All current MVP candidates could have been Giants...

In comment 15410268 nygiants16 said:

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Because they arent giants fans, notice none of them posted after the saints game and if they did it was to say Jones really wasnt that inpressive.. They have a schtick and they stick to it and anyone who disagrees with them is just a homer.. They all have admitted to rooting against the giants and basically only care about being right..

Look, if you are going to lie at least be somewhat creative. Because I posted a ton after the Saints game. Just because you potentially have a comprehension and/or recollection problem is really on you, not me. There are decent over the counter options for your issues - like Prevagen.

Further, when have I ever admitted rooting against the Giants? Please provide some evidence and context rather than relying on your hideous memory...

In comment 15410354 speedywheels said:

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None of those guys would have done anything here, given thr personnel giants have had the last three years. Yes u know what’s really worth a discussion? What kind of numbers Jones would have had playing with those teams/personnel. But stick to your narrative!

I don't agree with that premise. That assumes Allen, Mahomes, Herbert and LJax are essentially the same skills wise as Jones. Do you actually believe that nonsense?

Now, I agree that maybe those guys wouldn't have produced as prolifically as they have with their respective teams, but I do think they would have produced more wins. They are just better talents with more resources.

In comment 15410439 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15410268 nygiants16 said: Quote: Because they arent giants fans, notice none of them posted after the saints game and if they did it was to say Jones really wasnt that inpressive.. They have a schtick and they stick to it and anyone who disagrees with them is just a homer.. They all have admitted to rooting against the giants and basically only care about being right.. Look, if you are going to lie at least be somewhat creative. Because I posted a ton after the Saints game. Just because you potentially have a comprehension and/or recollection problem is really on you, not me. There are decent over the counter options for your issues - like Prevagen. Further, when have I ever admitted rooting against the Giants? Please provide some evidence and context rather than relying on your hideous memory...

Maybe not you BW but the other 2 have admitted to rooting avainst the Giants...

If you havnt my apologies for lumping you in

That the rest of the team and the offensive schemes comes with these players. Baltimore had the number 1 defense and rush offense pre and post LJax. Andy Reid makes the playoffs every year with or without Mahomes. BTW how did he do in the SB with no O line. Would he have had Kelce and Tyrek here his first few seasons here. I like Allen but he was no better than Jones until they got him weapons, Diggs helped him turn the corner in his 3rd season. Chargers weapons have been much better for Herbert since he was drafted as well. But the team was still a loser with him last year. Not saying he wouldn’t be a nice pick but would have been a stupid pick for Giants the way Jones played his rookie season and the need for linemen. Rather stupid thread in general. Every team past on LJax and the majority pasted on a lot of great players, take TJ watt for example

They would have failed to maximize - if not outright ruined - all of those guys anyway.

In comment 15410405 bigblue5611 said:

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In comment 15410376 Producer said: Quote: you think it's a coincidence that the most gifted QBs are also the best QBs? Mahomes - Herbert - Jackson - Allen would shine anywhere. I think you should re-watch last years Super Bowl...

It's a logical fallacy to assert the results of a single game against a great peaking defense negates everything Mahomes did until that point. Nobody is saying these QBs don;t have bad games. Take your weak and desperate arguments elsewhere.

Drafting a QB is a crapshoot at best. Surround a young QB with protection and decent weapons and guess what, they will be good. Surround any QB with a crap OL, few weapons and they will suck monkey balls. You don't put Mahomes on the Giants and they are suddenly KC.

In comment 15410496 Producer said:

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It's a logical fallacy to assert the results of a single game against a great peaking defense negates everything Mahomes did until that point. Nobody is saying these QBs don;t have bad games. Take your weak and desperate arguments elsewhere.

No, what you are missing is that we arent downplaying Mahomes skill - what we are saying is what he saw in the SB that led to a bad game is what he would probably see on a weekly basis if he were a Giant. Still a very good QB, but not what he is with KC.

In comment 15410496 Producer said:

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In comment 15410405 bigblue5611 said: Quote: In comment 15410376 Producer said: Quote: you think it's a coincidence that the most gifted QBs are also the best QBs? Mahomes - Herbert - Jackson - Allen would shine anywhere. I think you should re-watch last years Super Bowl... It's a logical fallacy to assert the results of a single game against a great peaking defense negates everything Mahomes did until that point. Nobody is saying these QBs don;t have bad games. Take your weak and desperate arguments elsewhere.

I guess you havnt watched him much this year

I was not sold on DJ coming out of Duke and after the Raiders passed on Josh Allen (edge) that's who I wanted the Giants to take. Had they done so, Herbert would have been the pick in 2020. Given they Giants were highly interested in him when he was a junior, this is not a stretch. Ironic that he ends up on the Chargers.

In comment 15410449 bw in dc said:

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I don't agree with that premise. That assumes Allen, Mahomes, Herbert and LJax are essentially the same skills wise as Jones. Do you actually believe that nonsense? Now, I agree that maybe those guys wouldn't have produced as prolifically as they have with their respective teams, but I do think they would have produced more wins. They are just better talents with more resources.

Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. None of those guys would have much success with the porous OL and throwing to the likes of Slayton as the #1 receiver and having wayne gallman as the #1 RB. Not to mention they would have another 6 INT's on their record thanks to Engram

Lamar Jackson is making chicken salad out of chicken shit as we speak. That team, especially the offense has been completely devastated by injuries.

But they're 4-1 anyway. No excuses needed.

Oh and Justin Herbert was a rookie in a COVID offseason who was thrust into a starting role because a doctor stuck a needle in Tyrod Taylor's lung. He has incompetent coaching and the 32nd ranked OL in the league. No worries - he threw 31 TDs in 15 games. This year he's an MVP candidate despite not having yet reached Gettleman's magic third season.

No excuses needed.

.

In comment 15410587 Go Terps said:

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Lamar Jackson is making chicken salad out of chicken shit as we speak. That team, especially the offense has been completely devastated by injuries. But they're 4-1 anyway. No excuses needed. Oh and Justin Herbert was a rookie in a COVID offseason who was thrust into a starting role because a doctor stuck a needle in Tyrod Taylor's lung. He has incompetent coaching and the 32nd ranked OL in the league. No worries - he threw 31 TDs in 15 games. This year he's an MVP candidate despite not having yet reached Gettleman's magic third season. No excuses needed.

Herbert had one of the worst pass protection OLs in the league last year. Despite that, Herbert was great and had one of the best - if not the best - QBRs when under duress.

That's a force multiplier.

In comment 15410587 Go Terps said:

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Lamar Jackson is making chicken salad out of chicken shit as we speak. That team, especially the offense has been completely devastated by injuries. But they're 4-1 anyway. No excuses needed. Oh and Justin Herbert was a rookie in a COVID offseason who was thrust into a starting role because a doctor stuck a needle in Tyrod Taylor's lung. He has incompetent coaching and the 32nd ranked OL in the league. No worries - he threw 31 TDs in 15 games. This year he's an MVP candidate despite not having yet reached Gettleman's magic third season. No excuses needed.

If you dont think Baltimore's coaching staff and FO is eons better than the Giants -i dont know what to tell you.

is not only the talent superior, they also have an identity and a team philosophy.

I am not quite sure whats the Giants.

Are they a passing or running the ball team?
Do they like to get after the QB?
Do they leave their high paying Corners out on islands? or are they zone?

Theres a lot of broken pieces within this team.

Have more energy than I do… I agree with everything they’re saying, I’m just so beaten down by the organization that I can find better things to do than arguing about how pathetic they are.

I’m shocked there are so many people still making excuses…. My personal opinion is that Jones has shown enough progress to be considered a mid to lower tier starter. I want better than that.

In comment 15410578 speedywheels said:

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In comment 15410449 bw in dc said: Quote: I don't agree with that premise. That assumes Allen, Mahomes, Herbert and LJax are essentially the same skills wise as Jones. Do you actually believe that nonsense? Now, I agree that maybe those guys wouldn't have produced as prolifically as they have with their respective teams, but I do think they would have produced more wins. They are just better talents with more resources. Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. None of those guys would have much success with the porous OL and throwing to the likes of Slayton as the #1 receiver and having wayne gallman as the #1 RB. Not to mention they would have another 6 INT's on their record thanks to Engram

You do realize the Ravens are basically using RBs off the street because they lost their three top RBs in the summer. And they lost their first round draft pick, WR Rashod Bateman. I challenge to to tell me the Ravens have a legit #1 WR.

I do like their TE Andrews.

And their OL has been influx since the start of the season. See the acquisition of Zeitler to fill a G spot (oddly enough, he is playing pretty well).

Plus, that Ravens D is not your a typical Ravens D.

So I disagree - LJax is making chicken salad. Amazing chicken salad...

but man, three of their wins is not something you should rely on on a weekly basis.

KC - Mahomes gets completely off his game with a horrible INT and fumble on the last drive.

Detroit- refs miss a bad delay of game and struggle against a bad detroit team and need a NFL record 66 yard FG and a lucky bounce to win.

Indy - Need a massive comeback with INdy kicker missing a PAT and two field goals and win in OT.

The Ravens either have some 2011 Giants in them or this will catch up to them. The problem is Lamar can make 2-3 quarters of bad play and missed throws go away with a huge half. Its very risky.

I agree. The Ravens have had more than their fair share of serendipity. So it's a fair point.

But there is something about LJax's magic. Because if you don't step on their throats and put them out of their misery, LJax grabs the second chance and drags that team to wins.

In comment 15410691 bw in dc said:

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I agree. The Ravens have had more than their fair share of serendipity. So it's a fair point. But there is something about LJax's magic. Because if you don't step on their throats and put them out of their misery, LJax grabs the second chance and drags that team to wins.

Which is odd, because hes been known to fold. Jackson doesnt need to be superman for 4 quarter. But he cant be inept like he was in the first half against Buffalo, Cleveland, SD, etc...

In comment 15410437 GNewGiants said:

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I think the point that is missed that if we replaced the better QBs with Jones or even back to Eli - that those QBs would be as good as they are now. And I strongly disagree with that. We would be better no doubt but Mahomes wouldnt have a SB already, Allen wouldnt be the betting favorite this year, Lamar/mahomes wouldnt have MVPs to their names either.

I agree with Christian's point about this, which is a bit elusive but it's essentially this: if our GM were the sort who was capable of evaluating these players adequately enough to prioritize taking one of them, he'd likely also be the sort who'd make fewer Gettleman-caliber mistakes and more good moves that are beyond Gettleman's ability.

I think this is behind the "root for losses" mentality. It's not that people want to see the Giants be a losing team. It's the hope that enough losses will result in a total departure from the way they're currently running things. And let's face it: there's ample evidence that "the way they're currently running things" is a far more ominous obstacle preventing success than any of the actual football opponents the Giants face in a season.

In comment 15410700 GNewGiants said:

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In comment 15410691 bw in dc said: Quote: I agree. The Ravens have had more than their fair share of serendipity. So it's a fair point. But there is something about LJax's magic. Because if you don't step on their throats and put them out of their misery, LJax grabs the second chance and drags that team to wins. Which is odd, because hes been known to fold. Jackson doesnt need to be superman for 4 quarter. But he cant be inept like he was in the first half against Buffalo, Cleveland, SD, etc...

There is still a wildness to his game that creates big risk for his team. And he needs to clean that up because the Ravens aren't good enough to have high margins for error.

That fumble last night, for example, near the goal line usually equals a loss, especially when you are trying to dig out of a hole.

In comment 15410700 GNewGiants said:

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In comment 15410691 bw in dc said: Quote: I agree. The Ravens have had more than their fair share of serendipity. So it's a fair point. But there is something about LJax's magic. Because if you don't step on their throats and put them out of their misery, LJax grabs the second chance and drags that team to wins. Which is odd, because hes been known to fold. Jackson doesnt need to be superman for 4 quarter. But he cant be inept like he was in the first half against Buffalo, Cleveland, SD, etc...

I think this is overstated. A guy with his record can't be someone who's "known to fold." He just hasn't had much luck in the 3 playoffs he's appeared in during his 4 year career. He joins a lot of historic QBs in that regard.

4 playoffs.

4 playoff GAMES.

In comment 15410412 GNewGiants said:

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In comment 15410376 Producer said: Quote: you think it's a coincidence that the most gifted QBs are also the best QBs? Mahomes - Herbert - Jackson - Allen would shine anywhere. Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, Ryan Leaf, Josh Rosen were extremely gifted. Probably a few others as well. None of them were considered the best QBs during their time or even close to it.

Actually Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham were considered among the top echelon of QBs. Both Vick and Cunningham at various points in their careers were considered the most dangerous QBs. So yes both those guys would greatly help this team.

If you swapped Jackson for Jones at the start of the year we'd be 4-1. We beat Denver, Atlanta, and Washington. And I promise you we don't end the first quarter in Dallas with a zero on the scoreboard.

Guy has a 34-8 record as a starter, and we keep hearing how he's a gimmick that will get figured out. OK...

In comment 15410893 Go Terps said:

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If you swapped Jackson for Jones at the start of the year we'd be 4-1. We beat Denver, Atlanta, and Washington. And I promise you we don't end the first quarter in Dallas with a zero on the scoreboard. Guy has a 34-8 record as a starter, and we keep hearing how he's a gimmick that will get figured out. OK...

Stop being so negative. At least they fixed the OL.

In comment 15410741 santacruzom said:

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I think this is overstated. A guy with his record can't be someone who's "known to fold." He just hasn't had much luck in the 3 playoffs he's appeared in during his 4 year career. He joins a lot of historic QBs in that regard.

Here's an interesting stat on Jackson. He has more 4th quarter comebacks already this year than his previous 3 years combined. And if you combined all his GW drives and 4th quarter comebacks - he never once threw for 200 yards in any of those games. I just found that really interesting.

Lamar has been put in a great position that he never trails by that much or at all going late into games. This year has been different. He has bailed them out many times this year. It will be interesting to see if he can continue doing this.

In comment 15410893 Go Terps said:

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If you swapped Jackson for Jones at the start of the year we'd be 4-1. We beat Denver, Atlanta, and Washington. And I promise you we don't end the first quarter in Dallas with a zero on the scoreboard. Guy has a 34-8 record as a starter, and we keep hearing how he's a gimmick that will get figured out. OK...

So even though Jackson was awful against the lowly Lions. Even though Jackson scored a whopping 3 points in the first 40 minutes against a defense last night missing 3 secondary guys - yiu are guaranteeing wins and points scored?

Pretty hard to take this seriously. In fact, guaranteeing lamar would have thrown for over 400 yards against a defense like the Saints like Jones did is a guanrantee too? Right...

Ill make a guarantee.... if jackson was our QB for the last 4 years - you would be complaining about him and not wanting to give him another QB contract like you do with Jones now.

In comment 15410878 compton said:

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Actually Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham were considered among the top echelon of QBs. Both Vick and Cunningham at various points in their careers were considered the most dangerous QBs. So yes both those guys would greatly help this team.

Vick was never ever considered a top Qb in his era. He had a few good years but was never in Mannings, Brady, Warner, Favre, and whoever else played.

Cunningham has the record I believe for most runner up MVPs..... but he never led his team to a SB or a deep playoff run outside of Minnesota. He was not in the class of elway, kelly, young, montana,etc.

when they win the lines or at least compete strongly. They have lost a lot when they have not.

I like the QB's mentioned but only Mahomes has made it through the the gauntlet of the NFL playoffs and that was with a HOF coach, elite weapons', strong OL and a defense during the SB year that could get after the QB.

The other three show great promise but they have more to accomplish and right now three of them are on rookie contracts so things can change quickly if they don't capitalize.

I have been lukewarm on Jones. I do not see as of right now you invest a second contract in him. He has also had the worst supporting cast around him from coaches to players then the other four and it is not really close imv.

I don’t think LJax would be as successful here as in Baltimore because Harbaugh and Roman didn’t try to stick a square peg into a round hole. They built on offense to fit the strengths of LJax’s game. Which is why they are a better organization than ours.

However, LJax is so gifted, and a winner, he would make considerably more plays than a guy like Jones. He just as more options on his dashboard. So I think Terps is right to assume we would have more wins because he’s such a great football player…beyond being a great QB.

Hell, one could make an intersection case LJax is the best RB in the league. Or at least in the conversation.

In comment 15410938 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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I have been lukewarm on Jones. I do not see as of right now you invest a second contract in him. He has also had the worst supporting cast around him from coaches to players then the other four and it is not really close imv.

Remember when DG said after drafting Jones that he might take the "Green Bay model" approach and have Jones be the apprentice to Eli for a number of years before the official baton hand-off? Right there showed you just how out of touch DG was with the modern game and not optimizing the potential advantages of a QB rookie deal...

But I digressed. To your point about Jones, is anyone really surprised that Jones has played better with better talent around him? Almost any NFL quality QB is going to do better with more talent - right? The real trick in trying to determine if you really have a franchise QB is whether that QB can still produce good results with less. That he actually has the ability to develop the talent around him. When that's the case, than it's easier to manage cap resource because you don't have to over-commit dollars to one side of the ball - like the offense - to prop up the QB...

With Jones, I don't see that piece at all yet.

and I am not as down on Jones as bw, GT and Producer... but for me it is less about the individual players highlighted in this thread, or any thread.

it is about the complete incompetence of this organization for the past 8-10 years.

Bad GM choices, bad coaching hires, meddling owner, bad draft picks (in may cases, at the top of the draft), bad FA pick ups, suspect position coaching, players not playing above themselves, underachieving, etc...

Yes, there are plenty of bad indiv player choices that could fill 3 BBI's... and this thread hits on a few... but my frustration more about the systemic flaws that have made this franchise a laughing stock of the NFL.

we literally sit here, again in 2021, having little to no idea what we have in our new coach, our #6 draft pick QB, our #2 draft pick Saquon, who is going to run this team next year and whether there is any chance this gets better next year, or the year after... fuking depressing.

Can't imagine why anyone would want to waste energy defending this team or its players on this message board. here is a hint, you are probably wrong and will be proven so over time.

In comment 15411040 LG in NYC said:

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f the NFL. we literally sit here, again in 2021, having little to no idea what we have in our new coach, our #6 draft pick QB, our #2 draft pick Saquon, who is going to run this team next year and whether there is any chance this gets better next year, or the year after... fuking depressing.

That captures it well - another Ground Hog Day Year evolving...

to fit a certain narrative. I've read for years how the NFL is about championships. Nothing else matters, its all about how you do in the playoffs and how many championships you win.

Well, Lamar Jackson hasn't sniffed a championship despite his amazing regular season performances. He's 1-3 in the playoffs with a 56% completion percentage, with 3 TD's and 5 INT's.

Also, GT aren't you the same guy who for years railed against drafting QB's high and basically said you should draft QB's later in the draft and just keep rotating them until their rookie deals run out.

Also, aren't you the same guy who said you wouldn't touch Lamar Jackson when you found out his mother was his agent. I guess you are hoping everyone forgets that fact as you pound your chest and say i told you so.

was turned off by LJax's mother running the show on his contract. I think that bothered all of us who found his prospects interesting.

I won't speak for GT here, but I think he might say that taking that risk would have been worth it if the front office was more stable and reliable - like the Ravens.

you shouldn't talk for him. He said he wouldn't draft LJax when he found out. I remember it like it was yesterday.

I understand it too, its def concerning that he'd make a decision like that.

are QB's who have won SB's on their second/third contracts in the last 20 years. Eli and Ben won it very early in the second contract.

The problems were here well before Dave and have continued. Little returns from high draft picks and drafting overall but I still say it all goes back to losing the lines. I can give him a pass on a lot of things but losing on the lines in year 4 and not having a physical team is inexcusable.

Giant fans can live with a 8-8 a team that at least is imposing its with a aggressive coach maybe being held back by a QB. Ten years of being pushed around is enough.