Was told by someone very close to the situation (not on the Giants side) that if DG is fired or retires, that Ryan Poles who is the Executive Director of Player Personnel for the Chiefs is on their short list. The Bears are also interested.
Obviously, nothing may come to fruition and if it does, it wont be for a while but I heard from someone who is close to the situation.
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In comment 15392715 crick n NC said:
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For someone who loves data, you seem to make up your own data for each event before results come in. Abrams' success or failure would be an unknown until proven otherwise. Yet, I am going to bet the majority of the forum would be acting as if he failed before even getting a chance.
I do love data. And it actually takes a lack of understanding of what really good work with data analysis is to not know that expanding / creating data sets is maybe the most important skill. My career was really catapulted when I figured out my company was doing loan modifications all wrong. They gave 3 modifications to someone with debt to income ratios in a certain range as the only criteria. I figured out by actually talking to borrowers that state foreclosure laws were much more relevant and despite being told it couldn’t be done by the head of servicing read every state law and created a set of rules to understand where files were and how long they should be there to forecast performance based on behavior. You can say anything lacks proof because few things are proven until they happen but that doesn’t make you a smart person for pointing that out. Some relevant data on Abrams:
1) The Giants are the only team to interview him for a GM position
2) They talk about him as adept with the cap yet we are no stranger to large amounts of dead money and more importantly lots of teams bank extra dollars using LTBE’s and NLTBE’s there are actually ways to set up the math so you either achieve on the macro or bank more dollars. The Giants not only have had very poor performance they haven’t had particularly good cap situations either. Regardless there is little to no data on the converse of him being particularly good at the skill he’s been touted for so you’d think it would be quite fair to question him being elevated.
3) We are now in the second GM who worked under Accorsi for the Giants and the returns on those GMs have been diminishing. Small samples shouldn’t be the gospel but completely tossing them aside because you don’t have proof of something isn’t good data analysis either. You have to include any pattern in a sound analysis. If you crack an egg and it’s bad and you throw it out. And then check another one and it’s fine. You shouldn’t just start cracking eggs and throwing them all in together. No, you’d check one at a time because that’s smart.
Now where you went wrong here is that you said you’d be entertained by people having problems with Abrams because we “wouldn’t know” when we absolutely have plenty of data to suggest he is more likely to be bad than someone where we have more evidence they are: a) Sought after outside of this building b) Data that supports their successes c) Better examples of their training yielding success
No one is neutral. But also, not a lot of people go around touting their own neutrality because of that fact. Yet you love to. What you actually enjoy is poking people and I generally meet people where they are and today you get my ire not because we disagree on occasion because you are the jerk who says they’d enjoy watching your fellow fans squirm because their leaders seem to maintain crappy hiring practices.
That is fine. I do not deny that I am a jerk at times. We can go our separate ways.
It doesn't mean he can't be good. But it means something.
If Abrams is a rockstar, keep him as AGM. He's not getting hired elsewhere.
It doesn't mean he can't be good. But it means something.
A good observation for sure.
In comment 15391647 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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The two key people on the field are your HC and QB and both have more proving at this point.
I’ll be focusing a lot on Judge. He can still turn it around but not many HC’s show long term success when they don’t get a team performance improvement year 2. His influence is all over a lot of the decisions made in the draft and FA imv.
I respect your opinion, but I dont think Judge has had as much influence as you say. I have reliable sources that indicate DG and Mara’s minions have too much say. These people want Judge to have MORE control, and despite his poor in game decisions they believe in him.
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That his experience is in contracts and capology, not scouting.
It doesn't mean he can't be good. But it means something.
If Abrams is a rockstar, keep him as AGM. He's not getting hired elsewhere.
This seems more of a logical place of where Abrams may fit.
Find a GM outside the organization that is much more ingrained on the player eval/scouting side of things and shares a good bit of the vision of what Judge would like to do with the team. Would want the new GM to be a very analytical, data-intensive professional though as this mindset has to find its way into every corner & crevice in the building.
Let Judge and the new GM design the plan and find the players. Let Abrams figure out how to construct the contracts and keep it all working under the cap. If Judge and the new GM don't see value in Abrams doing that then move him out.
It doesn't mean he can't be good. But it means something.
I am in no way advocating for Abrams. I definitely prefer the new GM to not have any ties to the Giants organization.
However, if a GM candidate is *very* strong when it comes to contracts and cap management, I don't really care if he has little or no scouting experience. In fact it could be a strength if, and this is a crucial if, he puts aside his emotions about players and simply weighs all the input from his scouting and coaching staffs and then makes the best decision based on that data.
Currently, we are saddled with a scout masquerading as a GM. This has resulted in pretty weak drafts and more misses than hits in free agency. We don't need another GM who has no idea how to build a winning football team but likes to talk about gold jacket guys, hog mollies and falling in full bloom love.
A young guy who is sufficiently in demand that he has the independent stature to tell the Maras to get out of the way could work out fine.
A young guy whose likelihood of being hired appears mostly to follow from his personal connections to the Maras comes across as same old, same old.
He has got his work cut out for him.
Multi-year re-build.
And that assumes he hits it on his first re-build.
He has got his work cut out for him.
Multi-year re-build.
And that assumes he hits it on his first re-build.
Yeah, this franchise is so behind, that any miss has a larger magnitude. They are going to have to have a high hit rate and have some good fortune. Of course the problem is not just roster talent, but they still do not know if they have a coach yet or not.
If this team has Herbert, they could be 3-0.
We all agree Garrett's offense is giving them almost no chance to win. We all agree they have enough talent to compete defensively but Graham is coaching soft (perhaps with a mandate from Judge?). People are chiming in all over the league killing the Giants for it.
For me, the buck stops there. This is a talented roster that could be performing much better if put in a position to win. I would've loved to see Jones running Brian Daboll's offense, lots of "quick hitters" and plenty of running plays for the QB. The play design is evident, and it works. Are we talking about how good Josh Allen is right now if Garrett and Judge are his coaches? This team has plenty of talent not to be a laughingstock. That was the mantra this offseason: take the personnel questions reasonably off the table so you can get a fair evaluation of Jones and Judge. I think they've done that.
They signed a #1 WR. They drafted a gadget player in the 1st round. You can question the logic, but they were supplying another weapon to the offense. They signed a grinder RB in Booker, and drafted another in Brightwell. They've made trades to ensure veteran OLs are in place to at least provide serviceable play (and they have).
This has been a MASSIVE drop of the ball by the coaching staff with the current collection of players. And they are hearing about it from guys around the league.
I share the concern if DG is moved out, they just elevate Abrams or bring in someone else they're comfortable with, but also an executive the rest of the league hasn't shown much interest in.
It's also apparent the coaching in 2021 has not been good. They're getting their lunches eaten by opponents, and the discipline level has dropped. This is a relatively young group of men, coaches and players, all trying to learn how to win in the NFL, how to finish games, etc. They need to learn how to win, and then how to put forth that effort consistently. We're seeing a ton of growing pains in 2021.
Talent on offense is still very underwhelming, at almost every position.
Judge has a poor team to work with on the field and a poor team upstairs in the Front Office looking to him to overcome it. And the truth is that he is learning to be a Head Coach.
Judge may not be the answer but this season has to hit the complete dumpster on the field over 17 games AND in the lockerroom for him to go.
They signed a #1 WR. They drafted a gadget player in the 1st round. You can question the logic, but they were supplying another weapon to the offense. They signed a grinder RB in Booker, and drafted another in Brightwell. They've made trades to ensure veteran OLs are in place to at least provide serviceable play (and they have).
This has been a MASSIVE drop of the ball by the coaching staff with the current collection of players. And they are hearing about it from guys around the league.
It’s only Giants fans that seem to have a massive hard on for DG right now and he still gets killed for taking a RB at 2, but that’s a completely different convo. Around the league the coaches are getting eviscerated. Has DG done a good job? Fuck no, but the roster has enough talent to be a middling team this year. You can’t have playoff aspirations like that when you are literally throwing games away in division and against your weaker opponents. Garrett has shown zero ability to fucking adjust and I disagree with KT being a “gadget” player. Maybe 20 years ago he was, but his type is now a fixture in NFL offenses, he’s just really good at what he does. So what do we do with him? Run a fuckton of timing routes moving back to the QB?
More likely "retire" or "step down," but I agree.
NYG has to become much more honest with their self-scouting. Being loyal to their choices when they're really underperforming consistently is prolonging their willingness and decisions to keep trying to improve talent at key positions, and it's killing them. You cannot keep making draft picks out of desperate need, especially top 6 picks.
Saying the roster is good enough to be a middling team? They basically are somewhere between an irrelevant and middling team after three games. Losing two at the wire and playing okay in spurts but never really well enough in any. This will continue but they will win a few at the wire as well and end up with an irrelevant/middling record.
Saying the roster is good enough to be a middling team? They basically are somewhere between an irrelevant and middling team after three games. Losing two at the wire and playing okay in spurts but never really well enough in any. This will continue but they will win a few at the wire as well and end up with an irrelevant/middling record.
Yeah the talent is good enough to be an 8 or 9 win team. It's probably going to finish with 6 wins now because we threw away two games. The roster certainly isn't good on the top end in certain places (OL and Edge which is importnat), but the coaches are now responsible for two losses and the Broncos game was a blowout because of them. Why sign Adoree if you don't trust him to cover, it was better last week against ATL, but zero excuse not to make Teddy and Taylor beat you over the top. I hate this term, but it's scared to lose shit. Judge wants to play a field position game with a bend don't break defense, and play offense with player personnel that is much better with a go big or go home mindset. Everything about the way they coach is fucked. The dysfunction runs from the FO to the coaching staff right now.
The team cornerstone players, with the exception of Anthony Thomas, have glaring weaknesses to their game.
Barkley has mediocre vision and negatively impacts the offense
Williams, our best player, is coasting
Bradberry may have a fork sticking in his back
Peppers has gone from being a very good to borderline starter
Galloway and Shepard are in and out of the lineup
This team doesn’t have enough high performing players.
Barkley has mediocre vision and negatively impacts the offense
Williams, our best player, is coasting
Bradberry may have a fork sticking in his back
Peppers has gone from being a very good to borderline starter
Galloway and Shepard are in and out of the lineup
This team doesn’t have enough high performing players.
Bradberry isn't done. And Peppers was never consistently good, don't bother even suggesting very good.
The rest seems in line.
No play making edge rusher that opposing teams need to game plan for and an offensive line that after 4 years of the DG regime still has significant issues.
The DL has been negatively impacted by the departures of Tomlinson and Hill. A LB group excluding the injured Martinez which is average at best.
The secondary which is underperforming on all levels.
A 3rd year QB in his prove it year and a generational RB with more dance moves than John Travolta.
A first round TE that needs to move on from this team in the worst way
I’ll stop here.
What a great job Giants front office
If the Giants have done zero homework on potential GM candidates then things are even worse than I thought.
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Lol, there isn't any list of GM candidates at this moment. We are 3 games into the season. Their focus is on what's in front of them as it should. This, if anything, is fan-driven speculation.
If the Giants have done zero homework on potential GM candidates then things are even worse than I thought.
There's no end to the list of potential future GM candidates in front offices around the league, but given his history I'm going to assume Mara is going to wait for an official list to arrive in his mailbox weeks after other franchises have begun their interview process.
It's a combination of roster schematics and gameplan/play call schematics. Almost a comorbidity.
I think the coaches sometimes think themselves into a box based on perceived deficiencies on depth or holes (other teams do it as well, but it's been persistent now across coaching staffs here under the Gettleman era).
Graham has done it repeatedly (got away with it a bit last year, but has been burned in two games so far this year).
Garrett I think is a better playcaller than people give him credit for, but his offense is a bit stale and predictable.
My point is simple: we all know Garrett’s (Judge’s) scheme is killing the offense. We all know Graham’s scheme is killing the D. People who know football, with no affiliation to the Giants, are screaming from the rafters how bad the schemes are.
By no means should these players struggle as much as they do.
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Lol, there isn't any list of GM candidates at this moment. We are 3 games into the season. Their focus is on what's in front of them as it should. This, if anything, is fan-driven speculation.
If the Giants have done zero homework on potential GM candidates then things are even worse than I thought.
You fellas gotta relax, okay? You're being emotional and a little dramatic. There is plenty of time for them to dig into potential GM candidates. And if that time comes I'm sure they'll do their "homework".. However, that time is not now.
Believe me, I understand where you're coming from, but if they're mailing in the season already that's more cause for concern. That defeatist attitude should be nowhere near the building. That would be horrible leadership. Their focus should be on what's currently in front of them and that is what it will take to right the ship.
No play making edge rusher that opposing teams need to game plan for and an offensive line that after 4 years of the DG regime still has significant issues.
The DL has been negatively impacted by the departures of Tomlinson and Hill. A LB group excluding the injured Martinez which is average at best.
The secondary which is underperforming on all levels.
A 3rd year QB in his prove it year and a generational RB with more dance moves than John Travolta.
A first round TE that needs to move on from this team in the worst way
I’ll stop here.
What a great job Giants front office
Rick, fans absolutely overrate the talent on the Giants. This offseason was a perfect example with the heavy free agent activity and spending.
It only took a few injuries this summer and poor play in preseason by the OL to wake everybody up that this may just be more of the same.
You fellas gotta relax, okay? You're being emotional and a little dramatic. There is plenty of time for them to dig into potential GM candidates. And if that time comes I'm sure they'll do their "homework".. However, that time is not now.
Their current GM is 70 years old and has a terrible record during his tenure.
The time is absolutely now. Frankly it should have already started.
5-1 in the division and it will be hard to miss the playoffs.
4-2 more challenging.
I am setting expectations for that but recognize that WFT loss may really haunt them and that game was on coaching and had very little to do with talent imv.
Dave is mostly likely gone and I have no issue with that. He will get blamed everything including the current hamstring issue. He has put assembled enough talent that this team should perform better that it has.
The Knicks haven't won a championship since 1973. And you're going to have to explain how they operate in the same way.
I want Rodgers and Devante Adams along with him. If Rodgers even farts in the NYG direction this offseason I am all over him like stink on shit. And he can bring his soon to be FA buddy with him. You want to win? Do that. Judge can even stay and we'd win 11 games next year. New GM can live happily ever after for a few years if he makes that move. And money can be moved or created.
I think this could be AR's last year in GB. If it is, why not here.
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when they stop acting that way I might agree with you.
The Knicks haven't won a championship since 1973. And you're going to have to explain how they operate in the same way.
Plus the Knicks are on the upswing and as well run as any NBA franchise at this very moment. Apples and Oranges. Giants are the Mets with 2 extra titles. MEts get to the same # of big games, the Giants just happened to win most of theirs (4-5) and 5-5 in NFC title games.
An expectation that team ownership will not be involved in this kind of a decision is just not realistic, even if an outside firm or consultant is brought on to guide the process. Btw, is there a search firm that specializes in NFL GMs?
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As long as Mara is not involved in the decision. I have no idea who the quality GM candidates but knowing nothing is probably better than the dogma logic driving the Giants the past decade. Hire a true outside firm, not like before where you cut Accorsi a pension as an excuse to get together to celebrate the old times, a TRUE outside firm with real credentials and let them drive the decision.
An expectation that team ownership will not be involved in this kind of a decision is just not realistic, even if an outside firm or consultant is brought on to guide the process. Btw, is there a search firm that specializes in NFL GMs?
Yes, they're used with regularity. We hired a boutique firm fronted by Ernie Accorsi for our last search. Search firms and management consultancy are a thing in every industry.
Obviously, there is one decision that Mara would have to make - the decision on who to outsource the real decisions to, I'd just like that decision to be made without cronyism involved. Kind of a tough ask for the Giants.
seriously - how do you know there's no owner that cares more than him? Is it the yearly press conferences where he tells anyone how pissed off he is about all the losing?
To me, that points to bad coaching again.
Of the many challenges to being a good coach in the NFL is motivating the players. Including the ones that just got paid.
The problem is that he's indecisive, pathologically needs to surround himself with people the carry the same principles and values to himself and his ideas on what it takes to win aren't built on anything more than cliche'd platitudes about things that stir up nostalgia from the glory days. He's too busy looking backwards and not forwards in a dramatically changing landscape.
Basically, he's an awful CEO.
The problem is that he's indecisive, pathologically needs to surround himself with people the carry the same principles and values to himself and his ideas on what it takes to win aren't built on anything more than cliche'd platitudes about things that stir up nostalgia from the glory days. He's too busy looking backwards and not forwards in a dramatically changing landscape.
Basically, he's an awful CEO.
I feel like some of what you describe in the second paragraph must have occurred to Mara over the lat few years - whether it was told to him or he thought it up on his own. If he really cared, he'd do the hard work and take a long look in the mirror. As far as we can tell, that hasn't happened yet.
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I think there are professional sports franchise owners whose "interest in winning" can be legitimately questioned. I don't believe John Mara is in this category. In fact, I don't think there is an owner who cares more about winning than Mara. The organization for which he's responsible has been terrible for the past 10 years. For this, he deserves the criticism and, ultimately, the blame. But it is not a function of disinterest.
seriously - how do you know there's no owner that cares more than him? Is it the yearly press conferences where he tells anyone how pissed off he is about all the losing?
No, it is all the trash cans he kicks in the owner's box. Many beats covering the team and former players have commented how the Mara's live and die with this team. The results have sucked but I do not think they are laughing as the money keeps rolling in.