Remember the Jones draft pick was made when everyone was psyched that Josh Allen (DE) had fallen to us? I was psyched for Allen at the time. I'm personally glad to have Jones, I really like him. But Allen was the clear alternative (I don't think Jones would have lasted to 17 where D. Lawrence pick was made IMO). Anyway - what's your take now?
Definitely wanted Allen when he "dropped" to us
The talking heads and draftnik's were saying Jones was a late 1st/early 2nd round pick. I thought Jones would have lasted until 17 and we'd get both guys. But the comments and info leaked suggest that wouldn't have been the case. So Allen and Jones was my hope at the time, but in hindsight knowing it was Allen and Lawrence or gulp Drew Lock, I'm taking Jones/Dexter easy.
Oh and that is my opinion before they even take the field, forgetting everything they have done in the NFL. Though it would be the same factor it in.
Lol Doc so right!!!
I get Mara's attachment to Eli. I'm in the same boat. But I'm a fan, not the one signing the checks.
They very well could have Herbert now under that scenario.
They very well could have Herbert now under that scenario.
Herbert looks so damn good.
What a shock that you chime in....
It would take a big change in fortunes for it to end up being anything else.
Remember, after just 25/26 games and an injured wheel down the stretch
last year (which is so important to who DJ is as a QB), he proclaimed that DJ was “garbage.” Not, playing like garbage, simply garbage. Many of us were willing to see what this year brought before stating anything definitive. I always believed in DJ and felt he’d be a long term guy, but I know shit as it pertains to how this ultimately pkays out for DJ..
The times to draft a quarterback were 2018 or 2020. They reached for Jones, and unsurprisingly their record since they did that is 11-25. Horrible.
But Sunday vs the Saints was his best performance so far in his career. It was an exciting performance.
He did it with his arm more than his legs, which is huge for me.
He showed a lot of zip and authority on those midfield throws. I though he looked a lot sharper and more accurate in that range than I have seen him before.
The arm strength looks a little better on the midfield throws as well, he was throwing more ropes.
And placed the ball well to his playmakers, and he started force feeding the playmakers. which he must do.
I still do not see great anticipation. Maybe that will come. That would make this a very big leap.
And he had a lot of time. How does Jones handle pressure is very important. Because no matter how good your line is, you get pressure from the better teams and certainly in the playoffs.
But Sunday vs the Saints was his best performance so far in his career. It was an exciting performance.
He did it with his arm more than his legs, which is huge for me.
He showed a lot of zip and authority on those midfield throws. I though he looked a lot sharper and more accurate in that range than I have seen him before.
The arm strength looks a little better on the midfield throws as well, he was throwing more ropes.
And placed the ball well to his playmakers, and he started force feeding the playmakers. which he must do.
I still do not see great anticipation. Maybe that will come. That would make this a very big leap.
And he had a lot of time. How does Jones handle pressure is very important. Because no matter how good your line is, you get pressure from the better teams and certainly in the playoffs.
He’s finally got the tools around him and a functional OL..That is enormous for a QB..We saw what happened to Mahomes in the SB with a pathetic, makeshift OL..
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But Sunday vs the Saints was his best performance so far in his career. It was an exciting performance.
He did it with his arm more than his legs, which is huge for me.
He showed a lot of zip and authority on those midfield throws. I though he looked a lot sharper and more accurate in that range than I have seen him before.
The arm strength looks a little better on the midfield throws as well, he was throwing more ropes.
And placed the ball well to his playmakers, and he started force feeding the playmakers. which he must do.
I still do not see great anticipation. Maybe that will come. That would make this a very big leap.
And he had a lot of time. How does Jones handle pressure is very important. Because no matter how good your line is, you get pressure from the better teams and certainly in the playoffs.
He’s finally got the tools around him and a functional OL..That is enormous for a QB..We saw what happened to Mahomes in the SB with a pathetic, makeshift OL..
I don't think it's enough to say he has tools and more to work with so he will be great like Mahomes, or Wilson, or Stafford, or even as good as Cousins. He has to demonstrate so much more consistency than he has shown thus far. Plus anticipation and enduring pressure need to get better. We'll see.
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In comment 15402698 Producer said:
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But Sunday vs the Saints was his best performance so far in his career. It was an exciting performance.
He did it with his arm more than his legs, which is huge for me.
He showed a lot of zip and authority on those midfield throws. I though he looked a lot sharper and more accurate in that range than I have seen him before.
The arm strength looks a little better on the midfield throws as well, he was throwing more ropes.
And placed the ball well to his playmakers, and he started force feeding the playmakers. which he must do.
I still do not see great anticipation. Maybe that will come. That would make this a very big leap.
And he had a lot of time. How does Jones handle pressure is very important. Because no matter how good your line is, you get pressure from the better teams and certainly in the playoffs.
He’s finally got the tools around him and a functional OL..That is enormous for a QB..We saw what happened to Mahomes in the SB with a pathetic, makeshift OL..
I don't think it's enough to say he has tools and more to work with so he will be great like Mahomes, or Wilson, or Stafford, or even as good as Cousins. He has to demonstrate so much more consistency than he has shown thus far. Plus anticipation and enduring pressure need to get better. We'll see.
Agreed. I only brought up Mahomes in the context of even the great ones struggle without an OL and yes, surrounding talent to lean on
No. It's basically saying it was a stupid allocation of resources. I said it at the time when they picked him.
Why would I hate Jones? He seems like a good guy. He plays hard. He runs well. But I think he's a backup level quarterback. I think he's at or probably below the Mariota/Trubisky level. Those guys are backups.
I don't hate Jones. I hate watching shitty losing football.
If you can't *see* what makes Stafford so special, I don't think anything I have to say will help you. He has phenomenal arm talent and very few can match him.
But he isn't special.
As Greg Cosell says, and he gushes over Stafford at every chance, Stafford has traits you can't teach and can't develop. Jones will never be that kind of thrower. Period. Jones has to produce other ways.
Don't waste your time with these guys. He literally said he's below Mariota, a guy who hasn't done a single worthwhile thkng in two years and was a bust in Tennessee.
And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?
This place makes you think there's an alternate universe sometimes.
And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?
This place makes you think there's an alternate universe sometimes.
By that metric Matthew Stafford isn’t even on Marcus Mariota’s level. Stafford was 74-90-1 in Detroit and never won a playoff game
Jesus dude. Are you really this dense? Quarterbacks early in their career rarely have good records - if you’re taken in the top 10 your team typically suck at first.
Because you have this vision of the Giants moving on from all of their first round picks the last 3 years, because you’ve already come to the conclusion that they all suck (which you are the only person on planet earth who thinks this to be true) - and the Giants aren’t going to do what you want - you come on here and still say things like Jones sucks, which all the recent evidence is showing that he’s coming around and you simply hate that fact.
Why do so many care about his dipshit opinion?
GO NYG!
Root for all the draft picks and maybe we beat the cowboys not just once but twice this year,,,same for Philly
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was waiting on QB until 2020. Let Eli finish 2019 regardless and then make the call on Shurmur & Gettleman as a package deal after the season.
They very well could have Herbert now under that scenario.
Herbert looks so damn good.
Go watch the SD v Dallas game. That will temper your enthusiasm.
And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?
This place makes you think there's an alternate universe sometimes.
Dak 5-13 against teams over .500 , so your argument is weak. DJ never has had the support but you refuse to accept that because you don’t like the pick.
You do realize Jefferson dropped a sure TD right before Stafford threw the bad pick?
And so what if Stafford had a bad half? He more than righted the ship in the second half and ended up with a solid 64 QBR and an excellent 9.9 YPA.
Are you going to tell me, btw, that you would take Jones over Stafford as your QB?
Not all QBs, even first round ones, have the perfect demeanor to just take over the reigns immediately for a franchise and hold up under the immense pressure and expectations in that scenario. New York no less.
Jones was able to work on his development that summer, play a lot that preseason, and gain some confidence. And it played out early that Manning wasn't leading that team anywhere, so at that point that had seen enough to turn to Jones. And now at least he had some QB play under his belt and some of the pressure/expectations had been lowered. At least that season.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
I'd rather take a shot at the QB than the DE and if year 3 continues for Jones than its likely going to be a better pick than taking Allen.
Such a dumb argument. There was plenty of chatter of multiple teams being interested in Jones. Of course you want definitive proof of something that historically never happens, I wonder why...
Something you are defining as a "panic" is actually pretty normal. Player X isn't predicted to last until Pick X so you take your guy when available. Giants get knocked for that, other teams don't. Its weird.
Gettleman always sounded very defensive post-draft in explaining that he knew Jones was going to be picked by other teams, but they may have been just rumors.
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
Gettleman always sounded very defensive post-draft in explaining that he knew Jones was going to be picked by other teams, but they may have been just rumors.
It was not a rumor - Broncos and Dolphins would have taken Jones.
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at #17. He fell victim to rumors and pressures that Jones might go earlier than that so he picked him at #6, and even said himself it was a difficult decision to pass on the defensive player, ER Josh Allen. So much that he tried to trade up from #17 to still get Allen but he was already gone.
Gettleman always sounded very defensive post-draft in explaining that he knew Jones was going to be picked by other teams, but they may have been just rumors.
It was not a rumor - Broncos and Dolphins would have taken Jones.
It's an unsubstantiated rumor.
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at #17. He fell victim to rumors and pressures that Jones might go earlier than that so he picked him at #6, and even said himself it was a difficult decision to pass on the defensive player, ER Josh Allen. So much that he tried to trade up from #17 to still get Allen but he was already gone.
Gettleman always sounded very defensive post-draft in explaining that he knew Jones was going to be picked by other teams, but they may have been just rumors.
It was not a rumor - Broncos and Dolphins would have taken Jones.
Broncos were interested in Lock and Jones but never that early. They took Lock in Rd 2 where they figured both would go per reports.
Not sure about Miami but where has that been verified?
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In comment 15402853 Beer Man said:
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
We could all debate the statement that it was a panic pick; I believe DJ became DG's target once Herbert choose to return to Oregon for his Senior season. And where you can argue that there there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by another team, there was also NO EVIDENCE to the contrary (unless you have asshat info on the draft boards of the other teams, if so please share). Either way it should not have been a factor, because you go for your guy if he is there, regardless of who you believe other teams may be selecting between your picks.
EXACTLY!
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
You sir are so full of crap it is beyond explanation. It is fairly well known that Denver and Miami wanted Jones. You can spin it any way you want, you can play words, you can twist phrases. Yeah, you say there is no EVIDENCE - which is true because there is never evidence that any team will ever admit to wanting a player already taken, but everyone knew that Denver absolutely wanted him and IIRC Miami did in some way or fashion say he would have been taken.
Go ahead, spin words. Just disingenuous Pablum.
I can admit that I haven't seen him play all that much.
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In comment 15402853 Beer Man said:
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
You sir are so full of crap it is beyond explanation. It is fairly well known that Denver and Miami wanted Jones. You can spin it any way you want, you can play words, you can twist phrases. Yeah, you say there is no EVIDENCE - which is true because there is never evidence that any team will ever admit to wanting a player already taken, but everyone knew that Denver absolutely wanted him and IIRC Miami did in some way or fashion say he would have been taken.
Go ahead, spin words. Just disingenuous Pablum.
Not everybody is Urban Meyer leaking out what type of player he wants to run his scheme
The thread is about Allen and other than year 1 Allen has been a JAG. I’m glad we panicked and reached on the QB.
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
Right. We should have taken Josh Rosen like you wanted.
Giants fans love to bitch moan and complain right now - I'm guilty of that to a degree...but it could be worse...
the Jags suck...again...hopefully Meyer doesn't ruin Lawrence's career before it gets a chance to get going.
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Since you can’t equate anything he does as special pretend like it is on every one else to figure it out for you. Just as you can not see what can make Jones special.
But he isn't special.
GT - Always interesting to me where you fall out on this. Back when we drafted Jones, you were pretty complimentary of him as a player (not the pick). I know - you wanted Barkley in the first and Jackson in the 2nd.
You used to say things like this - seeing a potential Brees/Brady in DJ:
Another word on Darnold/Jones - Darnold started 13 games his rookie year on a very poor offensive team...poorer than what the Giants have in 2019. If Darnold can start 13 games as a rookie there is no reason Jones (a technically more refined player surrounded by better players) can't do the same.
So, what changed? If anything, Jones has progressed and developed further since then? Seriously curious.
They both seem to be looking to prove things in 2021.
Huh? That’s your new hill?
It’s 3 years ago. Lol. Money! Money!!!
This week he's going against a better team than last week on the road again. The only chance the Giants will have this week is match TDs with Dallas. I doubt they can win without scoring 30 points.
I hope Jones continues to play well. I still don't think he has the instincts and the feel to be an elite NFL QB but if he continues to play well all season and the Giants don't have to replace him, as long as they can sign him for a reasonable rate, that's the best case scenario.
I mean how else would my feeble mind be able to understand that Daniel Jones doesn't have the instincts and the feel to be an elite NFL QB... or that our GM picked him in a complete panic after being duped by other teams GMs?
lol
Such a dumb argument. There was plenty of chatter of multiple teams being interested in Jones. Of course you want definitive proof of something that historically never happens, I wonder why...
Something you are defining as a "panic" is actually pretty normal. Player X isn't predicted to last until Pick X so you take your guy when available. Giants get knocked for that, other teams don't. Its weird.
But "chatter", which there was some, is much different than fact. So let's walk down memory lane. Here is Gettleman's direct quote...
With the way GMs keep information close to the vest, especially leading into a draft, do you really buy this from Gettleman? Short of having moles or listening devices at other Centrals, where does he get these "facts"? Serious question, btw...
Again, I think this all points to Gettleman misreading the market (converting chatter to fact), feeling he had to fill a critical need, and he panicking by taking Jones too early.
And it's very well documented that neither Denver or WFT wanted Jones. Denver had Lock as their #1 QB and WFT had Haskins #1 (based on Snyder knowing Haskins and his family since Snyder's son played high school football with Haskins at the Potomac School).
I don't know if Miami was that hot on Jones. That is very speculative. I do know they traded a second rounder the next day for Rosen. Was the because they missed on Jones? Or did they have Rosen as a target all along since Arizona let the league know they were taking Murray and were willing to trade Rosen...
Right. We should have taken Josh Rosen like you wanted.
I did like Rosen - true. But I soured on his medical issues with his concussion and shoulder problems...
You sir are so full of crap it is beyond explanation. It is fairly well known that Denver and Miami wanted Jones. You can spin it any way you want, you can play words, you can twist phrases. Yeah, you say there is no EVIDENCE - which is true because there is never evidence that any team will ever admit to wanting a player already taken, but everyone knew that Denver absolutely wanted him and IIRC Miami did in some way or fashion say he would have been taken.
Go ahead, spin words. Just disingenuous Pablum.
It's fairly well known? Oh, really...
So you and other continue to dispute reports like the link below. Or Peter King's reports, who was actually in the Denver War Room, and he has said unequivocally that Denver wanted Lock.
I think Miami may have wanted Jones. But it's soft speculation...
Broncos Wanted Lock - ( New Window )
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Right. We should have taken Josh Rosen like you wanted.
I did like Rosen - true. But I soured on his medical issues with his concussion and shoulder problems...
And that's fair.
Just like Terps was hesitant about Jackson when he found out Jackson's mother was his agent plus a bunch of other reports were coming out on him.
My point is that teams evaluate players and do their best based on specific criteria that's important to them, but in the end it's a crapshoot. No one knows how it's really going to turn out and that's why something like 50% of QB's drafted (or more) are busts. That doesn't make drafting DJ a bad pick. In fact, in the all important Year 3, signs are very much trending upward in terms of his progress. He may yet turn out to be not just an okay or good pick but a great one.
And WFT coaches wanted DJ the owner wanted Haskins. This was reported by their insider who has a great pulse on the organization. We never will know who wins that argument because it’s academic now. Snyder hasn’t really involved himself in football decisions in recent years so who knows.
And honestly who gives a shit at this point. DJ can ball and the most important thing is the year over year growth.
Darnold looks like the same QB his sophomore year ar USC, he just plays for a more functional offense and great OC now.
As for Gettleman's quote, you can take it either way. GM's don't typically volunteer inside information that I can recall, but that does not mean it is not true. It really comes down to wanting to believe Gettleman or not. For some, believing Gettleman sinks their argument, for others, dismissing Gettleman's quote sinks their argument.
This is also what makes it sound like you are ok with (I won't say rooting) Jones failing, if that's what ends up happening. It validates your crusade.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/29/nfl-draft-fmia-peter-king/
Within the article:
Gettleman told me he “knows for a fact” there were two teams that wanted Jones between six and 17. I could not find them, though I certainly can’t say with certainty that two do not exist. Either way, Gettleman believed it was not a risk worth taking. And so instead of having some percentage of a chance to get Allen at six and Jones at 17 (or earlier in a trade-up), the Giants got Jones at six and run-stuffing defensive tackle Dexter Lawrence at 17. Finding a run-stuffer, obviously, is easier than finding a pass-rusher. So we’ll see how it works out.
But let’s go through the exercise and see about the two teams and Jones, starting with Jacksonville at seven. No; just signed Nick Foles. Detroit; highly unlikely with Matthew Stafford in-house. Buffalo; no, Josh Allen (the Wyoming QB) just drafted last year. Denver at 10: I was there, and Broncos had Drew Lock number one on their QB board. Bengals at 11; doubtful but don’t know for sure. Green Bay at 12; highly unlikely. Miami at 13; unknown. Atlanta at 14; no way. Washington at 15 seemed locked in on Dwayne Haskins. Carolina at 16; highly unlikely. So Miami, maybe. I can’t find another one that appears likely to have had Jones in the crosshairs, though that doesn’t mean it was not so.
anyone can believe this or not, like everyone else im just an asshole on a message board, but Denver was going to take Jones if the NYG didn't. that's straight from someone directly involved with denver.
or you can believe that they loved lock so much they traded down after the NYG pick and still passed over him until the 2nd round and then gave up on him almost instantly.
It was reported on draft day there was a battle between the coaches and FO for Jones vs Haskins.
Who gives a shit regardless, you have a convinction on the QB you take him in the first round so you have the very important fifth year option. If the Broncos like Lock so much they would have done what Ravens did. It’s all horseshit damage control and they used their local media guys to save face after the draft.
anyone can believe this or not, like everyone else im just an asshole on a message board, but Denver was going to take Jones if the NYG didn't. that's straight from someone directly involved with denver.
or you can believe that they loved lock so much they traded down after the NYG pick and still passed over him until the 2nd round and then gave up on him almost instantly.
Read what I linked above, Denver was not taking Jones. At least not in round one.
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Are you watching the game tonight? If Jones had as brutal as a first half as Stafford he would be blasted on this board. Stanford missed three wide open Wrs, and had one of the most horrible looking picks. The guy is a career loser as well, what has he ever done to be considered elite?
You do realize Jefferson dropped a sure TD right before Stafford threw the bad pick?
And so what if Stafford had a bad half? He more than righted the ship in the second half and ended up with a solid 64 QBR and an excellent 9.9 YPA.
Are you going to tell me, btw, that you would take Jones over Stafford as your QB?
Actually yes at this point I would take Jones over Stafford. Jones has the potential to be a good winning QB. Stafford has never been able to elevate his team despite having some of the best WRs in the game. If I am the Rams I want Stafford, but we aren't the Rams bro hahaha. Stafford has never been able to put a team on his back and carry it and we aren't good enough to plug him in and play well enough for us to win.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/29/nfl-draft-fmia-peter-king/
Within the article:
Gettleman told me he “knows for a fact” there were two teams that wanted Jones between six and 17. I could not find them, though I certainly can’t say with certainty that two do not exist. Either way, Gettleman believed it was not a risk worth taking. And so instead of having some percentage of a chance to get Allen at six and Jones at 17 (or earlier in a trade-up), the Giants got Jones at six and run-stuffing defensive tackle Dexter Lawrence at 17. Finding a run-stuffer, obviously, is easier than finding a pass-rusher. So we’ll see how it works out.
But let’s go through the exercise and see about the two teams and Jones, starting with Jacksonville at seven. No; just signed Nick Foles. Detroit; highly unlikely with Matthew Stafford in-house. Buffalo; no, Josh Allen (the Wyoming QB) just drafted last year. Denver at 10: I was there, and Broncos had Drew Lock number one on their QB board. Bengals at 11; doubtful but don’t know for sure. Green Bay at 12; highly unlikely. Miami at 13; unknown. Atlanta at 14; no way. Washington at 15 seemed locked in on Dwayne Haskins. Carolina at 16; highly unlikely. So Miami, maybe. I can’t find another one that appears likely to have had Jones in the crosshairs, though that doesn’t mean it was not so.
King also didn't think they weren't going to take Lock despite him being "the #1 qb on their board" because the Broncos felt so good about having 34 year old Joe Flacco. Does that seem logical at all?
publicly every team says every player they select was the #1 player on their board after the fact.
Not sure why this continues to be debated here either. Jones was the Giant pick. He may have gone earlier than the Giants wanted but and he is finally playing really well now which is exactly what is most important.
This. Always this. Denver traded down after Jones came off the board. If they truly believed in Lock, they would have taken him at their pick or at least their trade down pick in the 1st. Nope. They instead thought so highly of him they took him in the 2nd round after every other team had a chance at him. The proof is in the pudding.
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You sir are so full of crap it is beyond explanation. It is fairly well known that Denver and Miami wanted Jones. You can spin it any way you want, you can play words, you can twist phrases. Yeah, you say there is no EVIDENCE - which is true because there is never evidence that any team will ever admit to wanting a player already taken, but everyone knew that Denver absolutely wanted him and IIRC Miami did in some way or fashion say he would have been taken.
Go ahead, spin words. Just disingenuous Pablum.
It's fairly well known? Oh, really...
So you and other continue to dispute reports like the link below. Or Peter King's reports, who was actually in the Denver War Room, and he has said unequivocally that Denver wanted Lock.
I think Miami may have wanted Jones. But it's soft speculation...
Broncos Wanted Lock - ( New Window )
Denver said they didn't want Jones and wanted Lock, but come on. They needed a QB bad and passed on all QBs and ended up drafting Lock. Did we really expect them to say we wanted Jones, but he was off the board so we got stuck with Lock in the 2nd round.
Doesn't matter anyways as it was the Bengals that wanted Jones from what I remember and were upset he was drafted. Worked out for them as they got Burrow so sometimes it is the player you don't get.
Do i know for a fact multiple teams were in play for Jones between 6-17? No. Do i think that? Yes. Does it matter? No.
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In comment 15402911 NYGgolfer said:
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at #17. He fell victim to rumors and pressures that Jones might go earlier than that so he picked him at #6, and even said himself it was a difficult decision to pass on the defensive player, ER Josh Allen. So much that he tried to trade up from #17 to still get Allen but he was already gone.
Gettleman always sounded very defensive post-draft in explaining that he knew Jones was going to be picked by other teams, but they may have been just rumors.
It was not a rumor - Broncos and Dolphins would have taken Jones.
It's an unsubstantiated rumor.
I get it, people don't believe what they are not pricy to seeing with their own two eyes. It is what it is.
Do i know for a fact multiple teams were in play for Jones between 6-17? No. Do i think that? Yes. Does it matter? No.
Exactly right. It's so odd that even when picks seemingly work out some still search for a reason they were still a mistake. I forget the exact number but I believe the majority of first round qbs are flat out busts. Like Haskins. And Rosen. And Tua looks like he may be. Lock wasn't picked in the first round obviously but he looks like a flat out bust. The fact that any QB (Jones included) isn't that is already beating the odds.
Do i know for a fact multiple teams were in play for Jones between 6-17? No. Do i think that? Yes. Does it matter? No.
King was in their draft room and wrote the article going thru it all. Do you have accounts from anyone disputing his comments? Trust whomever you want, but King reported his facts and they are posted above.
By the way, its not like Denver has been great at drafting QBs so this rumor they wanted Jones so badly shouldn't give anybody any comfort.
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Mariota has a 29-32 record as a starter and has won a playoff game. Jones has a 9-21 record and only one of those wins (over the 2-1 Saints) was against a team over .500.
And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?
This place makes you think there's an alternate universe sometimes.
By that metric Matthew Stafford isn’t even on Marcus Mariota’s level. Stafford was 74-90-1 in Detroit and never won a playoff game
Terps likes to forget it's a team game..
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if your QB is on the board when your pick is up, then you take that QB without hesitation. We can all argue whether or not DJ should have been their QB of choice, but the fact that he was means DG made the right choice grabbing him when he did. We should know by years end if DJ was the right QB.
I don't think that accurately reflects what happened.
Jones was a panic pick. Gettleman admitted as much. He thought that at least two teams were going to take Jones before our next first round pick at #17. So he forced the pick on Jones in order to fill a need. And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
There is no evidence that he would not have been taken.
NONE.
And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
So because you - an average fucking fan, with no insight at all with what happens in the war room - haven't seen any "evidence", there's no way it's true, huh?
LOL - what a pathetic take...
Terps is famous for moving the goalposts, then trying to claim he didn't do just that...
This is also what makes it sound like you are ok with (I won't say rooting) Jones failing, if that's what ends up happening. It validates your crusade.
Look, I'm not a member of the BBI Scorekeeping Club. I have no interest being more right than others. I just try to evaluate situations/players and offer commentary on areas I find interesting. And when our GM comes out so forcefully that he absolutely knew information that drove a major decision, I find that completely fascinating.
I do want Jones to succeed despite your interpretation. But I am certainly looking ahead if he doesn't prove he's the solution.
It is not unreasonable at all to believe Jones still has potential growth in his game when you consider the circumstances of his career so far.
Put the brakes on.
Andrew Thomas appears to be ascending.
Toney is improving.
Golloday is finding some chemistry.
Watch the season.
Accept that you are not an expert.
anyone can believe this or not, like everyone else im just an asshole on a message board, but Denver was going to take Jones if the NYG didn't. that's straight from someone directly involved with denver.
or you can believe that they loved lock so much they traded down after the NYG pick and still passed over him until the 2nd round and then gave up on him almost instantly.
I know you and I have mixed it up on this before so I won't re-open this. We are each dug in. But I would love to know how you think you know. I have a few friends in the sports media business and they have not heard your information.
Yes, I did like Finley. And that looks like a miss on my part.
The only evidence to support Either sign comes from the Giants general manager.
So you can believe him or not... If you don't you have absolutely no credible reason not to believe him other than he has the history of being quite talkative.
The team was planning on taking a particular quarterback...
... And they did.
Calling it a panic move is completely unfounded in every possible way. They took the guy they planned on taking.
I'm not sure "panic move" means what some people think it means.
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is something we are all supposed to trust? Why is that? Do we only trust accounts from people that prove our stance?
Do i know for a fact multiple teams were in play for Jones between 6-17? No. Do i think that? Yes. Does it matter? No.
King was in their draft room and wrote the article going thru it all. Do you have accounts from anyone disputing his comments? Trust whomever you want, but King reported his facts and they are posted above.
By the way, its not like Denver has been great at drafting QBs so this rumor they wanted Jones so badly shouldn't give anybody any comfort.
what comfort does anyone need? Jones the draft pick has worked out so far. On the field he is clearly the 2nd best QB from that draft and Haskins/Lock so far look like total busts. That's not to say he's proven he's a franchise QB yet (he hasn't) but as far as that draft he was the right pick.
the only people who seem to need comfort are those who are still looking for any validation they can find that the Jones pick was wrong because otherwise their opinions are wrong.
So they cling to a completely unprovable assertion that they could have gotten him later (which there is 0 way to prove and more evidence against that for).
or other silly arguments like they shouldn't have drafted him with Eli still under contract (which is about as intelligent as saying the chiefs shouldn't have picked mahomes because they still had Alex Smith or the Ravens shouldn't have taken Lamar with Flacco or the 49ers shouldn't have taken Lance with Garappolo).
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And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
So because you - an average fucking fan, with no insight at all with what happens in the war room - haven't seen any "evidence", there's no way it's true, huh?
LOL - what a pathetic take...
You seem like a reasonably smart guy. Tell me, and I'm asking this straight up, how the hell do you think Gettleman knew for a fact two other teams were going to take Jones before #17? Do you actually buy that?
I guess where I am going with this is here - Gettleman should have just stood up and said DJ was his guy and the organization is ecstatic (or words to that effect). And leave it at that.
Instead, he stands ups, pulls this CYA move to deal with the blowback, and adds another chapter to his legacy of idiocy...
I don't believe King and I have no way to prove that I am right nor do I need to.
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and said there was no difference between him and jones?
anyone can believe this or not, like everyone else im just an asshole on a message board, but Denver was going to take Jones if the NYG didn't. that's straight from someone directly involved with denver.
or you can believe that they loved lock so much they traded down after the NYG pick and still passed over him until the 2nd round and then gave up on him almost instantly.
I know you and I have mixed it up on this before so I won't re-open this. We are each dug in. But I would love to know how you think you know. I have a few friends in the sports media business and they have not heard your information.
Yes, I did like Finley. And that looks like a miss on my part.
I think I know because of a firsthand account from someone involved in the decision and whose expected motivation would be to say the opposite because they are still in the organization. Not a random person from the media or a friend of a friend's cousin who was cutting the grass at the mizzou pro day.
But my retort is - what exactly does him speaking better/differently change on the field? Isn't that what matters? Jones would be the guy either way and our record would be the same.
But my retort is - what exactly does him speaking better/differently change on the field? Isn't that what matters? Jones would be the guy either way and our record would be the same.
anything to distract from the fact that the NYG scouts were right about Jones being the 2nd best QB in the 2019 draft and worthy of that selection relative to the choices they passed on the prior year (Darnold, Rosen, Allen).
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In comment 15402902 bw in dc said:
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And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
So because you - an average fucking fan, with no insight at all with what happens in the war room - haven't seen any "evidence", there's no way it's true, huh?
LOL - what a pathetic take...
You seem like a reasonably smart guy. Tell me, and I'm asking this straight up, how the hell do you think Gettleman knew for a fact two other teams were going to take Jones before #17? Do you actually buy that?
I guess where I am going with this is here - Gettleman should have just stood up and said DJ was his guy and the organization is ecstatic (or words to that effect). And leave it at that.
Instead, he stands ups, pulls this CYA move to deal with the blowback, and adds another chapter to his legacy of idiocy...
You should scroll up to Mort Christensons 11:36 post. You may not be familiar with the poster, but I think it’s fair to say he’s a hell of a lot more in tune with what’s going on in the league than you are…
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In comment 15403118 UConn4523 said:
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is something we are all supposed to trust? Why is that? Do we only trust accounts from people that prove our stance?
Do i know for a fact multiple teams were in play for Jones between 6-17? No. Do i think that? Yes. Does it matter? No.
King was in their draft room and wrote the article going thru it all. Do you have accounts from anyone disputing his comments? Trust whomever you want, but King reported his facts and they are posted above.
By the way, its not like Denver has been great at drafting QBs so this rumor they wanted Jones so badly shouldn't give anybody any comfort.
what comfort does anyone need? Jones the draft pick has worked out so far. On the field he is clearly the 2nd best QB from that draft and Haskins/Lock so far look like total busts. That's not to say he's proven he's a franchise QB yet (he hasn't) but as far as that draft he was the right pick.
the only people who seem to need comfort are those who are still looking for any validation they can find that the Jones pick was wrong because otherwise their opinions are wrong.
So they cling to a completely unprovable assertion that they could have gotten him later (which there is 0 way to prove and more evidence against that for).
or other silly arguments like they shouldn't have drafted him with Eli still under contract (which is about as intelligent as saying the chiefs shouldn't have picked mahomes because they still had Alex Smith or the Ravens shouldn't have taken Lamar with Flacco or the 49ers shouldn't have taken Lance with Garappolo).
Not really, posters look for comfort all the time to substantiate their opinions or support their team. Very common. Digging in on rumor that Denver wanted Jones doesn't make him better or worse in 2021 for us but somehow it keeps coming up on the site.
As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.
I don't believe King and I have no way to prove that I am right nor do I need to.
It isn't strange.
Peter King has been invited to several team's war rooms over the years and has done the same thing.
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In comment 15403139 speedywheels said:
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In comment 15402902 bw in dc said:
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And despite what a few Asshat-wannabees say here at BBI to justify the move, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jones would have been taken by any of those team before #17.
NONE.
So because you - an average fucking fan, with no insight at all with what happens in the war room - haven't seen any "evidence", there's no way it's true, huh?
LOL - what a pathetic take...
You seem like a reasonably smart guy. Tell me, and I'm asking this straight up, how the hell do you think Gettleman knew for a fact two other teams were going to take Jones before #17? Do you actually buy that?
I guess where I am going with this is here - Gettleman should have just stood up and said DJ was his guy and the organization is ecstatic (or words to that effect). And leave it at that.
Instead, he stands ups, pulls this CYA move to deal with the blowback, and adds another chapter to his legacy of idiocy...
You should scroll up to Mort Christensons 11:36 post. You may not be familiar with the poster, but I think it’s fair to say he’s a hell of a lot more in tune with what’s going on in the league than you are…
Sorry, 11:53 post…
As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.
it's not the most important thing to those who continue to stay dug in and bring up why they think the pick was a mistake. im not accusing you of this but rather the group that recirculates the same bs in endless threads as they've done on this one.
in response to the OP the only logical answer is that in hindsight it does seem like the right call to have taken Jones > Allen. No?
But my retort is - what exactly does him speaking better/differently change on the field? Isn't that what matters? Jones would be the guy either way and our record would be the same.
To me, this is more of a macro study and how DG goes about making decisions to build the football team. So I wouldn't call it a best management practice to make a decision based on a rumor or speculation. Especially when picking a QB...
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and reporting back their draft board is strange. I don't know why Denver would be comfortable him doing that, and I can't discount that they asked him to say what he did. We have many on BBI saying that our beats just push the Giants agenda - is that a Giants only thing?
I don't believe King and I have no way to prove that I am right nor do I need to.
It isn't strange.
Peter King has been invited to several team's war rooms over the years and has done the same thing.
That’s because he puts out whatever the teams want to after the draft. He doesn’t give a shit anymore, guy is just drinking coffee and collecting paychecks. Teams aren’t inviting guys into the war room unless they put out what they want after the draft. He’s a team mouthpiece these days.
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As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.
it's not the most important thing to those who continue to stay dug in and bring up why they think the pick was a mistake. im not accusing you of this but rather the group that recirculates the same bs in endless threads as they've done on this one.
in response to the OP the only logical answer is that in hindsight it does seem like the right call to have taken Jones > Allen. No?
Yeah, I don't know if Jones was mistake pick and I hope he wasn't. He sure is playing well now.
But he was indeed early and earlier than even the Giants wanted otherwise Gettleman wouldn't have agonized not picking Josh Allen like he said. I think he did "panic" somewhat with all that was going on, but it wasn't that they didn't like him a lot and he was going to be the pick at #17 anyway so panic is somewhat overblown, but not completely unfair.
As to other point, Jones was the right pick if he can make the Giants a winning team. Otherwise I would rather have Allen and find another QB in another year.
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all you are describing is optics. Gettelman isn't good at that, I think we can all agree on that. Marketing isn't for him. It wasn't for Reese either who was a robot, or a mute.
But my retort is - what exactly does him speaking better/differently change on the field? Isn't that what matters? Jones would be the guy either way and our record would be the same.
To me, this is more of a macro study and how DG goes about making decisions to build the football team. So I wouldn't call it a best management practice to make a decision based on a rumor or speculation. Especially when picking a QB...
lol so you don't like the way you think he made the decision even though the decision itself (Jones > Allen/Haskins/Lock) turned out to be correct?
You should scroll up to Mort Christensons 11:36 post. You may not be familiar with the poster, but I think it’s fair to say he’s a hell of a lot more in tune with what’s going on in the league than you are…
Sorry, 11:53 post…
Okay. But I don't know who that is and why I should buy what he's selling.
chick310 posted some good information. King has been in many draft rooms over his career. GMs/Teams trust him. He's been a league reporter for 35+ years. He's tuned in.
So when he was actually in the Denver war room, and details the decision making process, it's pretty funny how many posters mock him as not telling the truth. Like he and Elway conspired together - like a spy novel - to throw everyone off the scent how much Elway loved and adored Jones.
I don't know how anyone could read that article of all the things Peter King had to say about that 2019 draft and conclude it isn't at least decent proof about Denver/Jones versus a defensive soundbite from Gettleman. Look at all the details King discusses as fact and isn't just hypothesizing.
That is just digging in.
To me, this is more of a macro study and how DG goes about making decisions to build the football team. So I wouldn't call it a best management practice to make a decision based on a rumor or speculation. Especially when picking a QB...
lol so you don't like the way you think he made the decision even though the decision itself (Jones > Allen/Haskins/Lock) turned out to be correct?
We're 1-3 so far this year. And I'm sure you can do quick math to figure out the team's record with Jones at QB and since DG arrived.
So this seems a bit premature to take a victory lap on Jones.
But, yes, he is "better" than Haskins and Lock.
We're 1-3 so far this year. And I'm sure you can do quick math to figure out the team's record with Jones at QB and since DG arrived.
So this seems a bit premature to take a victory lap on Jones.
But, yes, he is "better" than Haskins and Lock.
the only victory lap right now is that 2.25 seasons in it looks like they correctly selected the best QB available in 2019.
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We're 1-3 so far this year. And I'm sure you can do quick math to figure out the team's record with Jones at QB and since DG arrived.
So this seems a bit premature to take a victory lap on Jones.
But, yes, he is "better" than Haskins and Lock.
the only victory lap right now is that 2.25 seasons in it looks like they correctly selected the best QB available in 2019.
I'm assuming you mean outside of Murray...
Actually yes at this point I would take Jones over Stafford. Jones has the potential to be a good winning QB. Stafford has never been able to elevate his team despite having some of the best WRs in the game. If I am the Rams I want Stafford, but we aren't the Rams bro hahaha. Stafford has never been able to put a team on his back and carry it and we aren't good enough to plug him in and play well enough for us to win.
Archie Manning was a very good NFL QB who was stuck in professional football purgatory in New Orleans in the '70s. Stafford played in Detroit - another football purgatory. I would think that variable should be factored into your analysis.
Stafford did lead that black hole, however, to four winning seasons and three playoff appearances. So I think that gives him much more credibility than you are acknowledging.
He's a special talent. A great thrower who can put the anywhere and throw receivers open. Jones is a better runner compared to Stafford - that's it.
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To me, this is more of a macro study and how DG goes about making decisions to build the football team. So I wouldn't call it a best management practice to make a decision based on a rumor or speculation. Especially when picking a QB...
lol so you don't like the way you think he made the decision even though the decision itself (Jones > Allen/Haskins/Lock) turned out to be correct?
We're 1-3 so far this year. And I'm sure you can do quick math to figure out the team's record with Jones at QB and since DG arrived.
So this seems a bit premature to take a victory lap on Jones.
But, yes, he is "better" than Haskins and Lock.
If it was any other team, you’d say 1-3 with an asterisk
There is less evidence of that being true than there is of other teams being interested in Daniel Jones.
The argument has absolutely no legs whatsoever.
There really isn't an argument to be made.
Let’s move on from this now?
Bingo!
Gettleman wanted to pick him at #17 but felt pressured to do it earlier otherwise he "guaranteed" everyone Jones would have been gone by #17.
It was a really well thought out and executed evaluation process.
Sam Bradford - 1
Jameis Winston - 1
Robert Griffin III - 2
Blaine Gabbert - 10
Ryan Tannehill - 8
Marcus Mariota - 2
Josh Rosen - 10
Blake Bortles - 3
Carson Wentz - 2
Jared Goff - 1
Jake Locker - 8
Mitchell Trubisky - 2
that doesn't include the rest of the 1st rounders above the top 10. My point is being a GM doesn't make someone a better talent evaluator that a lot of fans who post here. There's a pretty good case for the opposite.
It's ok to sit back and just analyze how he plays, without worrying whether you were right or wrong about the pick. Really, it's ok. You can wait until after Week 18. (Feels very weird to say Week 18 btw.)
Sam Bradford - 1
Jameis Winston - 1
Robert Griffin III - 2
Blaine Gabbert - 10
Ryan Tannehill - 8
Marcus Mariota - 2
Josh Rosen - 10
Blake Bortles - 3
Carson Wentz - 2
Jared Goff - 1
Jake Locker - 8
Mitchell Trubisky - 2
that doesn't include the rest of the 1st rounders above the top 10. My point is being a GM doesn't make someone a better talent evaluator that a lot of fans who post here. There's a pretty good case for the opposite.
Most nerdy stuff I've read indicates that the draft is a total crapshoot and that maybe there are a few GMs who are a little bit better at it.
Gettleman wanted to pick him at #17 but felt pressured to do it earlier otherwise he "guaranteed" everyone Jones would have been gone by #17.
This is how I piece it together as well. I would bet Jones was lower on their board than #6. But the pressure of replacing Eli, drafting a franchise QB (for DG), and then the rumors that surfaced very likely caused Gettleman to change his board mid-draft.
It was a really well thought out and executed evaluation process.
I think all of that applies at #17, too. But when CIA Dave got a hold of these "facts" about other teams going after Jones, the panic button was pushed.
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speculation. The notion is he was picked as early as he was by the Giants at #6 because of rumors and speculation.
Gettleman wanted to pick him at #17 but felt pressured to do it earlier otherwise he "guaranteed" everyone Jones would have been gone by #17.
This is how I piece it together as well. I would bet Jones was lower on their board than #6. But the pressure of replacing Eli, drafting a franchise QB (for DG), and then the rumors that surfaced very likely caused Gettleman to change his board mid-draft.
I have come to dislike Gettelman a lot but this analysis doesn't pass muster to me. Does Gettelman seem like the type to panic? Or rather like the guy who falls in love with a player beforehand and decides to draft him even if it's "too early?"
This is how I piece it together as well. I would bet Jones was lower on their board than #6. But the pressure of replacing Eli, drafting a franchise QB (for DG), and then the rumors that surfaced very likely caused Gettleman to change his board mid-draft.
I have come to dislike Gettelman a lot but this analysis doesn't pass muster to me. Does Gettelman seem like the type to panic? Or rather like the guy who falls in love with a player beforehand and decides to draft him even if it's "too early?"
I contend both can be true.
There is less evidence of that being true than there is of other teams being interested in Daniel Jones.
The argument has absolutely no legs whatsoever.
There really isn't an argument to be made.
Well, panic was implied - to my ears - when Gettleman said he had facts that Jones wasn't going to be available unless he took him at #6.
I've asked this scores of time...why did Gettleman feel compelled to say that publicly?
Gettleman is the guy that makes you sit back down at the poker table after deciding to call it a night. He's a fucking donor.
Fine - then just say that when discussing why you made the selection. Why the need to wrap the pick around the threat of other teams taking Jones?
I mentioned this earlier, but that reeks of someone who is weak at decision making.
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... Is the notion That Daniel Jones was selected due to rumor or speculation... That's somehow the pick was rushed And made in a panic.
There is less evidence of that being true than there is of other teams being interested in Daniel Jones.
The argument has absolutely no legs whatsoever.
There really isn't an argument to be made.
Well, panic was implied - to my ears - when Gettleman said he had facts that Jones wasn't going to be available unless he took him at #6.
I've asked this scores of time...why did Gettleman feel compelled to say that publicly?
Easy, because he was “getting it” from all angles of the media for his pick at 6. I would have said something as well. Anything to shut them up. You’re making way too much of this.
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speculation. The notion is he was picked as early as he was by the Giants at #6 because of rumors and speculation.
Gettleman wanted to pick him at #17 but felt pressured to do it earlier otherwise he "guaranteed" everyone Jones would have been gone by #17.
This is how I piece it together as well. I would bet Jones was lower on their board than #6. But the pressure of replacing Eli, drafting a franchise QB (for DG), and then the rumors that surfaced very likely caused Gettleman to change his board mid-draft.
Of course.
And the fact that a good Edge Rusher like Josh Allen became available at #6 and he was conflicted since he felt he had to pull up Jones because of the rumors made it very difficult for him. And why he discussed specifically in his presser afterwards that he "agonized" over that very issue.
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In comment 15403370 chick310 said:
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speculation. The notion is he was picked as early as he was by the Giants at #6 because of rumors and speculation.
Gettleman wanted to pick him at #17 but felt pressured to do it earlier otherwise he "guaranteed" everyone Jones would have been gone by #17.
This is how I piece it together as well. I would bet Jones was lower on their board than #6. But the pressure of replacing Eli, drafting a franchise QB (for DG), and then the rumors that surfaced very likely caused Gettleman to change his board mid-draft.
I have come to dislike Gettelman a lot but this analysis doesn't pass muster to me. Does Gettelman seem like the type to panic? Or rather like the guy who falls in love with a player beforehand and decides to draft him even if it's "too early?"
Semantics. The panic in Gettleman came from falling in love with Jones and assuming he could get him at #17. But by the time the Draft started he was "panicked" enough that Jones wouldn't be there at #17 so he pulled him up.
Again, what is the issue is believing this? Especially since Jones is playing really well right now and we are pleased that he is.
Producer - your comment is fine.
But Gettleman then should have just said Jones was the pick all along because of his potential to be a Franchise QB. Instead he went down his usual "poker face" mode saying he guaranteed Jones would have been taken by at least two other teams and that he agonized over not taking Josh Allen.
This one is kind of simple to dissect.
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If Gettleman decided that Jones was a slam dunk Franchise QB, he had to take him at #6. But along with that goes the responsibility for the pick. If it doesn't work out it is bad because then it looks like he reached for a QB that he misjudged.
Producer - your comment is fine.
But Gettleman then should have just said Jones was the pick all along because of his potential to be a Franchise QB. Instead he went down his usual "poker face" mode saying he guaranteed Jones would have been taken by at least two other teams and that he agonized over not taking Josh Allen.
This one is kind of simple to dissect.
I'd encourage you to go back and read the transcript from the press conference right after the pick because Gettleman said exactly what you're saying he should have said. I've pulled most of those exact quotes for you:
Gettleman: It’s a wonderful thing when need and value match. We are thrilled to get Daniel (Jones). He was up there with everybody else on our board in terms of value and he was just perfect for us. I really believe in this kid. I really believe he is going to be a really nice, quality quarterback for us, for our franchise.
Q: Was Daniel Jones your best player available at 6? Did you have a higher grade on him than Josh Allen?
Gettleman: First of all, it is legal for guys to have the same grade. So when we set up our horizontal, they were on the same line.
Q: At what point did you realize he was your guy?
Gettleman: For me, it’s been a while. It’s been a while, to be frank with you.
Q: What stuck out to you?
Gettleman: I loved him on film. I absolutely loved him. I loved everything about him.
Q: Forgetting about the head for a second, what about his talent level did you like more than the other quarterback prospects?
Gettleman: I just thought his pocket presence and his poise were really important to me. I’ve been saying it for a long time: if you can’t consistently make plays from the pocket, you’re not going to make it in the NFL. You’ll be just another guy. You look at Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks, they consistently make plays from the pocket. That’s what this kid can do, and he is not by any stretch of the imagination an average athlete. He’s a really good athlete. This kid can extend, make plays with his feet, buy time in the pocket. He’s got feel. He really has all the things you’re looking for.
And as far as him falling to pick #17, here's what he said when asked:
Gettleman: You never know.
Q: And you weren’t willing to risk it?
Gettleman: I was not willing to risk it.
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2019/04/25/new-york-giants-2019-nfl-draft-review-and-rookie-free-agent-signings/ - ( New Window )
Not surprising.
Only several nights from you saying make threads about football discussion and not about petty disputes and remarks. Congrats on getting thru almost two days on your own commitment.
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In comment 15403413 Producer said:
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If Gettleman decided that Jones was a slam dunk Franchise QB, he had to take him at #6. But along with that goes the responsibility for the pick. If it doesn't work out it is bad because then it looks like he reached for a QB that he misjudged.
Producer - your comment is fine.
But Gettleman then should have just said Jones was the pick all along because of his potential to be a Franchise QB. Instead he went down his usual "poker face" mode saying he guaranteed Jones would have been taken by at least two other teams and that he agonized over not taking Josh Allen.
This one is kind of simple to dissect.
I'd encourage you to go back and read the transcript from the press conference right after the pick because Gettleman said exactly what you're saying he should have said. I've pulled most of those exact quotes for you:
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Opening Statement
Gettleman: It’s a wonderful thing when need and value match. We are thrilled to get Daniel (Jones). He was up there with everybody else on our board in terms of value and he was just perfect for us. I really believe in this kid. I really believe he is going to be a really nice, quality quarterback for us, for our franchise.
Q: Was Daniel Jones your best player available at 6? Did you have a higher grade on him than Josh Allen?
Gettleman: First of all, it is legal for guys to have the same grade. So when we set up our horizontal, they were on the same line.
Q: At what point did you realize he was your guy?
Gettleman: For me, it’s been a while. It’s been a while, to be frank with you.
Q: What stuck out to you?
Gettleman: I loved him on film. I absolutely loved him. I loved everything about him.
Q: Forgetting about the head for a second, what about his talent level did you like more than the other quarterback prospects?
Gettleman: I just thought his pocket presence and his poise were really important to me. I’ve been saying it for a long time: if you can’t consistently make plays from the pocket, you’re not going to make it in the NFL. You’ll be just another guy. You look at Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks, they consistently make plays from the pocket. That’s what this kid can do, and he is not by any stretch of the imagination an average athlete. He’s a really good athlete. This kid can extend, make plays with his feet, buy time in the pocket. He’s got feel. He really has all the things you’re looking for.
And as far as him falling to pick #17, here's what he said when asked:
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Q: Do you think you could’ve gotten Jones at No. 17?
Gettleman: You never know.
Q: And you weren’t willing to risk it?
Gettleman: I was not willing to risk it.
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2019/04/25/new-york-giants-2019-nfl-draft-review-and-rookie-free-agent-signings/ - ( New Window )
Yeah, you pulled all those really good relevant quotes. Let's go thru these...
"It is legal to have the same grade"...no that doesn't sound defensive at all.
It's been a while since I knew he was our guy". "I loved this guy". Yet this was an agonizing decision? Doesn't compute.
Seems to me these comments suggest Jones was a slam dunk at #6, so not sure why he and Allen had the same grade at all. And certainly doesn't seem agonizing to not go with Josh Allen.
Was there something else Eric?
It's been a while since I knew he was our guy". "I loved this guy". Yet this was an agonizing decision? Doesn't compute.
Seems to me these comments suggest Jones was a slam dunk at #6, so not sure why he and Allen had the same grade at all. And certainly doesn't seem agonizing to not go with Josh Allen.
I have no problem believing the DG thought Jones was their guy at QB. I mean, he watched three series at the Senior Bowl and liked him better than Haskins, who he watched play in the "Big 12" for Ohio State (what a quote that was, btw).
But the strategy was going to be the 17th slot until DG got spooked by the rumor mill. So maybe that led to DG adjusting their board to account for the chance they could miss Jones. Remember, draft boards do get set, but they are also dynamic.
Here is the other thing. Gettleman said after taking Jones that he could envision the "Green Bay model" where Jones could sit three years behind a vet (Eli). Then why the hell would you take a guy at #6 to sit for three years? The better, more logical idea to fit that approach is #17.
In comment 15403173 chick310 said:
As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.
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...with the 🎤 drop.
Not surprising.
Only several nights from you saying make threads about football discussion and not about petty disputes and remarks. Congrats on getting thru almost two days on your own commitment.
I have maintained that there is no argument to be had and I was right.
Please go fuck off.
In comment 15403173 chick310 said:
Quote:
As I mentioned and you say above, the most important thing isn't who else did or didn't want Jones. It's that he is a NYG and playing well right now.
Yes Eric, you were better off bowing out before you went down this path that you now find yourself without a proper exit strategy versus this whatever, "pro forma"?
Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.
What's really bizarre and triggering is that Gettleman felt an impulse to draft Daniel Jones at #6 back in 2019 for whatever reason and this isn't satisfying enough. You need another GM's opinion of Jones back then to actually substantiate it. That's got to be really agonizing.
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In comment 15403516 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...with the 🎤 drop.
Not surprising.
Only several nights from you saying make threads about football discussion and not about petty disputes and remarks. Congrats on getting thru almost two days on your own commitment.
actually my comment is a direct response to the conversation at hand.
I have maintained that there is no argument to be had and I was right.
Please go fuck off.
"I'm right about the argument about whether there's an argument."
Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Josh Rosen
Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Herbert
Jordan Love
Where would you rank Jones?
Sam Darnold
Josh Allen
Josh Rosen
Lamar Jackson
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Justin Herbert
Jordan Love
Where would you rank Jones?
He is clearly ahead of Love, Haskins, and Rosen. I am still unsure where to put Darnold because Teddy Bridgewater was hot to start 2020 then struggled mightily as teams got more film on their offense. If going by the Jets only I would not have Darnold above Jones. That being said, Darnold was the QB I wanted most after Mayfield was selected in 2018. I thought he would need Mahomes treatment and that we could offer that with Eli. By the way you left off Tua. I have an incomplete on him because while Miami has won games he has started, the analytics don’t support the record.
Tua was picked 5th. Jeff Okudah was 3rd (after Burrow and Chase Young).
Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.
Bingo!
Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.
Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?
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A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming
Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.
My good man, don’t you also step away from posting during the time the outcomes aren’t in line with your predictions?
I’m interested in why you make this remark.
What/where is the panic you refer to?
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In comment 15403619 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
A few of the usual folks starting to panic now that Jones is playing well. Who could have seen that coming
Not too worry, I GUARANTEE they’ll be back in FORCE if DJ throws some picks/has a down game. What a pleasure it’s been this week to not see their BS on every f*king thread.
My good man, don’t you also step away from posting during the time the outcomes aren’t in line with your predictions?
so the whole "not rooting against the giants/i'll be as happy as anyone if it works out" routine that accompanies the dire predictions isn't totally above board?
You take three big critics of Jones; me, BW, and Terps.
We all have a very different views on Jones past, present, and future.
If Jones leads the Giants to the playoffs this year, I guarantee all three of us will be happy as clams.
[quote]
And it's crazy to compare Jones to Mariota?
/quote]
No.. it is crazy to compare QBs just on record when everyone knows this is a team game and we have been one of the worst TEAMS in the league for a decade.
What is crazier is having to explain that to you. You are either ignorant (Not likely) or a troll who knows exactly what he is saying.
Let's see what Stafford's "record" looks like over the next three years with the Rams vs his last three years with the Lions.
The funny thing in all this is that the support for Jones as a good quarterback is only based on his being the quarterback for the Giants. If he played on another team no one would be saying these things, because there'd be no case for it.
And if you're concerned about "the long view" with Jones, it's this: is he better than a likely replacement enough to justify paying him a second contract?
If they pay him a second contract I predict it'll go the way it did with Bortles in Jacksonville - we'll be looking at big cap hit when we cut or trade him a year or two into it.
The funny thing in all this is that the support for Jones as a good quarterback is only based on his being the quarterback for the Giants. If he played on another team no one would be saying these things, because there'd be no case for it.
And if you're concerned about "the long view" with Jones, it's this: is he better than a likely replacement enough to justify paying him a second contract?
If they pay him a second contract I predict it'll go the way it did with Bortles in Jacksonville - we'll be looking at big cap hit when we cut or trade him a year or two into it.
it sounds like even if they somehow make the playoffs this year you wouldn't be happy as a clam.
honest question, if that's your belief what are you rooting for? whatever outcome is the quickest remedy to move on from Jones?
ok but if Jones continues playing at a similar level to these first 4 games and they somehow did make the playoffs, which would actually track your Bortles prediction, would you want to move on?
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I don't think they will make the playoffs. And when they don't, I will want to move on from Jones as quarterback.
ok but if Jones continues playing at a similar level to these first 4 games and they somehow did make the playoffs, which would actually track your Bortles prediction, would you want to move on?
No. They turn it around and make the playoffs I have to be fair - he's the quarterback.
Quote:
Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.
Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?
With regards to what Denver was doing.
Did the Gettleman quotes contradict any of it?
And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.
Quote:
In comment 15403565 chick310 said:
Quote:
Again, Denver didn't want Jones. That is what the facts show. And yet, it still shouldn't matter as Jones is playing at a high level right now and that is far more important, at least to me, than needing another team's draft opinion from 2019 shape my own of Jones and how he has actually played since then.
Honestly asking, is Peter King "the facts" here?
With regards to what Denver was doing.
Did the Gettleman quotes contradict any of it?
they did not. i've posted as much as I'm willing to on where my certainty re: denver comes from and plenty of reports just as credible as King back it up. you can choose whichever version you want to believe but don't delude yourself into think any of it is fact - it's all speculation. even the info I claim to have that's quite literally from a horses mouth.
And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.
I agree it's unlikely they make the playoffs (that's why GT placed the goalposts there) but if Jones keeps playing the way he is he won't be the reason they don't make it. He's played well enough to have a winning record. Slayton and Adoree Jackson not dropping easy balls changes the record but nothing about Jones' performance.
I'm more unsure of the team/coaching staff around him than him at this point. That's not to say I'd extend him now there's still 2 seasons (or more) left to make that decision - but as you said things are looking better now than they did in a month ago. Even if a playoff appearance didn't come with it this year I'd settle for that trend continuing.
But we shouldn't consider him credible.
I just love this place...
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Jones is worth a second contract. But that’s an improvement from August when the answer to the question was “hell no.”
And the Giants aren’t making the playoffs. Be real.
I agree it's unlikely they make the playoffs (that's why GT placed the goalposts there) but if Jones keeps playing the way he is he won't be the reason they don't make it. He's played well enough to have a winning record. Slayton and Adoree Jackson not dropping easy balls changes the record but nothing about Jones' performance.
I'm more unsure of the team/coaching staff around him than him at this point. That's not to say I'd extend him now there's still 2 seasons (or more) left to make that decision - but as you said things are looking better now than they did in a month ago. Even if a playoff appearance didn't come with it this year I'd settle for that trend continuing.
I placed the goalposts there before the season. It's a reasonable goal - year 3 of a rookie quarterback contract, lots of free agency spending...this was supposed to be the year we made the jump.
But we shouldn't consider him credible.
I just love this place...
Do you think they actually let reporters in the war room and let them report accurately? That isn’t how the NFL operates. Most would pass because they actually have credibility, King is an opportunist hack. “Sure I’ll write whatever you want as long as I get “credibility” of being in the war room to give my rube readers something to chew on.
Guy likes writing soliloquy’s on coffee, how the NFL is reaching out to the “young” audience with their halftime show, and collects legacy paychecks. Dude hasn’t written or reported anything worthwhile in 2 decades.
But we shouldn't consider him credible.
I just love this place...
As if Peter King’s popularity and column is somehow better if he reports Denver had Lock as their top QB if they took one. So he purposely lies and says it’s so
The dogging in on this is just nonsense at this point.
you're doing a great job highlighting why i presume many (others not me) who used to share good info no longer do. if you're looking for a certificate of authenticity on a message board youre in the wrong place.
But we shouldn't consider him credible.
I just love this place...
you can consider him as credible as every other mediate report that team x drafted the #1 player player on their board. The Redskins said Haskins was the #1 QB on their board too.
And yet if either team was sitting at #1 overall why do I think they wouldn't have taken either player? do you really believe the Broncos passed on their #1 overall QB at pick #20. They had all the top QBs in for predraft visits and were obviously in the market. Do you believe they didn't have a first round grade on any of them?
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with regards to any report from anybody? Something happens 3 years ago and you are willing to say what at this point doesn’t help your cause. In fact, why even bring it up and argue to this level.
you're doing a great job highlighting why i presume many (others not me) who used to share good info no longer do. if you're looking for a certificate of authenticity on a message board youre in the wrong place.
I still don’t know what pieces you did provide, if anything. Show what you are willing to and what actual published reports at least align with it.
That can’t be betraying any secrecies.
I placed the goalposts there before the season. It's a reasonable goal - year 3 of a rookie quarterback contract, lots of free agency spending...this was supposed to be the year we made the jump.
the same way I don't think it was an unfair expectation that they should be 2-2 or 3-1 right now (both ahead of time and in hindsight).
but context matters. Kyler imo made the jump last year and they went 8-8 with no playoffs. if the NYG were 4-0 right now because the defense pitched 4 shutouts that wouldn't validate Jones anymore than the opposite should invalidate whatever his performance.
Quote:
He was in the Denver War Room, saw the draft board and saw the key constituents in action running their process. And then reported what took place.
But we shouldn't consider him credible.
I just love this place...
you can consider him as credible as every other mediate report that team x drafted the #1 player player on their board. The Redskins said Haskins was the #1 QB on their board too.
And yet if either team was sitting at #1 overall why do I think they wouldn't have taken either player? do you really believe the Broncos passed on their #1 overall QB at pick #20. They had all the top QBs in for predraft visits and were obviously in the market. Do you believe they didn't have a first round grade on any of them?
Read the King article. Obviously you haven’t since he goes thru this.
To answer the OP, I think the right answer was to pick Allen and pick Herbert in 2020. Let's hope Jones continues his improvement.
We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.
When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.
The process is over. So what exactly would Denver or any team be trying to hide? None of those players can be drafted again.
We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.
When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.
Where do you rank Jones' performance this year? I'm curious on your answer when isolating the WAS/NO games as well. Top-third/average/bottom-third?
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But I also don't think Jones has been especially good these four games. I thought he was downright poor against Denver and Atlanta and he left a lot of points on the field in Washington as Kurt Warner described.
We are so starved for good play at quarterback (and all over the field, really) that we don't remember what actual good play looks like.
When the Giants finish 5-12 I'm not (and I hope every other Giant fan won't be) in the mood for yet another offseason of excuses and platitudes about how the arrow is pointing up. And that includes at quarterback.
Where do you rank Jones' performance this year? I'm curious on your answer when isolating the WAS/NO games as well. Top-third/average/bottom-third?
I don't know. Not top third, certainly. I'm inclined to say bottom third based on the terrible performances in both home games, the 1-3 record, and the low PPG.
But hey to borrow a line from the guys arguing for him... Let's see how the season goes. They go 10-7 and make the playoffs I'll have zero argument and I'll have been dead wrong.
Jones needs to lead a top third offense before I start moving him up.
I'd sure trust his take on the matter more than Gettleman's claims and justifications, that's for damn sure.
Quote:
is something we are all supposed to trust? Why is that? Do we only trust accounts from people that prove our stance?
I'd sure trust his take on the matter more than Gettleman's claims and justifications, that's for damn sure.
Same here, but insert any GM IMO. I don't really take anything they say as gospel.
It's kind of pathetic you need to validate jones by pretending another team would've picked him.