It was Rosen or Darnold. Allen was barely a blip on the radar. He was raw but had the big arm.
Hindsight threads never work.
I wanted Jackson and started a thread saying so two months before that draft. And many of us were warning against drafting Barkley well before that draft.
I always see this response. Oh the fans wanted Darnold or Rosen, so it really doesn't matter DG took Barkley.
Is it not reasonable to expect more from the people actually in charge of the team? Who cares who the fans wanted? DG and the entire FO fucked up by not taking Josh Allen (or Quinten Nelson, for that matter). Obviously it looks like hindsight to us fans, but I expect a professional GM to actually be able to predict how players will turn out to some agree.
And as Terps salready said: the fact that Barkley at #2 was a terrible pick is not hindsight at all. Many predicted this beforehand and for exactly the reasons it turned out to be a wasted pick too. Namely: positional value, injury proneness, contract value and Barkley not being a north-south back.
He just wanted "best player" at the pick...it's purely a dumb way of looking at it. Gettle is basically like a fan picking a team for his fantasy league. It's almost like he has no regard for how a player would fit or what what vision he has for the team; which is obviously none.
There’s also a segment of the fan base that believes
you take a player and it doesn’t matter how you build the team around them or choose the coaches to develop them. (Those people are idiots.) Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson have tremendous physical ability, but their respective teams have done amazing jobs developing them with coaching, schemes, and talent acquisitions around them, like the Giants once did with Eli Manning. The Giants, OTOH, have done an abominable job in those areas with Daniel Jones. I have zero reason to believe that a NY Giants version of Josh Allen would’ve been brought along slowly with a team that limited pressure on him (running, defense) as he developed and continuously added pieces as he improved. And there’s literally no way that the organization that foisted Jason Garrett on Joe Judge would’ve had the foresight to hire someone like Greg Roman to get the most out of Lamar Jackson. Let’s not forget all of the talent the Ravens have around Jackson either, like one of the sport’s best left tackles and tight ends.
Daniel Jones might not have been good enough even if the Giants
did a good job around him with coaching, development, and talent acquisition. But we’ll never know because they did a piss poor job. Hard to believe it would’ve been different with any of the other QBs they could’ve selected over the past few years.
RE: There’s also a segment of the fan base that believes
you take a player and it doesn’t matter how you build the team around them or choose the coaches to develop them. (Those people are idiots.) Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson have tremendous physical ability, but their respective teams have done amazing jobs developing them with coaching, schemes, and talent acquisitions around them, like the Giants once did with Eli Manning. The Giants, OTOH, have done an abominable job in those areas with Daniel Jones. I have zero reason to believe that a NY Giants version of Josh Allen would’ve been brought along slowly with a team that limited pressure on him (running, defense) as he developed and continuously added pieces as he improved. And there’s literally no way that the organization that foisted Jason Garrett on Joe Judge would’ve had the foresight to hire someone like Greg Roman to get the most out of Lamar Jackson. Let’s not forget all of the talent the Ravens have around Jackson either, like one of the sport’s best left tackles and tight ends.
On the other hand, if the Giants had a competent enough FO to identify Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as future stars, instead of spending a #2 on a RB, maybe they would have had a FO competent enough to surround those players with the right talent.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
Let's be accurate. The problem isnt that he "ignored" these positions. The problem is that they more often than not selected the wrong players.
This gets repeated ad nauseam around here and it's a pet peeve.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
But people, fans, don’t get paid millions to make these choices, Gettleman does. Plus, even many fans understood, you don’t take a running back with the second pick in the draft.
I believe there were reports Shurmur liked Allen most..
the overwhelming majority here wanted Darnold. I did not like Darnold at USC. Unfortunately I though Rosen would be a netter QB. I had no problem taking Barkley. I liked Nelson too
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
the overwhelming majority here wanted Darnold. I did not like Darnold at USC. Unfortunately I though Rosen would be a netter QB. I had no problem taking Barkley. I liked Nelson too
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
Not fair Vic. Those of us bemoaning Barkley at # 2 have been consistent. Granted we were happy with his play last week, and anxious for more, but no one was ready to back down on their belief you don’t take a RB. that high.
RB s get beat up, Barkley with his reckless abandon style more so than most. It was a poorly conceived pick and sadly he will probably be on another team next season.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
This is largely correct and not the product of hingsight. Lamar Jackson was considered as behind the main four names, largely because of questions regarding his accuracy, and of course was not the first player taken by the Ravens. Even after they took him, I think they tried to get him to play wide receiver.
As for the four names: Allen was regarded as the most "NFL ready" whatever that really means, but also seen as a more limited arm than Darnold or Rosen.
Mayfield had small character issues, seemed a polarising figure. There was some surprise when the Browns took him #1 over all, and remember they also had the #4 pick. To this date, he hasn't really justified that #1 pick. The wow factor is missing, compared to say Justing Herbert.
Darnold had had an exemplary sophomore season, but then not such a good final year, but the Jets were 100% all in on him and moved up to secure the #3 pick to take him.
And lastly, Josh Rosen. Hailing from a wealthy family, there were questions about his attitude and desire, yet also belief that the guy had maybe the best arm of the four. In his defense, he went to the team with an even worse offensive line than the Giants.
You could argue that all of these college quarterbacks need developing for NFL play and that what actually panned out is that Josh Allen got to play in a better environment than he would have if we had drafted him. Likewise with Baker Mayfield. Without fortifying the offensive line, and I mean to make it a source of strength and not just okay, I doubt any of the above except perhaps Lamar Jackson would have done well with the Giants.
And the above is not hindsight. I followed the three month lead up to the 2018 draft very closely, where all the talk was about the four quarterbacks.
Allen was talked about in 2017. But he had a mediocre 2018, and dropped. Only to rise again leading up to the draft. I blame the Giants less for not taking him than for taking a RB over Nelson and Chubb.
Think about this Mahommes and Deshaun Watson was drafted after Mitch Trubiscky and John Ross!!
Josh Allen was drafted after Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield,
Drafting players is not an exact science. Most are bad at it. Also most players are good if given an opportunity to succeed. Allen and Manommes have been given that opportunity with outstanding coaching and roster building.
If the Giants had a team architect willing to draft Allen — chances are that guy wouldn’t have made the other myriad errors leading to where this team is.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
I would almost bet you any amount of money if the Bills picked with Darnold on the board, they would have picked him. I’m not sure about Baker because he was a guy whose stock rises specifically because of Cleveland, but I’m almost positive Darnold would have been for Buffalo if there. They really basically picked Allen because of his arm strength and the type of weather that is played in Buffalo in Nov/Dec.
Was a failure from an overall organization perspective, both from a talent evaluation perspective and team evaluation perspective.
DG stated he had SB as the highest rated prospective since Peyton Manning, with a perfect grade. His style of play should never have lead to a perfect grade insofar as he: (1) he was not terribly effective running between the tackles in college; and (2) his pass blocking was well below average for a three down back. These two things alone should have disqualified from from a perfect grade.
From an organization perspective, the team was in major decline and in need of a reboot, featuring a qb who was done. Selecting a running back at 2 overall, with the highest draft pick in decades was malpractice, to say the least.
Now, from a Josh Allen perspective, its disingenuous for anyone on here to say that he was the #2 overall prospect in that draft. There were concerns about him coming out of college. However, his raw tools and feel for the game, he was clearly a top 10 prospect. Thus, if the Giants wanted to select him, the proper move was a trade back to get another high pick and select Allen. If they had taken a qb at #2 it was likely going to be Darnold - which many of us, myself included - wanted. Reality is, we are not paid to get it right, DG and co are and they failed miserably in the 2018 offseason - of which we are still witnessing the impacts today.
It has become clear that the days of a mediocre arm qb winning with his smarts and savy are quickly disappearing. The positions calls for a QB who can scramble in and around the pocket and create a major advantage with off schedule plays and a top to elite arm strength. Guys like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Stafford, Rodgers, etc. That's the way to go in this league and a GM gets paid to make a call on guys like that, we do not. Still not sure yet if the Giants have that guy, but we can clearly say that Jones is not in the Allen Herbert class from a pocket mobility/arm strength perspective.
To say that the Giants offense would not be better with either of those guys under center is simply not true.
Buffalo deserves all the credit they're getting for drafting Allen
but I wonder if they would have chosen him if they had a shot at Darnold. Regardless he was picked by Buffalo and they have developed him into an elite NFL QB surrounded by excellent players. Their GM and HC have done an unbelievable job so far.
The NFL is a results league. Everything else is an excuse. John and Chris Mara own the worst team in the NFL the past 5 years and a team that hasn't won a playoff game in a decade. Gettleman is 16-37. Joe Judge 7-14. They are the 2nd GM and 4th HC since the last playoff win. The problem at this point is the direction fo the franchise being set by John and Chris Mara. Like their father before them they have no idea what they're doing and refuse to hire people who do and get out of the way.
in 2018 and was constantly hyping Allen's potential. So let's not act like Allen wasn't in the mix as the best QB of that year.
Furthermore, Allen was getting plenty of hype around here. A few of us were constantly discussing his prospects and I was giving throw by throw commentary during his workout on the NFLN. Allen lit it up like a Greek God.
But at the end of the day, it's not about BBI getting it "right". It's about the NYG brass getting it right. And DG took the easy way out - "my mom could have picked Barkley..." - by choosing SB instead grabbing a QB with immense upside. A QB who right now is carving a path to Canton...
Unlikely Dave Gettleman would have chosen the correct QBs
in that draft. The mistake was not accepting the Cleveland Brown offer and getting out of the #2 pick for more picks.
Not to say they would have hit on all of them, but at least the percentages would have improved of getting something correct with more volume of picks.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
That’s not what I recall. And I didn’t want Barkley second and it had nothing to do with Darnold.
RE: Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
It would have been a bold move and a gamble to pass on the "generational running back" from our backyard at Penn State to take a qb from Wyoming even though the guy had out of this world tools. The Giants weren't going to do that.
Sometimes it works out: in a similar circumstance in 1970, the Steelers took a small school qb with out of this world tools with the first pick in the draft- Terry Bradshaw
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Rosen as well.
RE: Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Allen was not considered a reach at #7. I don't know what you are remembering. He was in the top-10 mix the whole time.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Irrelevant what a majority or minority posted as to their desire. Still left with what the Giants should not have done.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
If the Giants had a team architect willing to draft Allen — chances are that guy wouldn’t have made the other myriad errors leading to where this team is.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Exactly. If Gettleman had made every other move he made with the exception of taking Allen instead of Barkley, I still think the Giants would be a poor team. But taking Allen would require Gettleman to be a completely different GM from what he is, and likely a much more competent one who would have made other good moves (or at least, would have made fewer stupid moves).
implies that he was in consideration to be picked. That was never the case. Not even in the slightest.
The Giants were NEVER, EVER going to pick Josh Allen. You knew it, I knew it and every Giant fan on the planet knew it. Hindsight posts like this are ridiculous.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
Yes, but here's the key thing: the Giants organisation didn't think the Giants needed to rebuild. Gettleman believed they were good enough for the play-offs and just needed an elite running back added to the mix.
There seems to have consistently been a misreading of the strength/weakness of the roster.
he was trying to win one more with Eli. He got spooked when the entire fan base revolted after Eli was benched. I have no inside info and no facts (just a gut feeling) that here was where the organization was on that draft day...
1. They did not want another uproar by the fan base for drafting a QB at that time
2. They really could not afford another roll of the dice on a first rounder. They needed to pick someone who was as close to a sure thing as possible OR someone who nobody would criticize them for selecting.
3. They could not afford to reach for someone and even QBs are not a sure thing. Nobody thought Allen would be this good or he would have been selected much sooner.
RE: I believe there were reports Shurmur liked Allen most..
If one wants to argue we shouldn't have taken Saquon @ 2, fine. But there was no chance in hell we were taking Allen there. This is revisionist history.
Hindsight threads never work.
Hindsight threads never work.
I wanted Jackson and started a thread saying so two months before that draft. And many of us were warning against drafting Barkley well before that draft.
Drafting Barkley was absolutely catastrophic.
Is it not reasonable to expect more from the people actually in charge of the team? Who cares who the fans wanted? DG and the entire FO fucked up by not taking Josh Allen (or Quinten Nelson, for that matter). Obviously it looks like hindsight to us fans, but I expect a professional GM to actually be able to predict how players will turn out to some agree.
And as Terps salready said: the fact that Barkley at #2 was a terrible pick is not hindsight at all. Many predicted this beforehand and for exactly the reasons it turned out to be a wasted pick too. Namely: positional value, injury proneness, contract value and Barkley not being a north-south back.
On the other hand, if the Giants had a competent enough FO to identify Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as future stars, instead of spending a #2 on a RB, maybe they would have had a FO competent enough to surround those players with the right talent.
Let's be accurate. The problem isnt that he "ignored" these positions. The problem is that they more often than not selected the wrong players.
This gets repeated ad nauseam around here and it's a pet peeve.
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
But people, fans, don’t get paid millions to make these choices, Gettleman does. Plus, even many fans understood, you don’t take a running back with the second pick in the draft.
That’s the issue with having so many voices making these decisions.
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
Not fair Vic. Those of us bemoaning Barkley at # 2 have been consistent. Granted we were happy with his play last week, and anxious for more, but no one was ready to back down on their belief you don’t take a RB. that high.
RB s get beat up, Barkley with his reckless abandon style more so than most. It was a poorly conceived pick and sadly he will probably be on another team next season.
I like what I am seeing from the Giants offense
Taking a RB second as if t were 1970.
I like what I am seeing from the Giants offense
Who's talking about the entire history? Would be nice to have the superstar QB is all.
This is largely correct and not the product of hingsight. Lamar Jackson was considered as behind the main four names, largely because of questions regarding his accuracy, and of course was not the first player taken by the Ravens. Even after they took him, I think they tried to get him to play wide receiver.
As for the four names: Allen was regarded as the most "NFL ready" whatever that really means, but also seen as a more limited arm than Darnold or Rosen.
Mayfield had small character issues, seemed a polarising figure. There was some surprise when the Browns took him #1 over all, and remember they also had the #4 pick. To this date, he hasn't really justified that #1 pick. The wow factor is missing, compared to say Justing Herbert.
Darnold had had an exemplary sophomore season, but then not such a good final year, but the Jets were 100% all in on him and moved up to secure the #3 pick to take him.
And lastly, Josh Rosen. Hailing from a wealthy family, there were questions about his attitude and desire, yet also belief that the guy had maybe the best arm of the four. In his defense, he went to the team with an even worse offensive line than the Giants.
You could argue that all of these college quarterbacks need developing for NFL play and that what actually panned out is that Josh Allen got to play in a better environment than he would have if we had drafted him. Likewise with Baker Mayfield. Without fortifying the offensive line, and I mean to make it a source of strength and not just okay, I doubt any of the above except perhaps Lamar Jackson would have done well with the Giants.
And the above is not hindsight. I followed the three month lead up to the 2018 draft very closely, where all the talk was about the four quarterbacks.
Josh Allen was drafted after Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield,
Drafting players is not an exact science. Most are bad at it. Also most players are good if given an opportunity to succeed. Allen and Manommes have been given that opportunity with outstanding coaching and roster building.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
I would almost bet you any amount of money if the Bills picked with Darnold on the board, they would have picked him. I’m not sure about Baker because he was a guy whose stock rises specifically because of Cleveland, but I’m almost positive Darnold would have been for Buffalo if there. They really basically picked Allen because of his arm strength and the type of weather that is played in Buffalo in Nov/Dec.
DG stated he had SB as the highest rated prospective since Peyton Manning, with a perfect grade. His style of play should never have lead to a perfect grade insofar as he: (1) he was not terribly effective running between the tackles in college; and (2) his pass blocking was well below average for a three down back. These two things alone should have disqualified from from a perfect grade.
From an organization perspective, the team was in major decline and in need of a reboot, featuring a qb who was done. Selecting a running back at 2 overall, with the highest draft pick in decades was malpractice, to say the least.
Now, from a Josh Allen perspective, its disingenuous for anyone on here to say that he was the #2 overall prospect in that draft. There were concerns about him coming out of college. However, his raw tools and feel for the game, he was clearly a top 10 prospect. Thus, if the Giants wanted to select him, the proper move was a trade back to get another high pick and select Allen. If they had taken a qb at #2 it was likely going to be Darnold - which many of us, myself included - wanted. Reality is, we are not paid to get it right, DG and co are and they failed miserably in the 2018 offseason - of which we are still witnessing the impacts today.
It has become clear that the days of a mediocre arm qb winning with his smarts and savy are quickly disappearing. The positions calls for a QB who can scramble in and around the pocket and create a major advantage with off schedule plays and a top to elite arm strength. Guys like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Stafford, Rodgers, etc. That's the way to go in this league and a GM gets paid to make a call on guys like that, we do not. Still not sure yet if the Giants have that guy, but we can clearly say that Jones is not in the Allen Herbert class from a pocket mobility/arm strength perspective.
To say that the Giants offense would not be better with either of those guys under center is simply not true.
The NFL is a results league. Everything else is an excuse. John and Chris Mara own the worst team in the NFL the past 5 years and a team that hasn't won a playoff game in a decade. Gettleman is 16-37. Joe Judge 7-14. They are the 2nd GM and 4th HC since the last playoff win. The problem at this point is the direction fo the franchise being set by John and Chris Mara. Like their father before them they have no idea what they're doing and refuse to hire people who do and get out of the way.
Furthermore, Allen was getting plenty of hype around here. A few of us were constantly discussing his prospects and I was giving throw by throw commentary during his workout on the NFLN. Allen lit it up like a Greek God.
But at the end of the day, it's not about BBI getting it "right". It's about the NYG brass getting it right. And DG took the easy way out - "my mom could have picked Barkley..." - by choosing SB instead grabbing a QB with immense upside. A QB who right now is carving a path to Canton...
Not to say they would have hit on all of them, but at least the percentages would have improved of getting something correct with more volume of picks.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Quote:
In comment 15407644 BestFeature said:
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
That’s not what I recall. And I didn’t want Barkley second and it had nothing to do with Darnold.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Sometimes it works out: in a similar circumstance in 1970, the Steelers took a small school qb with out of this world tools with the first pick in the draft- Terry Bradshaw
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Rosen as well.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Allen was not considered a reach at #7. I don't know what you are remembering. He was in the top-10 mix the whole time.
Daniel Jones at #6 - now that was a reach.
Quote:
In comment 15407644 BestFeature said:
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Irrelevant what a majority or minority posted as to their desire. Still left with what the Giants should not have done.
Sure he would.
Sure he would.
Actually, this is probably the best recourse to take on that side of the debate.
The other ones provided aren't sound nor relevant.
1) the Giants were a few plays away from beating Atlanta and Washington
2) Josh Allen is arguably playing the best quarterback in the NFL right now
3) If the Giants pick Allen, they add another top 10 talent, maybe Allen or Oliver in 2019
So if the Giants had the best quarterback in the NFL and had another good player on the defense, that wouldn't have been enough to win more games?
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Exactly. If Gettleman had made every other move he made with the exception of taking Allen instead of Barkley, I still think the Giants would be a poor team. But taking Allen would require Gettleman to be a completely different GM from what he is, and likely a much more competent one who would have made other good moves (or at least, would have made fewer stupid moves).
The Giants were NEVER, EVER going to pick Josh Allen. You knew it, I knew it and every Giant fan on the planet knew it. Hindsight posts like this are ridiculous.
But DG definitely will be judged for his regime by passing on Allen. In hindsight, that's the pick esp over a running back, regardless of talent.
Jets may have their guy now, Indy went via trade for Wentz which is still TBD. Denver still needs a QB.
Allen certainly was a raw talent. It's almost like you're in a better position picking back a bit to nab Allen.
Barkley was the "safe" pick at the time.
Quote:
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
Yes, but here's the key thing: the Giants organisation didn't think the Giants needed to rebuild. Gettleman believed they were good enough for the play-offs and just needed an elite running back added to the mix.
There seems to have consistently been a misreading of the strength/weakness of the roster.
1. They did not want another uproar by the fan base for drafting a QB at that time
2. They really could not afford another roll of the dice on a first rounder. They needed to pick someone who was as close to a sure thing as possible OR someone who nobody would criticize them for selecting.
3. They could not afford to reach for someone and even QBs are not a sure thing. Nobody thought Allen would be this good or he would have been selected much sooner.
That’s the issue with having so many voices making these decisions.
When did Mara say that?
If he said it before the draft, that was the right response.
Revealing who you liked would have been malpractice.