If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
Josh Allen was a raw prospect that needed support, he wouldn't get that here. Maybe he'd be better than Jones, definitely would be better in improvisational plays when the pocket collapsed would probably make some jaw dropping plays, but he needs coaching and support around him that he wouldn't get here.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Do you think Josh Allen is better then Eli Manning??
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Why? Because this hasn’t been discussed a million times before
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Do you think Josh Allen is better then Eli Manning??
Honestly I hate to be that guy but Eli Manning was an elite QB in 2011 that's about it, he had a fantastic 2007 playoff where he played winning football, but wasn't elite. Eli was NOT a great QB late in his career which is what you're referring to. I'm not sure why Josh Allen being a better QB than Eli so hard to believe. It's possible he never wins two Super Bowls but neither did Brees, neither did Marino, neither has Rodgers. In fact even his brother was a passenger on that second Broncos team so his two SBs have an asterisk near them in my mind. Eli is one of the most clutch and winningest QBs but as far pure QB play Josh Allen has him beat.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
Physically he is more gifted and he has a better arm, but I think there is potential with Jones if he ever got proper coaching like Allen has had.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
If the Giants had a team architect willing to draft Allen — chances are that guy wouldn’t have made the other myriad errors leading to where this team is.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
Physically he is more gifted and he has a better arm, but I think there is potential with Jones if he ever got proper coaching like Allen has had.
But I would add the Allen bump is about his physical traits, not coaching. I think we have to get away from the idea that *coaching* is going to catapult a bad QB into a good one, and a good one into a great one. Jones has serious flaws that will be hard to overcome, now that we're in year three.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
Rosen I did not want. Darnold I thought his flaws could be corrected if he was given the Pat Mahomes treatment. That is why he was my pick of the 3 at #2 overall. I thought he could sit behind Eli for a year. In some ways it is like Fields (the QB who needs to sit but is surer bet) vs. Lance (bigger physical skills and upside, but rawness concerns that ultimately might never reach upside).
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
So if we were to choose Allen then it would be at least in part due to the flaws of the other QBs? Ok, but that's not really a credit to Josh Allen, is it?
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
So if we were to choose Allen then it would be at least in part due to the flaws of the other QBs? Ok, but that's not really a credit to Josh Allen, is it?
Shurmur liked him right? What did he like? It must have been the arm, athleticism, and apparently the kid has a great head for the game and great love of the game.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
Rosen I did not want. Darnold I thought his flaws could be corrected if he was given the Pat Mahomes treatment. That is why he was my pick of the 3 at #2 overall. I thought he could sit behind Eli for a year. In some ways it is like Fields (the QB who needs to sit but is surer bet) vs. Lance (bigger physical skills and upside, but rawness concerns that ultimately might never reach upside).
According to Greg Cosell, Darnold fucks things up that QBs master in high school. And the mechanical flaws are hard to fix. I had no opinion because I never watched any of these guys in college, other than Mayfield who I thought was small.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
A lot of guys here wanted Allen. I wanted Rosen so obviously I was clueless. But there was definitely an Allen contingent on BBI
It was Rosen or Darnold. Allen was barely a blip on the radar. He was raw but had the big arm.
Hindsight threads never work.
I wanted Jackson and started a thread saying so two months before that draft. And many of us were warning against drafting Barkley well before that draft.
I always see this response. Oh the fans wanted Darnold or Rosen, so it really doesn't matter DG took Barkley.
Is it not reasonable to expect more from the people actually in charge of the team? Who cares who the fans wanted? DG and the entire FO fucked up by not taking Josh Allen (or Quinten Nelson, for that matter). Obviously it looks like hindsight to us fans, but I expect a professional GM to actually be able to predict how players will turn out to some agree.
And as Terps salready said: the fact that Barkley at #2 was a terrible pick is not hindsight at all. Many predicted this beforehand and for exactly the reasons it turned out to be a wasted pick too. Namely: positional value, injury proneness, contract value and Barkley not being a north-south back.
He just wanted "best player" at the pick...it's purely a dumb way of looking at it. Gettle is basically like a fan picking a team for his fantasy league. It's almost like he has no regard for how a player would fit or what what vision he has for the team; which is obviously none.
There’s also a segment of the fan base that believes
you take a player and it doesn’t matter how you build the team around them or choose the coaches to develop them. (Those people are idiots.) Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson have tremendous physical ability, but their respective teams have done amazing jobs developing them with coaching, schemes, and talent acquisitions around them, like the Giants once did with Eli Manning. The Giants, OTOH, have done an abominable job in those areas with Daniel Jones. I have zero reason to believe that a NY Giants version of Josh Allen would’ve been brought along slowly with a team that limited pressure on him (running, defense) as he developed and continuously added pieces as he improved. And there’s literally no way that the organization that foisted Jason Garrett on Joe Judge would’ve had the foresight to hire someone like Greg Roman to get the most out of Lamar Jackson. Let’s not forget all of the talent the Ravens have around Jackson either, like one of the sport’s best left tackles and tight ends.
Daniel Jones might not have been good enough even if the Giants
did a good job around him with coaching, development, and talent acquisition. But we’ll never know because they did a piss poor job. Hard to believe it would’ve been different with any of the other QBs they could’ve selected over the past few years.
RE: There’s also a segment of the fan base that believes
you take a player and it doesn’t matter how you build the team around them or choose the coaches to develop them. (Those people are idiots.) Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson have tremendous physical ability, but their respective teams have done amazing jobs developing them with coaching, schemes, and talent acquisitions around them, like the Giants once did with Eli Manning. The Giants, OTOH, have done an abominable job in those areas with Daniel Jones. I have zero reason to believe that a NY Giants version of Josh Allen would’ve been brought along slowly with a team that limited pressure on him (running, defense) as he developed and continuously added pieces as he improved. And there’s literally no way that the organization that foisted Jason Garrett on Joe Judge would’ve had the foresight to hire someone like Greg Roman to get the most out of Lamar Jackson. Let’s not forget all of the talent the Ravens have around Jackson either, like one of the sport’s best left tackles and tight ends.
On the other hand, if the Giants had a competent enough FO to identify Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as future stars, instead of spending a #2 on a RB, maybe they would have had a FO competent enough to surround those players with the right talent.
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
Let's be accurate. The problem isnt that he "ignored" these positions. The problem is that they more often than not selected the wrong players.
This gets repeated ad nauseam around here and it's a pet peeve.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
But people, fans, don’t get paid millions to make these choices, Gettleman does. Plus, even many fans understood, you don’t take a running back with the second pick in the draft.
I believe there were reports Shurmur liked Allen most..
the overwhelming majority here wanted Darnold. I did not like Darnold at USC. Unfortunately I though Rosen would be a netter QB. I had no problem taking Barkley. I liked Nelson too
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
the overwhelming majority here wanted Darnold. I did not like Darnold at USC. Unfortunately I though Rosen would be a netter QB. I had no problem taking Barkley. I liked Nelson too
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
Not fair Vic. Those of us bemoaning Barkley at # 2 have been consistent. Granted we were happy with his play last week, and anxious for more, but no one was ready to back down on their belief you don’t take a RB. that high.
RB s get beat up, Barkley with his reckless abandon style more so than most. It was a poorly conceived pick and sadly he will probably be on another team next season.
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
This is largely correct and not the product of hingsight. Lamar Jackson was considered as behind the main four names, largely because of questions regarding his accuracy, and of course was not the first player taken by the Ravens. Even after they took him, I think they tried to get him to play wide receiver.
As for the four names: Allen was regarded as the most "NFL ready" whatever that really means, but also seen as a more limited arm than Darnold or Rosen.
Mayfield had small character issues, seemed a polarising figure. There was some surprise when the Browns took him #1 over all, and remember they also had the #4 pick. To this date, he hasn't really justified that #1 pick. The wow factor is missing, compared to say Justing Herbert.
Darnold had had an exemplary sophomore season, but then not such a good final year, but the Jets were 100% all in on him and moved up to secure the #3 pick to take him.
And lastly, Josh Rosen. Hailing from a wealthy family, there were questions about his attitude and desire, yet also belief that the guy had maybe the best arm of the four. In his defense, he went to the team with an even worse offensive line than the Giants.
You could argue that all of these college quarterbacks need developing for NFL play and that what actually panned out is that Josh Allen got to play in a better environment than he would have if we had drafted him. Likewise with Baker Mayfield. Without fortifying the offensive line, and I mean to make it a source of strength and not just okay, I doubt any of the above except perhaps Lamar Jackson would have done well with the Giants.
And the above is not hindsight. I followed the three month lead up to the 2018 draft very closely, where all the talk was about the four quarterbacks.
Allen was talked about in 2017. But he had a mediocre 2018, and dropped. Only to rise again leading up to the draft. I blame the Giants less for not taking him than for taking a RB over Nelson and Chubb.
Think about this Mahommes and Deshaun Watson was drafted after Mitch Trubiscky and John Ross!!
Josh Allen was drafted after Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield,
Drafting players is not an exact science. Most are bad at it. Also most players are good if given an opportunity to succeed. Allen and Manommes have been given that opportunity with outstanding coaching and roster building.
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
Josh Allen was a raw prospect that needed support, he wouldn't get that here. Maybe he'd be better than Jones, definitely would be better in improvisational plays when the pocket collapsed would probably make some jaw dropping plays, but he needs coaching and support around him that he wouldn't get here.
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Do you think Josh Allen is better then Eli Manning??
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Quote:
In comment 15407650 prdave73 said:
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Do you think Josh Allen is better then Eli Manning??
Honestly I hate to be that guy but Eli Manning was an elite QB in 2011 that's about it, he had a fantastic 2007 playoff where he played winning football, but wasn't elite. Eli was NOT a great QB late in his career which is what you're referring to. I'm not sure why Josh Allen being a better QB than Eli so hard to believe. It's possible he never wins two Super Bowls but neither did Brees, neither did Marino, neither has Rodgers. In fact even his brother was a passenger on that second Broncos team so his two SBs have an asterisk near them in my mind. Eli is one of the most clutch and winningest QBs but as far pure QB play Josh Allen has him beat.
Quote:
In comment 15407650 prdave73 said:
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
Quote:
In comment 15407652 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407650 prdave73 said:
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
Physically he is more gifted and he has a better arm, but I think there is potential with Jones if he ever got proper coaching like Allen has had.
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Quote:
In comment 15407658 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15407652 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407650 prdave73 said:
Quote:
In comment 15407647 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15407645 prdave73 said:
Quote:
Even if he drafted Josh Allen, Allen would be in the same position DJ is in now imo.. When you ignore Edge LB's, Dline, and Oline, everything else will fail. Josh Allen would be running for his life, as Eli did towards the end of his career and DJ is doing now..
I believe you are being honest, I just don't think you are accurate.
That's your opinion.. Fyi I'm talking about him ignoring those positions in the draft..
Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones and he would be doing better with this club.
Former is impossible to say, but the latter I doubt because he wouldn’t have someone like Brian Daboll as OC or the luxury to suck as he developed. Not to mention the Bills have multiple options better than Jones’s best options.
It's *impossible* to say that Josh Allen is better at football than Daniel Jones, you say? Do you have eyes?
Physically he is more gifted and he has a better arm, but I think there is potential with Jones if he ever got proper coaching like Allen has had.
But I would add the Allen bump is about his physical traits, not coaching. I think we have to get away from the idea that *coaching* is going to catapult a bad QB into a good one, and a good one into a great one. Jones has serious flaws that will be hard to overcome, now that we're in year three.
Quote:
In comment 15407660 Producer said:
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
Rosen I did not want. Darnold I thought his flaws could be corrected if he was given the Pat Mahomes treatment. That is why he was my pick of the 3 at #2 overall. I thought he could sit behind Eli for a year. In some ways it is like Fields (the QB who needs to sit but is surer bet) vs. Lance (bigger physical skills and upside, but rawness concerns that ultimately might never reach upside).
Quote:
In comment 15407660 Producer said:
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
So if we were to choose Allen then it would be at least in part due to the flaws of the other QBs? Ok, but that's not really a credit to Josh Allen, is it?
Quote:
In comment 15407663 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15407660 Producer said:
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
So if we were to choose Allen then it would be at least in part due to the flaws of the other QBs? Ok, but that's not really a credit to Josh Allen, is it?
Shurmur liked him right? What did he like? It must have been the arm, athleticism, and apparently the kid has a great head for the game and great love of the game.
Quote:
In comment 15407663 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 15407660 Producer said:
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Allen was probably the most polarizing of the top QB’s. It seemed that teams generally had him ranked either as #1 or #4. I think in some ways that was like Bechton at OT in 2020. He was physically the most dominant and had most arm strength, but his play really backed up his draft year when he lost a lot of guys to NFL. There was legitimate concern that he was a product of the system (see Sam Howell this year) rather than being the QB that he became.
Yes, he was very polarizing. That is true. He was seen as inaccurate and raw. I think your assessment is correct. But the other QBs had concerns, while maybe not being quite as polarizing. Mayfield was short. Darnold had serious mechanical flaws. Rosen had health and attitude concerns.
Rosen I did not want. Darnold I thought his flaws could be corrected if he was given the Pat Mahomes treatment. That is why he was my pick of the 3 at #2 overall. I thought he could sit behind Eli for a year. In some ways it is like Fields (the QB who needs to sit but is surer bet) vs. Lance (bigger physical skills and upside, but rawness concerns that ultimately might never reach upside).
According to Greg Cosell, Darnold fucks things up that QBs master in high school. And the mechanical flaws are hard to fix. I had no opinion because I never watched any of these guys in college, other than Mayfield who I thought was small.
A lot of guys here wanted Allen. I wanted Rosen so obviously I was clueless. But there was definitely an Allen contingent on BBI
Hindsight threads never work.
Hindsight threads never work.
I wanted Jackson and started a thread saying so two months before that draft. And many of us were warning against drafting Barkley well before that draft.
Drafting Barkley was absolutely catastrophic.
Is it not reasonable to expect more from the people actually in charge of the team? Who cares who the fans wanted? DG and the entire FO fucked up by not taking Josh Allen (or Quinten Nelson, for that matter). Obviously it looks like hindsight to us fans, but I expect a professional GM to actually be able to predict how players will turn out to some agree.
And as Terps salready said: the fact that Barkley at #2 was a terrible pick is not hindsight at all. Many predicted this beforehand and for exactly the reasons it turned out to be a wasted pick too. Namely: positional value, injury proneness, contract value and Barkley not being a north-south back.
On the other hand, if the Giants had a competent enough FO to identify Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson as future stars, instead of spending a #2 on a RB, maybe they would have had a FO competent enough to surround those players with the right talent.
Let's be accurate. The problem isnt that he "ignored" these positions. The problem is that they more often than not selected the wrong players.
This gets repeated ad nauseam around here and it's a pet peeve.
Quote:
that nobody liked Josh Allen came from. He was in the mix with Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. Each had buzz about going #1, including Allen. There was buzz that Shurmur liked him. A few weeks before the draft one pundit had him number one, maybe it was Kiper, I forget. It wasn't until the week before the draft that buzz about Mayfield going #1 solidified.
Maybe not no one but the majority of people who wanted a QB wanted Darnold. I'd venture to bet that more people wanted Barkley than Josh Allen, same with Chubb. Josh Allen was a project. Even if it was 33/33/33 between Darnold, Rosen, and Allen, that's still Monday morning QB. Josh Allen wasn't some no brainer.
But people, fans, don’t get paid millions to make these choices, Gettleman does. Plus, even many fans understood, you don’t take a running back with the second pick in the draft.
That’s the issue with having so many voices making these decisions.
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
SO, no we go from "Barkley is back" to "you can't take a RB that high" because he stepped on someone's foot AFTER the play? The definition of a freak accident that could happen to anyone. And Jones goes from "statement game" to bum because he got concussed trying to score and lead his team? This board is a fucking joke and this thread typifies it.
Not fair Vic. Those of us bemoaning Barkley at # 2 have been consistent. Granted we were happy with his play last week, and anxious for more, but no one was ready to back down on their belief you don’t take a RB. that high.
RB s get beat up, Barkley with his reckless abandon style more so than most. It was a poorly conceived pick and sadly he will probably be on another team next season.
I like what I am seeing from the Giants offense
Taking a RB second as if t were 1970.
I like what I am seeing from the Giants offense
Who's talking about the entire history? Would be nice to have the superstar QB is all.
This is largely correct and not the product of hingsight. Lamar Jackson was considered as behind the main four names, largely because of questions regarding his accuracy, and of course was not the first player taken by the Ravens. Even after they took him, I think they tried to get him to play wide receiver.
As for the four names: Allen was regarded as the most "NFL ready" whatever that really means, but also seen as a more limited arm than Darnold or Rosen.
Mayfield had small character issues, seemed a polarising figure. There was some surprise when the Browns took him #1 over all, and remember they also had the #4 pick. To this date, he hasn't really justified that #1 pick. The wow factor is missing, compared to say Justing Herbert.
Darnold had had an exemplary sophomore season, but then not such a good final year, but the Jets were 100% all in on him and moved up to secure the #3 pick to take him.
And lastly, Josh Rosen. Hailing from a wealthy family, there were questions about his attitude and desire, yet also belief that the guy had maybe the best arm of the four. In his defense, he went to the team with an even worse offensive line than the Giants.
You could argue that all of these college quarterbacks need developing for NFL play and that what actually panned out is that Josh Allen got to play in a better environment than he would have if we had drafted him. Likewise with Baker Mayfield. Without fortifying the offensive line, and I mean to make it a source of strength and not just okay, I doubt any of the above except perhaps Lamar Jackson would have done well with the Giants.
And the above is not hindsight. I followed the three month lead up to the 2018 draft very closely, where all the talk was about the four quarterbacks.
Josh Allen was drafted after Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield,
Drafting players is not an exact science. Most are bad at it. Also most players are good if given an opportunity to succeed. Allen and Manommes have been given that opportunity with outstanding coaching and roster building.