And I am a Daniel Jones guy. I never thought he was capable of being a tippy top elite QB, but I’m a believer that his strengths are more than his weaknesses and he can be a Top 10-12 winning NFL QB.
But this thread is not about arguing rather or not he is the long term solution.
This thread is about the somber realization that to be a Daniel Jones guy, you have to trust that the following people were right:
John Mara
Dave Gettleman
Kevin Abrams
Chris Pettit
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
The most incompetent clown rodeo in the current NFL. Those guys have proven to be wrong. about. everything.
So for Jones to be the guy, I also have to accept that the aforementioned group of losers was right. But they are never right.
I’m feeling triggered
There are lots of things that I bite my tongue at work about b/c I want to keep my job but I don't think that my boss is right about...
Kind of like how the Giants looks for coaches to have BC connections because the Maras are Catholic. It's just bizarre.
The Giants just got finished completing one of their most successful runs in franchise history w/ Eli at the helm.
It looks pretty clear to me that the guys that made the Eli era happen (Ernie A/ the Maras / DG who was a part of the organization at the time) their plan was to "run it back"...
And why not?
It worked once.
The issue is Garrett and Judge by extension right now. This offense is last in YAC in the league, by design, when we have guys like KT, SB, and Engram. Good work coach.
The problem has always been awareness in the pocket and I was of the opinion that this is an instinctive trait you either have or don't have. I thought he would never be a winning QB because of it. But recently he has gotten a bit better and is proving me wrong a little bit so only time will tell.
I think therein lies the problem.
The organization just loves the kid so much because he personifies everything the GIants value as a franchise to the point where there's a voluntary blindspot to the fact that he's just not that good of a thrower of the football.
Couldn't have taken a QB in 2018 because the front office was still loyal to Eli. By 2019 it was way too late to count on Eli. The Giants were in a tough position of needing to take a QB at #6 with not great choices.
If you buy they had to take a QB at #6 (and I do believe that), then Jones was the best pick.
I think he was over drafted based on the cutcliffe coaching. The question is, would you pass on a potential new QB if Jones had been drafted in the 2nd round? Is the fear of moving on more because of the initial investment (6th overall) or because of the ability we have seen?
Outside of Mara, all my have “multiple Super Bowl rings”, but Judge doesn’t have multiple rings as a Head Coach and Gettleman doesn’t have them as a GM. They worked other positions during those seasons. Kind of a meaningless observation as it pertains to our current situation.
This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be? His arm strength has also been discussed by many knowledgable analysts. He may have his issues, but arm strength is not one of them.
You and a few others continue to spout your opinion, and anti-Jones agenda, as factual data (over and over and over).
Jones has been the only bright spot along with Thomas so far this season
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He's just not a consistently dynamic passer as the top 10-12. He never will be as good a passer as Joe Burrow, for instance. Waiting for him to become something he will never be, that's the fools gold.
This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be? His arm strength has also been discussed by many knowledgable analysts. He may have his issues, but arm strength is not one of them.
You and a few others continue to spout your opinion, and anti-Jones agenda, as factual data (over and over and over).
Jones has been the only bright spot along with Thomas so far this season
I agree with you Patterson, the anti-Jones crowd are insufferable. I also agree with you that Jones and Thomas have been bright spots, but I would also add Azeez Ojulari as one as well.
Would love for my kids to be able to watch (Aaron) Judge and Daniel Jones for years to come.
Couldn't have taken a QB in 2018 because the front office was still loyal to Eli. By 2019 it was way too late to count on Eli. The Giants were in a tough position of needing to take a QB at #6 with not great choices.
If you buy they had to take a QB at #6 (and I do believe that), then Jones was the best pick.
They didn't need a QB in the 2019 draft. They'd just decided to pay Eli $23 million for that season.
And even if you believe they "needed" a QB, you don't overdraft one just because of that need.
I believe Dave Gettleman when he said he fell in love with Daniel Jones. I believe everyone in the Giants front office loved him because he looks like a prototypical QB in their eyes. They wanted him to sit behind Eli for a year, then take the reins in 2020.
Speaking of which, I haven't seen it mentioned, but how much of the success Jones had as a rookie (limited as it was) can be attributed to having Eli there in the QB room and on the sideline?
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In comment 15393095 Producer said:
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He's just not a consistently dynamic passer as the top 10-12. He never will be as good a passer as Joe Burrow, for instance. Waiting for him to become something he will never be, that's the fools gold.
This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be? His arm strength has also been discussed by many knowledgable analysts. He may have his issues, but arm strength is not one of them.
You and a few others continue to spout your opinion, and anti-Jones agenda, as factual data (over and over and over).
Jones has been the only bright spot along with Thomas so far this season
I agree with you Patterson, the anti-Jones crowd are insufferable. I also agree with you that Jones and Thomas have been bright spots, but I would also add Azeez Ojulari as one as well.
I feel as far as debates go these days, both sides of any argument have lost complete respect for one another. I enjoy debate on this site, but it gets too personal with some of the insults. I’m not a “Jones guy” myself, but I root for him because he is a Giant. And if he were to turn into a top QB it would be better for the Giants rebuild. But, sadly some fans ardently root against him to succeed, and on the flip side, some fans can see no fault in him regardless if he is inconsistent and mediocre.
This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be?
Because he throws comparatively few of them, and only when it's an absolutely perfect scenario for one. Every QB in the NFL can make the deep throws he makes.
And aren't opinions what we're all doing here?
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He's just not a consistently dynamic passer as the top 10-12. He never will be as good a passer as Joe Burrow, for instance. Waiting for him to become something he will never be, that's the fools gold.
This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be? His arm strength has also been discussed by many knowledgable analysts. He may have his issues, but arm strength is not one of them.
You and a few others continue to spout your opinion, and anti-Jones agenda, as factual data (over and over and over).
Jones has been the only bright spot along with Thomas so far this season
He wasn't rated one of the best deep ball guys. He had a single data point, based on a very limited sample size, that he was accurate on deep balls. That doesn't make him one of the best *deep ball guys*. And if you accept that data point, you have to accept the other one that goes with that stat, from the same data set, that he is among the worst QBs at short to intermediate accuracy, which if true, is totally damning, because you can't be the 30th ranked short/intermediate passer and be a winner in the NFL.
And there are a lot of QBs who throw better than Jones. They don't just throw looping bombs once a game. They make tough throws outside the hashes and tight window throws all over the field that Jones won't even attempt. If you watched last night's game and came away with any other conclusion than Joe Burrow is in a completely different class as a passer, I would say you don't know what you're looking at.
IMO. The Giants needed Josh Allen more than Daniel Jones at that point and the chance that he was still going to be there at 17 was worth the risk, but I am just a fan.
That being said. He is the QB and I certainly don't root for him to fail. Just like I hoped that Scott Brunner, Dave Brown or Danny Kanell could somehow get the job done. However I do expect Jones to play to the level of a 6th overall pick. Which he has not up to now. Yes there are potential reasons and some are valid and some are bullshit but he is the 6th overall pick and that says that he should be able to overcome most of the issues and at very least prove why he was worthy of that pick.
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This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be?
Because he throws comparatively few of them, and only when it's an absolutely perfect scenario for one. Every QB in the NFL can make the deep throws he makes.
And aren't opinions what we're all doing here?
Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Again, Daniel Jones is not elite, but the way some of you guys talk about him really just undermines your credibility.
I have news for you, there are many way to win a Super Bowl, the easiest way is with an elite QB, but they don't appear often. You can win with a good, but not great QB if you build around him well. See the Eagles in 2017, the Giants with Eli (he was not Elite-he was excellent but not elite), Joe Flacco. And look at all the QBs who faced Brady in the Super Bowl and got there, Ryan, Delhomme, Goff etc etc. You can win with a good QB in the league. Jimmy Garropolo was a quarter and a half away from winning it.
Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Yes, every QB can make a 30 yard sideline throw to a WR with a step on the only defender near him. The reason we remember Jones's deep throws is because there are so few of them.
I'm not even saying it wasn't a good throw. But it's a throw any NFL QB should make. It's not a feather in DJ's cap to be able to make that one.
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In comment 15393112 PatersonPlank said:
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This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be?
Because he throws comparatively few of them, and only when it's an absolutely perfect scenario for one. Every QB in the NFL can make the deep throws he makes.
And aren't opinions what we're all doing here?
Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Again, Daniel Jones is not elite, but the way some of you guys talk about him really just undermines your credibility.
I have news for you, there are many way to win a Super Bowl, the easiest way is with an elite QB, but they don't appear often. You can win with a good, but not great QB if you build around him well. See the Eagles in 2017, the Giants with Eli (he was not Elite-he was excellent but not elite), Joe Flacco. And look at all the QBs who faced Brady in the Super Bowl and got there, Ryan, Delhomme, Goff etc etc. You can win with a good QB in the league. Jimmy Garropolo was a quarter and a half away from winning it.
Essex... if I may talk DJ with you without hostility... you are correct in that you can win with mediocre QBs. But, that means other components of the team must be that much stronger- defense, run game, etc. And the windows for those teams to win are extremely small. Having a top tier QB also means the other components of the team can change and be fungible, and the team’s window doesn’t necessarily close. Not only this, but in the case of Jones, having a great, young QB on a rookie contract allows so much team-building flexibility. Now his rookie contract is nearly up, and our roster still sucks. We have wasted the advantage of the rookie contract on a QB who must have other components of the team around him to be great in order to win. This is where the DJ frustration comes in.
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Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Yes, every QB can make a 30 yard sideline throw to a WR with a step on the only defender near him. The reason we remember Jones's deep throws is because there are so few of them.
I'm not even saying it wasn't a good throw. But it's a throw any NFL QB should make. It's not a feather in DJ's cap to be able to make that one.
Exactly, Joe Burrow made several better throws last night. It makes me wonder, do the rest of you guys watch the rest of the NFL, or do you watch only Giants games?
It's ok if you only watch Giants games, it's time consuming. But other QBs are lapping Jones, who had to have the game plan reduced to learn how to *get the ball out* in season 2.
I think this explains the preponderance of posts here of people saying, *Hey I watched another game and our offense doesn't look like that*. Yea, when you watch other NFL games, you see how great and good QBs play. It's a revelation.
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In comment 15393126 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15393112 PatersonPlank said:
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This is your opinion, once again stated as a fact.
I disagree, my opinion is his arm is plenty strong. He was rated one of the top deep ball guys, how can that be?
Because he throws comparatively few of them, and only when it's an absolutely perfect scenario for one. Every QB in the NFL can make the deep throws he makes.
And aren't opinions what we're all doing here?
Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Again, Daniel Jones is not elite, but the way some of you guys talk about him really just undermines your credibility.
I have news for you, there are many way to win a Super Bowl, the easiest way is with an elite QB, but they don't appear often. You can win with a good, but not great QB if you build around him well. See the Eagles in 2017, the Giants with Eli (he was not Elite-he was excellent but not elite), Joe Flacco. And look at all the QBs who faced Brady in the Super Bowl and got there, Ryan, Delhomme, Goff etc etc. You can win with a good QB in the league. Jimmy Garropolo was a quarter and a half away from winning it.
Essex... if I may talk DJ with you without hostility... you are correct in that you can win with mediocre QBs. But, that means other components of the team must be that much stronger- defense, run game, etc. And the windows for those teams to win are extremely small. Having a top tier QB also means the other components of the team can change and be fungible, and the team’s window doesn’t necessarily close. Not only this, but in the case of Jones, having a great, young QB on a rookie contract allows so much team-building flexibility. Now his rookie contract is nearly up, and our roster still sucks. We have wasted the advantage of the rookie contract on a QB who must have other components of the team around him to be great in order to win. This is where the DJ frustration comes in.
So well stated. Especially the idea that if you have a subpar QB you need all other systems to be near elite. Like a complex parlay bet, you are betting on long odds it all goes right, and the window of opportunity is extremely small.
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In comment 15393150 Essex said:
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Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Yes, every QB can make a 30 yard sideline throw to a WR with a step on the only defender near him. The reason we remember Jones's deep throws is because there are so few of them.
I'm not even saying it wasn't a good throw. But it's a throw any NFL QB should make. It's not a feather in DJ's cap to be able to make that one.
Exactly, Joe Burrow made several better throws last night. It makes me wonder, do the rest of you guys watch the rest of the NFL, or do you watch only Giants games?
It's ok if you only watch Giants games, it's time consuming. But other QBs are lapping Jones, who had to have the game plan reduced to learn how to *get the ball out* in season 2.
I think this explains the preponderance of posts here of people saying, *Hey I watched another game and our offense doesn't look like that*. Yea, when you watch other NFL games, you see how great and good QBs play. It's a revelation.
Be real if you are going to talk about other gaemes. Yeah, I watch a lot of football games. I watched the game last night. Did you see how Cincy set up the blocks for downfield screens and short passes. How they schemed open guys. On the last series, remember the pass to C.J. Uzomah.
We had the same play (I think on our last drive) and Barkley outran his blockers. I don't ever like to get personal, but when you pull the do you guys watch other games, it would help if you could properly analyze what you were watching. So much of what Burrow was doing was being schemed really well. Is Daniel Jones better than Joe Burrow? Probably not. But come on, if you can't see what Cincy was doing last night, please do not come on here and try to pull the you guys don't watch football routine.
Rather than wait a year with no guarantees of the ability to get him or maneuver in another draft, they took Jones.
I don't think Jones is a bad QB, he has some unique running ability. But his pocket presence is kinda poor, he's not a guy who has good feel and lateral agility in the pocket.
He's a burst runner, can really do damage in the RPO. But if he suffers some kind of leg injury or loses speed, how would that affect him?
He's improved as a pocket passer for sure, but still has trouble reading defenses in the red zone and seems to rely too heavily on getting man coverage matchups and his receiver to get separation. Maybe it's just me, but I don't buy Jones as a long-term franchise QB.
The issue you run into is much like with coaches. Unless the performance is so poor, moving on is not a viable solution unless you have a really desirable alternative.
Drafting another QB is a huge risk. It also involves possible struggles in a 1-2 year period to fit the offense and players all over again.
Not really. And, in the rare circumstances that they do, Jones probably misses them because he has three guys in his face with the worst offensive line in football in front of him.
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Jones just misses them or doesn't see them.
Not really. And, in the rare circumstances that they do, Jones probably misses them because he has three guys in his face with the worst offensive line in football in front of him.
The excuses never end, huh?
That I hold/indict the coaching staff for.
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In comment 15393184 Go Terps said:
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Jones just misses them or doesn't see them.
Not really. And, in the rare circumstances that they do, Jones probably misses them because he has three guys in his face with the worst offensive line in football in front of him.
The excuses never end, huh?
What excuse am I making that Daniel Jones is a good, but not great QB. I think he could a top third QB in the league (top 11), not a top 5 with better support. Again, I am not saying Jones is better than Justin Herbert, but if Jones had nearly the support Herbert had for like one game in his career, I would love to see how Jones played. He hasn't, so we will never know, I guess.
Everyone is to blame.
It's going to take some super-human efforts by some individuals to break the vicious cycle of losing.
If DJ isn't one of those guys - the NYG will continue to lose until DJ becomes one - or they go in a different direction.
other QBs have WRs drop balls - as egregiously as Engram
other QBs get O-line penalties on big plays
other QBs have coaching woes
other QBs have players making bone headed plays
It all comes out in the wash, and the good QBs persevere.
it's going on three years of excuses. Either everybody else is a screw up and Daniel Jones is the unluckiest fucker in the world... or he's a bad quarterback. Occam's Razor tells you it is the latter.
other QBs have WRs drop balls - as egregiously as Engram
other QBs get O-line penalties on big plays
other QBs have coaching woes
other QBs have players making bone headed plays
It all comes out in the wash, and the good QBs persevere.
it's going on three years of excuses. Either everybody else is a screw up and Daniel Jones is the unluckiest fucker in the world... or he's a bad quarterback. Occam's Razor tells you it is the latter.
But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
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other QBs get pressure
other QBs have WRs drop balls - as egregiously as Engram
other QBs get O-line penalties on big plays
other QBs have coaching woes
other QBs have players making bone headed plays
It all comes out in the wash, and the good QBs persevere.
it's going on three years of excuses. Either everybody else is a screw up and Daniel Jones is the unluckiest fucker in the world... or he's a bad quarterback. Occam's Razor tells you it is the latter.
But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
fair enough.. let's reconsider the point in a few weeks.
It always seems like the "Giants Way" gets inserted into way too many decisions.
Would love for my kids to be able to watch (Aaron) Judge and Daniel Jones for years to come.
Then you must despise LT.
Still waiting on that one pick though...
Now even a blind nut finds a squirrel one in awhile, but I lean towards not trusting any pick DG has made.
It always seems like the "Giants Way" gets inserted into way too many decisions.
They were looking for the Manning-est QB.
It's not just that he fell in full bloom love, but how -- if you take him at his word, it was from watching a few Senior Bowl series!
agaisnt Washington he was sacked once in the 2nd half.
I mean it would be great if he wasnt sacked at all, but I mean QBs are sacked a lot more than him.
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Jones just misses them or doesn't see them.
Not really. And, in the rare circumstances that they do, Jones probably misses them because he has three guys in his face with the worst offensive line in football in front of him.
If you think that's true, then you really need to watch the Kurt Warner tape. Guys absolutely are getting open, but Jones is not throwing to them.
But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
Fine. You can have the QBR "win" right now. But we still aren't scoring enough points. Only 18.7PPG. And this is where Jones is failing as the QB. It is EVERY QB's responsibility to lead the team to points.
By comparison, since your brought it up, the Chargers are averaging 23 and the Bills are averaging 31.
And in any honest moment, I have little doubt you would take Herbert and Allen over Jones any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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it was needing a QB in the 2019 draft. After Murray was taken, the Giants had a choice between Jones, Haskins, Lock, Minshew, Grier, Finley, etc.
Couldn't have taken a QB in 2018 because the front office was still loyal to Eli. By 2019 it was way too late to count on Eli. The Giants were in a tough position of needing to take a QB at #6 with not great choices.
If you buy they had to take a QB at #6 (and I do believe that), then Jones was the best pick.
They didn't need a QB in the 2019 draft. They'd just decided to pay Eli $23 million for that season.
And even if you believe they "needed" a QB, you don't overdraft one just because of that need.
I believe Dave Gettleman when he said he fell in love with Daniel Jones. I believe everyone in the Giants front office loved him because he looks like a prototypical QB in their eyes. They wanted him to sit behind Eli for a year, then take the reins in 2020.
Speaking of which, I haven't seen it mentioned, but how much of the success Jones had as a rookie (limited as it was) can be attributed to having Eli there in the QB room and on the sideline?
Much has been said lately about how taking a running back with the #2 pick in 2018 was a strategic error, but as great an error was our GM and front office and ownership not recognising that this was a team on the decline that needed a rebuild. They believed that they were just an elite running back away from being a contender, whilst most fans at the time could see the holes appearing. Gettleman will have run the rub over the squad when he took over, and let's face it, his assessment was wrong.
If they had started from 2018 with a quarterback, and it hadn't been Josh Rosen, they'd be in a different place right now. But Gettleman declared none of the available were sexy enough for him.
Please get Gettleman out of the building.
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But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
Fine. You can have the QBR "win" right now. But we still aren't scoring enough points. Only 18.7PPG. And this is where Jones is failing as the QB. It is EVERY QB's responsibility to lead the team to points.
By comparison, since your brought it up, the Chargers are averaging 23 and the Bills are averaging 31.
And in any honest moment, I have little doubt you would take Herbert and Allen over Jones any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I said above that I would probably rather have Herbert and I know I definitely would rather have Allen.
agaisnt Washington he was sacked once in the 2nd half.
I mean it would be great if he wasnt sacked at all, but I mean QBs are sacked a lot more than him.
Justin Fields
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He was sacked twice last week, once until the last drive. Week 1 he had the 2nd most time to throw and was only sacked twice.
agaisnt Washington he was sacked once in the 2nd half.
I mean it would be great if he wasnt sacked at all, but I mean QBs are sacked a lot more than him.
Justin Fields
Aww the GIF didn't work...was supposed to be Nine Times from Ferris Buellers Day Off
Likewise, it is also perfectly possible that the front office is a clown show who has mismanaged its resources and failed to build any sort of continuity in the long term and decent gameplans in the short term. The most frustrating part of this situation is that the only constant about the Giants has been the Maras, and we've seen this story play out not only in New York, but around the league. We need a completely independent GM and a STRONG head coach. As much as everyone hated Accorsi and Reese, I bet most would trade Gettleman for one of them in a minute. Ditto Kevin Gilbride for Jason Garrett.
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Really, every QB can drop that pass to CJ Board last week. Ok, but that is news to me.
Yes, every QB can make a 30 yard sideline throw to a WR with a step on the only defender near him. The reason we remember Jones's deep throws is because there are so few of them.
I'm not even saying it wasn't a good throw. But it's a throw any NFL QB should make. It's not a feather in DJ's cap to be able to make that one.
Your comments are idiotic at best. Blanket statements of any QB can and Jones only does it once a game show a clear lack of understanding when it comes to presenting a factual argument. You are throwing the I don't like him and what he does EVERYBODY else can do.. Sounds pretty stupid.
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In comment 15393217 Essex said:
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But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
Fine. You can have the QBR "win" right now. But we still aren't scoring enough points. Only 18.7PPG. And this is where Jones is failing as the QB. It is EVERY QB's responsibility to lead the team to points.
By comparison, since your brought it up, the Chargers are averaging 23 and the Bills are averaging 31.
And in any honest moment, I have little doubt you would take Herbert and Allen over Jones any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I said above that I would probably rather have Herbert and I know I definitely would rather have Allen.
probably Herbert?
Would you have traded Eli for Roethlisberger?
I don't see Herbert as a QB with limited mobility. And he has a plus plus arm on a par with Allen, Rodgers and Mahomes. Put him on the Giants right now and we are a much better team.
And if we had Herbert this board would be going ape shit over his arm talent.
A guy that states as fact that CJ Beathard and Mitch Trubisky are better than Daniel Jones doesn't know a damn thing about football and really should stop polluting every thread about the QB for the team he supposedly roots for with his air tight facts.
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if you shipped our entire offense to the Chargers, including Jones.
Would you have traded Eli for Roethlisberger?
No.
Your comments are idiotic at best. Blanket statements of any QB can and Jones only does it once a game show a clear lack of understanding when it comes to presenting a factual argument. You are throwing the I don't like him and what he does EVERYBODY else can do.. Sounds pretty stupid.
I'm sure it makes you feel better to call my comments idiotic and call me stupid, but perhaps your time would be better spent watching other, better QBs play the game, rather than insist that a 30-yard sideline route in single coverage is a unique throw.
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Your comments are idiotic at best. Blanket statements of any QB can and Jones only does it once a game show a clear lack of understanding when it comes to presenting a factual argument. You are throwing the I don't like him and what he does EVERYBODY else can do.. Sounds pretty stupid.
I'm sure it makes you feel better to call my comments idiotic and call me stupid, but perhaps your time would be better spent watching other, better QBs play the game, rather than insist that a 30-yard sideline route in single coverage is a unique throw.
Taken from Sy's review of the Falcons game. "He had one of the top throws of the day across the entire league in the first quarter on a 3rd-and-4 go route to C.J. Board."
I agree, I don't think he's a limited thrower at all. He just struggles with accuracy on shorter routes. I think he tries to rush things to get the ball out on time, so he tends to stare down his WR's on shorter patterns.
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In comment 15393279 jvm52106 said:
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Your comments are idiotic at best. Blanket statements of any QB can and Jones only does it once a game show a clear lack of understanding when it comes to presenting a factual argument. You are throwing the I don't like him and what he does EVERYBODY else can do.. Sounds pretty stupid.
I'm sure it makes you feel better to call my comments idiotic and call me stupid, but perhaps your time would be better spent watching other, better QBs play the game, rather than insist that a 30-yard sideline route in single coverage is a unique throw.
Taken from Sy's review of the Falcons game. "He had one of the top throws of the day across the entire league in the first quarter on a 3rd-and-4 go route to C.J. Board."
For clarity, let me again state that at no point did I say it wasn't a good throw. It was. "One of the best" does not mean that it was something few other QBs can do.
My points were:
1) Relatively speaking compared, Jones throws few deep passes
2) It's not a throw I wouldn't expect other NFL QBs to also make
And while we're on the subject, the 3rd-and-3 pass that preceded the punt from ATL's 39 was crap. Collin Johnson was there, and Jones threw it out of bounds.
Limited mobility? He ran a 4.68, he's plenty mobile. In fact, I think he moves in the pocket better than Jones.
That's why he is really poor in the red zone, and that is lethal for an offense.
How do you know Herbert is in a "great system"? This is basically Joe Lomardi's first year as an OC. So after three games you know it's great? Hmmmmm.
Last year, his rookie campaign, Herbert played for OC Shane Steichen, who is now the OC for the Eagles.
Daniel Jones is a backup or perhaps a low level starter, a'la maybe Gardner Minshew. Neither in college or so far in the Pros has he demonstrated any ability to lift a team or impose his will on the game and WIN, which is the very definition of a franchise QB. You take someone at #6 who's never won previously and expect different results in the higher level pros, you're probably gonna be wrong.
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System for him. Wanted him 1 and Jones 2nd in that draft. Kid stayed in college to play with his brother. If you put him on this team I think he would be hated by everyone in this board. Highly accurate high IQ QB with limited mobility. He would have been shell shocked in the system the Giants run last year. Kurt Warner not picked some throws that could have been slightly better. But WRs have to make plays, Jones isn’t throwing to Isaac Bruce and holt and having Marshall Faulk take a dump off into a 50 yard TD. Even last night referring to Burrow put passes behind the TE and WRs on several occasions. They made the play. He didn’t throw a ball in the end zone for a td, twice his skill players caught the ball and broke tackles and made moves to get in the end zone.
How do you know Herbert is in a "great system"? This is basically Joe Lomardi's first year as an OC. So after three games you know it's great? Hmmmmm.
Last year, his rookie campaign, Herbert played for OC Shane Steichen, who is now the OC for the Eagles.
What's amazing is that Herbert is even able to function with his 2nd OC in 2 years. I didn't think that was possible.
I have posted on the main board a video analysis to clear things up.
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In comment 15393294 Giants73 said:
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System for him. Wanted him 1 and Jones 2nd in that draft. Kid stayed in college to play with his brother. If you put him on this team I think he would be hated by everyone in this board. Highly accurate high IQ QB with limited mobility. He would have been shell shocked in the system the Giants run last year. Kurt Warner not picked some throws that could have been slightly better. But WRs have to make plays, Jones isn’t throwing to Isaac Bruce and holt and having Marshall Faulk take a dump off into a 50 yard TD. Even last night referring to Burrow put passes behind the TE and WRs on several occasions. They made the play. He didn’t throw a ball in the end zone for a td, twice his skill players caught the ball and broke tackles and made moves to get in the end zone.
How do you know Herbert is in a "great system"? This is basically Joe Lomardi's first year as an OC. So after three games you know it's great? Hmmmmm.
Last year, his rookie campaign, Herbert played for OC Shane Steichen, who is now the OC for the Eagles.
What's amazing is that Herbert is even able to function with his 2nd OC in 2 years. I didn't think that was possible.
c'mon man. No one said that. It is not some myth that young quarterbacks struggle frequently picking up NFL offenses. I can't imagine you are going to find anyone on a coaching staff that is indifferent to their young QB switching offenses frequently while they are still developing.
How do you know Herbert is in a "great system"? This is basically Joe Lomardi's first year as an OC. So after three games you know it's great? Hmmmmm.
Last year, his rookie campaign, Herbert played for OC Shane Steichen, who is now the OC for the Eagles.
What's amazing is that Herbert is even able to function with his 2nd OC in 2 years. I didn't think that was possible.
I was waiting to throw that in. ;)
Plus, new OC, new rookie LT, new C, new HC...and on and on. But Herbert keeps rolling along...
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How do you know Herbert is in a "great system"? This is basically Joe Lomardi's first year as an OC. So after three games you know it's great? Hmmmmm.
Last year, his rookie campaign, Herbert played for OC Shane Steichen, who is now the OC for the Eagles.
What's amazing is that Herbert is even able to function with his 2nd OC in 2 years. I didn't think that was possible.
I was waiting to throw that in. ;)
Plus, new OC, new rookie LT, new C, new HC...and on and on. But Herbert keeps rolling along...
it's not possible to judge him yet, we're gonna need three more seasons.
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
That's why he is really poor in the red zone, and that is lethal for an offense.
The red zone issues couldn't have anything to do with poor play calling, very poor OL play, the inability to establish a consistent run game and receivers who get no separation? You know the things that Gettelman gets roasted for as nauseum in every thread on this site, even the NFT ones about restaurants in Portland.
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
and Golladay is as studly as anybody on the Bengals. Jones hasn't figured out how to throw to him.
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Everything outside the numbers between 5-20 yards is late and slow. He's slow to see it, he's slow to trust it, his windup is slow, and he doesn't have the huge arm to compensate for those shortcomings.
That's why he is really poor in the red zone, and that is lethal for an offense.
The red zone issues couldn't have anything to do with poor play calling, very poor OL play, the inability to establish a consistent run game and receivers who get no separation? You know the things that Gettelman gets roasted for as nauseum in every thread on this site, even the NFT ones about restaurants in Portland.
The offensive line has nothing to do with the Red Zone failures, lol. Getting a good push does nothing in a limited area for your receivers to find openings.
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
Last year he had none of those guys and this year many have felt he has played well even though all three of the guys you mentioned are having their issues (Rudolph)
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In comment 15393335 Go Terps said:
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Everything outside the numbers between 5-20 yards is late and slow. He's slow to see it, he's slow to trust it, his windup is slow, and he doesn't have the huge arm to compensate for those shortcomings.
That's why he is really poor in the red zone, and that is lethal for an offense.
The red zone issues couldn't have anything to do with poor play calling, very poor OL play, the inability to establish a consistent run game and receivers who get no separation? You know the things that Gettelman gets roasted for as nauseum in every thread on this site, even the NFT ones about restaurants in Portland.
The offensive line has nothing to do with the Red Zone failures, lol. Getting a good push does nothing in a limited area for your receivers to find openings.
So if their is a jail break on every passing down that has nothing to do with Red Zone Failures? Really? Really?
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In comment 15393367 Carl in CT said:
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
and Golladay is as studly as anybody on the Bengals. Jones hasn't figured out how to throw to him.
It's 3 games Golladay missed all of training camp and was limited in practice all last week. Why not give them a few games.
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In comment 15393373 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15393367 Carl in CT said:
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
and Golladay is as studly as anybody on the Bengals. Jones hasn't figured out how to throw to him.
It's 3 games Golladay missed all of training camp and was limited in practice all last week. Why not give them a few games.
I am agreeing with you.
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In comment 15393398 Producer said:
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In comment 15393373 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15393367 Carl in CT said:
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
and Golladay is as studly as anybody on the Bengals. Jones hasn't figured out how to throw to him.
It's 3 games Golladay missed all of training camp and was limited in practice all last week. Why not give them a few games.
I am agreeing with you.
I didn't catch the lOl. My bad Essex.
Then believe this,
they need to score far more points on offense. Just not turning it over won't get it done. In fact, most would put up with more turnovers within reason if it came with far more production out of the QB/Offense.
If every single game comes down to a one score/2 minute warning game, our guys are going to lose a lot of them.
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Falling in full bloom love with a mediocre talent is a damning indictment on his talent evaluating skills.
It's not just that he fell in full bloom love, but how -- if you take him at his word, it was from watching a few Senior Bowl series!
Word. And especially because most people feel that the Senior Bowl practices are way more important than the game itself. And Jones reportedly did not look good in the practices.
2019 Senior Bowl: Quarterbacks - ( New Window )
True, but it does point out at least a bit that the issues with the offense are coming from areas other than the QB
How are you arriving at 12 points for the Washington game?
I totally agree, but QBR is allegedly the statistic that supposedly takes everything into account. And, under that metric, Jones is higher than Burrow and Herbert by a comfortable margin.
I look at last year's rankings and they seem roughly right.
I don't think Cousins and Bridgewater are top five QBs this year. Darnold and Winston top ten is a bit silly. So I don't put much weight on it.
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It is dishonest at besr to measure this offense by passing yards per game
I totally agree, but QBR is allegedly the statistic that supposedly takes everything into account. And, under that metric, Jones is higher than Burrow and Herbert by a comfortable margin.
Use your eyes and watch them all play. In the red zone, or in a 2-minute warning or who takes advantage of a blitzing exposed defense. QBR doesn't take everything into account in how the game is played.
That's where the comfortable margin flips to the other guys.
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It is dishonest at besr to measure this offense by passing yards per game
How are you arriving at 12 points for the Washington game?
12 by the offense, another 17 in field goals.
I look at last year's rankings and they seem roughly right.
I don't think Cousins and Bridgewater are top five QBs this year. Darnold and Winston top ten is a bit silly. So I don't put much weight on it.
I don't think you are wrong and Herbert had a better QBR than Jones last year by a good margin. But, the premise of the anti-Jones crowd is that it is year three and he is stinking up the joint and in year three he has roughly the QBR number that Herbert had last year and the year before. Also, Jones's QBR through three years is not horrible. It is certainly far from elite, but give him a better situation and you might have something is the point. Would I bank on that, meaning if I gave him a good OL and good coaching would he get a lot higher? That is the question and I am not sure I have an answer. My issue comes down to the People who answer it definitively in the negative and I am not sure the evidence is quite as clear as they make out.
What I think the evidence is quite clear about after 3 years and 3 games, DG is not the answer at GM.
I do think there's room on the Jones discussion and I'm fairly negative on Jones - he's going to get this full year. He's obviously not going to throw no interceptions this year, for example. The book isn't definitive, but the sharks are circling IMV. If Jones finishes with 11 passing TDs again this year I'm going to think he's a bigger problem.
I'd add the caveat that I think Jones will probably start in 2022 regardless given what others have said about the draft.
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In comment 15393429 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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It is dishonest at besr to measure this offense by passing yards per game
How are you arriving at 12 points for the Washington game?
12 by the offense, another 17 in field goals.
Actually 15 in field goals, unless you’re counting the offense as not having a hand in XPs either.
Obviously, the desired result is a TD, but what you’re saying is the offense has no hand in creating FG opportunities? By your logic if an offense drives down the field in the final minute of the half or the game - like WFT did - the offense doesn’t get credit for that FG?
I think that this offense too often settles into FGs (especially on the final drive vs. Washington) which is not ideal, however it’s a bit dishonest to not credit the offense for 29 points in that game, but rather only for 12.
If we’re going to be looking at it this way then points scored for all teams needs to be reevaluated and drilled into deeper to only count TDs and not FGs, like you’ve done above for the Giants.
I’m as unhappy as the next guy about this team’s performance but let’s be fair in our criticism. Even with the 29 vs. WFT there is enough to criticize the team, Jones, and the offense on without diminishing what they actually put on the board.
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
You know what happened. They have barely played or are were hurt. Garrett got run out of Dallas because he was behind the times with offense.
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In comment 15393453 10thAve said:
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In comment 15393429 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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It is dishonest at besr to measure this offense by passing yards per game
How are you arriving at 12 points for the Washington game?
12 by the offense, another 17 in field goals.
Actually 15 in field goals, unless you’re counting the offense as not having a hand in XPs either.
Obviously, the desired result is a TD, but what you’re saying is the offense has no hand in creating FG opportunities? By your logic if an offense drives down the field in the final minute of the half or the game - like WFT did - the offense doesn’t get credit for that FG?
I think that this offense too often settles into FGs (especially on the final drive vs. Washington) which is not ideal, however it’s a bit dishonest to not credit the offense for 29 points in that game, but rather only for 12.
If we’re going to be looking at it this way then points scored for all teams needs to be reevaluated and drilled into deeper to only count TDs and not FGs, like you’ve done above for the Giants.
I’m as unhappy as the next guy about this team’s performance but let’s be fair in our criticism. Even with the 29 vs. WFT there is enough to criticize the team, Jones, and the offense on without diminishing what they actually put on the board.
I would like to believe that it's generally a held belief that touchdowns are always the goal. You take a field goal as a consolation price. If an offense is only good at creating field goals, it's not a good offense, and what credit there is to give is a pyrrhic victory.
The reality is it's easy to get in FG range in the NFL. It's easy to move from 20 to 20. The real measure of an offense is can you score touchdowns, and can you score touchdowns in the redzone. Even the Giants run a defense that essentially allows teams to take yards. Bend but don't break until the redzone.
Couldn't have taken a QB in 2018 because the front office was still loyal to Eli. By 2019 it was way too late to count on Eli. The Giants were in a tough position of needing to take a QB at #6 with not great choices.
If you buy they had to take a QB at #6 (and I do believe that), then Jones was the best pick.
If they were properly evaluating talent, they take Herbert in 2020 even if they have to trade up to get him or they get a fill in for a year or two to get the guy they want in another draft. In the meantime, they are adding linebacker or OL or Edge or some other position. That's what Buffalo did. That's what the Niners did. That's what Pittsburgh did with Roethlisberger. That's what Tennessee did. That's what Baltimore did.
The Giants are formulaic- you go and get a qb to understudy the current starter and move into the position. But you can see that with a lot of these star qb's in college and the pros running more college based offenses, this year or two understudy formula may be a waste of time with some of these qb's.
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In comment 15393367 Carl in CT said:
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
You know what happened. They have barely played or are were hurt. Garrett got run out of Dallas because he was behind the times with offense.
Offense was not the reason his contract was not renewed. Jerrah expects playoffs and playoff victories. Oh and by the way, Garrett's qb's in Dallas were a little known qb from Eastern Illinois and a 4th round pick from MSU. He never had the advantage of working with an uber talented first round 6th pick in the whole draft qb like DJ.
Shurmur wanted Josh Allen, by many accounts.
McAdoo wanted Mahomes, by many accounts.
Whoever in the front office is overruling the HC when they identify the QB they want is exactly who needs to be drawn and quartered.
Barry Switzer and George Seifert have SB rings. Should we seek them out for their opinions? R** H****** has multiple SB rings, if that's your benchmark. Would you want his input?
The simplicity that fans apply to genuine bona fides is insane.
How about we apply intelligence instead of jewelry?
Essex... if I may talk DJ with you without hostility... you are correct in that you can win with mediocre QBs. But, that means other components of the team must be that much stronger- defense, run game, etc. And the windows for those teams to win are extremely small. Having a top tier QB also means the other components of the team can change and be fungible, and the team’s window doesn’t necessarily close. Not only this, but in the case of Jones, having a great, young QB on a rookie contract allows so much team-building flexibility. Now his rookie contract is nearly up, and our roster still sucks. We have wasted the advantage of the rookie contract on a QB who must have other components of the team around him to be great in order to win. This is where the DJ frustration comes in.
Outstanding post Keaton! You nailed it.
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other QBs get pressure
other QBs have WRs drop balls - as egregiously as Engram
other QBs get O-line penalties on big plays
other QBs have coaching woes
other QBs have players making bone headed plays
It all comes out in the wash, and the good QBs persevere.
it's going on three years of excuses. Either everybody else is a screw up and Daniel Jones is the unluckiest fucker in the world... or he's a bad quarterback. Occam's Razor tells you it is the latter.
But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
He's on pace for a second straight season with less than a dozen passing TDs. In an era when NFL passing & scoring is at an all-time high.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
...and they've both led their teams to multiple victories vs. Danny's zero.
Plus Arm - no
Quick Release - no
Pocket Awareness - no
Pre Snap Reading - no
Sees the whole field - no
Ability to improvise & make big throws on the move - no
Late Game Magic - no
The Giants need to move on. He's had 30 starts to show everyone he can carry a team. That's what a "franchise" Top 10 QB does.
Most of us wouldn’t mind seeing Gettleman proven wrong and shown the door however. His fate is tied to Jones’ performance this year. Let someone else make the two picks next year I say.
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In comment 15393210 Producer said:
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other QBs get pressure
other QBs have WRs drop balls - as egregiously as Engram
other QBs get O-line penalties on big plays
other QBs have coaching woes
other QBs have players making bone headed plays
It all comes out in the wash, and the good QBs persevere.
it's going on three years of excuses. Either everybody else is a screw up and Daniel Jones is the unluckiest fucker in the world... or he's a bad quarterback. Occam's Razor tells you it is the latter.
But he hasn't been bad this year! That is the point. In fact, in week 2 he was the offensive player of the week. He has a higher QBR than BBI's long-pined for Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So, the premise of your argument "three years" of bad play is not accurate. If in a few weeks Jones regresses instead of progresses, I will reevaluate. I can only analyze the situation in front of me. I am not stuck to any conclusion with him. As of now, I feel he could be good, not great. I will wait for further data points and make my analysis as they come in (I do remember you being very critical of Judge for not using data points the other day, no?).
He's on pace for a second straight season with less than a dozen passing TDs. In an era when NFL passing & scoring is at an all-time high.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
And if they let him loose and let him sling it, which they should now do, the TDs will tick up but he'll be a turnover and mistake machine.
I think Jones has overcorrected a bit and looking at how Judge is coaching, they'd rather risk mitigate than take chances. Which works with a good defense which they don't have right now. I mean if the defense has any salt, they are 2-1.
Barkley looks like he wants to hit homeruns, well ok dancing feet, can you hit some? Might help Jones if you scored some long ones.
I can see the vision that Judge has, play mistake free, Barkley gets you some easy scores, Jones is efficient. Defense gets you stops with that secondary. Obviously not working.
He's an NFL QB and a millionaire. He's not just another employee. All the hard work in the world doesn't make up for a talent deficit.
I have no doubt that Daniel Jones works hard. I just don't care unless he performs.
Playing QB is a specialist position. Hard work is the expectation, talent is what matters.
Sure, until the performance metrics say otherwise.
For years.
Hell no. Unless you are delivering on game day - producing points - hard work, practice results, mentoring, etc mean NOTHING.
It's when the lights are on that matter most.
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In comment 15393367 Carl in CT said:
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Has Allen, Eckler and others. Burrow has stud receivers. We have none (even though we pay Gal that kind of $).
Whoa what happened to Barkley, Golladay, Randolph...I thought those guys were going to be great.
Austin Ekeler was an undrafted free agent out of Western Colorado. Barkley emerged from the hand of God.
Rudolph is being paid more than any Charger TE. Golladay just a little less than Allen.
What happened?
and Golladay is as studly as anybody on the Bengals. Jones hasn't figured out how to throw to him.
The guy literally gets NO separation. It’s like he is running in mud