If the Giants had a team architect willing to draft Allen — chances are that guy wouldn’t have made the other myriad errors leading to where this team is.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
I would almost bet you any amount of money if the Bills picked with Darnold on the board, they would have picked him. I’m not sure about Baker because he was a guy whose stock rises specifically because of Cleveland, but I’m almost positive Darnold would have been for Buffalo if there. They really basically picked Allen because of his arm strength and the type of weather that is played in Buffalo in Nov/Dec.
Was a failure from an overall organization perspective, both from a talent evaluation perspective and team evaluation perspective.
DG stated he had SB as the highest rated prospective since Peyton Manning, with a perfect grade. His style of play should never have lead to a perfect grade insofar as he: (1) he was not terribly effective running between the tackles in college; and (2) his pass blocking was well below average for a three down back. These two things alone should have disqualified from from a perfect grade.
From an organization perspective, the team was in major decline and in need of a reboot, featuring a qb who was done. Selecting a running back at 2 overall, with the highest draft pick in decades was malpractice, to say the least.
Now, from a Josh Allen perspective, its disingenuous for anyone on here to say that he was the #2 overall prospect in that draft. There were concerns about him coming out of college. However, his raw tools and feel for the game, he was clearly a top 10 prospect. Thus, if the Giants wanted to select him, the proper move was a trade back to get another high pick and select Allen. If they had taken a qb at #2 it was likely going to be Darnold - which many of us, myself included - wanted. Reality is, we are not paid to get it right, DG and co are and they failed miserably in the 2018 offseason - of which we are still witnessing the impacts today.
It has become clear that the days of a mediocre arm qb winning with his smarts and savy are quickly disappearing. The positions calls for a QB who can scramble in and around the pocket and create a major advantage with off schedule plays and a top to elite arm strength. Guys like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Stafford, Rodgers, etc. That's the way to go in this league and a GM gets paid to make a call on guys like that, we do not. Still not sure yet if the Giants have that guy, but we can clearly say that Jones is not in the Allen Herbert class from a pocket mobility/arm strength perspective.
To say that the Giants offense would not be better with either of those guys under center is simply not true.
Buffalo deserves all the credit they're getting for drafting Allen
but I wonder if they would have chosen him if they had a shot at Darnold. Regardless he was picked by Buffalo and they have developed him into an elite NFL QB surrounded by excellent players. Their GM and HC have done an unbelievable job so far.
The NFL is a results league. Everything else is an excuse. John and Chris Mara own the worst team in the NFL the past 5 years and a team that hasn't won a playoff game in a decade. Gettleman is 16-37. Joe Judge 7-14. They are the 2nd GM and 4th HC since the last playoff win. The problem at this point is the direction fo the franchise being set by John and Chris Mara. Like their father before them they have no idea what they're doing and refuse to hire people who do and get out of the way.
in 2018 and was constantly hyping Allen's potential. So let's not act like Allen wasn't in the mix as the best QB of that year.
Furthermore, Allen was getting plenty of hype around here. A few of us were constantly discussing his prospects and I was giving throw by throw commentary during his workout on the NFLN. Allen lit it up like a Greek God.
But at the end of the day, it's not about BBI getting it "right". It's about the NYG brass getting it right. And DG took the easy way out - "my mom could have picked Barkley..." - by choosing SB instead grabbing a QB with immense upside. A QB who right now is carving a path to Canton...
Unlikely Dave Gettleman would have chosen the correct QBs
in that draft. The mistake was not accepting the Cleveland Brown offer and getting out of the #2 pick for more picks.
Not to say they would have hit on all of them, but at least the percentages would have improved of getting something correct with more volume of picks.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
That’s not what I recall. And I didn’t want Barkley second and it had nothing to do with Darnold.
RE: Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
It would have been a bold move and a gamble to pass on the "generational running back" from our backyard at Penn State to take a qb from Wyoming even though the guy had out of this world tools. The Giants weren't going to do that.
Sometimes it works out: in a similar circumstance in 1970, the Steelers took a small school qb with out of this world tools with the first pick in the draft- Terry Bradshaw
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Rosen as well.
RE: Josh Allen had serious problems with accuracy and was
considered a reach by Buffalo. They were right, good for them.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Allen was not considered a reach at #7. I don't know what you are remembering. He was in the top-10 mix the whole time.
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Irrelevant what a majority or minority posted as to their desire. Still left with what the Giants should not have done.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
If the Giants had a team architect willing to draft Allen — chances are that guy wouldn’t have made the other myriad errors leading to where this team is.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Exactly. If Gettleman had made every other move he made with the exception of taking Allen instead of Barkley, I still think the Giants would be a poor team. But taking Allen would require Gettleman to be a completely different GM from what he is, and likely a much more competent one who would have made other good moves (or at least, would have made fewer stupid moves).
implies that he was in consideration to be picked. That was never the case. Not even in the slightest.
The Giants were NEVER, EVER going to pick Josh Allen. You knew it, I knew it and every Giant fan on the planet knew it. Hindsight posts like this are ridiculous.
wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
Yes, but here's the key thing: the Giants organisation didn't think the Giants needed to rebuild. Gettleman believed they were good enough for the play-offs and just needed an elite running back added to the mix.
There seems to have consistently been a misreading of the strength/weakness of the roster.
he was trying to win one more with Eli. He got spooked when the entire fan base revolted after Eli was benched. I have no inside info and no facts (just a gut feeling) that here was where the organization was on that draft day...
1. They did not want another uproar by the fan base for drafting a QB at that time
2. They really could not afford another roll of the dice on a first rounder. They needed to pick someone who was as close to a sure thing as possible OR someone who nobody would criticize them for selecting.
3. They could not afford to reach for someone and even QBs are not a sure thing. Nobody thought Allen would be this good or he would have been selected much sooner.
RE: I believe there were reports Shurmur liked Allen most..
If one wants to argue we shouldn't have taken Saquon @ 2, fine. But there was no chance in hell we were taking Allen there. This is revisionist history.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
I would almost bet you any amount of money if the Bills picked with Darnold on the board, they would have picked him. I’m not sure about Baker because he was a guy whose stock rises specifically because of Cleveland, but I’m almost positive Darnold would have been for Buffalo if there. They really basically picked Allen because of his arm strength and the type of weather that is played in Buffalo in Nov/Dec.
DG stated he had SB as the highest rated prospective since Peyton Manning, with a perfect grade. His style of play should never have lead to a perfect grade insofar as he: (1) he was not terribly effective running between the tackles in college; and (2) his pass blocking was well below average for a three down back. These two things alone should have disqualified from from a perfect grade.
From an organization perspective, the team was in major decline and in need of a reboot, featuring a qb who was done. Selecting a running back at 2 overall, with the highest draft pick in decades was malpractice, to say the least.
Now, from a Josh Allen perspective, its disingenuous for anyone on here to say that he was the #2 overall prospect in that draft. There were concerns about him coming out of college. However, his raw tools and feel for the game, he was clearly a top 10 prospect. Thus, if the Giants wanted to select him, the proper move was a trade back to get another high pick and select Allen. If they had taken a qb at #2 it was likely going to be Darnold - which many of us, myself included - wanted. Reality is, we are not paid to get it right, DG and co are and they failed miserably in the 2018 offseason - of which we are still witnessing the impacts today.
It has become clear that the days of a mediocre arm qb winning with his smarts and savy are quickly disappearing. The positions calls for a QB who can scramble in and around the pocket and create a major advantage with off schedule plays and a top to elite arm strength. Guys like Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Burrow, Stafford, Rodgers, etc. That's the way to go in this league and a GM gets paid to make a call on guys like that, we do not. Still not sure yet if the Giants have that guy, but we can clearly say that Jones is not in the Allen Herbert class from a pocket mobility/arm strength perspective.
To say that the Giants offense would not be better with either of those guys under center is simply not true.
The NFL is a results league. Everything else is an excuse. John and Chris Mara own the worst team in the NFL the past 5 years and a team that hasn't won a playoff game in a decade. Gettleman is 16-37. Joe Judge 7-14. They are the 2nd GM and 4th HC since the last playoff win. The problem at this point is the direction fo the franchise being set by John and Chris Mara. Like their father before them they have no idea what they're doing and refuse to hire people who do and get out of the way.
Furthermore, Allen was getting plenty of hype around here. A few of us were constantly discussing his prospects and I was giving throw by throw commentary during his workout on the NFLN. Allen lit it up like a Greek God.
But at the end of the day, it's not about BBI getting it "right". It's about the NYG brass getting it right. And DG took the easy way out - "my mom could have picked Barkley..." - by choosing SB instead grabbing a QB with immense upside. A QB who right now is carving a path to Canton...
Not to say they would have hit on all of them, but at least the percentages would have improved of getting something correct with more volume of picks.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Quote:
In comment 15407644 BestFeature said:
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
That’s not what I recall. And I didn’t want Barkley second and it had nothing to do with Darnold.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Sometimes it works out: in a similar circumstance in 1970, the Steelers took a small school qb with out of this world tools with the first pick in the draft- Terry Bradshaw
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
Rosen as well.
What nobody mentions is that the correct choice was not someone other than Barkley, it was trading down. There were (and are) too many holes on this team to waste a top 2 pick on an RB. But Gettleman had to have his shiny object.
Allen was not considered a reach at #7. I don't know what you are remembering. He was in the top-10 mix the whole time.
Daniel Jones at #6 - now that was a reach.
Quote:
In comment 15407644 BestFeature said:
Quote:
If BBI had their way we'd have Sam Darnold who the jury is still out on but he's no Josh Allen. Josh Allen was not a #2 pick worthy player, he was a very raw prospect that had a ton of talent but also poor accuracy in a shitty conference. He was not a guy most people wanted at #2 anymore. Monday morning QB
Yes, because BBI is a monolith that agrees on everything. There was a small vocal contingent of Darnold supporters, but it was FAR from a majority of posters. The only majority agreement from that draft was that we shouldn't use the 2nd pick on a RB. Some defended it, but most hated it.
I completely disagree with this. The vast majority of the board wanted Darnold and then Rosen second. The argument against Barkley was true that you don't take a RB that high in the draft but it was fueled by the desire for Darnold more than anything else
Irrelevant what a majority or minority posted as to their desire. Still left with what the Giants should not have done.
Sure he would.
Sure he would.
Actually, this is probably the best recourse to take on that side of the debate.
The other ones provided aren't sound nor relevant.
1) the Giants were a few plays away from beating Atlanta and Washington
2) Josh Allen is arguably playing the best quarterback in the NFL right now
3) If the Giants pick Allen, they add another top 10 talent, maybe Allen or Oliver in 2019
So if the Giants had the best quarterback in the NFL and had another good player on the defense, that wouldn't have been enough to win more games?
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
The Bills were coming off their first playoff season in nearly 20 years — and instead of sitting on his hands — Beane wrapped up a sequence of events where he traded 6 picks, a starting LT and WR to get Allen.
So I don’t find it believable Allen would be floundering in NY, because honestly the Giants would have needed a better GM to have picked him.
Exactly. If Gettleman had made every other move he made with the exception of taking Allen instead of Barkley, I still think the Giants would be a poor team. But taking Allen would require Gettleman to be a completely different GM from what he is, and likely a much more competent one who would have made other good moves (or at least, would have made fewer stupid moves).
The Giants were NEVER, EVER going to pick Josh Allen. You knew it, I knew it and every Giant fan on the planet knew it. Hindsight posts like this are ridiculous.
But DG definitely will be judged for his regime by passing on Allen. In hindsight, that's the pick esp over a running back, regardless of talent.
Jets may have their guy now, Indy went via trade for Wentz which is still TBD. Denver still needs a QB.
Allen certainly was a raw talent. It's almost like you're in a better position picking back a bit to nab Allen.
Barkley was the "safe" pick at the time.
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wanted Barkley or Darnold. I didn't want Allen. Not at #2 anyway. As others have noted, he had a lot of accuracy questions going all the way back to high school. He also broke the collarbone in his non throwing shoulder and had to have it fixed with plates and screws. A lot of teams passed on Allen.
The problem was not trading with Cleveland. They apparently offered both their second round picks to go from #4 to #2. Both of those picks were at the top of the second round. I would have taken that trade instead of drafting Barkley or Darnold.
At #4 I likely would have taken Nelson, although Allen would have been in the conversation.
This. We could have taken Nelson/B.Chubb at #4 and the N.Chubb & 2 other players (would have had 3 straight #2 picks). Instant rebuild.
Yes, but here's the key thing: the Giants organisation didn't think the Giants needed to rebuild. Gettleman believed they were good enough for the play-offs and just needed an elite running back added to the mix.
There seems to have consistently been a misreading of the strength/weakness of the roster.
1. They did not want another uproar by the fan base for drafting a QB at that time
2. They really could not afford another roll of the dice on a first rounder. They needed to pick someone who was as close to a sure thing as possible OR someone who nobody would criticize them for selecting.
3. They could not afford to reach for someone and even QBs are not a sure thing. Nobody thought Allen would be this good or he would have been selected much sooner.
That’s the issue with having so many voices making these decisions.
When did Mara say that?
If he said it before the draft, that was the right response.
Revealing who you liked would have been malpractice.