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What has happened to the Giants run defense?

Josh in the City : 10/11/2021 11:31 am
To me, the run game was by far the biggest differentiating factor b/w the Cowboys & Giants. Both the ability to run the ball and stop the run. But what on earth has happened to the Giants run defense this season? I know the Cowboys have a good oline and good RB's but the way they manhandled our d-line is something we haven't seen in a long time. I know losing our best tackler in Blake Martinez obviously hurts but that doesn't explain our dline being pushed around like rag dolls.

Was Dalvin Tomlinson that big a loss? Are Austin Johnson and Danny Shelton that horrific? Where has Leonard Williams been all season (for the record, I was not a proponent of allocating that much cap space to a player like him)? Ojulari had 3 sacks in his first 3 games but has been almost non-existent outside of those plays (he's averaging under 3 tackles a game!). Lorenzo Carter and Oshane Ximenes are both horrific players that shouldn't be starters.

To me, this is just another indictment on the GM (in a long list of them). The talent level just isn't there and the talent evaluation process of this organization just seems to be broken. Something needs to change.
A drunk could go for seemingly  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2021 11:32 am : link
5 yards a pop with our run defense. And the tackling sucks too.
They cannot set the edge  
BillT : 10/11/2021 11:32 am : link
That is all.
The Cowboys are the best rushing team in football right now  
japanhead : 10/11/2021 11:33 am : link
so that has a lot to do with it. But outside of Williams, who is overpaid, the Giants have a bunch of JAGs and backup caliber players on the front seven
Honestly,  
robbieballs2003 : 10/11/2021 11:33 am : link
We have a bunch of idiots on D. Guys truly don't understand their run fits. It is fuckin insane for an NFL team and that ultimately comes down to the DC and HC. Fundamentals, huh? Heard that way too much and don't see it. There is more to it but this is a huge problem.
Danny Shelton seems done and Trae Crowder is not a run stuffer  
George from PA : 10/11/2021 11:34 am : link
.
You must have been sleeping for 5 weeks?  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/11/2021 11:34 am : link
lol
Martinez got hurt  
jeff57 : 10/11/2021 11:35 am : link
.
It's the edge  
Joey in VA : 10/11/2021 11:40 am : link
I saw it repeatedly yesterday, our OLBs don't stay wise enough pre snap. They are eyeing the backfield and the QB and not staying square to the LOS. It's football 101, and the Black Picasso is painting with shit basically. They did this under Bettcher too, too many two DL looks waiting to play the pass instead of first establishing the LOS and making the run moot. We played the pass all game and our edge players rushed and dove inside instead staying square and flattening down the LOS.

And this off season is exactly like the one when we let Justin Tuck, Linval Joseph and Antrell Rolle walk and brought in DRC for big money. We paid for DB when we let DL walk and the results are the same. You still win tackle to tackle on both sides. Gettleman got cute and it's again costing us.
Joey +1  
JonC : 10/11/2021 11:43 am : link
and they're soft up the middle, backups are playing NT and our ILBs go backwards when hit by a tailback.
RE: Joey +1  
section125 : 10/11/2021 11:46 am : link
In comment 15408447 JonC said:
Quote:
and they're soft up the middle, backups are playing NT and our ILBs go backwards when hit by a tailback.


Not very stout on the edge either...
We don't have the interior line push  
mattlawson : 10/11/2021 11:46 am : link
And we can't set the edge. JPP and Tuck were great 2-way DE's that also stopped the run very well. We were spoiled for years.
I watched Eli's show the other day  
robbieballs2003 : 10/11/2021 11:50 am : link
And they were showing Strahan's stomp 'em out speech before a game and I saw Reggie Torbor and all I could think about was I'd love to have a Torbor on the edge on this D.
Lots..  
richinpa : 10/11/2021 12:00 pm : link
Martinez out. Run stopper

BJ Hill and Tomlinson. Run stoppers

Peppers playing less. Run stopper

Playing 2 high safety more...

Dallas is a top running team too. Oh..and we can't stop the pass either
RE: Lots..  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15408479 richinpa said:
Quote:
Martinez out. Run stopper

BJ Hill and Tomlinson. Run stoppers

Peppers playing less. Run stopper

Playing 2 high safety more...

Dallas is a top running team too. Oh..and we can't stop the pass either



+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Martinez is out  
bc4life : 10/11/2021 12:33 pm : link
Tomlinson way more athletic than Shelton. Weak LB corps.

I agree mostly; with Joey  
Matt M. : 10/11/2021 12:38 pm : link
The edge is a huge problem. It is too easy to say Martinez got hurt is the reason. The run D looked like shit before he got hurt also. Besides the edge, though, the middle of that D sucks. RBs are consistently getting beyond the DT. It's a combination of things really. Whenever a DL actually gets some penetration, the tackling has been atrocious. A hit at the LOS is a 3 yard gain or more. That simply can't happen consistently.
I said it in another thread  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2021 12:45 pm : link
One guy getting hurt can't be the reason the defense collapses.

If that is the case, the unit is bad. Blake Martinez is so important BECAUSE the defense is poorly constructed.


RE: I agree mostly; with Joey  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15408611 Matt M. said:
Quote:
The edge is a huge problem. It is too easy to say Martinez got hurt is the reason. The run D looked like shit before he got hurt also. Besides the edge, though, the middle of that D sucks. RBs are consistently getting beyond the DT. It's a combination of things really. Whenever a DL actually gets some penetration, the tackling has been atrocious. A hit at the LOS is a 3 yard gain or more. That simply can't happen consistently.


In the Wash game they rushed for a total of 18 yards excluding the QB getting 6 years on 4 runs.

They were "shit" in this game?

They weren't good obviously. But "shit?"

Even in the Atl game - ATl ran for 70 yards even with no Blake. That's "shit?"

RE: I said it in another thread  
Matt M. : 10/11/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15408630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
One guy getting hurt can't be the reason the defense collapses.

If that is the case, the unit is bad. Blake Martinez is so important BECAUSE the defense is poorly constructed.

Very well put.
RE: RE: I agree mostly; with Joey  
Matt M. : 10/11/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15408634 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15408611 Matt M. said:


Quote:


The edge is a huge problem. It is too easy to say Martinez got hurt is the reason. The run D looked like shit before he got hurt also. Besides the edge, though, the middle of that D sucks. RBs are consistently getting beyond the DT. It's a combination of things really. Whenever a DL actually gets some penetration, the tackling has been atrocious. A hit at the LOS is a 3 yard gain or more. That simply can't happen consistently.



In the Wash game they rushed for a total of 18 yards excluding the QB getting 6 years on 4 runs.

They were "shit" in this game?

They weren't good obviously. But "shit?"

Even in the Atl game - ATl ran for 70 yards even with no Blake. That's "shit?"
Those are two terrible offenses.
Tomlinson  
Bernie : 10/11/2021 12:49 pm : link
was the straw the stirred the drink last year. And all of the players said as much at the time. So the Giants let him sign with Minnesota for $10.5/yr with $15.9 guaranteed and used the same money to sign Jackson for $13/yr with $24.5 guaranteed. So far he has done NOTHING to make one believe he was worth that contract and it' blatantly obvious that DT was critical to the success of the D-Line. So now we get to watch the fall out from this colossal miscalculation.
RE: Tomlinson  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15408641 Bernie said:
Quote:
was the straw the stirred the drink last year. And all of the players said as much at the time. So the Giants let him sign with Minnesota for $10.5/yr with $15.9 guaranteed and used the same money to sign Jackson for $13/yr with $24.5 guaranteed. So far he has done NOTHING to make one believe he was worth that contract and it' blatantly obvious that DT was critical to the success of the D-Line. So now we get to watch the fall out from this colossal miscalculation.


These things are all pieces of a bigger puzzle. They have to go spend big on Jackson because they have failed to draft good corners. If they draft better, they can keep a homegrown guy they loved enough to name a team captain.
RE: I said it in another thread  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15408630 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
One guy getting hurt can't be the reason the defense collapses.

If that is the case, the unit is bad. Blake Martinez is so important BECAUSE the defense is poorly constructed.



It's not one guy.

It's a combination of 1 All_Pro tremendous player in Martinez, along with an enormous downgrade losing Tomlinson and Hill vs what they picked up.

Add that with players over-achieving and teams being a bit better than last year's teams thus making things look better than what they really were.

And an exaggeration of fans in the Wash and ATl game equating that with this game.

And sure - some coach. Certainly. But not all coaching. Players have to be accountable too and in some cases they just aren't good enough. We have to recognize that instead of hiding behind that 5-3 end of season stuff that was posted leading into this year.
RE: RE: RE: I agree mostly; with Joey  
giantstock : 10/11/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15408639 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15408634 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15408611 Matt M. said:


Quote:


The edge is a huge problem. It is too easy to say Martinez got hurt is the reason. The run D looked like shit before he got hurt also. Besides the edge, though, the middle of that D sucks. RBs are consistently getting beyond the DT. It's a combination of things really. Whenever a DL actually gets some penetration, the tackling has been atrocious. A hit at the LOS is a 3 yard gain or more. That simply can't happen consistently.



In the Wash game they rushed for a total of 18 yards excluding the QB getting 6 years on 4 runs.

They were "shit" in this game?

They weren't good obviously. But "shit?"

Even in the Atl game - ATl ran for 70 yards even with no Blake. That's "shit?"


Those are two terrible offenses.


But that's not the point. The run defense wasn't shit.

In three of Atl's games this year they ran for 99 yards or above. Not with the Giants.

You and some others can't just ignore this because it doesn't fit your narrative.
If they re-sign Tomlinson  
Matt M. : 10/11/2021 12:57 pm : link
the only way they bring in a guy like Jackson is if Williams is let go, which I am not necessarily opposed to. But, then they still have to find a way to fill Williams' shoes. It is looking more and more like Tomlinson and Hill were critical to the success of the DL unit.

But, keeping the strength of the DL might have meant not improving the secondary, so who's to say how things would turn out.
RE: RE: I said it in another thread  
Bernie : 10/11/2021 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15408649 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15408630 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


One guy getting hurt can't be the reason the defense collapses.

If that is the case, the unit is bad. Blake Martinez is so important BECAUSE the defense is poorly constructed.





It's not one guy.

It's a combination of 1 All_Pro tremendous player in Martinez, along with an enormous downgrade losing Tomlinson and Hill vs what they picked up.

Add that with players over-achieving and teams being a bit better than last year's teams thus making things look better than what they really were.

And an exaggeration of fans in the Wash and ATl game equating that with this game.

And sure - some coach. Certainly. But not all coaching. Players have to be accountable too and in some cases they just aren't good enough. We have to recognize that instead of hiding behind that 5-3 end of season stuff that was posted leading into this year.


1,000%. What is sad is that the front office identifies the need; they just suck at selecting the right talent. This was the case for the later years with Reese and it's the case with Gettleman.
This is the biggest indictment of Gettelman.  
Mike from SI : 10/11/2021 1:04 pm : link
He says the 2 most important things are the o line and stopping the run and he fails by his own metrics. (Focusing on stopping the run is a profoundly stupid metric in today's NFL but that's another story.)
Isn't run defense supposed to be Leonard Williams'  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/11/2021 1:05 pm : link
department?

RE: Isn't run defense supposed to be Leonard Williams'  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/11/2021 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15408688 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
department?


Haven't you heard Dave? Williams' sole responsibility is to just occupy blockers. All for only $22mm/year!
So how does that Hill for Price trade in August look now?  
cosmicj : 10/11/2021 1:38 pm : link
. I liked it at the time but if it hadn’t been done, I think Hill might be headed for a moderately priced second contract with the Giants now.
RE: So how does that Hill for Price trade in August look now?  
Toth029 : 10/11/2021 1:44 pm : link
In comment 15408805 cosmicj said:
Quote:
. I liked it at the time but if it hadn’t been done, I think Hill might be headed for a moderately priced second contract with the Giants now.
l
That's why Judge dealt him more or less.

He was not getting a 2nd contract with NY.

Look at it this way. He's played 35% of snaps in Cincinnati. He played that last year. Maybe he hits FA after all and is priced far less than most expected around here.
Key losses  
Breeze_94 : 10/11/2021 2:01 pm : link
Martinez and Tomlinson were the 2 best run defenders on the roster last year

Factor that in with the regression of Williams, Lawrence, and Peppers
Teams are running to their right-  
hammock man : 10/11/2021 3:13 pm : link
away from Williams- and consistently making 5 yards or more.
RE: It's the edge  
Racer : 10/11/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15408442 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
I saw it repeatedly yesterday, our OLBs don't stay wise enough pre snap. They are eyeing the backfield and the QB and not staying square to the LOS. It's football 101, and the Black Picasso is painting with shit basically. They did this under Bettcher too, too many two DL looks waiting to play the pass instead of first establishing the LOS and making the run moot. We played the pass all game and our edge players rushed and dove inside instead staying square and flattening down the LOS.


What impact if any did Bielma have in keeping the edge setters on task?
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