Is Daniel Jones currently a top 10 QB? The numbers say yes

it might bump him higher

the Giants don't need to go QB in the 1st next year, and he has certainly achieved that IMO

In comment 15398082 KDavies said:

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the Giants don't need to go QB in the 1st next year, and he has certainly achieved that IMO

It would be huge to not have to spend the two firsts to move up or use one on a qb, although I am still 'wait and see' if that is the case.

putting the team on his back to carry them to ein is what makes a top qb in my eyes..

With Eli for example when people ask why he is a Hall of famer, first thing you say is his 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives, you dont bring up stats first...

In comment 15398081 Del Shofner said:

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it might bump him higher

It has to be factored in, especially since we do it for others. 7ypc, 10 first downs, 2 scored and a critical 2pt conversion. Barring injury he's on track for 700+ yards on the ground which should continue to have a positive impact on his throwing.

Down 11 points he took control and scored points on three possessions in a hostile environment. Showed composure and made plays. That is what you want from someone that you think can win a championship one day. Let him build on it.

.

a top 10 QB right now. To me what matters most is he is finally looking like the guy that will be here long term. That was the biggest question facing this team to start the year.

His passing grade ranks second only to Brady through 4 games.

making popcorn now

In comment 15398087 nygiants16 said:

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putting the team on his back to carry them to ein is what makes a top qb in my eyes..

I would not even say he is a "top QB". If you said a QB we can win with, that is probably more accurate.

I expect the occasional fumble, but the volume of them being an afterthought is great - hope it continues. We are also seeing less drops this year, especially those tipped up for INTs.

v WFT, than yes, he certainly will be a top 10 QB. And it wasn't just the numbers, I thought DJ passed the eye test. He wasn't locking onto WR's, scanned the field, and made quick decisions. It was never about his throwing to me, it was his pocket presence and decision-making. He looked the part yesterday.

In comment 15398113 EricJ said:

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In comment 15398087 nygiants16 said: Quote: putting the team on his back to carry them to ein is what makes a top qb in my eyes.. I would not even say he is a "top QB". If you said a QB we can win with, that is probably more accurate.

I am not saying he is yet, i am saying performances like yesterday is what does

I hope to see it for the rest of the year so that we can use those 2 1st round picks on an Edge and OT.

I don't think so. The offense needs to produce more TDs and move into the top-half of points produced across the league for me to be ready to call Jones that. I think we are currently tied for 22nd in PPG. But we'll get there with more performances like WAS/NO.

And I would not give him a longterm deal yet because he may just be a QB that plays as well as the situations the person calling plays puts him in. You look at the elite QB's they can make plays when the play call is not there. That being said I don't think the fifth year option, if he plays like he is deserving of it, is "QB Hell" that some make it out to be. For me, a key factor is length of overpriced contract. Even if you exercised fifth year option you could still spend a 2022 or 2023 1st Round pick on a QB if you thought a better option was available because, for either the Giants or another team, Jones is only locked up through 2023 so you are not stuck with an albatross of a contract and a young QB you want to get reps.

And doing enough at the moment that the Giants shouldn't spend a first round pick on qb. That being said, I'd like to see him develop more mobility to make more off scheduled plays downfield, that truly make top qbs.

QB yet. I think we have all seen he has the ability to be one, but there certain things that need to happen to get us there. First, the turnovers have to go away over a longer period than four games. Second, the offense needs to be more productive. Finally, as many have pointed out, this has to be the consistent performance (meaning games like this every 3 out of 4 games) as opposed to 2 of 4 or sometimes less. What we do know for certain, though, is he has the ability to be a top 10 guy it is just the consistency (which is not small thing) needs to be proven.

He played really well, but I don't know how you can overlook the poor TD production. That is probably the most important statistic of all.

I don't care if he throws for 5 yards an attempt and 200 yards if he is so efficient to score 4-5 TD's a game.

It's a huge blemish on him right now...

I'm ecstatic he raised his game and brought us from behind at the end yesterday -- something I've been waiting to see from him since the beginning -- but without that herculean effort this was a team that scored 10 points through 3 quarters and if they weren't in total desperation mode and pulled the rabbit out what would we all be saying this morning?

Next he has to beat off this mental block and actually score in the red zone and for the love of god stop settling for FG's.

In comment 15398161 Essex said:

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QB yet. I think we have all seen he has the ability to be one, but there certain things that need to happen to get us there. First, the turnovers have to go away over a longer period than four games. Second, the offense needs to be more productive. Finally, as many have pointed out, this has to be the consistent performance (meaning games like this every 3 out of 4 games) as opposed to 2 of 4 or sometimes less. What we do know for certain, though, is he has the ability to be a top 10 guy it is just the consistency (which is not small thing) needs to be proven.

Well said, Essex.

It was nice to see him fist pump after the Ross TD. The dude is so measured, so unassuming in press conferences it’s hard to know who he is as a person. I get that he needs to be like this given the media. It’s a sign of maturity. But he makes Eli look like the life of the party.

In comment 15398163 GiantTuff1 said:

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He played really well, but I don't know how you can overlook the poor TD production. That is probably the most important statistic of all. I don't care if he throws for 5 yards an attempt and 200 yards if he is so efficient to score 4-5 TD's a game. It's a huge blemish on him right now... I'm ecstatic he raised his game and brought us from behind at the end yesterday -- something I've been waiting to see from him since the beginning -- but without that herculean effort this was a team that scored 10 points through 3 quarters and if they weren't in total desperation mode and pulled the rabbit out what would we all be saying this morning? Next he has to beat off this mental block and actually score in the red zone and for the love of god stop settling for FG's.

If we are scoring TD's in the red zone I don't care if it is because Jones or one of our backs ran it in or Jones had a passing TD. The playcalling does not help (jet sweep to Engram, too many players running routes close together), but Jones needs to do a better job looking off defenders and going through progressions faster.

behind Lamar Jackson who is clearly number 1, and number 2 is Jalen Hurts.

or even much higher than that.

What I'd like to see is the instinct for the position that top QBs display. Some have it right out of college, for others it takes a while. I think this is the year we see it. Yesterday's comeback was huge.

The other side of the coin is whether the coaches will open up the offense and LET him by a top QB. I hope yesterday's performance inspires the coaches to put their foot on the gas for 60 minutes a game.

In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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.

Lol, you really are insufferable.

So next time we play awesome and lose we shouldn't hear calls for his head since the competition matters, right?

In comment 15398161 Essex said:

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QB yet. I think we have all seen he has the ability to be one, but there certain things that need to happen to get us there. First, the turnovers have to go away over a longer period than four games. Second, the offense needs to be more productive. Finally, as many have pointed out, this has to be the consistent performance (meaning games like this every 3 out of 4 games) as opposed to 2 of 4 or sometimes less. What we do know for certain, though, is he has the ability to be a top 10 guy it is just the consistency (which is not small thing) needs to be proven.

The turnovers have gone away for a longer than a 4 game stretch.. look at the last 10 games.. I believe he has something like 4 turnovers in the past 10 games

In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Ah...OK. So the team that he just beat down 11 in the 4th and put the entire team on his back- where this whole board was saying we shouldn't even bother to show up for and we were going to get absolutely embarrassed.....i guess that doesn't give us a "better idea" does it? Jesus.

the "Jones doesn't throw TD passes" thing is such a tired take. Who gives a shit if our RB runs it in, or Jones runs it in. Play calling also has a huge factor in this. Who here thinks that he wouldn't have thrown a TD had they not taken the ball out of his hands against WFT? Who thinks he wouldn't have thrown a TD had they not run a fucking reverse to our tight end on the 3 yard line?

In comment 15398205 ryanmkeane said:

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the "Jones doesn't throw TD passes" thing is such a tired take. Who gives a shit if our RB runs it in, or Jones runs it in. Play calling also has a huge factor in this. Who here thinks that he wouldn't have thrown a TD had they not taken the ball out of his hands against WFT? Who thinks he wouldn't have thrown a TD had they not run a fucking reverse to our tight end on the 3 yard line?

I understand the national scene harping on this, but Giants fans and local media should really know better. We basically never pass in the red zone. Our red-zone play calling is atrocious.

by all of the Jones haters that YPA and TD/INT ratio were the biggest QB metrics. Well - he's doing really well in both of those. I'm sure the normal crew will find something new to say about him to knock him down a peg.

Before it was like beat a good team. Then reduce turnovers. Then it was carry the team to a win (the old "elevate the players out there" argument).

Now we begin to see "do it for a while", as if 4 games vs defenses like Wash and NO isn't long enough. What will be long enough? My guess when he does eventually have an off game then that will prove he can't.

I don't know what he will end up being, but he has had better numbers across the board than Eli did in his first two years with a much, much better supporting cast. People used to say Eli benefited from the family name. Well, Jones has been hurt by the fact he played at Duke with a terrible team around him (and the same with the Giants). I believe he's better than Darnold, hands down, and look what Darnold is doing with some good pieces around him now.

In comment 15398188 Chris684 said:

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In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Lol, you really are insufferable. So next time we play awesome and lose we shouldn't hear calls for his head since the competition matters, right?

I'm sorry if you feel like my comment was in any way unreasonable. It wasn't. He's facing a run of playoff-level teams. We'll learn a lot based on how he performs. There's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

In comment 15398197 ryanmkeane said:

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In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Ah...OK. So the team that he just beat down 11 in the 4th and put the entire team on his back- where this whole board was saying we shouldn't even bother to show up for and we were going to get absolutely embarrassed.....i guess that doesn't give us a "better idea" does it? Jesus.

One of the qualities of a "top 10 QB" is to play well against the better teams in the league.

Is that proven based on one or two games, or is that proven over time and consistency?

he's not there yet. But he was very good yesterday.

In comment 15398216 PatersonPlank said:

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Before it was like beat a good team. Then reduce turnovers. Then it was carry the team to a win (the old "elevate the players out there" argument). Now we begin to see "do it for a while", as if 4 games vs defenses like Wash and NO isn't long enough. What will be long enough? My guess when he does eventually have an off game then that will prove he can't.

I'm sorry, but if you feel like wanting to see it for more than a game or two is too much to ask, then you're being ridiculous.

If the context is "top 10 QB", then yes. Top ten QBs score points, make plays in the 4th quarter, don't have many turnovers, and also are consistent. They do all those things.

The standard for a top 10 QB is high.

The coaching has definitely limited his TDs (the Engram reverse was capsulized our offensive philosophy) however it has likely limited his turnovers as well. Until the coaching staff lets him play with more freedom and gets more innovative in the passing game we really won’t know. It is frustrating to watch at times. Would be worse the 1-3 if the coaching allowed Jones to throw more in the red zone? Unlikely. Hopefully things start to change as Andrew Thomas continues to improve and the WRs get more reps.

I watched some of the creative plays the Patriots ran for Mac Jones and was a bit envious. The double backfield release play (running back ran a wheel route to clear out the defender then The TE followed in the same path and there were no defenders left) was awesome. I hope Garrett gets more creative as he gets more faith in the players.

In comment 15398220 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15398188 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Lol, you really are insufferable. So next time we play awesome and lose we shouldn't hear calls for his head since the competition matters, right? I'm sorry if you feel like my comment was in any way unreasonable. It wasn't. He's facing a run of playoff-level teams. We'll learn a lot based on how he performs. There's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Yea there is.

People like you trying to act like the voice of reason now is hilarious.

You and others have taken a dump on this kid week after week and now you're trying to act measured. That's rich.

And of course, the next play in your playbook is to move the goal posts because that's all you can do now.

The come from behind win is big. Before the season started, I circled week 5 against Dallas as my barometer. Show up BIG in that game, win or lose, and I will start to believe again.

In comment 15398239 Chris684 said:

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In comment 15398220 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15398188 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Lol, you really are insufferable. So next time we play awesome and lose we shouldn't hear calls for his head since the competition matters, right? I'm sorry if you feel like my comment was in any way unreasonable. It wasn't. He's facing a run of playoff-level teams. We'll learn a lot based on how he performs. There's nothing to get bent out of shape about. Yea there is. People like you trying to act like the voice of reason now is hilarious. You and others have taken a dump on this kid week after week and now you're trying to act measured. That's rich. And of course, the next play in your playbook is to move the goal posts because that's all you can do now.

Show me the last time I said anything negative about jones.

You can't.

You're just sick of other people complaining, so you group everyone together that isn't throwing the absolute unquestioned praise you want at him.

In comment 15398195 g56blue10 said:

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In comment 15398161 Essex said: Quote: The turnovers have gone away for a longer than a 4 game stretch.. look at the last 10 games.. I believe he has something like 4 turnovers in the past 10 games

Skinner pointed out that since Andrew Thomas "turned the corner" in the TB game, he has two INTs. One was a drop by 88, and one was the Hail Mary yesterday.

In comment 15398093 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15398081 Del Shofner said: Quote: it might bump him higher It has to be factored in, especially since we do it for others. 7ypc, 10 first downs, 2 scored and a critical 2pt conversion. Barring injury he's on track for 700+ yards on the ground which should continue to have a positive impact on his throwing.

Total offense leaders through 4 games:
1. Tom Brady • TAM 1333
2T. Jalen Hurts • PHI 1325
2T. Kyler Murray • ARI 1325
4. Daniel Jones • NYG 1318
5. Lamar Jackson • BAL 1301
6. Patrick Mahomes • KAN 1281

Josh Allen last year (full year):
69% comp, 284 ypg, 7.9 ypa, 26 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT

Daniel Jones through 4 games this year:
67% comp, 296 ypg, 8.2 ypa, 47 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT

Jones is off the overall passing touchdown pace Allen was on last year by half (1 per game currently as opposed to 2), but I think a lot of that is because of the offensive systems. Keep playing the way they did yesterday in terms of shot plays and that gap will close. He's been better with respect to turnovers (both fumbles and INTs), likely in part because of the conservatism.

so I'd ask the thread, was Josh Allen a top 10 QB last year? By the end of the year yes he probably was (but still clearly behind Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Brady and probably belongs somewhere in the Lamar/Dak range).

In comment 15398244 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15398239 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 15398220 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15398188 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 15398097 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Lol, you really are insufferable. So next time we play awesome and lose we shouldn't hear calls for his head since the competition matters, right? I'm sorry if you feel like my comment was in any way unreasonable. It wasn't. He's facing a run of playoff-level teams. We'll learn a lot based on how he performs. There's nothing to get bent out of shape about. Yea there is. People like you trying to act like the voice of reason now is hilarious. You and others have taken a dump on this kid week after week and now you're trying to act measured. That's rich. And of course, the next play in your playbook is to move the goal posts because that's all you can do now. Show me the last time I said anything negative about jones. You can't. You're just sick of other people complaining, so you group everyone together that isn't throwing the absolute unquestioned praise you want at him.

It's not unquestioned praise. Jones is not a top 10 QB right now, but I think he's out there proving every week he just might grow into one, and at a minimum seems like a guy we can win with both short and long term.

I'm not going to claim I know every post you have or haven't made about Jones but your call on this thread to see it against "better" competition is ridiculous.

Probably 95% of people who follow football including Giants fans didn't think they could win this game and now on Monday morning we're going to claim that it's not an impressive enough win for Jones believers to hang their hats on? Give me a break.

but I am not sure if it is play calling, learning a new offense last year, wr injuries, new wr receivers this year or just regression but as a rookie he did this:

Most passing touchdowns in a single game by a rookie quarterback: 5 (December 22, 2019 vs. Washington Redskins) (tied with four others)

First rookie to have three games with four touchdown passes and no interceptions

People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year.

SO FAR.

Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass.

We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win.

Come ready for war next week.

This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly.

A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees.

He had an unquestionably great game against a very good defense. He’s put up solid production in the other games.

He’s off to the start many of felt was missing to consider him as a viable solution. It’s a positive development.

In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said:

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People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees.

Lol. Have to win in Dallas now to prove something. And after that we will have to beat a playoff team on the road right?

We likely aren't winning in Dallas, so I guess Jones will be a bust again

Jones has the goods and is getting better

In comment 15398262 christian said:

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He had an unquestionably great game against a very good defense. He’s put up solid production in the other games. He’s off to the start many of felt was missing to consider him as a viable solution. It’s a positive development.

Well said!

In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said:

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People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees.

The OP said "saying he's top 10 is defensible" he isn't taking a victory lap. Is acknowledging a positive all it takes to be considered taking a victory lap these days?

The guy has had a much better start to year 3 than many (including myself) thought he would. We should probably be happy about that.

Go do that.

In comment 15398274 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees. Lol. Have to win in Dallas now to prove something. And after that we will have to beat a playoff team on the road right? We likely aren't winning in Dallas, so I guess Jones will be a bust again

YES>

If you consistently lose and play poorly for an entire season...

Do you change that narrative by going 1-3 and putting up decent stats?

Or play well for the better part of an entire season and win some games the matter?

The goal posts never moved.

That is what we should all be looking for.

Consistency.

In comment 15398290 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 15398274 PatersonPlank said: Quote: In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees. Lol. Have to win in Dallas now to prove something. And after that we will have to beat a playoff team on the road right? We likely aren't winning in Dallas, so I guess Jones will be a bust again YES> If you consistently lose and play poorly for an entire season... Do you change that narrative by going 1-3 and putting up decent stats? Or play well for the better part of an entire season and win some games the matter? The goal posts never moved. That is what we should all be looking for. Consistency.

Claiming NYG had no shot to win and then Jones taking the ball 3 times down 21-10 and putting up 17 unanswered points and looking awesome doing it and afterwards claiming the "opposition" wasn't good enough is moving the goalposts.

In comment 15398286 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees. The OP said "saying he's top 10 is defensible" he isn't taking a victory lap. Is acknowledging a positive all it takes to be considered taking a victory lap these days? The guy has had a much better start to year 3 than many (including myself) thought he would. We should probably be happy about that.

Through 4 games, the majority of his stats are top 10.

I concede that.

1-3 matters for a QB.

We can agree to disagree if this is not an important QB metric to you.

Team game vs no one except a starting pitcher or a goalie has more of an impact on wins and losses than a QB.

This is a common debate that will not be won or lost.

A win in Dallas will go a long way for me.

If he shits the bed vs Dallas, the team is 1-4 and going no where.

2-3 and win vs Dallas and we have hope.

This 1 game is a VERY big deal.

Like it or not.

Dramatically the last few seasons. That makes it hard for long time fans to use their eyes and judge how a QB rates among the competition. And it’s hard to use absolute metrics (like YPA) and history to judge because of the inflated numbers.

So far comparative rankings show Jones is a top 10 QB. It shows across a variety of metrics. Can he improve? Of course, he can. But I think it’s now becoming a reasonable expectation that Jones can be a 5-10 ranked QB in the league.

(Also, does Jason Garrett still suck?)

I’ve been a strong DJ critic here and like some others I see a lot of goalpost shifting here.

This is great news for our beleaguered franchise.

In comment 15398290 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15398274 PatersonPlank said: Quote: In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees. Lol. Have to win in Dallas now to prove something. And after that we will have to beat a playoff team on the road right? We likely aren't winning in Dallas, so I guess Jones will be a bust again YES> If you consistently lose and play poorly for an entire season... Do you change that narrative by going 1-3 and putting up decent stats? Or play well for the better part of an entire season and win some games the matter? The goal posts never moved. That is what we should all be looking for. Consistency.

precisely..

consistency se4parates the good from the mediocre. And the great from the merely good.

In comment 15398305 Chris684 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398290 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 15398274 PatersonPlank said: Quote: In comment 15398261 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: People have been calling for Jones head because he was CONSISTENTLY bad in 2020. His play is better this year. SO FAR. Keep it up and everyone will be kissing his ass. We are 1-3, had Jones made a play or 2 more we could have another win. Come ready for war next week. This narrative that people want the Giants to lose is silly. A big win in Dallas with heroics from Jones will have people so starved for wins they will be on their knees. Lol. Have to win in Dallas now to prove something. And after that we will have to beat a playoff team on the road right? We likely aren't winning in Dallas, so I guess Jones will be a bust again YES> If you consistently lose and play poorly for an entire season... Do you change that narrative by going 1-3 and putting up decent stats? Or play well for the better part of an entire season and win some games the matter? The goal posts never moved. That is what we should all be looking for. Consistency. Claiming NYG had no shot to win and then Jones taking the ball 3 times down 21-10 and putting up 17 unanswered points and looking awesome doing it and afterwards claiming the "opposition" wasn't good enough is moving the goalposts.

Claiming NYG had no shot to win

claiming the "opposition" wasn't good enough is moving the goalposts.

You are speaking to someone else with these statements.

I NEVER made either.

to start the season.

I tried to bet Terps Jones would be over 7.5 AY/A for the year before the season.

Wins even are more important AY/A for me.

He made multiple throws on third down to extend drives, any of which that were incomplete, we lose.

Before last week when faced with this scenario Jones fails.

If he converts a 3rd down late vs the Falcons and we win.

I am not a hater.

I want to believe.

I am not apologizing for wanting to see more of it before I say he is there.

football is a team sport. eventually - once you see that your QB has it, you gotta just continue to try and get better around him. when are we going to admit that Jones is the guy? after he wins 7 games in a row? He's our QB. Yeah - it would be awesome to see him play 6 amazing games in a row like he had yesterday. That is unlikely to happen.

In comment 15398252 Eric on Li said:

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Josh Allen last year (full year): 69% comp, 284 ypg, 7.9 ypa, 26 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Daniel Jones through 4 games this year: 67% comp, 296 ypg, 8.2 ypa, 47 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Jones is off the overall passing touchdown pace Allen was on last year by half (1 per game currently as opposed to 2), but I think a lot of that is because of the offensive systems. Keep playing the way they did yesterday in terms of shot plays and that gap will close. He's been better with respect to turnovers (both fumbles and INTs), likely in part because of the conservatism. so I'd ask the thread, was Josh Allen a top 10 QB last year? By the end of the year yes he probably was (but still clearly behind Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Brady and probably belongs somewhere in the Lamar/Dak range).

Allen threw for 37 TDs last year and ran for eight. Jones is on pace for 17 and on pace for 8.5 (with the extra game). That difference is huge for me.

Too small. He looked great yesterday.

I'm not even going to argue that point, and if he continues to play on this level it would be great - that's what we're all waiting for.

My only objection would be this:

Quote:

Jones has been playing some pretty decent defenses. The Falcons suck but the other teams are at least ok.

Washington's defense has been legitimately awful, and they got lit up by Matt Ryan yesterday.

"We've got a ways to go here. So put away the anointing oil, OK?"

Jones played a great game and got NYG a tough road win. It's something to build on. Let's see if he does.

But there a shit ton of QBs who are better or on the same levels as him

Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Stafford
Wilson
Murray
Jackson
Prescott
Herbert
Burrow
Allen
Cousins
Darnold

And then there’s guys like Ryan and Hurts as well. Jones has been much better but he’s hasn’t established himself as CLEARLY better than any of them.

In comment 15398309 cosmicj said:

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Dramatically the last few seasons. That makes it hard for long time fans to use their eyes and judge how a QB rates among the competition. And it’s hard to use absolute metrics (like YPA) and history to judge because of the inflated numbers. So far comparative rankings show Jones is a top 10 QB. It shows across a variety of metrics. Can he improve? Of course, he can. But I think it’s now becoming a reasonable expectation that Jones can be a 5-10 ranked QB in the league. (Also, does Jason Garrett still suck?) I’ve been a strong DJ critic here and like some others I see a lot of goalpost shifting here. This is great news for our beleaguered franchise.

See the linked thread. I see prominent Jones 'critics' like Terps/BW lay out firm expectations.

I see the prominent Jones supporters point to playoffs/double-digit wins - which we haven't had yet.

I didn't post in that thread but my own view is that the bar is to lead a top third offense and/or be in the top third of touchdowns produced for QBs (with a top third TD/turnover ratio as well).

We have thirteen games left and Jones is trending positively.
Reasonable expectations for Daniel Jones for 2021 - ( New Window )

In comment 15398339 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

football is a team sport. eventually - once you see that your QB has it, you gotta just continue to try and get better around him. when are we going to admit that Jones is the guy? after he wins 7 games in a row? He's our QB. Yeah - it would be awesome to see him play 6 amazing games in a row like he had yesterday. That is unlikely to happen.

Good QBs play well almost every week. I'm not expecting him to win 7 games in a row or throw for 400 yards every week, but the Washington game should be the baseline. That's what good QBs do consistently.

Let’s see how the body of work over the seventeen game season plays out and how the offense finishes on a PPG basis. At that point we can see if this is really a top ten QB.

Right now, no one in their right mind would take Jones over Mahomes, Herbert, Rodgers, Wilson, Murray, Stafford, Jackson, Allen, Carr, Dak, Mayfield and even Lawrence.

In comment 15398378 bw in dc said:

Quote:

Let’s see how the body of work over the seventeen game season plays out and how the offense finishes on a PPG basis. At that point we can see if this is really a top ten QB. Right now, no one in their right mind would take Jones over Mahomes, Herbert, Rodgers, Wilson, Murray, Stafford, Jackson, Allen, Carr, Dak, Mayfield and even Lawrence.

Check my list out. I forgot Carr. But Lawrence still has a bit to go and Im just not a Mayfield fan.

In comment 15398378 bw in dc said:

Quote:

Let’s see how the body of work over the seventeen game season plays out and how the offense finishes on a PPG basis. At that point we can see if this is really a top ten QB. Right now, no one in their right mind would take Jones over Mahomes, Herbert, Rodgers, Wilson, Murray, Stafford, Jackson, Allen, Carr, Dak, Mayfield and even Lawrence.

mayfield has 2 TD passes on the season. yesterday he threw for 155 yards with a 45% completion percentage.

im not necessarily bullish on jones and he has a lot to prove yet, but he's been a lot better than mayfield this season despite the 1-3 record.

In comment 15398380 GNewGiants said:

Quote:

In comment 15398378 bw in dc said: Quote: Let’s see how the body of work over the seventeen game season plays out and how the offense finishes on a PPG basis. At that point we can see if this is really a top ten QB. Right now, no one in their right mind would take Jones over Mahomes, Herbert, Rodgers, Wilson, Murray, Stafford, Jackson, Allen, Carr, Dak, Mayfield and even Lawrence. Check my list out. I forgot Carr. But Lawrence still has a bit to go and Im just not a Mayfield fan.

I'm not really a Mayfield guy either, but he's won a playoff game. And he does look the part.

I'm not sure on Lawrence personally, but most of the league loves his upside. Physically, he's more talented than Jones.

He is a good enough QB once he has time.

I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL

With them running as much as they run and with Mr Selfish back at WR he will probably be trying to force target him which will result in drops and picks. Looked to be getting better but his production will drop. Jones continues to improve, making less mistakes. Really impressed with the laser he threw to KG on the deep in.

In comment 15398418 montanagiant said:

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I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL

Seriously?

In comment 15398339 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

football is a team sport. eventually - once you see that your QB has it, you gotta just continue to try and get better around him. when are we going to admit that Jones is the guy? after he wins 7 games in a row? He's our QB. Yeah - it would be awesome to see him play 6 amazing games in a row like he had yesterday. That is unlikely to happen.

No, 7 wins in a row is not necessary.

We are 1-3.

The season is on the line in Dallas.

I can't speak for anyone else.

Don't go strawman and say we need 6 amazing games in row.

Consistency.

Not every game.

More good than bad.

A division win vs Dallas would go a long fucking way with fans.

I am not tied to a negative opinion on Jones.

I want my franchise QB to win a game that matters.

He had a chance last year.

He could have changed the whole narrative on his season in 2020 with a late season win.

He could change the entire narrative on the start of this season with a clutch performance vs Dallas.

It is no secret, in any sport, win games that matter and the fans will support you.

We are not bad fans.

We hate the consistent losing.

Win a game that matters.

Be the reason.

The win vs the Saints only got them to the point that a win in Dallas matters now.

In comment 15398387 japanhead said:

Quote:

mayfield has 2 TD passes on the season. yesterday he threw for 155 yards with a 45% completion percentage. im not necessarily bullish on jones and he has a lot to prove yet, but he's been a lot better than mayfield this season despite the 1-3 record.

It's a slow start for sure. But the Browns are the top running team in the NFL, so he really hasn't had to do much.

Plus, they are top four in PPG on defense. And 3-1 in the AFCN. A very complete team right now...

In comment 15398418 montanagiant said:

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I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL

Uh, he's nowhere near LJax and Hurts is ahead of him.

In comment 15398421 Producer said:

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In comment 15398418 montanagiant said: Quote: I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL Seriously?

ARe you going to make a point or just snipe? Am I wrong?

But the worst statistical QB over the last three years has done enough to where he makes your list. Darnolds past is all disregarded why. What has Stafford ever won, guy has been a loser since he was drafted?

In comment 15398373 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398309 cosmicj said: Quote: Dramatically the last few seasons. That makes it hard for long time fans to use their eyes and judge how a QB rates among the competition. And it’s hard to use absolute metrics (like YPA) and history to judge because of the inflated numbers. So far comparative rankings show Jones is a top 10 QB. It shows across a variety of metrics. Can he improve? Of course, he can. But I think it’s now becoming a reasonable expectation that Jones can be a 5-10 ranked QB in the league. (Also, does Jason Garrett still suck?) I’ve been a strong DJ critic here and like some others I see a lot of goalpost shifting here. This is great news for our beleaguered franchise. See the linked thread. I see prominent Jones 'critics' like Terps/BW lay out firm expectations. I see the prominent Jones supporters point to playoffs/double-digit wins - which we haven't had yet. I didn't post in that thread but my own view is that the bar is to lead a top third offense and/or be in the top third of touchdowns produced for QBs (with a top third TD/turnover ratio as well). We have thirteen games left and Jones is trending positively. Reasonable expectations for Daniel Jones for 2021 - ( New Window )

I don't want this to get lost.

I am VERY happy with the improvements so far.

Full stop.

It isn't enough yet.

That's fair.

In comment 15398432 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15398418 montanagiant said: Quote: I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL Uh, he's nowhere near LJax and Hurts is ahead of him.

Ahh, you're correct. He's 38 yards behind Hurts. I' used ESPN stats which does not break it down by position so I have to scan through all rushers...My bad

In comment 15398434 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 15398421 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15398418 montanagiant said: Quote: I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL Seriously? ARe you going to make a point or just snipe? Am I wrong?

It's not a serious take. I don't even think you believe it.

Lamar was the ninth leading *rusher* in 2020. Murray was 17th. Hurts is a better runner. And Fields will eventually be better. Jones is maybe in the Wilson area. Top-5 or 6. But clearly not #1.

In comment 15398445 Producer said:

Quote:

In comment 15398434 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 15398421 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15398418 montanagiant said: Quote: I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL Seriously? ARe you going to make a point or just snipe? Am I wrong? It's not a serious take. I don't even think you believe it. Lamar was the ninth leading *rusher* in 2020. Murray was 17th. Hurts is a better runner. And Fields will eventually be better. Jones is maybe in the Wilson area. Top-5 or 6. But clearly not #1.

Wait a minute...You're all over the place here. What does 2020 have to do with anything? He currently sits behind Hurts and Jackson with regards to Rushing. He actually would be just behind Jackson and ahead of Hurts if that BS holding penalty didn't cost him a 40+ TD run. I'm using this year's stats and you're using subjective prognosis and you ask me if I'm serious? LOL

In comment 15398478 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 15398445 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15398434 montanagiant said: Quote: In comment 15398421 Producer said: Quote: In comment 15398418 montanagiant said: Quote: I do believe that right now he is the top rushing QB in the NFL Seriously? ARe you going to make a point or just snipe? Am I wrong? It's not a serious take. I don't even think you believe it. Lamar was the ninth leading *rusher* in 2020. Murray was 17th. Hurts is a better runner. And Fields will eventually be better. Jones is maybe in the Wilson area. Top-5 or 6. But clearly not #1. Wait a minute...You're all over the place here. What does 2020 have to do with anything? He currently sits behind Hurts and Jackson with regards to Rushing. He actually would be just behind Jackson and ahead of Hurts if that BS holding penalty didn't cost him a 40+ TD run. I'm using this year's stats and you're using subjective prognosis and you ask me if I'm serious? LOL

So in your opinion i have to be limited to the tiny sample size of 4 games. I can't look at their body of work to make an assessment. Montana, you're not serious.

Per his stats with regards to Rushing this "CURRENT" season he is the 3rd top rushing QB in the NFL.

Seriously

In comment 15398082 KDavies said:

Quote:

the Giants don't need to go QB in the 1st next year, and he has certainly achieved that IMO

I still think the jury is out. If Jones maintains this performance for the rest of the season, we can proceed with him another year. Still 14 games to go to see where he is.

In comment 15398435 Giants73 said:

Quote:

But the worst statistical QB over the last three years has done enough to where he makes your list. Darnolds past is all disregarded why. What has Stafford ever won, guy has been a loser since he was drafted?

If wins and losses define a QB's ability (they don't) then Daniel Jones isn't good. But you know QB record is a team stat. A pretty decent coach who knows what he's doing moved off his own QB to get Stafford because he sees considerable talent.

In comment 15398345 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398252 Eric on Li said: Quote: Josh Allen last year (full year): 69% comp, 284 ypg, 7.9 ypa, 26 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Daniel Jones through 4 games this year: 67% comp, 296 ypg, 8.2 ypa, 47 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Jones is off the overall passing touchdown pace Allen was on last year by half (1 per game currently as opposed to 2), but I think a lot of that is because of the offensive systems. Keep playing the way they did yesterday in terms of shot plays and that gap will close. He's been better with respect to turnovers (both fumbles and INTs), likely in part because of the conservatism. so I'd ask the thread, was Josh Allen a top 10 QB last year? By the end of the year yes he probably was (but still clearly behind Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Brady and probably belongs somewhere in the Lamar/Dak range). Allen threw for 37 TDs last year and ran for eight. Jones is on pace for 17 and on pace for 8.5 (with the extra game). That difference is huge for me.

If the NYG had more TDs and points they wouldn't be 1-3 and there wouldn't even need to be a discussion. If they had 1 more TD in each game they'd probably be 3-1 like the Bills were to start last year, and Daniel Jones would be a leading candidate for MIP (which he probably should be anyway). Though contextually also remember Jones had 2 taken off the board in week 2 between the Board hold and Slayton's drop.

So the point is that the underlying QB productivity (yardage/efficiency) is there and they aren't too far from where they need to be converting yardage = points. We've all seen it written ad nauseam but that doesn't make it any less true that the #1 problem has been conservative play calling - both a lack of passing plays downfield and lack of shots into the end zone when in the RZ. With more aggressive play calling they will score more TDs. The raw yardage productivity is there. they can't keep shooting themselves in the feet when they get in the RZ with plays like Engram's jet sweep yesterday. Or the laughably conservative gameplan vs. Atlanta last week.

And yes their turnovers may go up a little with more aggression but that's an area where Jones is pacing better than Allen last year by half even with the hailmary INT. And yesterday they were able to up the aggression and keep things pretty clean on the turnover side.

Offensive game plan vs Atlanta. That is a D that is made to be attacked and instead we played right into their strength

In comment 15398544 montanagiant said:

Quote:

Offensive game plan vs Atlanta. That is a D that is made to be attacked and instead we played right into their strength

they don't even have a strength (see yesterday's collapse vs. WAS). we just decided not to attack their weakness. it was an inexplicable self-own. and what's more frustrating is that it came after 10 days to prepare and on the heels of progress in the washington game where they started the game up tempo and moved the ball really well. All they had to do was the same thing...

In comment 15398522 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 15398435 Giants73 said: Quote: But the worst statistical QB over the last three years has done enough to where he makes your list. Darnolds past is all disregarded why. What has Stafford ever won, guy has been a loser since he was drafted? If wins and losses define a QB's ability (they don't) then Daniel Jones isn't good. But you know QB record is a team stat. A pretty decent coach who knows what he's doing moved off his own QB to get Stafford because he sees considerable talent.

The complaints above indicate Jones cannot be good do to his record, yet in the same thread win-loss is disregarded when it comes to Stafford and Darnold. Can’t trash one guy with a bad team, and indicate another guy only losses because of the team he is on. Giants have been one of the worst teams for awhile and I pre-dates Jones.

every Sunday. Or how about two weeks in a row starting yesterday?

Name one box he doesn't check.
Accurate downfield
Reads porogressions
Calls coverages
Runs
Throws it away when necessary
Good ball security
Can win with a late game comeback (Like Eli)

Just need to see it on weekly basis.

when he is a top 09 quarterback. Everything else is just noise.

That’s on the O? What happens if they get 7-8 possessions the whole game cause Dallas eats up clock? The D is a huge factor in points scored which most people here fail to understand. You can’t score if you can’t stop them. This is happening all year.

into the top 25, which is good progress. With 2 good games and 2 bad games, he's separated himself from some of the worst starters and high end backups. If he keeps it up, he has a chance to be in that middle tier of adequate starters, which would be a big accomplishment from where he started. Overall very nice from Jones considering where he was coming into the year

In comment 15398549 Giants73 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398522 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15398435 Giants73 said: Quote: But the worst statistical QB over the last three years has done enough to where he makes your list. Darnolds past is all disregarded why. What has Stafford ever won, guy has been a loser since he was drafted? If wins and losses define a QB's ability (they don't) then Daniel Jones isn't good. But you know QB record is a team stat. A pretty decent coach who knows what he's doing moved off his own QB to get Stafford because he sees considerable talent. The complaints above indicate Jones cannot be good do to his record, yet in the same thread win-loss is disregarded when it comes to Stafford and Darnold. Can’t trash one guy with a bad team, and indicate another guy only losses because of the team he is on. Giants have been one of the worst teams for awhile and I pre-dates Jones.

Staffords record as 73-90 before he started this season with the Rams.

on target, keep up the solid work.

...he looked to be turning the corner last season until the injury.

This year, he's been pretty good.

And this BS about the coaching staff afraid to turn him loose.....c'mon already. Yesterday they finally started throwing it down the field - versus a good defense - and you see the results. The kid can play.

If not for shabby play calling (missed FG after throwing on 3rd and 1) and the sequence of plays on the FG to make it 21-10 (Engram sweep LOL).....Giants would have probably scored more and looked even better.

In comment 15398544 montanagiant said:

Quote:

Offensive game plan vs Atlanta. That is a D that is made to be attacked and instead we played right into their strength

Bingo.

Opening day is a tough deal, esp when you don't play your regulars.

They looked good vesus WSH and then for whatever reason regressed - from a playcalling perspective - versus ATL.

It was a little better yesterday - deep shots and longer routes - plus using Barkley the way I said he should be used - as pass catcher running WR type routes.

Let's hope Garrett starts to pick up his game because that's going to be the real key to this offense in 2021.

but this is a pretty small sample size, and I'm not even sure if the Giants have played a playoff bound team as of yet.

Let's check back on this after Week 6 or 7.

In comment 15398426 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15398339 ryanmkeane said: Quote: football is a team sport. eventually - once you see that your QB has it, you gotta just continue to try and get better around him. when are we going to admit that Jones is the guy? after he wins 7 games in a row? He's our QB. Yeah - it would be awesome to see him play 6 amazing games in a row like he had yesterday. That is unlikely to happen. No, 7 wins in a row is not necessary. We are 1-3. The season is on the line in Dallas. I can't speak for anyone else. Don't go strawman and say we need 6 amazing games in row. Consistency. Not every game. More good than bad. A division win vs Dallas would go a long fucking way with fans. I am not tied to a negative opinion on Jones. I want my franchise QB to win a game that matters. He had a chance last year. He could have changed the whole narrative on his season in 2020 with a late season win. He could change the entire narrative on the start of this season with a clutch performance vs Dallas. It is no secret, in any sport, win games that matter and the fans will support you. We are not bad fans. We hate the consistent losing. Win a game that matters. Be the reason. The win vs the Saints only got them to the point that a win in Dallas matters now.

I think 7 wins in a row is necessary sorry. OTherwise what’s the point? Then again with the new wideouts having a track meet yesterday and Barkley; is there a point in losing a lot for another draft spot? Despite a great game .... We’re 1-3 and tied for last. If it so that jones is as good as Eli as many here like to claim it would mean doing some of the thing s that Eli did; like helping your team win games and making the playoffs. With that kind of start they had and jones terrible season last year ; I think it would take something really out of the ordinary.... Otherwise again what’s the point? We’re still in wait and see mode and hopefully improving to a playoff team next year but confident we’re going to pay jones 20 mil? Yea ok maybe but it’s sort of like watching the Mets now ; they are winning a ton of games but they don’t mean anything since they are eliminated for post season

In comment 15398532 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 15398345 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 15398252 Eric on Li said: Quote: Josh Allen last year (full year): 69% comp, 284 ypg, 7.9 ypa, 26 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Daniel Jones through 4 games this year: 67% comp, 296 ypg, 8.2 ypa, 47 ypg rushing, 4:1 TD:INT Jones is off the overall passing touchdown pace Allen was on last year by half (1 per game currently as opposed to 2), but I think a lot of that is because of the offensive systems. Keep playing the way they did yesterday in terms of shot plays and that gap will close. He's been better with respect to turnovers (both fumbles and INTs), likely in part because of the conservatism. so I'd ask the thread, was Josh Allen a top 10 QB last year? By the end of the year yes he probably was (but still clearly behind Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Brady and probably belongs somewhere in the Lamar/Dak range). Allen threw for 37 TDs last year and ran for eight. Jones is on pace for 17 and on pace for 8.5 (with the extra game). That difference is huge for me. If the NYG had more TDs and points they wouldn't be 1-3 and there wouldn't even need to be a discussion. If they had 1 more TD in each game they'd probably be 3-1 like the Bills were to start last year, and Daniel Jones would be a leading candidate for MIP (which he probably should be anyway). Though contextually also remember Jones had 2 taken off the board in week 2 between the Board hold and Slayton's drop. So the point is that the underlying QB productivity (yardage/efficiency) is there and they aren't too far from where they need to be converting yardage = points. We've all seen it written ad nauseam but that doesn't make it any less true that the #1 problem has been conservative play calling - both a lack of passing plays downfield and lack of shots into the end zone when in the RZ. With more aggressive play calling they will score more TDs. The raw yardage productivity is there. they can't keep shooting themselves in the feet when they get in the RZ with plays like Engram's jet sweep yesterday. Or the laughably conservative gameplan vs. Atlanta last week. And yes their turnovers may go up a little with more aggression but that's an area where Jones is pacing better than Allen last year by half even with the hailmary INT. And yesterday they were able to up the aggression and keep things pretty clean on the turnover side.

Thanks for the response - I didn't understand your point before.

Agreed on the play-calling. Open up, take more risks. I think Jones has earned it.

I started a thread the day after the Super Bowl about what it takes to win in the NFL (linked below). The targets I listed for the whole offense simply to be middle of the pack were:

2021 Targets

- Score 25 points per game
- Achieve an AY/A of 7.5
- Throw 30 TD passes
- Allow fewer than 30 sacks

Here's where they are:

- 20.8 points per game
- 8.5 AY/A
- 4 TD passes
- 8 sacks allowed

The AY/A is good - Jones is doing much better throwing the ball downfield (his 12.3 yards/completion is up from 10.5 last year) and avoiding turnovers (his only pick is on the hail mary yesterday).

Yards and Y/A are way up for Jones, which is really good. Why isn't scoring way up too? It's not a lack of opportunity - Jones is 11th in the league in pass attempts and the Giants are 18th in total plays run.

The play in the red zone continues to be poor, and that's why the big increase in yards hasn't led to a big increase in points. I typed it in the game thread yesterday after two different drives ended in red zone FG attempts: "Red zone field goal attempts are a loss."

Through four games he is the worst red zone starting QB in the NFL, and the Giants have the worst red zone TD% in the NFL:





He has improved, but there is still a ways to go if this is going anywhere real.
Link - ( New Window )

I can go as far you want until you reach...

Jones has proven...

No.

Not yet.

Beat Dallas and play well.

Then, we are nearly there.

From there, just have more good games than bad ones.

In short, I am looking for a meaningful win in which Jones plays well against a quality division opponent.

Then, just roll like he has been.

didn't expect the ranking to be the absolute bottom.

They Giants are down by 3 and Jones has the ball with 2 minutes.

Are you confident he is going to make clutch plays on the drive to extend it?

When that answer is yes, we are there.

You see why yesterday is only a very good start?

Basically, I am looking for the type of consistency that doesn't make Sunday feel like an outlier.

In comment 15398238 Jarvis said:

Quote:

The coaching has definitely limited his TDs (the Engram reverse was capsulized our offensive philosophy) however it has likely limited his turnovers as well. Until the coaching staff lets him play with more freedom and gets more innovative in the passing game we really won’t know. It is frustrating to watch at times. Would be worse the 1-3 if the coaching allowed Jones to throw more in the red zone? Unlikely. Hopefully things start to change as Andrew Thomas continues to improve and the WRs get more reps. I watched some of the creative plays the Patriots ran for Mac Jones and was a bit envious. The double backfield release play (running back ran a wheel route to clear out the defender then The TE followed in the same path and there were no defenders left) was awesome. I hope Garrett gets more creative as he gets more faith in the players.

Surprised? Speak for yourself, some of us aren’t surprised at all

In comment 15398744 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I started a thread the day after the Super Bowl about what it takes to win in the NFL (linked below). The targets I listed for the whole offense simply to be middle of the pack were: 2021 Targets - Score 25 points per game - Achieve an AY/A of 7.5 - Throw 30 TD passes - Allow fewer than 30 sacks Here's where they are: - 20.8 points per game - 8.5 AY/A - 4 TD passes - 8 sacks allowed The AY/A is good - Jones is doing much better throwing the ball downfield (his 12.3 yards/completion is up from 10.5 last year) and avoiding turnovers (his only pick is on the hail mary yesterday). Yards and Y/A are way up for Jones, which is really good. Why isn't scoring way up too? It's not a lack of opportunity - Jones is 11th in the league in pass attempts and the Giants are 18th in total plays run. The play in the red zone continues to be poor, and that's why the big increase in yards hasn't led to a big increase in points. I typed it in the game thread yesterday after two different drives ended in red zone FG attempts: "Red zone field goal attempts are a loss." Through four games he is the worst red zone starting QB in the NFL, and the Giants have the worst red zone TD% in the NFL: He has improved, but there is still a ways to go if this is going anywhere real. Link - ( New Window )

That sample size is small.

That is what I am watching too.

If Jones keeps playing like Sunday, the Red Zone numbers will go up.

He has to prove it though.

The Giants scored 1 touchdown in 3 red zone attempts yesterday - the one in OT to win it.

My belief is that the weaknesses in Jones's passing ability are magnified in the red zone.

Toney in particular gets open in a blink. I don't mean to absolve Jones, but I'm not sure Slayton, Engram and Shep are the greatest of red zone targets.

In comment 15398769 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15398744 Go Terps said: Quote: I started a thread the day after the Super Bowl about what it takes to win in the NFL (linked below). The targets I listed for the whole offense simply to be middle of the pack were: 2021 Targets - Score 25 points per game - Achieve an AY/A of 7.5 - Throw 30 TD passes - Allow fewer than 30 sacks Here's where they are: - 20.8 points per game - 8.5 AY/A - 4 TD passes - 8 sacks allowed The AY/A is good - Jones is doing much better throwing the ball downfield (his 12.3 yards/completion is up from 10.5 last year) and avoiding turnovers (his only pick is on the hail mary yesterday). Yards and Y/A are way up for Jones, which is really good. Why isn't scoring way up too? It's not a lack of opportunity - Jones is 11th in the league in pass attempts and the Giants are 18th in total plays run. The play in the red zone continues to be poor, and that's why the big increase in yards hasn't led to a big increase in points. I typed it in the game thread yesterday after two different drives ended in red zone FG attempts: "Red zone field goal attempts are a loss." Through four games he is the worst red zone starting QB in the NFL, and the Giants have the worst red zone TD% in the NFL: He has improved, but there is still a ways to go if this is going anywhere real. Link - ( New Window ) That sample size is small. That is what I am watching too. If Jones keeps playing like Sunday, the Red Zone numbers will go up. He has to prove it though.

Sunday was an exciting performance because he did it with his arm more than his legs.

He showed a lot of zip and authority on those midfield throws. I though the looked a lot sharper and more accurate in the range than I have seen him before.

The arm strength looks a little better on the midfield throws, he was throwing more ropes.

And he has placed the ball well to his playmakers, and he's force feeding the playmakers. which are good developments.

I still do not see great anticipation. Maybe that will come. That would make this a very big leap.

In comment 15398756 JonC said:

Quote:

didn't expect the ranking to be the absolute bottom.

When you refuse to scheme and let the players just beat their defenders, this is going to happen.

I see picks, shovel passes, cross routes, etc all around the league.

I saw a play yesterday where Josh Allen could have walked in and then decided to flip to a wide open TE I think it was.

Waiting for the day I see that and we don't have to EARN every f'ing yard.

Me too, but keep in mind coaches tend to call a game based on trust the players have earned to this point. Hopefully, this performance was a turning point for ALL of them, otherwise, expect reversion to the mean.

In comment 15398791 JonC said:

Quote:

Me too, but keep in mind coaches tend to call a game based on trust the players have earned to this point. Hopefully, this performance was a turning point for ALL of them, otherwise, expect reversion to the mean.

I think the red zone play-calling (and even the play-calling prior to the FG to take us to OT) show a lack of faith in the offense. They need to loosen the reigns a bit.

In comment 15398744 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The play in the red zone continues to be poor, and that's why the big increase in yards hasn't led to a big increase in points. I typed it in the game thread yesterday after two different drives ended in red zone FG attempts: "Red zone field goal attempts are a loss." Through four games he is the worst red zone starting QB in the NFL, and the Giants have the worst red zone TD% in the NFL.( New Window )

The red zone offense has been very frustrating and has been an issue for Giants O every season Jones has been here. Would love to see the numbers on the personnel groupings we throw out there in the red zone vs other teams. For a team with a bad group of TEs, Giants go heavy a hell of a lot.

one quarter of a way thru a season. So list the stats,
and call Daniel a top ten QB already? Not so fast my friend,
he needs to show a lot more, to claim that he is a top 10 QB.
His accuracy and game management was better down on the Bayou.
Lets see how they play in Big D this coming week.

Are the Giants a winning organization based on one good win?
Of course not, lets not carried away with him or this team...

In comment 15398784 BillKo said:

Quote:

When you refuse to scheme and let the players just beat their defenders, this is going to happen.

As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces.

Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54.

And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game).

the offense was impacted by not opening things up prior to the 4th Q. I mean just watch that indefensible series with the Engram end around and the unimaginative Barkley run, to the called shot to Rudolph telegraphed to the point the saints put Lattimore on him. Jason Garrett's default mindset is a down waster.

jones has the mobility, ball placement, and weapons around him to put defenses in uncomfortable positions and so far this year the coaching staff has taken the ball out of his hands on probably 2/3's of their RZ plays. I have no idea how good Jones can be in the red zone but I do think he easily has the tools to be better than Eli (who wasn't a particularly good RZ QB).

literally throwing 3 fades into the end zone on every RZ possession would be a better strategy than what they've done so far. the 1 fade they called to golladay got PI and a barkley 1 yard TD run.

In comment 15398174 Mike in NY said:

Quote:

In comment 15398163 GiantTuff1 said: Quote: He played really well, but I don't know how you can overlook the poor TD production. That is probably the most important statistic of all. I don't care if he throws for 5 yards an attempt and 200 yards if he is so efficient to score 4-5 TD's a game. It's a huge blemish on him right now... I'm ecstatic he raised his game and brought us from behind at the end yesterday -- something I've been waiting to see from him since the beginning -- but without that herculean effort this was a team that scored 10 points through 3 quarters and if they weren't in total desperation mode and pulled the rabbit out what would we all be saying this morning? Next he has to beat off this mental block and actually score in the red zone and for the love of god stop settling for FG's. If we are scoring TD's in the red zone I don't care if it is because Jones or one of our backs ran it in or Jones had a passing TD. The playcalling does not help (jet sweep to Engram, too many players running routes close together), but Jones needs to do a better job looking off defenders and going through progressions faster.

I never said he has to score himself, I should have written that more clearly. He needs to be responsible for the team scoring more often.

The Giants are dead last in red zone efficiency. LAST. The QB is culpable in that. Here are the numbers:

28 Denver 43.75% 45.45% 50.00% 42.86% 44.44%
29 NY Jets 42.86% 33.33% 50.00% 33.33% 100.00%
30 Indianapolis 40.00% 36.36% 50.00% 37.50% 42.86%
31 New England 36.36% 42.86% 66.67% 37.50% 33.33%
32 NY Giants 33.33% 33.33% 33.33% 33.33% 33.33%

The numbers in sequence are: 2021 blended, then last 3, last 1, home, away

They were 2nd to last last year, only the Jets were worse. If you can't score in the red zone you are screwed. The comeback we saw yesterday was amazing, but it is not a sustainable way to win in the league.

I'd bet my house that Jones is never as good as Eli in the red zone. He is just too slow.

In comment 15398800 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15398784 BillKo said: Quote: When you refuse to scheme and let the players just beat their defenders, this is going to happen. As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces. Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54. And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game).

Read some of my other posts.

IT WAS ABOUT TIME.

perhaps it rewards faster players with better arm traits and better processing.

In comment 15398839 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15398800 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15398784 BillKo said: Quote: When you refuse to scheme and let the players just beat their defenders, this is going to happen. As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces. Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54. And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game). Read some of my other posts. IT WAS ABOUT TIME.

However, I will politely say his play calling in the redzone , on the missed FG and made FG were B R U T A L.

Eric, I took a quick look at the stats - Eli was pretty consistently top ten in the Red Zone in TDs/yards.
Pro Football Reference - ( New Window )

Game has sped up in my eyes, I am not sure why his RZ processing won't speed up.

In comment 15398744 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I started a thread the day after the Super Bowl about what it takes to win in the NFL (linked below). The targets I listed for the whole offense simply to be middle of the pack were: 2021 Targets - Score 25 points per game - Achieve an AY/A of 7.5 - Throw 30 TD passes - Allow fewer than 30 sacks Here's where they are: - 20.8 points per game - 8.5 AY/A - 4 TD passes - 8 sacks allowed The AY/A is good - Jones is doing much better throwing the ball downfield (his 12.3 yards/completion is up from 10.5 last year) and avoiding turnovers (his only pick is on the hail mary yesterday). Yards and Y/A are way up for Jones, which is really good. Why isn't scoring way up too? It's not a lack of opportunity - Jones is 11th in the league in pass attempts and the Giants are 18th in total plays run. The play in the red zone continues to be poor, and that's why the big increase in yards hasn't led to a big increase in points. I typed it in the game thread yesterday after two different drives ended in red zone FG attempts: "Red zone field goal attempts are a loss." Through four games he is the worst red zone starting QB in the NFL, and the Giants have the worst red zone TD% in the NFL: He has improved, but there is still a ways to go if this is going anywhere real. Link - ( New Window )

100% on point.

I just posted about red zone efficiency above, and then read Terp's post.

You cannot be a good QB if you cannot score in the red zone. He's showing he's improved outside the red zone, now he has to do it inside the red zone -- where it counts most -- or this team is still going no where fast.

Giants are 32nd in red zone this year
31st in red zone last year (thanks Jets)

Those numbers suck.

In comment 15398777 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

Toney in particular gets open in a blink. I don't mean to absolve Jones, but I'm not sure Slayton, Engram and Shep are the greatest of red zone targets.

Golladay is a proven commodity who just needs time to jell with DJ.

On the other hand, Toney provide something other NYG receivers have been delinquent with: YAC.

Particularly Sheppard, who puts his foot in the ground and appears to lose yardage trying to get extra. And we've seen Slayton simply fall down.

In comment 15398845 crick n NC said:

Quote:

Game has sped up in my eyes, I am not sure why his RZ processing won't speed up.

From your lips to God's ears.

My major knock on him before yesterday was he couldn't orchestrate a come back and lacked that magic Eli had to make plays when they absolutely needed it. He finally did it yesterday, which was great.

Now get better in the red zone and we may have gas to cook with...

In comment 15398800 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15398784 BillKo said: Quote: When you refuse to scheme and let the players just beat their defenders, this is going to happen. As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces. Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54. And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game).

.

You did see his call earlier in the game, when 2nd and goal,
he calls an end around with Engram, what the hell was that?
His RZ playcalling down near the EZ does leave something to be desired. They had 20+ yard plays, and a lot was YAC,
like Golladay and Toney for example.

In comment 15398796 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398791 JonC said: Quote: Me too, but keep in mind coaches tend to call a game based on trust the players have earned to this point. Hopefully, this performance was a turning point for ALL of them, otherwise, expect reversion to the mean. I think the red zone play-calling (and even the play-calling prior to the FG to take us to OT) show a lack of faith in the offense. They need to loosen the reigns a bit.

Coaches can coach scared...if you've watched the NFL for any period of time you'll see this.

How do you throw on 3rd and 1 - then decide you want a chip shot FG (ultimately missed)? Throwing on 3rd and 1 is telegraphing you're going for it on 4th and 1.

And I do understand they want to win - JJ wants wins on his resume.

But in the BIG SCHEME, let's find out what DJ can do and can't do. Yesterday was better - now keep it going and figure out a way to be creative in the redzone.

In comment 15398866 Carson53 said:

Quote:

As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces. Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54. And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game). . You did see his call earlier in the game, when 2nd and goal, he calls an end around with Engram, what the hell was that? His RZ playcalling down near the EZ does leave something to be desired. They had 20+ yard plays, and a lot was YAC, like Golladay and Toney for example.

Okay, the Engram play didn't work. The other team gets paid, too. If EE scores, what's the tone? Great call?

The passes to Barkley and Ross were easily over 20+ yards in the air. But YAC is part of the game.

Look, I really don't want to come off as this super pro-Garrett supporter. I'm not. But he really gets unfairly maligned as THE CAUSE of the dysfunction.

and the playcalling. Its not all on Jones, although I get the attempts by the anti-Jones crowd to now reframe the criticism to Redzone performance (the spots to bitch about are becoming smaller and smaller)

In comment 15398886 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15398866 Carson53 said: Quote: As expected, the Garrett excuse surfaces. Garrett can't win. You guys wanted more shock plays. Well, we had five receptions over 20 yards - 20,21,28,52, and 54. And that was tops in the NFL for the weekend (pending tonight's game). . You did see his call earlier in the game, when 2nd and goal, he calls an end around with Engram, what the hell was that? His RZ playcalling down near the EZ does leave something to be desired. They had 20+ yard plays, and a lot was YAC, like Golladay and Toney for example. Okay, the Engram play didn't work. The other team gets paid, too. If EE scores, what's the tone? Great call?

Has that play ever worked?

In comment 15398888 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

and the playcalling. Its not all on Jones, although I get the attempts by the anti-Jones crowd to now reframe the criticism to Redzone performance (the spots to bitch about are becoming smaller and smaller)

So you can make excuses, but accuse others of moving the goalposts?

The spot to bitch about Jones is the same - he needs to produce more fucking points because scoring points in the passing game is how you win in the NFL.

Yesterday was a high water mark for Jones. There are guys in the NFL doing that kind of thing nearly every week.

You think his performance yesterday was impressive? It wasn't.

In comment 15398777 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

Toney in particular gets open in a blink. I don't mean to absolve Jones, but I'm not sure Slayton, Engram and Shep are the greatest of red zone targets.

Another thing to look forward to. What will be the decision when Slayton and Shep return? Will they get the majority of the snaps?

Just one game, but Toney (who I have been critical of) looks like a different dynamic out there.

Also - use of Barkley in the pass game, running WR type routes (fly patterns, wheel routes, crossing routes).

In comment 15398872 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15398796 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 15398791 JonC said: Quote: Me too, but keep in mind coaches tend to call a game based on trust the players have earned to this point. Hopefully, this performance was a turning point for ALL of them, otherwise, expect reversion to the mean. I think the red zone play-calling (and even the play-calling prior to the FG to take us to OT) show a lack of faith in the offense. They need to loosen the reigns a bit. Coaches can coach scared...if you've watched the NFL for any period of time you'll see this. How do you throw on 3rd and 1 - then decide you want a chip shot FG (ultimately missed)? Throwing on 3rd and 1 is telegraphing you're going for it on 4th and 1. And I do understand they want to win - JJ wants wins on his resume. But in the BIG SCHEME, let's find out what DJ can do and can't do. Yesterday was better - now keep it going and figure out a way to be creative in the redzone.

BillKo, agreed on all counts.

In comment 15398893 Go Terps said:

Quote:

You think his performance yesterday was impressive? It wasn't.

Bwahahahahaha......

In comment 15398889 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15398886 bw in dc said: Okay, the Engram play didn't work. The other team gets paid, too. If EE scores, what's the tone? Great call? Has that play ever worked?

For us? Or any team in the NFL? Like the Chiefs for example...

In comment 15398903 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15398889 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 15398886 bw in dc said: Okay, the Engram play didn't work. The other team gets paid, too. If EE scores, what's the tone? Great call? Has that play ever worked? For us? Or any team in the NFL? Like the Chiefs for example...

Ummmm......us.......

In comment 15398894 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15398777 bceagle05 said: Quote: Toney in particular gets open in a blink. I don't mean to absolve Jones, but I'm not sure Slayton, Engram and Shep are the greatest of red zone targets. Another thing to look forward to. What will be the decision when Slayton and Shep return? Will they get the majority of the snaps? Just one game, but Toney (who I have been critical of) looks like a different dynamic out there. Also - use of Barkley in the pass game, running WR type routes (fly patterns, wheel routes, crossing routes).

.

Toney gives them quick twitch and speed, two things that Shephard doesn't. He just has to learn to stop dancing so much out there, he is not going to hit a HR every play.
All part of the process...

In comment 15398893 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15398888 PatersonPlank said: Quote: and the playcalling. Its not all on Jones, although I get the attempts by the anti-Jones crowd to now reframe the criticism to Redzone performance (the spots to bitch about are becoming smaller and smaller) So you can make excuses, but accuse others of moving the goalposts? The spot to bitch about Jones is the same - he needs to produce more fucking points because scoring points in the passing game is how you win in the NFL. Yesterday was a high water mark for Jones. There are guys in the NFL doing that kind of thing nearly every week. You think his performance yesterday was impressive? It wasn't.

Sure, at least 15 QB's throw for 400 yds every week on the road. Its common place really.

In comment 15398426 Thegratefulhead said:

Quote:

In comment 15398339 ryanmkeane said: Quote: football is a team sport. eventually - once you see that your QB has it, you gotta just continue to try and get better around him. when are we going to admit that Jones is the guy? after he wins 7 games in a row? He's our QB. Yeah - it would be awesome to see him play 6 amazing games in a row like he had yesterday. That is unlikely to happen. No, 7 wins in a row is not necessary. We are 1-3. The season is on the line in Dallas. I can't speak for anyone else. Don't go strawman and say we need 6 amazing games in row. Consistency. Not every game. More good than bad. A division win vs Dallas would go a long fucking way with fans. I am not tied to a negative opinion on Jones. I want my franchise QB to win a game that matters. He had a chance last year. He could have changed the whole narrative on his season in 2020 with a late season win. He could change the entire narrative on the start of this season with a clutch performance vs Dallas. It is no secret, in any sport, win games that matter and the fans will support you. We are not bad fans. We hate the consistent losing. Win a game that matters. Be the reason. The win vs the Saints only got them to the point that a win in Dallas matters now.

Dallas game at end of year wasn’t a game that mattered? By what measure?

In comment 15398893 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 15398888 PatersonPlank said: Quote: and the playcalling. Its not all on Jones, although I get the attempts by the anti-Jones crowd to now reframe the criticism to Redzone performance (the spots to bitch about are becoming smaller and smaller) So you can make excuses, but accuse others of moving the goalposts? The spot to bitch about Jones is the same - he needs to produce more fucking points because scoring points in the passing game is how you win in the NFL. Yesterday was a high water mark for Jones. There are guys in the NFL doing that kind of thing nearly every week. You think his performance yesterday was impressive? It wasn't.

17 unanswered pts against that defense, in that place, in that situation is pretty impressive.

To not acknowledge that is unfair

Too many turnovers - check
Low passing % - check
Weak arm, can't throw long - check
Weak arm, can't throw past the hash - check
Can't beat good defenses - check
Can't process fast enough - check
Lock on to one receiver - check
Can't elevate the players around him - check
Can't put the team on his back and win - check
Sucks in Redzone - current

Keep moving the goalposts

In comment 15398920 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

Too many turnovers - check Low passing % - check Weak arm, can't throw long - check Weak arm, can't throw past the hash - check Can't beat good defenses - check Can't process fast enough - check Lock on to one receiver - check Can't elevate the players around him - check Can't put the team on his back and win - check Sucks in Redzone - current Keep moving the goalposts

Too many check marks.

In comment 15398843 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Eric, I took a quick look at the stats - Eli was pretty consistently top ten in the Red Zone in TDs/yards. Pro Football Reference - ( New Window )

I'm gonna go through this a little more but anecdotally I always felt the RZ was a huge bugaboo for the Giants in the Eli era. I'd guess they had some very good RZ years when the running game was really strong (the 2 often go together) but Eli himself as a RZ QB often seemed limited. Was very good on fades and back shoulder throws but obviously also highly immobile. Not sure the numbers validate this (i'll check) but in the mcadoo era especially I recall the RZ being a big issue (despite Eli posting some of his best overall statistical seasons).

Eli throwing too many RZ interceptions.

In comment 15398931 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 15398843 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Eric, I took a quick look at the stats - Eli was pretty consistently top ten in the Red Zone in TDs/yards. Pro Football Reference - ( New Window ) I'm gonna go through this a little more but anecdotally I always felt the RZ was a huge bugaboo for the Giants in the Eli era. I'd guess they had some very good RZ years when the running game was really strong (the 2 often go together) but Eli himself as a RZ QB often seemed limited. Was very good on fades and back shoulder throws but obviously also highly immobile. Not sure the numbers validate this (i'll check) but in the mcadoo era especially I recall the RZ being a big issue (despite Eli posting some of his best overall statistical seasons).

Eric, that's what I expected as well - I had some free time and figured I'd check the numbers - I was surprised at how well he seemed to do. I definitely had the impression he turned the ball over a lot more in the red zone than he did.

However, I checked the red zone TD scoring percentage after my last post. From 07-13, the Giants finished in the top half of red zone percentage only four times. This is sort of more in line with what I (and I think you) expected. This might be a better measure?
Team Rankings - ( New Window )

which is solid. But it was 11th for the weekend for QBs.

I thought it would be a few ticks higher...

In comment 15398939 bw in dc said:

Quote:

which is solid. But it was 11th for the weekend for QBs. I thought it would be a few ticks higher...

Meaningless INT hurt perhaps?

…DJ is going to be a good quarterback.
Statistics and rankings mean nothing unless you’re talking about W/L and division rankings.

The team needs to win more.

this conversation here's what came up (full article from PFF below). This line in particular made me lol.

Quote:

A big reason for Manning’s success is the addition of rookie tight end Evan Engram and rookie running back Wayne Gallman, who have both emerged as a highly productive red zone targets.

@Goterps I'd take that bet btw. From day 1 Jones has been more accurate, thrown fewer INTs, and is obviously more mobile than Eli. Just having a zone read option in the RZ is huge (see all the 2 point conversions this year). As a rookie he had 13 tds/0 ints in the rz.

the changes in the offense the past few games are imo proof positive to me that Garrett's scheme has had major flaws and nothing amplifies flaws more than the red zone.
Giants QB Eli Manning quietly on pace for career-year in the red zone - ( New Window )

In comment 15398943 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 15398939 bw in dc said: Quote: which is solid. But it was 11th for the weekend for QBs. I thought it would be a few ticks higher... Meaningless INT hurt perhaps?

They typically account for those situations, actually. So I am going to assume the evaluators didn't penalize Jones for that. Look, a near 70 is very solid.

In comment 15398938 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 15398931 Eric on Li said: Quote: In comment 15398843 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Eric, I took a quick look at the stats - Eli was pretty consistently top ten in the Red Zone in TDs/yards. Pro Football Reference - ( New Window ) I'm gonna go through this a little more but anecdotally I always felt the RZ was a huge bugaboo for the Giants in the Eli era. I'd guess they had some very good RZ years when the running game was really strong (the 2 often go together) but Eli himself as a RZ QB often seemed limited. Was very good on fades and back shoulder throws but obviously also highly immobile. Not sure the numbers validate this (i'll check) but in the mcadoo era especially I recall the RZ being a big issue (despite Eli posting some of his best overall statistical seasons). Eric, that's what I expected as well - I had some free time and figured I'd check the numbers - I was surprised at how well he seemed to do. I definitely had the impression he turned the ball over a lot more in the red zone than he did. However, I checked the red zone TD scoring percentage after my last post. From 07-13, the Giants finished in the top half of red zone percentage only four times. This is sort of more in line with what I (and I think you) expected. This might be a better measure? Team Rankings - ( New Window )

Yup exactly. I also think Gillbride/Coughlin had some similar scheme staleness to Garrett, though 15 years ago pre-rule changes was far less outdate than Garrett's offense today.

that is not a typo. 26%. That seems almost unfathomably bad. I don't have full access to PFF but I'd imagine that raw number is so bad even his adjusted comp% would be towards the bottom of the league.

in 2019 it was 54% (which was actually better than Eli's 47% in 2018 with OBJ + Barkley healthy).
in 2020 it 52%.

so I'd say he's not only due for some positive regression but there are some serious schematic issues with their RZ passing game so far this year even beyond last year.

though 1 thing that stands out is Jones has only had 15 passing attempts inside the 20. Which is basically 4 per game (and completing 1/4). Josh Allen and Tom Brady have more than twice as many leading the league with 33. is it as simple as twice as many attempts will lead to twice as manning passing TDs?

Is this more of a continuation of “we should have moved on from Eli”

It’s getting so tiresome explaining the differences in the league in 2005, 2006 stats now where QBs are throwing 40 tds a game.

Eli was publicly talking about about where would be playing next even till what the bears game when he had that amazing comeback and then went on to win it all.

You never heard any such talk about jones which o almost can’t believe. There are people way to quick to pump up Jones. I wonder why

In comment 15398950 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

this conversation here's what came up (full article from PFF below). This line in particular made me lol. Quote: A big reason for Manning’s success is the addition of rookie tight end Evan Engram and rookie running back Wayne Gallman, who have both emerged as a highly productive red zone targets. @Goterps I'd take that bet btw. From day 1 Jones has been more accurate, thrown fewer INTs, and is obviously more mobile than Eli. Just having a zone read option in the RZ is huge (see all the 2 point conversions this year). As a rookie he had 13 tds/0 ints in the rz. the changes in the offense the past few games are imo proof positive to me that Garrett's scheme has had major flaws and nothing amplifies flaws more than the red zone. Giants QB Eli Manning quietly on pace for career-year in the red zone - ( New Window )

This is really interesting, thanks for finding it.

I have read some NFL analytics people state red zone performance is mean reverting to a degree - which I can buy. To your later point, does anyone think Jones finishes the year with a 25% completion rating in the red zone?

He really needs more reps to be analyzed correctly down there.

and in the aggregate he provides a very high, but not impossible, bar for any young QB to aspire to achieve.

nobody is arguing for him to come back or re-litigating the end of his career. I think giant fans more than any other have a clear eyed understanding of his abilities as a player. He was never on the level of Brady/Rodgers/Peyton but was HOF worthy nonetheless.

In comment 15399038 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

He really needs more reps to be analyzed correctly down there.

bingo. to steal a baseball phrase 4/15 is a super small sample size. As is 1/6 from inside the 10.

increasing that sample size with plays designed to give him multiple options in the EZ would seem like a good idea. even something as simplistic as putting golladay on one side and rudolph/engram/colin johnson on the other and throwing fades to the guy with the best matchup. Comp% will be higher than 26% and if they catch it it's a td.

anything is better than trying another jet sweep to Engram.

In comment 15398776 Go Terps said:

Quote:

The Giants scored 1 touchdown in 3 red zone attempts yesterday - the one in OT to win it. My belief is that the weaknesses in Jones's passing ability are magnified in the red zone.

The numbers aren't lying... Jones and the Giants haven't been good in the Redzone. I had no idea it was this bad. I don't believe his passing ability is all to blame here. You watch the play calling also and I think this offense is not designed very well for redzone... throw in things like a jetsweep to the hurt TE on the 2 yard line makes it 3rd and what 5... makes the next play that much tougher. Calling a slower TE pass on a very good CB because of size isn't the best call either.

Interesting find though... If I am Giants I am working pure Redzone for major chunks of every practice because I would bet we haven't been at stopping Redzone either.

In comment 15399006 Debaser said:

Quote:

Is this more of a continuation of “we should have moved on from Eli” It’s getting so tiresome explaining the differences in the league in 2005, 2006 stats now where QBs are throwing 40 tds a game.

It is ruthless. They aren't close to being similar players. But, like Mara, a sizeable portion of the fanbase are addicted to finding Eli 2.0.

Can anyone in here honestly say that the Giants have made good play calls on Offense once inside the Red Zone?

having to get a score on 3rd and long after two running plays got blown up is definitely going to make it a bunch harder to convert.

Absent that idiotic fumble in the Broncos game, it's hard to give DJ grief. He was lights out in the WFT & Saints game. Atlanta game...he was serviceable.

In comment 15399159 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 15399006 Debaser said: Quote: Is this more of a continuation of “we should have moved on from Eli” It’s getting so tiresome explaining the differences in the league in 2005, 2006 stats now where QBs are throwing 40 tds a game. It is ruthless. They aren't close to being similar players. But, like Mara, a sizeable portion of the fanbase are addicted to finding Eli 2.0.

who is trying to find Eli 2.0? You do realize it's possible to compare players to other players without trying to imply only similarities? Compare and contrast is a pretty time worn idiom. Compare similarities, contrast differences.

In comment 15399153 Amtoft said:

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In comment 15398776 Go Terps said: Quote: The Giants scored 1 touchdown in 3 red zone attempts yesterday - the one in OT to win it. My belief is that the weaknesses in Jones's passing ability are magnified in the red zone. The numbers aren't lying... Jones and the Giants haven't been good in the Redzone. I had no idea it was this bad. I don't believe his passing ability is all to blame here. You watch the play calling also and I think this offense is not designed very well for redzone... throw in things like a jetsweep to the hurt TE on the 2 yard line makes it 3rd and what 5... makes the next play that much tougher. Calling a slower TE pass on a very good CB because of size isn't the best call either. Interesting find though... If I am Giants I am working pure Redzone for major chunks of every practice because I would bet we haven't been at stopping Redzone either.

It’s extremely difficult in the redzone when the OL can’t even run block in favorable boxes.

We seriously best off just trying to run fades to KG and Rudolph 3 plays in a row.

Doesn’t help that Garrett doesn’t seem to understand rub routes as well.

Anyone watching the game tonight...THAT is top shelf quarterback play.

3 first half red zone trips. 3 first half touchdowns. Anything's possible but I don't think the Chargers are going to be pointing to an offside call or a dropped pick to rationalize why they aren't 3-1 after this game.

...you fucking pig.

I mean, good observation!

gives me a glimmer of hope . He played with confidence late in the game

In comment 15399185 Eric on Li said:

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It is ruthless. They aren't close to being similar players. But, like Mara, a sizeable portion of the fanbase are addicted to finding Eli 2.0. who is trying to find Eli 2.0? You do realize it's possible to compare players to other players without trying to imply only similarities? Compare and contrast is a pretty time worn idiom. Compare similarities, contrast differences.

Maybe we're reading different parts of the board, but I see quite a few posters looking for Jones to have his 23andme test come back showing he's Eli 2.0.

Look, I'm all for comparing and contrasting players to other players. But it should at least make sense because Eli and Jones are different in so many ways as players.

that DJ is a QB you can win with. Still don't think he's a QB who can carry a team for long stretches, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. (I was going to do a whole post on this distinction last week but figured we have had enough DJ posts. Going to wait for a quieter time--perhaps bye week?--to do a deep dive.)

The frame of the Jones debate is changing. Before, he had major deficiencies in all the significant aspects of QB play. Now we are isolating aspects where he needs to get better. The Overton window is shifting.

Wanted that point noted but your posts here were really educational.

He's improved over last year, there's no question - but we all knew that was coming based on how last year went.

To me the debate has always (and continues to) revolve around the question of whether Jones merits a second contract. I still think he's a long way from that, but I'm sure ownership is looking for every excuse to give it to him. In their eyes he's probably already earned it.

everyone quotes $40m - the best QB's in the game barley make that, Jones wouldn't come close to that unless his production sky rocketed. Not even on my radar of things to worry about. They likely pick up his 5th year option unless he completely shits the bed but beyond that nothing is certain.

Take a look at every QB making $20m per year or more - they didn't get that based on any sort of merit, those contracts were earned with highly productive years. Not all of them ended up being good contracts but they certainly weren't handouts just because they were drafted.

I haven't quoted $40M. I figure between $20M and $30M. For a team that figures to win 4-6 games this year and then face cap issues in 2022 it doesn't make sense to commit to a question mark at quarterback.

And beyond the cap space, will we pass on another QB prospect(s) because we're committed to Jones?

In comment 15399782 UConn4523 said:

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everyone quotes $40m - the best QB's in the game barley make that, Jones wouldn't come close to that unless his production sky rocketed. Not even on my radar of things to worry about. They likely pick up his 5th year option unless he completely shits the bed but beyond that nothing is certain. Take a look at every QB making $20m per year or more - they didn't get that based on any sort of merit, those contracts were earned with highly productive years. Not all of them ended up being good contracts but they certainly weren't handouts just because they were drafted.

So did they get that based on merit or not?

In comment 15399850 Go Terps said:

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I haven't quoted $40M. I figure between $20M and $30M. For a team that figures to win 4-6 games this year and then face cap issues in 2022 it doesn't make sense to commit to a question mark at quarterback. And beyond the cap space, will we pass on another QB prospect(s) because we're committed to Jones?

At 4-6 wins I don't think we commit long term. Depending on his role in 4-6 wins I can see the 5th year still being in play to hedge against a rookie QB that we like being available.

My main point was that I don't think he's got an impending 4-5 year $150m extension just sitting there waiting for him simply because Mara likes him.

In comment 15399891 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 15399850 Go Terps said: Quote: I haven't quoted $40M. I figure between $20M and $30M. For a team that figures to win 4-6 games this year and then face cap issues in 2022 it doesn't make sense to commit to a question mark at quarterback. And beyond the cap space, will we pass on another QB prospect(s) because we're committed to Jones? At 4-6 wins I don't think we commit long term. Depending on his role in 4-6 wins I can see the 5th year still being in play to hedge against a rookie QB that we like being available. My main point was that I don't think he's got an impending 4-5 year $150m extension just sitting there waiting for him simply because Mara likes him.

But do guys get contracts based on merit or not?

There's a reasonably likely scenario that Jones settles into the 14-18 range of QBs. And he shows "flashes". Because all QBs in that range sometimes have really good games.

Plus he gets the "easy to root for" / "nice young man" bump from ownership and fans. Put that all together and it could be another 4-5 years.

Then you've got 8 years of average-ish or worse QB play and an organization that is not likely to assemble the exceptional level of surrounding talent required to lift the QB.

For me, that's a really bad outcome. Yeah, it could stableize us in the 7-9 win range for a while. But its so low upside. I'd actually rather have a bust, so we could easily fold the hard and get new cards

In comment 15399926 Jerry in_DC said:

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There's a reasonably likely scenario that Jones settles into the 14-18 range of QBs. And he shows "flashes". Because all QBs in that range sometimes have really good games. Plus he gets the "easy to root for" / "nice young man" bump from ownership and fans. Put that all together and it could be another 4-5 years. Then you've got 8 years of average-ish or worse QB play and an organization that is not likely to assemble the exceptional level of surrounding talent required to lift the QB. For me, that's a really bad outcome. Yeah, it could stableize us in the 7-9 win range for a while. But its so low upside. I'd actually rather have a bust, so we could easily fold the hard and get new cards

yep

Completely agree. There is no need to wait that long anymore.

and so far is making the best of it. If it still isn’t good enough to get us above .500 then a big decision looms. I don’t know what my thoughts are on that until it happens (or doesn’t happen).

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Plus he gets the "easy to root for" / "nice young man" bump from ownership and fans.

I think this will have a significant influence in the division to keep Jones, but it shouldn’t.

how many of them were 14-18 when they got large new deals? I just don’t see it, or at most it’s pretty rare, which is why I’m not particularly worried about it.

In comment 15399936 Producer said:

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In comment 15399926 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: There's a reasonably likely scenario that Jones settles into the 14-18 range of QBs. And he shows "flashes". Because all QBs in that range sometimes have really good games. Plus he gets the "easy to root for" / "nice young man" bump from ownership and fans. Put that all together and it could be another 4-5 years. Then you've got 8 years of average-ish or worse QB play and an organization that is not likely to assemble the exceptional level of surrounding talent required to lift the QB. For me, that's a really bad outcome. Yeah, it could stableize us in the 7-9 win range for a while. But its so low upside. I'd actually rather have a bust, so we could easily fold the hard and get new cards yep

I know!!! I'd be surprised if this team wins 7 games. Like wha t is the point of that? Especially now in a league with young QBs are shedding their warts by week 3, cutting down interceptions, and motioning wideouts down field and throwing game winning TDs; like the Jets of all things; going toe to toe with goat in New England; showing up on mediocre teams and looking good which were one time busts like Darnold. I mean we're in year 3 of this amazing rebuild and we're still wondering which QB and which Giants team is going to show up against Dallas this week.

and start scoring, and the stats/rankings will fix themselves.

In comment 15400018 JonC said:

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and start scoring, and the stats/rankings will fix themselves.

I keep coming back to one name when I think of how to beat use Jones in the red zone: Cam Newton. Or more recently, look at how the Saints used Taysom Hill against us.

I want to see the red zone offense built around Jones as a runner.

.

they're trying to keep the pounding from goaline plays off Jones. But, they've got to try something to actually score TDs and jet sweeps to Engram ain't it.

In comment 15399948 UConn4523 said:

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how many of them were 14-18 when they got large new deals? I just don’t see it, or at most it’s pretty rare, which is why I’m not particularly worried about it.

Baker Mayfield's going to be the comp there when he gets a new deal. Prior to that, I think Kirk Cousins might be the best example? Three year, $84mm.

In comment 15400048 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15399948 UConn4523 said: Quote: how many of them were 14-18 when they got large new deals? I just don’t see it, or at most it’s pretty rare, which is why I’m not particularly worried about it. Baker Mayfield's going to be the comp there when he gets a new deal. Prior to that, I think Kirk Cousins might be the best example? Three year, $84mm.

That's what's interesting. I don't like Cousins but he put up 27 TD's his last year in Washington and then has averaged 30 per year in Minnesota. If Jones is putting up 30 TD's with 4,500 combined yards, hes our franchise QB and you pay him.

Mayfield is probably the outlier, I genuinely don't know what they do there. I think they definitely get a deal done but his production hasn't been anything close to elite and year 4 isn't starting off too well. They are winning because of the defense and run game.

Tennehill is a decent comp since he was largely unproven until Tennessee. His guaranteed money is on the lower end percentage-wise so some risk is mitigated there.

To you point, I think Cousins is in that 8-12 range. But he was the best comp off the top of my head.

Agreed on Mayfield. He's hard to upgrade but also not good enough to win it all with IMO. Do they give him a deal just because they have a really good team? The best option for them would be trading him and picks for Watson if his legal stuff was resolved.

In comment 15400036 Go Terps said:

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In comment 15400018 JonC said: Quote: and start scoring, and the stats/rankings will fix themselves. I keep coming back to one name when I think of how to beat use Jones in the red zone: Cam Newton. Or more recently, look at how the Saints used Taysom Hill against us. I want to see the red zone offense built around Jones as a runner.

The downside is that there is more risk for injury when you have a lot of bodies flying around cramped quarters. With guys like Shepard, Toney, etc., who can make things happen after the catch, they should be looking more at using Engram, Golladay, and Rudolph to clear out space.

Are we more concerned with winning or with sheltering players from possible injury?

Jones's running ability is the number one weapon this offense has.

In comment 15400160 Go Terps said:

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Are we more concerned with winning or with sheltering players from possible injury? Jones's running ability is the number one weapon this offense has.

That may not be the case any longer. Playmakers are getting healthier.

In comment 15400160 Go Terps said:

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Are we more concerned with winning or with sheltering players from possible injury? Jones's running ability is the number one weapon this offense has.

I recently read, btw, that the overwhelming majority of injuries to QBs occur in the pocket. So the danger of running is likely over-stated.

but I’ve seen enough injuries to know that while a concern it usually isn’t career ending. Burrows success won’t be contingent on his ACL, for example. The season is ruined but long term these guys get healthier, quicker. It will effect a Lamar Jackson more since it’s the best part of his game, but someone like Jones should be running, the reward outweighs the risk.

In comment 15400160 Go Terps said:

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Are we more concerned with winning or with sheltering players from possible injury? Jones's running ability is the number one weapon this offense has.

I think Jones's running ability vis a vis this offense is overstated because Garrett's abysmal playcalling does not put talent in the best position to succeed. Barkley is best used in space a la CMac in Carolina and Garrett consistently has him running into the center of an OL on its 2nd or 3rd OC and 4th or 5th LG. When he opened things up in 4th Quarter and OT the O looked a lot better. Guys like Shepard and Toney are also best making players miss in open space so why do you have them in the red zone essentially running curls that get no separation from DB's? He should be using guys like Golloday, Engram, Rudolph, and Johnson to open space for Toney/Shepard/Barkley. Doing that would also open up space for Jones to get more 1 on 1 situations and potential to run the ball. I am worried about having to go with Glennon at QB that I don't want to see Jones trying to shake off 8 tacklers to score on an RPO.

In comment 15400216 UConn4523 said:

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but I’ve seen enough injuries to know that while a concern it usually isn’t career ending. Burrows success won’t be contingent on his ACL, for example. The season is ruined but long term these guys get healthier, quicker. It will effect a Lamar Jackson more since it’s the best part of his game, but someone like Jones should be running, the reward outweighs the risk.

The risk is always that the QB is going to get hurt and miss games which is significant.

You can have the argument that Jones missing games and falling out of form hurt the Giants postseason bid last year. If he doesn't get hurt, maybe the Giants don't lose 3 of their last 4 games.

In comment 15400259 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15400216 UConn4523 said: Quote: but I’ve seen enough injuries to know that while a concern it usually isn’t career ending. Burrows success won’t be contingent on his ACL, for example. The season is ruined but long term these guys get healthier, quicker. It will effect a Lamar Jackson more since it’s the best part of his game, but someone like Jones should be running, the reward outweighs the risk. The risk is always that the QB is going to get hurt and miss games which is significant. You can have the argument that Jones missing games and falling out of form hurt the Giants postseason bid last year. If he doesn't get hurt, maybe the Giants don't lose 3 of their last 4 games.

That's right.

Jones' running should be part of a gameplan because of its big play potential and keeping the defense honest, not to grind out yards. But he also needs to be smarter taking hits, like being too cute on that sideline one where he took a blow. Get out of bounds and learn how to slide better.

it’s part of his game, and we are a better team for it. If he can’t hold up than he’s not our long term answer.

Why is Glennon the backup? Why was McCoy the backup last year? Why not have a mobile backup?

I actually like him better than McCoy who cost more last year. As far as backups go Glennon is actually 1 of the better passers we've had in a long time (including the good teams over the past couple decades). At that price point I doubt there was anyone much better so I'd rather have a guy who can throw the ball a little bit than McCoy (who could barely throw it at all).

Re: Jones running, I'd rather see him continue to focus on winning as a passer and running sparingly like he did on Sunday. Dak broke his leg running last year. Jones pulled his hammy on a called run last year. The Cardinals season tanked when Murray hurt his shoulder. I saw a stat before week 4 that Lamar Jackson has taken more hits than any player in the league so far this year. More running = more hits = more injuries. Especially called runs as opposed to the way Wilson/Rodgers/Mahomes only run when there's easy yardage and they can avoid contact. Use the RPO sparingly at key moments (3rd downs and RZ), ideally when it's set up to succeed.

In comment 15400290 UConn4523 said:

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it’s part of his game, and we are a better team for it. If he can’t hold up than he’s not our long term answer.

I don't disagree with you, but also him getting hurt completely throws a wrench in a season and most guys simply don't hold up. On some level I understand why they don't call those runs more often.