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Good question to consider now...

Coopcomic : 10/7/2021 7:17 pm
Remember the Jones draft pick was made when everyone was psyched that Josh Allen (DE) had fallen to us? I was psyched for Allen at the time. I'm personally glad to have Jones, I really like him. But Allen was the clear alternative (I don't think Jones would have lasted to 17 where D. Lawrence pick was made IMO). Anyway - what's your take now?
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RE: RE: E...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/9/2021 1:23 am : link
In comment 15403537 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 15403516 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...with the 🎤 drop.



Not surprising.

Only several nights from you saying make threads about football discussion and not about petty disputes and remarks. Congrats on getting thru almost two days on your own commitment.
actually my comment is a direct response to the conversation at hand.
I have maintained that there is no argument to be had and I was right.
Please go fuck off.
RE: I can't even follow what the criticisms are at this point  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 1:28 am : link
In comment 15403556 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and find it bizarre how triggered you guys seem over comments that are pretty close to pro forma for all gm's post draft so i'll bow out here re-posting these wise words:

In comment 15403173 chick310 said:


Quote:



As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.



Yes Eric, you were better off bowing out before you went down this path that you now find yourself without a proper exit strategy versus this whatever, "pro forma"?

Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.

What's really bizarre and triggering is that Gettleman felt an impulse to draft Daniel Jones at #6 back in 2019 for whatever reason and this isn't satisfying enough. You need another GM's opinion of Jones back then to actually substantiate it. That's got to be really agonizing.
RE: RE: RE: E...  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 3:42 am : link
In comment 15403564 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15403537 chick310 said:


Quote:


In comment 15403516 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...with the 🎤 drop.



Not surprising.

Only several nights from you saying make threads about football discussion and not about petty disputes and remarks. Congrats on getting thru almost two days on your own commitment.

actually my comment is a direct response to the conversation at hand.
I have maintained that there is no argument to be had and I was right.
Please go fuck off.


"I'm right about the argument about whether there's an argument."
Here were the first round QB’s available to the Giants between 2018-20  
Sean : 10/9/2021 7:15 am : link
I’m not including QB’s taken before the Giants picked:

Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Josh Rosen
Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Herbert
Jordan Love

Where would you rank Jones?
RE: Here were the first round QB’s available to the Giants between 2018-20  
Mike in NY : 10/9/2021 7:27 am : link
In comment 15403591 Sean said:
Quote:
I’m not including QB’s taken before the Giants picked:

Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Josh Rosen
Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Herbert
Jordan Love

Where would you rank Jones?


He is clearly ahead of Love, Haskins, and Rosen. I am still unsure where to put Darnold because Teddy Bridgewater was hot to start 2020 then struggled mightily as teams got more film on their offense. If going by the Jets only I would not have Darnold above Jones. That being said, Darnold was the QB I wanted most after Mayfield was selected in 2018. I thought he would need Mahomes treatment and that we could offer that with Eli. By the way you left off Tua. I have an incomplete on him because while Miami has won games he has started, the analytics don’t support the record.
Mike..  
Sean : 10/9/2021 7:36 am : link
I did not include Tua because he was picked right before the Giants in 2020 (3rd). The exercise is based on who was available at 2, 6 & 4.
RE: Mike..  
Mike in NY : 10/9/2021 7:53 am : link
In comment 15403596 Sean said:
Quote:
I did not include Tua because he was picked right before the Giants in 2020 (3rd). The exercise is based on who was available at 2, 6 & 4.


Tua was picked 5th. Jeff Okudah was 3rd (after Burrow and Chase Young).
Ah, you’re right Mike..  
Sean : 10/9/2021 8:04 am : link
Tua should be included as well. My apologies.
Ah yes  
ryanmkeane : 10/9/2021 8:34 am : link
A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming
RE: Ah yes  
Big Blue '56 : 10/9/2021 8:47 am : link
In comment 15403619 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming


Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.
DJ is going to have bad games  
cosmicj : 10/9/2021 9:04 am : link
We should all take the long view.
RE: DJ is going to have bad games  
Big Blue '56 : 10/9/2021 9:08 am : link
In comment 15403636 cosmicj said:
Quote:
We should all take the long view.


Bingo!
RE: RE: I can't even follow what the criticisms are at this point  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 10:15 am : link
In comment 15403565 chick310 said:
Quote:


Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.


Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?
RE: RE: Ah yes  
christian : 10/9/2021 10:28 am : link
In comment 15403625 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15403619 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming



Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.


My good man, don’t you also step away from posting during the time the outcomes aren’t in line with your predictions?
RE: Ah yes  
bw in dc : 10/9/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15403619 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming


I’m interested in why you make this remark.

What/where is the panic you refer to?
RE: RE: RE: Ah yes  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 10:37 am : link
In comment 15403680 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15403625 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 15403619 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming



Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.



My good man, don’t you also step away from posting during the time the outcomes aren’t in line with your predictions?


so the whole "not rooting against the giants/i'll be as happy as anyone if it works out" routine that accompanies the dire predictions isn't totally above board?
 
christian : 10/9/2021 10:48 am : link
I think the generalizations into groups of posters is boring.

You take three big critics of Jones; me, BW, and Terps.

We all have a very different views on Jones past, present, and future.

If Jones leads the Giants to the playoffs this year, I guarantee all three of us will be happy as clams.
RE: .  
EricJ : 10/9/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15402777 Go Terps said:
[quote]

And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?

/quote]

No.. it is crazy to compare QBs just on record when everyone knows this is a team game and we have been one of the worst TEAMS in the league for a decade.

What is crazier is having to explain that to you. You are either ignorant (Not likely) or a troll who knows exactly what he is saying.

Let's see what Stafford's "record" looks like over the next three years with the Rams vs his last three years with the Lions.
You can compare Jones's stats to Mariota if you want  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 11:11 am : link
That's not favorable to Jones either.

The funny thing in all this is that the support for Jones as a good quarterback is only based on his being the quarterback for the Giants. If he played on another team no one would be saying these things, because there'd be no case for it.

And if you're concerned about "the long view" with Jones, it's this: is he better than a likely replacement enough to justify paying him a second contract?

If they pay him a second contract I predict it'll go the way it did with Bortles in Jacksonville - we'll be looking at big cap hit when we cut or trade him a year or two into it.
RE: You can compare Jones's stats to Mariota if you want  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15403707 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That's not favorable to Jones either.

The funny thing in all this is that the support for Jones as a good quarterback is only based on his being the quarterback for the Giants. If he played on another team no one would be saying these things, because there'd be no case for it.

And if you're concerned about "the long view" with Jones, it's this: is he better than a likely replacement enough to justify paying him a second contract?

If they pay him a second contract I predict it'll go the way it did with Bortles in Jacksonville - we'll be looking at big cap hit when we cut or trade him a year or two into it.


it sounds like even if they somehow make the playoffs this year you wouldn't be happy as a clam.

honest question, if that's your belief what are you rooting for? whatever outcome is the quickest remedy to move on from Jones?
 
christian : 10/9/2021 11:28 am : link
Oof! Maybe I should stay in my lane when speaking about another man’s clams.
It doesn't sound that way at all  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 11:32 am : link
I don't think they will make the playoffs. And when they don't, I will want to move on from Jones as quarterback.
RE: It doesn't sound that way at all  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15403721 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't think they will make the playoffs. And when they don't, I will want to move on from Jones as quarterback.


ok but if Jones continues playing at a similar level to these first 4 games and they somehow did make the playoffs, which would actually track your Bortles prediction, would you want to move on?
RE: RE: It doesn't sound that way at all  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 11:39 am : link
In comment 15403725 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15403721 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I don't think they will make the playoffs. And when they don't, I will want to move on from Jones as quarterback.



ok but if Jones continues playing at a similar level to these first 4 games and they somehow did make the playoffs, which would actually track your Bortles prediction, would you want to move on?


No. They turn it around and make the playoffs I have to be fair - he's the quarterback.
I'll add also I'm not impressed with his level these first four games  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 11:40 am : link
Certainly not as impressed as you guys seem to be. They still struggle to score points.
RE: RE: RE: I can't even follow what the criticisms are at this point  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 11:44 am : link
In comment 15403673 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15403565 chick310 said:


Quote:




Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.



Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?


With regards to what Denver was doing.

Did the Gettleman quotes contradict any of it?
We don’t have enough information to know whether  
cosmicj : 10/9/2021 11:51 am : link
Jones is worth a second contract. But that’s an improvement from August when the answer to the question was “hell no.”

And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I can't even follow what the criticisms are at this point  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 11:57 am : link
In comment 15403729 chick310 said:
Quote:
In comment 15403673 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15403565 chick310 said:


Quote:




Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.



Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?



With regards to what Denver was doing.

Did the Gettleman quotes contradict any of it?


they did not. i've posted as much as I'm willing to on where my certainty re: denver comes from and plenty of reports just as credible as King back it up. you can choose whichever version you want to believe but don't delude yourself into think any of it is fact - it's all speculation. even the info I claim to have that's quite literally from a horses mouth.
What have you posted at all that represents anything credible  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:09 pm : link
with regards to any report from anybody? Something happens 3 years ago and you are willing to say what at this point doesn’t help your cause. In fact, why even bring it up and argue to this level.
RE: We don’t have enough information to know whether  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15403731 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Jones is worth a second contract. But that’s an improvement from August when the answer to the question was “hell no.”

And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.


I agree it's unlikely they make the playoffs (that's why GT placed the goalposts there) but if Jones keeps playing the way he is he won't be the reason they don't make it. He's played well enough to have a winning record. Slayton and Adoree Jackson not dropping easy balls changes the record but nothing about Jones' performance.

I'm more unsure of the team/coaching staff around him than him at this point. That's not to say I'd extend him now there's still 2 seasons (or more) left to make that decision - but as you said things are looking better now than they did in a month ago. Even if a playoff appearance didn't come with it this year I'd settle for that trend continuing.
Aren’t willing  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:13 pm : link
Typo
This is where we are with King...  
bw in dc : 10/9/2021 12:13 pm : link
He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.

But we shouldn't consider him credible.

I just love this place...

RE: RE: We don’t have enough information to know whether  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15403748 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15403731 cosmicj said:


Quote:


Jones is worth a second contract. But that’s an improvement from August when the answer to the question was “hell no.”

And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.



I agree it's unlikely they make the playoffs (that's why GT placed the goalposts there) but if Jones keeps playing the way he is he won't be the reason they don't make it. He's played well enough to have a winning record. Slayton and Adoree Jackson not dropping easy balls changes the record but nothing about Jones' performance.

I'm more unsure of the team/coaching staff around him than him at this point. That's not to say I'd extend him now there's still 2 seasons (or more) left to make that decision - but as you said things are looking better now than they did in a month ago. Even if a playoff appearance didn't come with it this year I'd settle for that trend continuing.


I placed the goalposts there before the season. It's a reasonable goal - year 3 of a rookie quarterback contract, lots of free agency spending...this was supposed to be the year we made the jump.
RE: This is where we are with King...  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/9/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15403753 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.

But we shouldn't consider him credible.

I just love this place...


Do you think they actually let reporters in the war room and let them report accurately? That isn’t how the NFL operates. Most would pass because they actually have credibility, King is an opportunist hack. “Sure I’ll write whatever you want as long as I get “credibility” of being in the war room to give my rube readers something to chew on.

Guy likes writing soliloquy’s on coffee, how the NFL is reaching out to the “young” audience with their halftime show, and collects legacy paychecks. Dude hasn’t written or reported anything worthwhile in 2 decades.
RE: This is where we are with King...  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15403753 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.

But we shouldn't consider him credible.

I just love this place...


As if Peter King’s popularity and column is somehow better if he reports Denver had Lock as their top QB if they took one. So he purposely lies and says it’s so

The dogging in on this is just nonsense at this point.
Digging in  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:25 pm : link
or maybe dogging works too.
RE: What have you posted at all that represents anything credible  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15403745 chick310 said:
Quote:
with regards to any report from anybody? Something happens 3 years ago and you are willing to say what at this point doesn’t help your cause. In fact, why even bring it up and argue to this level.


you're doing a great job highlighting why i presume many (others not me) who used to share good info no longer do. if you're looking for a certificate of authenticity on a message board youre in the wrong place.
RE: This is where we are with King...  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15403753 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.

But we shouldn't consider him credible.

I just love this place...


you can consider him as credible as every other mediate report that team x drafted the #1 player player on their board. The Redskins said Haskins was the #1 QB on their board too.

And yet if either team was sitting at #1 overall why do I think they wouldn't have taken either player? do you really believe the Broncos passed on their #1 overall QB at pick #20. They had all the top QBs in for predraft visits and were obviously in the market. Do you believe they didn't have a first round grade on any of them?
RE: RE: What have you posted at all that represents anything credible  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15403769 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15403745 chick310 said:


Quote:


with regards to any report from anybody? Something happens 3 years ago and you are willing to say what at this point doesn’t help your cause. In fact, why even bring it up and argue to this level.



you're doing a great job highlighting why i presume many (others not me) who used to share good info no longer do. if you're looking for a certificate of authenticity on a message board youre in the wrong place.


I still don’t know what pieces you did provide, if anything. Show what you are willing to and what actual published reports at least align with it.

That can’t be betraying any secrecies.
Terps - I don't think playoffs are an unfair expectation in year 3  
Eric on Li : 10/9/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15403758 Go Terps said:
Quote:

I placed the goalposts there before the season. It's a reasonable goal - year 3 of a rookie quarterback contract, lots of free agency spending...this was supposed to be the year we made the jump.


the same way I don't think it was an unfair expectation that they should be 2-2 or 3-1 right now (both ahead of time and in hindsight).

but context matters. Kyler imo made the jump last year and they went 8-8 with no playoffs. if the NYG were 4-0 right now because the defense pitched 4 shutouts that wouldn't validate Jones anymore than the opposite should invalidate whatever his performance.
RE: RE: This is where we are with King...  
chick310 : 10/9/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15403770 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15403753 bw in dc said:


Quote:


He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.

But we shouldn't consider him credible.

I just love this place...




you can consider him as credible as every other mediate report that team x drafted the #1 player player on their board. The Redskins said Haskins was the #1 QB on their board too.

And yet if either team was sitting at #1 overall why do I think they wouldn't have taken either player? do you really believe the Broncos passed on their #1 overall QB at pick #20. They had all the top QBs in for predraft visits and were obviously in the market. Do you believe they didn't have a first round grade on any of them?


Read the King article. Obviously you haven’t since he goes thru this.

...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/9/2021 12:47 pm : link
If you look back at the threads this off-season, many Jones supporters were the ones saying playoffs were the benchmark for him (which I always thought was bizarre given what we saw with Eli here).

To answer the OP, I think the right answer was to pick Allen and pick Herbert in 2020. Let's hope Jones continues his improvement.
I agree context matters  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 12:48 pm : link
But I also don't think Jones has been especially good these four games. I thought he was downright poor against Denver and Atlanta and he left a lot of points on the field in Washington as Kurt Warner described.

We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.

When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.
Zeke…  
bw in dc : 10/9/2021 12:50 pm : link
King is reporting AFTER the draft. He isn’t giving out specific grades, photos of the draft board, details of potential trade calls, etc.

The process is over. So what exactly would Denver or any team be trying to hide? None of those players can be drafted again.

RE: I agree context matters  
BrettNYG10 : 10/9/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15403775 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But I also don't think Jones has been especially good these four games. I thought he was downright poor against Denver and Atlanta and he left a lot of points on the field in Washington as Kurt Warner described.

We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.

When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.


Where do you rank Jones' performance this year? I'm curious on your answer when isolating the WAS/NO games as well. Top-third/average/bottom-third?
RE: RE: I agree context matters  
Go Terps : 10/9/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15403778 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15403775 Go Terps said:


Quote:


But I also don't think Jones has been especially good these four games. I thought he was downright poor against Denver and Atlanta and he left a lot of points on the field in Washington as Kurt Warner described.

We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.

When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.



Where do you rank Jones' performance this year? I'm curious on your answer when isolating the WAS/NO games as well. Top-third/average/bottom-third?


I don't know. Not top third, certainly. I'm inclined to say bottom third based on the terrible performances in both home games, the 1-3 record, and the low PPG.

But hey to borrow a line from the guys arguing for him... Let's see how the season goes. They go 10-7 and make the playoffs I'll have zero argument and I'll have been dead wrong.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 10/9/2021 4:20 pm : link
Thanks, Terps. I agree. We saw Heinicke and Hurts torch ATL - yet we couldn't put up 20 points.

Jones needs to lead a top third offense before I start moving him up.
RE: Peter King  
santacruzom : 10/11/2021 3:28 pm : link
In comment 15403118 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is something we are all supposed to trust? Why is that? Do we only trust accounts from people that prove our stance?


I'd sure trust his take on the matter more than Gettleman's claims and justifications, that's for damn sure.
RE: RE: Peter King  
UConn4523 : 10/11/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15409055 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15403118 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is something we are all supposed to trust? Why is that? Do we only trust accounts from people that prove our stance?



I'd sure trust his take on the matter more than Gettleman's claims and justifications, that's for damn sure.


Same here, but insert any GM IMO. I don't really take anything they say as gospel.
What is this revisionist history now?  
Debaser : 10/12/2021 11:05 pm : link
We're pretending now that jones at 6 was not like bizarre and crazy and all the journalists were like "WTF?" And even an NFL executive was like "you don't do that" on camera.

It's kind of pathetic you need to validate jones by pretending another team would've picked him.
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