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Realistic best case scenario for pass rush this season

Giantimistic : 10/8/2021 10:09 am
If our online keeps improving and the light has really gone on for Jones and the offense, we should be competitive this season. On defense, which was thought to be the strength does not produce a pass rush the o will only take us so far.

Last season with a subpar rotating 2nd corner and injures in the secondary, we were generating a decent pash rush through blitzing. With a healthy secondary, more talent and a high second round pick, the pass rush has taken a step back. I don’t think this is just because Tomlinson is gone. Maybe offenses are picking up what we are doing better this year and some players are not in a groove yet, but we need something different.

That all being said, what is our best case scenario this season for developing a more effective pash rush.

Maybe Azeez turns it up, Ellison comes in and has success as a pass specialist, or another player picks it up. One player last year that I thought really blitzed well was Coughlin—will we see him more. I am not sure we see a pass rusher light go on for Carter or Ximines.

Is it scheme change that will make the difference?

Is our best case scenario not on the team right now?

I want to realistically discuss what can the Giants do now—not next season.

The defense of last year paired with an offense that looks to be on the rise may not be a Super Bowl team but we should compete for the division and maybe the wildcard.


I haven't been sure what Graham sees in Carter or Ximines,  
Angel Eyes : 10/8/2021 10:41 am : link
since neither has shown much in the years they've been with the Giants, and yet it's been either one of them or Ojulari who's been rushing the passer from the edge spots. If we can get Elerson and Quincy Roche up to speed that would be nice as well; Roche hasn't played much from my understanding.

I still can't get a bead on Carter Coughlin; he's shown to be a good blitzer who can get after the quarterback, can rush from the edge and shoot interior gaps, yet I'm also hearing he has a ton of missed tackles. Then again there's footage of him making a side tackle that Crowder was unable to make against New Orleans. I hope he could be a Karl Mecklenburg-type player: an inside linebacker on run downs, edge rusher/inside blitzer on passing downs.
LB Carter Coughlin: The Good, the Great and the Ugly - ( New Window )
I think it's time to get  
bLiTz 2k : 10/8/2021 11:19 am : link
Roche and Coughlin some snaps on obvious passing downs. They literally cannot be worse than the production we are getting on the edge right now.
The only hope for THIS season  
David B. : 10/8/2021 11:37 am : link
barring a trade, is that Ellerson Smith gets healthy and outplays his draft slot significantly. Seems highly unlikely. That and for Ojulari to break out more than he has. But of all the guys, he hasn't really been the problem.

The rest of them are JAGs, and Smith probably is, too.

If the Giants don't truly compete this year, the best bet would be draft more pass rushers in the offseason. If they're in the hunt for a playoff spot, they could seek a trade, but teams don't typically trade good pass rushers.
Biggest flaw on this team  
averagejoe : 10/8/2021 12:02 pm : link
We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.
......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 10/8/2021 12:07 pm : link
I'm thinking what we see is what we get, unless they struck gold on Elerson Smith when he comes off IR, which is doubtful.

Gotta be next years top priority.
RE: Biggest flaw on this team  
bLiTz 2k : 10/8/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15403140 averagejoe said:
Quote:
We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.


2 things...the Giants (and really any team) are barely in base defense. Forget about DE/DT and look at what gaps these guys play majority of the time. Williams and Lawrence are playing 3 tech, which is essentially DT in a 4 man front, so not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as blitzing, they are bringing extra rushers a ton more than last year...the problem isn't the scheme of those blitzes, it's that literally no one has beaten their guy 1v1 (which is what you want when you bring pressure). They can do more on the backend and whatnot, but at some point these guys need to beat a blocker.
RE: RE: Biggest flaw on this team  
averagejoe : 10/8/2021 1:32 pm : link
In comment 15403175 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15403140 averagejoe said:


Quote:


We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.



2 things...the Giants (and really any team) are barely in base defense. Forget about DE/DT and look at what gaps these guys play majority of the time. Williams and Lawrence are playing 3 tech, which is essentially DT in a 4 man front, so not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as blitzing, they are bringing extra rushers a ton more than last year...the problem isn't the scheme of those blitzes, it's that literally no one has beaten their guy 1v1 (which is what you want when you bring pressure). They can do more on the backend and whatnot, but at some point these guys need to beat a blocker.

Don't really care about gaps and 3 tech - they DO NOT RUSH THE PASSER. Graham needs to scheme pressure with blitzes and spring a man free. We don't have anybody beating their man. Have to bring pressure from somewhere. Other teams are able to do it.
RE: RE: Biggest flaw on this team  
Giantimistic : 10/8/2021 1:33 pm : link
In comment 15403175 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15403140 averagejoe said:


Quote:


We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.



2 things...the Giants (and really any team) are barely in base defense. Forget about DE/DT and look at what gaps these guys play majority of the time. Williams and Lawrence are playing 3 tech, which is essentially DT in a 4 man front, so not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as blitzing, they are bringing extra rushers a ton more than last year...the problem isn't the scheme of those blitzes, it's that literally no one has beaten their guy 1v1 (which is what you want when you bring pressure). They can do more on the backend and whatnot, but at some point these guys need to beat a blocker.


Last year I remember Bradberry, Peppers and Coughlin hitting on more blitzes and being very effective.
RE: RE: RE: Biggest flaw on this team  
bLiTz 2k : 10/8/2021 2:27 pm : link
In comment 15403214 averagejoe said:
Quote:
In comment 15403175 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 15403140 averagejoe said:


Quote:


We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.



2 things...the Giants (and really any team) are barely in base defense. Forget about DE/DT and look at what gaps these guys play majority of the time. Williams and Lawrence are playing 3 tech, which is essentially DT in a 4 man front, so not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as blitzing, they are bringing extra rushers a ton more than last year...the problem isn't the scheme of those blitzes, it's that literally no one has beaten their guy 1v1 (which is what you want when you bring pressure). They can do more on the backend and whatnot, but at some point these guys need to beat a blocker.


Don't really care about gaps and 3 tech - they DO NOT RUSH THE PASSER. Graham needs to scheme pressure with blitzes and spring a man free. We don't have anybody beating their man. Have to bring pressure from somewhere. Other teams are able to do it.


I'm mainly responding to your comment about DEs and DTs which is way off base.
Best case scenario is  
Mike from SI : 10/8/2021 3:16 pm : link
1. Leonard Williams plays like he did last year;
2. Instead of making 1 awesome play every game, Ojulari makes a few per game; and
3. Lorenzo Carter shows anything at all.

After that idk. I'd be shocked if one of our 2 draft picks are not used on an ER.
Hopefully our secondary gels.  
penkap75 : 10/8/2021 3:24 pm : link
Graham's zone schemes becomes effective and our Dline gets some coverage sacks.
Dexter Lawrence  
JB_in_DC : 10/8/2021 3:40 pm : link
I thought it was interesting Big Dex was ranked 34th in the NFL in Pressure Rate at 12.3 %, a similar rate as guys like TJ Watt and Chandler Jones. Big difference there is that those guys have 5 sacks apiece. Hopefully he starts getting home. No one else made the top 50.
Link - ( New Window )
Also see  
JB_in_DC : 10/8/2021 3:47 pm : link
Some charts of Pass Rush Win Rate versus Double Team Rate. Confirms what we've all seen with Carter so far.

Edge


D Tackles
RE: RE: RE: Biggest flaw on this team  
joeinpa : 10/8/2021 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15403214 averagejoe said:
Quote:
In comment 15403175 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 15403140 averagejoe said:


Quote:


We have two very good DT's playing DE that are providing almost NO pressure every game. Williams and Lawrence are not DE's but Giants continue to play them there. The best scenario is we creatively blitz but I think that is beyond Graham's capabilities.



2 things...the Giants (and really any team) are barely in base defense. Forget about DE/DT and look at what gaps these guys play majority of the time. Williams and Lawrence are playing 3 tech, which is essentially DT in a 4 man front, so not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as blitzing, they are bringing extra rushers a ton more than last year...the problem isn't the scheme of those blitzes, it's that literally no one has beaten their guy 1v1 (which is what you want when you bring pressure). They can do more on the backend and whatnot, but at some point these guys need to beat a blocker.


Don't really care about gaps and 3 tech - they DO NOT RUSH THE PASSER. Graham needs to scheme pressure with blitzes and spring a man free. We don't have anybody beating their man. Have to bring pressure from somewhere. Other teams are able to do it.


Joe, it s not always the coach, sometimes it s the player. Blitz gave a legitimate explanation as to what s happening, in football you have to beat the man in front of you, there is no scheming that will change the impact of a pass rush consistently enough to make a difference, if that is not happening.

Well done Blitz
I think there's a problem with the scheme;  
Angel Eyes : 10/8/2021 6:57 pm : link
it's too passive up-front by playing contain with the quarterback in the pocket and allowing him to pick the defense apart and the defensive backs are too far off the wide receivers. On the latter point, are the defensive backs playing that far off by choice or is that part of the scheme?
We  
AcidTest : 10/8/2021 7:45 pm : link
have no pass rushers that scare anyone, the OL is still a mess, and despite spending a bazillion draft picks on CBs our two starters at that position are expensive FAs. We also have no cap room.

Fire Gettleman.
We need to see more of Coughlin  
Batenhorst7 : 10/8/2021 8:15 pm : link
I really liked what he has shown in limited action to date.

Also this is a crazy idea but why not make Wall a 2 way player and develop him at corner or saftey

Can you imagine how quickly he would get to the QB in a blind side DB blitz situation. 2 secs? His triple stop and start reception last week on the final drive was mindblowing. Unbelievable body control and acceleration.
RE: We need to see more of Coughlin  
Angel Eyes : 10/8/2021 9:30 pm : link
In comment 15403490 Batenhorst7 said:
Quote:
I really liked what he has shown in limited action to date.

Also this is a crazy idea but why not make Wall a 2 way player and develop him at corner or saftey

Can you imagine how quickly he would get to the QB in a blind side DB blitz situation. 2 secs? His triple stop and start reception last week on the final drive was mindblowing. Unbelievable body control and acceleration.

Wall?
sorry meant to say ROSS  
Batenhorst7 : 10/8/2021 9:47 pm : link
Senior moment (sorry)

Actually any of our DBs can pull this off
I am admittedly blown away by Ross's speed and body control

RE: Also see  
OntheRoad : 10/9/2021 9:11 pm : link
In comment 15403324 JB_in_DC said:
Quote:
Some charts of Pass Rush Win Rate versus Double Team Rate.


Those charts show Leonard Williams being double-teamed 60% of the time, and Dexter Lawrence 70%. No wonder they're not getting more pressures.
See if Broncos will trade Malik Reed for Sterling Shepherd and a mid  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/9/2021 9:22 pm : link
rounder (he’s on an extremely favorable contract)

Had high hopes for Smith as a strictly pass rush specialist this year as well. Curious what he has but he can only play on 3rd and long right now.
RE: RE: Also see  
Angel Eyes : 10/9/2021 10:21 pm : link
In comment 15404077 OntheRoad said:
Quote:
In comment 15403324 JB_in_DC said:


Quote:


Some charts of Pass Rush Win Rate versus Double Team Rate.



Those charts show Leonard Williams being double-teamed 60% of the time, and Dexter Lawrence 70%. No wonder they're not getting more pressures.

We still need another good edge guy opposite Ojulari. Judging from the charts, Carter is single-blocked most of the time he rushes and his win rate is third-lowest on that chart.
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