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How many teams could win with 8 starters out on offense?

rnargi : 10/10/2021 10:13 pm
What coach can make that happen?

QB, RB, 3 WRs, LOT, LG, and C.

Seriously...there isn't any. No coaching staff could win under today's circumstances.

and we weren't winning  
Producer : 10/10/2021 10:14 pm : link
with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.
RE: and we weren't winning  
rnargi : 10/10/2021 10:15 pm : link
In comment 15407405 Producer said:
Quote:
with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.


You know something? You should find something else to do. This can't be healthy for you.
I actually thought the offense played well considering  
Chris684 : 10/10/2021 10:16 pm : link
This defense continues to disappoint.

And don’t forget specials.

And specials? You expect a kicker of Gano’s stature to make a 54 yarder indoors early in the game. Dixon with another 40 yard punt and no positive momentum plays to speak of.
It really isn't about the offense.  
robbieballs2003 : 10/10/2021 10:17 pm : link
This was all on the D. When shit goes south you need everyone to step up. When our teammates needed help from the D, our D just turned around, dropped their pants, and said, "Thank you, may I have another."
6  
bronxct1 : 10/10/2021 10:17 pm : link
I'll call it 6. LG and C are our starters going forward and we won with those players last week so I'd take them out of the equation.

In-game injuries are a killer, it's not like the staff could install a game plan for a completely different personnel group. It took them a few series to find a way to move the ball but at that point, it's tough to catch up.
Many of them  
GNewGiants : 10/10/2021 10:17 pm : link
Aren’t good to begin with or are average at best.
No which is why you don't get mulligans in this league  
Giants_West : 10/10/2021 10:18 pm : link
If they come into this season with some fire and take it more seriously they might have been able to actually beat Washington and Atlanta. Then we would be sitting at 3-2 with 3-4 or 3-5 being records that you can recover from down the stretch as people start filtering back from injuries. Instead we are looking at 1-6 or 1-7 and the team likely quitting on the coach and the entire organization tanking back to square 1.

We are the new browns.
RE: It really isn't about the offense.  
rnargi : 10/10/2021 10:19 pm : link
In comment 15407411 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
This was all on the D. When shit goes south you need everyone to step up. When our teammates needed help from the D, our D just turned around, dropped their pants, and said, "Thank you, may I have another."


Can't argue with that. The Bradbury dropped int was a killer. Papa and Banks were killing him.
i totally agree.  
wigs in nyc : 10/10/2021 10:19 pm : link
if youre only watching football with a ‘championship or I’m miserable’ approach, youre missing out on a whole lot to root for and draw spirit and inspiration from. it’s great to watch these men fight. i hope they get some more wins for our collective sake. im rooting for them.
...  
Pascal4554 : 10/10/2021 10:20 pm : link
So are we going to give Gettleman another pass because of the injuries? What conversation are you looking for? I still like Joe Judge. Team played hard. Injuries suck. Giants 19-50 for since 2017. Where 8 starters on offense out for the last four years?
There's no shame in losing in Dallas  
Go Terps : 10/10/2021 10:21 pm : link
They're really good, and they'd be a handful for anyone.

But losing at home to Denver in the opener and to Atlanta is unacceptable for a team that wants to be taken seriously.

This team is a disaster and another reboot is almost upon us.
That  
Jerry K : 10/10/2021 10:21 pm : link
Plus a defense that gives up 500 yards.
RE: There's no shame in losing in Dallas  
Producer : 10/10/2021 10:22 pm : link
In comment 15407427 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They're really good, and they'd be a handful for anyone.

But losing at home to Denver in the opener and to Atlanta is unacceptable for a team that wants to be taken seriously.

This team is a disaster and another reboot is almost upon us.


I like Toney and Thomas. That's about it.
I will say this,  
robbieballs2003 : 10/10/2021 10:22 pm : link
I can't remember the last time I've seen a Giants team not worth rooting for. There is very little to like about this team, especially today with Jones out. The D is just flat out embarrassing. You see punches being thrown, helmets getting ripped off, etc. Absolutely pathetic.
RE: I will say this,  
Producer : 10/10/2021 10:23 pm : link
In comment 15407431 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
I can't remember the last time I've seen a Giants team not worth rooting for. There is very little to like about this team, especially today with Jones out. The D is just flat out embarrassing. You see punches being thrown, helmets getting ripped off, etc. Absolutely pathetic.


they're dull. which is a worse sin than being bad.
The problem is the defense stunk.  
St. Jimmy : 10/10/2021 10:23 pm : link
That has been a major them this year.
RE: The problem is the defense stunk.  
Producer : 10/10/2021 10:26 pm : link
In comment 15407434 St. Jimmy said:
Quote:
That has been a major them this year.


No. The offense isn't good enough. It's an offense league. All defenses get torched at some point.
Defense  
JonC : 10/10/2021 10:31 pm : link
from Graham on down should be embarrassed with their play this season. The offense needs more talent but it was likely it would struggle with so little work together during the preseason.

A lot of injury issues on O, and the OL is really patchwork.
I get the injury argument  
larryflower37 : 10/10/2021 10:35 pm : link
But let's start with the line.
The depth from training camp was atrocious.
Golladay was a injury concern when we signed him.
Barkley was coming off a major injury and the depth was questionable in Training camp they could have done a better job looking for a strong backups (kept 2 FBs?)
We stack depth at WR based on special team players.
We will see what Mike Glennon brings to the table (Jones has missed games before) I believe there was better back up talent available.

Like others have said the defense is a major reason for how bad this team is
RE: i totally agree.  
rsjem1979 : 10/10/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15407424 wigs in nyc said:
Quote:
if youre only watching football with a ‘championship or I’m miserable’ approach, youre missing out on a whole lot to root for and draw spirit and inspiration from. it’s great to watch these men fight. i hope they get some more wins for our collective sake. im rooting for them.


"Championship or I'm miserable? This team hasn't been above .500 at literally any time since 2016.

It's delusion to see this as anything other than a disastrous organization at the moment. Stop lying to yourself.
Not going to kill them at all for this game  
AcesUp : 10/10/2021 10:41 pm : link
But this is why the Washington and Atlanta games were so devastating. The schedule does not get easier and until last week, the giants injury luck wasn’t any worse than the rest of the league. Ik a lot of us here live in a bubble with the Giants but a few unproven interior lineman over the first few weeks isn’t bad luck, that’s standard. Now the schedule ramps up and the injury luck is actually going the wrong way. They buried themselves with mistakes the first month and it’s too much to overcome now.
OP  
Keaton028 : 10/10/2021 10:44 pm : link
Sure you may be right. But, I’m just so tired of reasoning out losses anymore. It’s old.
Defense let up 44  
BeckShepEli : 10/10/2021 10:45 pm : link
What’s your excuse for them? Sick post
Like others said, the defense is a sieve  
Metnut : 10/10/2021 10:50 pm : link
and the situation is hopeless with a unit that bad. The D needs to turn it around because otherwise any progress the offense is made is just treading water because we’re looking at a complete rebuild of the defense from scratch.

How many above average players do we have on defense? Leonard Williams and who else? We’re well into year of 4 Gettleman and the unit lacks talent everywhere.
RE: Defense let up 44  
montanagiant : 10/10/2021 10:51 pm : link
In comment 15407483 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
What’s your excuse for them? Sick post

Well you have to take into account that if the Offense can't extend drives that's going to exhaust the D as well as giving the other teams O more chances
They also went 1-3 versus the easiest part of the schedule  
Metnut : 10/10/2021 10:51 pm : link
with a relatively healthy group
RE: Defense let up 44  
short lease : 10/10/2021 10:52 pm : link
In comment 15407483 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
What’s your excuse for them? Sick post


You just don't get the sport do you?


RE: RE: and we weren't winning  
montanagiant : 10/10/2021 10:52 pm : link
In comment 15407409 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 15407405 Producer said:


Quote:


with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.



You know something? You should find something else to do. This can't be healthy for you.

Ignore him, he is obviously a troll/dupe.
If not I truly feel sorry for him.
RE: RE: Defense let up 44  
BeckShepEli : 10/10/2021 10:54 pm : link
In comment 15407497 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15407483 BeckShepEli said:


Quote:


What’s your excuse for them? Sick post


Well you have to take into account that if the Offense can't extend drives that's going to exhaust the D as well as giving the other teams O more chances


Valid point, I think when DJ went down 99% of the fans knew it was a wrap even though it was 10-10. Regardless NYG Defense for 2021 has been extremely concerning and not the shut down defense many expected
I think the Giants  
joeinpa : 10/10/2021 10:56 pm : link
With Thomas, Jones and Barkley were going to put many pts on the board,
RE: Defense let up 44  
robbieballs2003 : 10/10/2021 11:02 pm : link
In comment 15407483 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
What’s your excuse for them? Sick post


Serious question: did you watch the game? The D didn't give up 44. Glennon threw a pick 6. Also, you said Judge benched Toney even though he was ejected.
RE: RE: The problem is the defense stunk.  
St. Jimmy : 10/10/2021 11:02 pm : link
In comment 15407439 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407434 St. Jimmy said:


Quote:


That has been a major them this year.



No. The offense isn't good enough. It's an offense league. All defenses get torched at some point.
Yes the offense should score more. The defense is also awful. How many times do they need to drop interceptions that lead to touchdowns?
Here is a better question  
BH28 : 10/10/2021 11:20 pm : link
How many teams went into the season with the strategy, "pray for offensive line health?"

Because that's essentially what the Giants did. Went in with Thomas, Lemeuix, Gates, Hernadez, Solder, and Peart. The whole plan was to have these guys take a step forward but it didn't really seem like they planned on getting injuries along the line with no depth signing. Look at the scramble they have had to do since camp.

Pray for health is not an effective strategy and should be a fireable offense on it's own.
RE: and we weren't winning  
GMen72 : 10/10/2021 11:25 pm : link
In comment 15407405 Producer said:
Quote:
with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.


Not to mention, half of those "starters" would be backups on a good roster.
As much as the NFL game has supposedly changed, just look  
plato : 10/11/2021 1:04 am : link
at successful teams and you will find those with good defense and ability to run the ball virtually at will, are amongst the best teams in the league.

Our running game is a shambles as is our defense. That’s why there’s all this horrid whining and pissing about DG, JJ, etc etc.
RE: As much as the NFL game has supposedly changed, just look  
Producer : 10/11/2021 1:11 am : link
In comment 15407682 plato said:
Quote:
at successful teams and you will find those with good defense and ability to run the ball virtually at will, are amongst the best teams in the league.

Our running game is a shambles as is our defense. That’s why there’s all this horrid whining and pissing about DG, JJ, etc etc.


Huh? This is a passing league. Not a running league. Teams who prioritize run over pass, lose. That's the problem with the Giants. They are stuck in the *run the ball / stout defense paradigm*. It no longer works. And the losing continues.
I agree with the OP  
.McL. : 10/11/2021 3:34 am : link
Nobody should have been expecting a win under these circumstances against a good Dallas team.

However, there is another way to look at this.

When the offense was at full strength, it is not like they were lighting up the scoreboard. I think it is safe to say that on average the offense underperformed, their ppg was well below the average.

What does it tell you about the starters, when there is not a major falloff in performance when 8 or 11 go down with injury? It tells me that the average player on offense is not performing much better than replacement level players.

Although I will say that Toney does not look like a replacement level player out there. He is going to Wally Pipp somebody.
RE: I agree with the OP  
madeinstars : 10/11/2021 3:59 am : link
In comment 15407709 .McL. said:
Quote:
Nobody should have been expecting a win under these circumstances against a good Dallas team.

However, there is another way to look at this.

When the offense was at full strength, it is not like they were lighting up the scoreboard. I think it is safe to say that on average the offense underperformed, their ppg was well below the average.

What does it tell you about the starters, when there is not a major falloff in performance when 8 or 11 go down with injury? It tells me that the average player on offense is not performing much better than replacement level players.

Although I will say that Toney does not look like a replacement level player out there. He is going to Wally Pipp somebody.


I agree with this and like to add that this is exactly why going 1-3 in the easy part of the schedule was inexcusable. (And why Judge's insistence that the first quarter of the season is basically an extrended preseason is fucking asinine and a firable offense all by itself).
RE: and we weren't winning  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 4:30 am : link
In comment 15407405 Producer said:
Quote:
with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.


In case you hadn't noticed we haven't had a full healthy squad so far-- but don;t let that stop you from misrepresenting what is happening.
2020 49ers were way more injured  
chuckydee9 : 10/11/2021 5:01 am : link
2020 eagles were just as badly injured and they both beat the Giants..
RE: RE: and we weren't winning  
ajr2456 : 10/11/2021 5:19 am : link
In comment 15407719 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15407405 Producer said:


Quote:


with them either. In case you hadn't noticed.



In case you hadn't noticed we haven't had a full healthy squad so far-- but don;t let that stop you from misrepresenting what is happening.


Neither does every NFL team
Expect to win? No  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2021 6:11 am : link
Not allowing 40 points would be nice though. Losses don't have to be beat downs.
It’s kind of beyond “every team has injuries!”  
mattnyg05 : 10/11/2021 6:15 am : link
This is an INSANE amount of starting offensive players out. You had no chance here regardless of defense being terrible.

The biggest problem is losing two winnable games against mediocre to bad teams. I am still ok with Judge but the whole “the first four weeks are an extension of preseason” backfired badly. Now with everyone out for god knows how long you’re in big trouble. Obviously.
RE: It’s kind of beyond “every team has injuries!”  
ajr2456 : 10/11/2021 6:21 am : link
In comment 15407746 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
This is an INSANE amount of starting offensive players out. You had no chance here regardless of defense being terrible.

The biggest problem is losing two winnable games against mediocre to bad teams. I am still ok with Judge but the whole “the first four weeks are an extension of preseason” backfired badly. Now with everyone out for god knows how long you’re in big trouble. Obviously.


The Ravens have lost nearly every RB on their roster. Starting corner and countless other players and seem to make it work.
RE: RE: It’s kind of beyond “every team has injuries!”  
Mike from SI : 10/11/2021 6:22 am : link
In comment 15407750 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15407746 mattnyg05 said:


Quote:


This is an INSANE amount of starting offensive players out. You had no chance here regardless of defense being terrible.

The biggest problem is losing two winnable games against mediocre to bad teams. I am still ok with Judge but the whole “the first four weeks are an extension of preseason” backfired badly. Now with everyone out for god knows how long you’re in big trouble. Obviously.



The Ravens have lost nearly every RB on their roster. Starting corner and countless other players and seem to make it work.


Well imagine being a well-run and well-drafting organization. Our owner likes GMs and coaches who talk like it's the 1980s. It is what it is at this point.
What have you done for me lately  
mattnyg05 : 10/11/2021 6:23 am : link
They win last week and (most) everyone is kind of happy with that. Ask yourself-if you knew ahead of time that Thomas, Barkley, Jones AND Golladay would be out-could they possibly win? You’d say no, definitely not.

And yet, it’s complete doom and gloom when they lose. It was 10-10 when the Jones injury occurred. Now how long these guys are out makes a difference, and by no means is 1-4 a good thing, but with everyone in the lineup we could have had a scary offense.
This isn’t just losing 3 rbs (when you have an incredible o line  
mattnyg05 : 10/11/2021 6:26 am : link
and rushing offense to begin with like Baltimore). You literally do not have 2 starting WRS (3 if you count Slayton), a borderline all pro left tackle, your own starting RB, your STARTING QB, I mean come on. Maybe it’s an organizational problem that everyone gets hurt all the time but to say “every other team makes that work” is complete BS.

And I won’t even mention losing Martinez and Peppers because I think that the defense would have sucked anyway. That’s an entirely different problem itself.
Just curious about Toney on 1st possession  
joe48 : 10/11/2021 6:41 am : link
Why didn’t Garrett get him the ball at the beginning of the game. He looks like a player that can get the defense back on its heels plus it gives DJ time to get into the flow of the game with shorter passes.
....  
Chuck Q : 10/11/2021 6:46 am : link
... and the phycological event of losing Martinez and Gates out of the starting gate then Shepard the next week was devastating.
RE: It really isn't about the offense.  
BlueHurricane : 10/11/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15407411 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
This was all on the D. When shit goes south you need everyone to step up. When our teammates needed help from the D, our D just turned around, dropped their pants, and said, "Thank you, may I have another."


The defense does suck but they are also missing their best player (Martinez) and the second best guy (Bradberry) has forgotten how to play corner. And someone tell me why the hell we signed Jackson? His biggest play so far was a missed INT.

Wonder how many interviews PG gets after this season.
It's definitely one of those years.  
mittenedman : 10/11/2021 9:22 am : link
The injuries have officially made the team non-competitive. You can only withstand so much.

Even the week 1 ass kicking - the Giants were in no position to compete due to injuries. (Rusty guys returning to the lineup with no practice time.)

It sucks, but the Football Gods don't care if you need to make evaluations. This has been a lost year to injuries.

That said - I hope it doesn't mean a free pass for the coaching staff. Even if the Giants are committed to Judge another year, I think it's time to replace both coordinators. I think we understand now why Graham was allowed to leave without a fight. He wasn't all that important a piece.
RE: Expect to win? No  
.McL. : 10/11/2021 2:25 pm : link
In comment 15407743 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Not allowing 40 points would be nice though. Losses don't have to be beat downs.

Yeah, well, that is an issue with the defense which has not played well all year, and has nothing to do with losing 8 starters on offense. They have lost Martinez and that hurts. But overall, the defense is healthy compare to the offense. The defense has no excuse at all.
The frustration and pitchforks  
Dave in PA : 10/11/2021 2:28 pm : link
Are about a whole hell of a lot more than just yesterday. Yesterday was just one of those make or break type games and they not only broke but shattered. People are fed up. It’s been a gigantic failure for almost a decade straight at this point
I agree...BUT  
Thegratefulhead : 10/11/2021 3:24 pm : link
We need to take the view from a higher orbit for a clearer picture. We have collective tunnel vision on BBI. When you isolate a play, quarter, single game, decision, draft pick....

Anything.

As long you as you make it narrow and specific you can argue the rationale behind it and find something that you can argue.

Instead.

Take last 10 years as a whole.

56 wins vs 93 losses.

The only conclusion is a complete and total organizational failure.

There is no excuse.
RE: RE: Expect to win? No  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 4:33 pm : link
In comment 15408939 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 15407743 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Not allowing 40 points would be nice though. Losses don't have to be beat downs.


Yeah, well, that is an issue with the defense which has not played well all year, and has nothing to do with losing 8 starters on offense. They have lost Martinez and that hurts. But overall, the defense is healthy compare to the offense. The defense has no excuse at all.


Yes they do.

Their entire LB core sucks. Their NT sucks. Half your defense right from the get go sucks. This means "no mistakes" from every other player. How many are "great" that won't have a few misatkes?
Every year the NFL is a war of attrition  
BH28 : 10/11/2021 4:59 pm : link
Depth matters; you can't free agent sign your way out of bad drafting becasue then you end up with paper thin depth. The teams that can overcome injuries the best are the teams that will succeed.

RE: I think the Giants  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/12/2021 8:31 pm : link
In comment 15407513 joeinpa said:
Quote:
With Thomas, Jones and Barkley were going to put many pts on the board,

Many?

When have they done that? They have yet to break 30, which is the average of the top 10 offenses in the league.

They never score "many" and they rarely score "enough."
RE: ....  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/12/2021 8:35 pm : link
In comment 15407774 Chuck Q said:
Quote:
... and the phycological event of losing Martinez and Gates out of the starting gate then Shepard the next week was devastating.

They were 0-1 when they lost Gates; 0-2 when they lost Martinez.

Maybe part of the problem is thinking that's the starting gate.
RE: What have you done for me lately  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/12/2021 8:37 pm : link
In comment 15407753 mattnyg05 said:
Quote:
They win last week and (most) everyone is kind of happy with that. Ask yourself-if you knew ahead of time that Thomas, Barkley, Jones AND Golladay would be out-could they possibly win? You’d say no, definitely not.

And yet, it’s complete doom and gloom when they lose. It was 10-10 when the Jones injury occurred. Now how long these guys are out makes a difference, and by no means is 1-4 a good thing, but with everyone in the lineup we could have had a scary offense.

Other than Thomas, which of those guys doesn't have an extensive injury history?
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