain trust doesn't understand this priority. Which is good for every other team, but bad for us, the fans.
Then that's all I'm saying. We have to try to win, right?
And do you think we've been trying with the lousy OL?
WIth the lousy receivers until this year?
With the lousy tight ends?
Up until this year the Wr's were a failure, and isnt still the OL a failure and the tight ends a failure?
SO how is it that we're "trying to win?"
I do agree with you though- if a better QB they think is available -- go for it! For sure. I agree with you there.
In my opinion (which note I am not stating as a fact like some), when they do this analysis QB will not be at the top of that list. OL will, LB will, TE will, etc. When you look at this draft there really isn't a top QB, add in it won't be our #1 priority, and I expect all of you to be able to bitch about Jones for quite a bit more next season.
We lots of things, so putting #1 pick draft capital on replacing Jones in this draft likely doesn't happen (its not like the next Elway is out there). God help me if we swap out Jones for Rattler. Plus who wants a rookie QB out there behind this crap of a team anyway.
So does Jones need to be elite? No, but there's not really anyone else on the roster to compensate if he's not
I don’t know if you could say that I wouldn’t think he was what his stats pretty much said he was yards / TD top 8-6 qb ...that is pretty elite when you factor intangible s like clutch play
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
That’s how the OP defined Eli.
And anyway, if you define QBs as elite based on production, then you hardly have any ground to stand on when it comes to young QBs. None have had enough time in the league to offer the production that you define as elite. I hope you’re not saying that Justin Herbert is elite…
In my opinion (which note I am not stating as a fact like some), when they do this analysis QB will not be at the top of that list. OL will, LB will, TE will, etc. When you look at this draft there really isn't a top QB, add in it won't be our #1 priority, and I expect all of you to be able to bitch about Jones for quite a bit more next season.
We lots of things, so putting #1 pick draft capital on replacing Jones in this draft likely doesn't happen (its not like the next Elway is out there). God help me if we swap out Jones for Rattler. Plus who wants a rookie QB out there behind this crap of a team anyway.
There's also thw bridge QB option. Replacing Jones does necessarily need to be through the 2022 draft
Also *the
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In comment 15390199 Dukie Dimes said:
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
That’s how the OP defined Eli.
And anyway, if you define QBs as elite based on production, then you hardly have any ground to stand on when it comes to young QBs. None have had enough time in the league to offer the production that you define as elite. I hope you’re not saying that Justin Herbert is elite…
When you look back at the champs, was the QB elite. That's what you are chasing. Probability is telling you, you need one of those guys to have an outsized chance of winning.
You are welcome to decide when you want to define elite, but we mostly know it when we see it happening.
You chase young guys when you don't have an elite QB in the hopes they will elevate your QB to that level. Reid went after Mahomes. That is the right thing to do although we didn't have SB titles and production to judge him by. Maybe Reid would fail in the quest, but he knew what he had wasn't the answer. Likewise, when the Cards chose Murray and dealt Rosen. What is important is not whether they knew they were getting elite, but rather that they were pursuing elite because good, mediocre, bad is not good enough. Same with SF. They don't know Lance is elite. But that's what they want, so serviceable Garoppolo is not enough.
And there is more good news when you find the guy: you have him for 10 or 15 years. The converse, an average QB with an elite roster, is impossible to keep together for an extended run. Great rosters, defenses especially, usually fall apart in a few years.
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In comment 15390215 Producer said:
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In comment 15390199 Dukie Dimes said:
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
That’s how the OP defined Eli.
And anyway, if you define QBs as elite based on production, then you hardly have any ground to stand on when it comes to young QBs. None have had enough time in the league to offer the production that you define as elite. I hope you’re not saying that Justin Herbert is elite…
When you look back at the champs, was the QB elite. That's what you are chasing. Probability is telling you, you need one of those guys to have an outsized chance of winning.
You are welcome to decide when you want to define elite, but we mostly know it when we see it happening.
You chase young guys when you don't have an elite QB in the hopes they will elevate your QB to that level. Reid went after Mahomes. That is the right thing to do although we didn't have SB titles and production to judge him by. Maybe Reid would fail in the quest, but he knew what he had wasn't the answer. Likewise, when the Cards chose Murray and dealt Rosen. What is important is not whether they knew they were getting elite, but rather that they were pursuing elite because good, mediocre, bad is not good enough. Same with SF. They don't know Lance is elite. But that's what they want, so serviceable Garoppolo is not enough.
And there is more good news when you find the guy: you have him for 10 or 15 years. The converse, an average QB with an elite roster, is impossible to keep together for an extended run. Great rosters, defenses especially, usually fall apart in a few years.
So basically, just keep drafting new QBs every 2-3 years until maybe you hit on one, even though you don’t really know if you’ve hit on one because your position is based on some subjective belief that he will or won’t produce in the future. Or perhaps you can go back and claim that you knew the QB who just won you a championship was elite even though he wasn’t putting up big numbers early on. You can conveniently call him elite at that point to match the OP’s narrative. In your system, Eli would be kicked to the curb after three years.
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In comment 15390227 Dukie Dimes said:
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In comment 15390215 Producer said:
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In comment 15390199 Dukie Dimes said:
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
That’s how the OP defined Eli.
And anyway, if you define QBs as elite based on production, then you hardly have any ground to stand on when it comes to young QBs. None have had enough time in the league to offer the production that you define as elite. I hope you’re not saying that Justin Herbert is elite…
When you look back at the champs, was the QB elite. That's what you are chasing. Probability is telling you, you need one of those guys to have an outsized chance of winning.
You are welcome to decide when you want to define elite, but we mostly know it when we see it happening.
You chase young guys when you don't have an elite QB in the hopes they will elevate your QB to that level. Reid went after Mahomes. That is the right thing to do although we didn't have SB titles and production to judge him by. Maybe Reid would fail in the quest, but he knew what he had wasn't the answer. Likewise, when the Cards chose Murray and dealt Rosen. What is important is not whether they knew they were getting elite, but rather that they were pursuing elite because good, mediocre, bad is not good enough. Same with SF. They don't know Lance is elite. But that's what they want, so serviceable Garoppolo is not enough.
And there is more good news when you find the guy: you have him for 10 or 15 years. The converse, an average QB with an elite roster, is impossible to keep together for an extended run. Great rosters, defenses especially, usually fall apart in a few years.
So basically, just keep drafting new QBs every 2-3 years until maybe you hit on one, even though you don’t really know if you’ve hit on one because your position is based on some subjective belief that he will or won’t produce in the future. Or perhaps you can go back and claim that you knew the QB who just won you a championship was elite even though he wasn’t putting up big numbers early on. You can conveniently call him elite at that point to match the OP’s narrative. In your system, Eli would be kicked to the curb after three years.
Until you find one, know you have one in your hand, you draft a QB every two years, imo. I think Gil Brandt said every year or two.
As for Eli, he was a baller. He is a unique QB and I'm not sure there are any others like him in NFL history, maybe Jim Plunkett. But if your QB wins a Super Bowl and puts up top-10- 12 numbers, you don't have to get rid of him - that's what Eli was. I'm not sure why you are interpreting this so rigidly. The probabilities are the probabilities. Do you want to win? And if they replaced Eli in 2010 with someone better, would that be so bad in the end, we could have done well with Tom Brady. Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. That's what we're talking about.
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
No, it is not circular. Elite QBs aren't only defined by SB wins. They are defined by NFL production, as much or more.
The argument risks being circular if you don't define "elite" by production and other characteristics. This is why I urge everyone to do their own count.
To make it as simple as possible: The NFL QB is the most important position in team sports, by far. There is nothing even close. So you should want the best QB you can get.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
Fair enough it is a circular argument. You are really picking knits. I would think you get branded as elite after winning a super bowl or two and a couple of MVPs.
But this is not the hgh school debate team. The point being is you pursue someone who may some day be elite. And there are obvious telltale signs. Some telltale signs are a consensus pick in draft position. Eli and Herbert were pretty much regarded as the top of their draft classes. DJ is still yet to show why he was picked 6th overall.
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
Fair enough it is a circular argument. You are really picking knits. I would think you get branded as elite after winning a super bowl or two and a couple of MVPs.
But this is not the hgh school debate team. The point being is you pursue someone who may some day be elite. And there are obvious telltale signs. Some telltale signs are a consensus pick in draft position. Eli and Herbert were pretty much regarded as the top of their draft classes. DJ is still yet to show why he was picked 6th overall.
That argument completely bases elite status on pedigree from college, high school, birth, etc. Eli certainly didn’t show that he was elite during his first few years. In fact, a strong argument can be made that they were winning in spite of him, not because of him.
Look, the bottom line is that this thread presupposes that this fictional term “elite” carries some magical powers with it and that it is the most important determining factor in QB success. Yet there is no clear definition of what gets a QB to elite status, so we are all left chasing unicorns with regards to the future or using previous performance to identify that trait in a QB. Both approaches are pretty useless to current NFL organizations.
For the record, you want an Elite QB all else being equal for the simple fact that you always want a better football player. Particularly at a position that makes the most difference in games.
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In comment 15390199 Dukie Dimes said:
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Read the whole thread, but Peter from NH is right. The argument in the original post is circular.
You state that only elite QBs win the Super Bowl, yet you define an elite QB as someone who wins the Super Bowl (that’s your reasoning for Eli being elite). It’s completely circular.
Fair enough it is a circular argument. You are really picking knits. I would think you get branded as elite after winning a super bowl or two and a couple of MVPs.
But this is not the hgh school debate team. The point being is you pursue someone who may some day be elite. And there are obvious telltale signs. Some telltale signs are a consensus pick in draft position. Eli and Herbert were pretty much regarded as the top of their draft classes. DJ is still yet to show why he was picked 6th overall.
That argument completely bases elite status on pedigree from college, high school, birth, etc. Eli certainly didn’t show that he was elite during his first few years. In fact, a strong argument can be made that they were winning in spite of him, not because of him.
Look, the bottom line is that this thread presupposes that this fictional term “elite” carries some magical powers with it and that it is the most important determining factor in QB success. Yet there is no clear definition of what gets a QB to elite status, so we are all left chasing unicorns with regards to the future or using previous performance to identify that trait in a QB. Both approaches are pretty useless to current NFL organizations.
You’re floating BS to try and prove that there is some black box to what an elite QB is or if you know if what one is. I only said a college record is part of it. Ryan Leaf was destined to be elite from college so was Peyton...after a few years In the NFL it was becoming obvious who was going to be what.
That's a completely different conversation.
Trend Dilfer, Doug Williams, Flacco, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles were NOT Elite QBs. Not even close.
I don’t see why Markky’s post is controversial at all. He’s obviously correct.
I don’t see why Markky’s post is controversial at all. He’s obviously correct.
people don't like math and new ideas intruding on their sports.
Let's say you were given the chance to wager $1 to win $1M and all you had to do was lay a bet on one of two events happening. The first event, you have less than 1% of chance of winning (actually I think it is closer to .05 but whatever). The second event you have an 8-10% chance of winning.
You would take the 8 to 10% chance to win one million dollars, right? It would be stupid to take the one where your chance to win is well below 1%.
And how often do you take the 8-10%? Every time, right? Otherwise you are being stupid.
This is the exact same situation for the fortunes of your favorite football team. Why wouldn't you want your team to be in the category where we have an 8-10% chance to win a title each season? Don't you want the Giants to do anything possible to be in that category? Rather than noodling around with a below 1% chance to win, in any given season?
That is what these probabilities are all about.
Trend Dilfer, Doug Williams, Flacco, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, and Nick Foles were NOT Elite QBs. Not even close.
I think it’s amazing that Giants fans, good, smart well informed fans like you, consider Eli to be anything but absolutely essential to those Super Bowl wins. Eli wasn’t along for the ride, he was driving the whole bus. Greatest Giant of my lifetime. And he embodies the fact that being a champion isn’t just physical - though he had all the physical tools and more toughness than any other I’ve seen - he had the smarts and the gift to make those around him better. If you’re waiting for Jones to become half as good as Eli, you’ll be waiting forever. And may very well life the rest of your life without ever seeing a Giants quarterback as good as Eli Manning.
Eli had one year you can call elite and we capitalized on it in 2011 and the team still finished 9-7 before the playoffs. People way overhype prospects coming into the NFL. DJ right now is in his third year and had the worst OC in football. Fuck Kitchens is no great shakes or even good shakes (before he was HC he was OC but the QB coach at the time was the one making game plans), but the NFL playbook is huge and the offense looked completely different against the Browns. We moved the ball well with Colt fucking McCoy at QB, but couldn’t cash in the red zone because the players stink. The only issues with promoting Kitchens now is he’’lol only have so much at his disposal and by years end could become predictable.
People just see the QB results and then point to elite status when they go on to win Super Bowls, but right now the only two consistently elite QBs in the NFL have 2 SB wins between them. Brady was elite once upon a time, but he isn’t anymore, but he has the fortune of playing on the most stacked offense in NFL and a top 3 roster. That’s why they won the SB last year. Is Stafford elite? No, but he’s very good and for my money it’s them and everyone else right now.
What I worry is that Judge and Graham are too close and Judges Rolodex isn’t big enough to get a good OC in here nor an ownership willing to shell out biiig money for an established OC. Judge clearly gets a lot of stuff about being a HC, but we can’t have him both be an awful game day guy that also has poor coordinators. That’s a formula for mediocrity even with talented rosters.
Eli had one year you can call elite and we capitalized on it in 2011 and the team still finished 9-7 before the playoffs. People way overhype prospects coming into the NFL. DJ right now is in his third year and had the worst OC in football. Fuck Kitchens is no great shakes or even good shakes (before he was HC he was OC but the QB coach at the time was the one making game plans), but the NFL playbook is huge and the offense looked completely different against the Browns. We moved the ball well with Colt fucking McCoy at QB, but couldn’t cash in the red zone because the players stink. The only issues with promoting Kitchens now is he’’lol only have so much at his disposal and by years end could become predictable.
People just see the QB results and then point to elite status when they go on to win Super Bowls, but right now the only two consistently elite QBs in the NFL have 2 SB wins between them. Brady was elite once upon a time, but he isn’t anymore, but he has the fortune of playing on the most stacked offense in NFL and a top 3 roster. That’s why they won the SB last year. Is Stafford elite? No, but he’s very good and for my money it’s them and everyone else right now.
What I worry is that Judge and Graham are too close and Judges Rolodex isn’t big enough to get a good OC in here nor an ownership willing to shell out biiig money for an established OC. Judge clearly gets a lot of stuff about being a HC, but we can’t have him both be an awful game day guy that also has poor coordinators. That’s a formula for mediocrity even with talented rosters.
We get it already you have a hard on for Garrett. THERe have been mismatches in the past around here big suit trying to change Eli; John elway and Dan Reeves; they still saw some success.
To try and pin this all on Garett and pretend like Daniel jones isn’t still going to be Daniel Jones is total bullshit and shows either some type of stubborn immature thinking or you really want to get 150 dollars worth of jones jersey you bought on eBay... let me guess 2 hi safeties and Garrett doesn’t know this or that. Don’t you think Garrett asks di what plays he likes and whatnot ??? He can’t execute
You can't then say any specific team with a top 8 QB has a specific chance of SB victory. Only that the SB winner should come from this group roughly 80% of the time assuming the base conditions don't change.
Looking at pro-football-reference.com, since 2000 80% of SB winners were top 8 in either % of plays their defense caused a turnover or % of plays the defense allowed a touchdown. So, we can also say that an elite defense does the same thing – we should expect 80% of future SB winners to be elite in one of those defensive areas.
The people saying without elite QB play a SB victory is rare are correct. The people saying that there's more to it / more than 1 way to win are also correct.
You can't then say any specific team with a top 8 QB has a specific chance of SB victory. Only that the SB winner should come from this group roughly 80% of the time assuming the base conditions don't change.
Looking at pro-football-reference.com, since 2000 80% of SB winners were top 8 in either % of plays their defense caused a turnover or % of plays the defense allowed a touchdown. So, we can also say that an elite defense does the same thing – we should expect 80% of future SB winners to be elite in one of those defensive areas.
The people saying without elite QB play a SB victory is rare are correct. The people saying that there's more to it / more than 1 way to win are also correct.
This isn't exactly the same calculus, as the number of teams that are top 8 in EITHER of two defensive categories will be more than 8 (as many as 16, but probably more like 12). So the advantage of being top 8 in one of two defensive categories is not as great as having a top 8 QB. But clearly there is an outsized advantage to having a great defense.
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If you can accept the elite QB definition (working with stats there are always going to be issues like that), then all the OP analysis says is that you want to be in the top 8 / elite QB group. Most analyses only reinforce what we see, and this is the case here.
You can't then say any specific team with a top 8 QB has a specific chance of SB victory. Only that the SB winner should come from this group roughly 80% of the time assuming the base conditions don't change.
Looking at pro-football-reference.com, since 2000 80% of SB winners were top 8 in either % of plays their defense caused a turnover or % of plays the defense allowed a touchdown. So, we can also say that an elite defense does the same thing – we should expect 80% of future SB winners to be elite in one of those defensive areas.
The people saying without elite QB play a SB victory is rare are correct. The people saying that there's more to it / more than 1 way to win are also correct.
This isn't exactly the same calculus, as the number of teams that are top 8 in EITHER of two defensive categories will be more than 8 (as many as 16, but probably more like 12). So the advantage of being top 8 in one of two defensive categories is not as great as having a top 8 QB. But clearly there is an outsized advantage to having a great defense.
If you perform the calculations, if you assume there are on average 12 teams that are top 8 in one of the two defensive categories (I don't know the actual number, but it will be greater than 7 and less than 17) then you are 6.66 more likely to win a SB than a team that is not top 8 in either of the defensive categories. You have a 6.66% chance of winning each year, whereas a team not top 8 has exactly a 1% chance.
If you have a top 8 QB you are 12 times more likely to win a SB than a team that does not have a top 8 QB.
Defense wins championships. This is a QB driven league. Both statements are correct. You shouldn't settle for mediocrity in either.
(BTW, I think Jones has a chance of being a top 8 QB, but I am no scout. I'm just saying if we want to win Superbowls he has to become a great QB. He can't be a JAG).