To Joe Judge fans

Both are important traits for his coach. That said my faith in him has waned.

i dont get the distinction, but as a Giants fan i think the locker room still trusts me, i dont care about press conferences they dont mean anything and never will..

He needs to become a better game manager, if he is not going to specialize on either side of the ball he needs to be better in this aspect..

I dont think his coordinators do him any favors and i think he puts to much confidence in him..

He needs to be mkre agressive but i also tbink he is still learning, i think he needs to hire an oc and dc who are proven that he can trust ao he can concentrate on game management

In comment 15410281 BestFeature said:

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Both are important traits for his coach. That said my faith in him has waned.

You see these traits based on what exactly?

Is another Car Salesman, a caricature of what a coach would look like and act like if my daughter did impression of a football coach. He is slowly getting exposed as such as long as he stays in the bottom of the NFC east. Although if he was winning I'd love him all the same. But bottom line, I have always thought coaching is overrated to an extent and talent is king, which we do not have on this roster. Also to note the players seem to like him a lot.

At best, I see posters saying he should get a 3rd year, but even most of those posters hedge on that, depending on how the rest of this year goes.

I know I liked the hire because it was an atypical, out-of-the-box decision by the Giant brass. I was expecting the business as usual HC with Giant ties, but hiring someone with no ties to the team and no HC history took some guts. It may not work out, he does look in over his head, but I liked the decision-making process.

My main concern is that his failure will convince Mara that the "Giants way" is the right way.

but Judge is starting to remind me a lot of David Fizdale when he was with the Knicks. All talk, talk and talk and no results. Actually, results are going backwards. Shurmur finished with 9 wins in 2 seasons.

No guarantee this team is going to win 2 more games and match it.

...Not much more than that though.

In comment 15410311 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...Not much more than that though.

They do? You call allowing 201 rushing yards playing hard?

And I'm not so sure his "communication" thing isn't all fluff for press conferences.

Yes Toney was wrong and deserved to be pulled off the field, but any college dictator coach would have had a temper tantrum and screamed at him too. So how's that fit with "communicator"?

Our new GM will determine if Judge stays or goes for another year.

If this isn't the case, Metlife may be burned down.

No GM will take the job without having hire/fire power.

Only Special Teams coach that has been successful as a HC is Harbaugh. Lots to learn.

even if it is complete BS.

I like his attitude - I want what he's saying to be true...even if it's not - right now.

as i watched the giants play last year, my overall impression was "out manned, well coached."

it's been a different story this year, and i was hoping/expecting the team to take a step forward, but i'm not willing to call it a wrap just yet.

in the car.

In comment 15410320 richinpa said:

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Our new GM will determine if Judge stays or goes for another year. If this isn't the case, Metlife may be burned down. No GM will take the job without having hire/fire power. Only Special Teams coach that has been successful as a HC is Harbaugh. Lots to learn.

This 100%

In comment 15410313 thedogfather said:

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In comment 15410311 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...Not much more than that though. They do? You call allowing 201 rushing yards playing hard?

Did you actually want to hear other posters' views or did you just want to argue?

-Being brought up the coaching ranks via Saban and BB.
-Ties to SEC which has the best talent in College Football.
-His background as Special Teams coordinator which in my opinion is a great segue way to Head Coach.
-The time and attention he paid to assembling his staff and the amount of coaches on his staff.
- The respect he pays to and his embrace of Giants history since he's been here which was noticeably missing with Mac and Shurmur.
- His response to what the Eagles did in week 17 last year.

What I think Judge has gotten wrong so far:

-Playing Daniel Jones against the Cardinals last year.
-Sitting pretty much everyone out almost this entire offseason
-Losing the Denver game which should have never happened but did thanks to item #2 above.
-Overly conservative game management so far this season, particularly on 4th downs in plus territory.

All that said, I firmly believe Joe Judge is going to be responsible for bringing this franchise back to success.

Judge's failure to utilize timeouts effectively, especially before the half, is atrocious. He seems lost. The blown replay request was bad too.

I am also at a loss to understand 2 things:

First, this ridiculous notion that the first few games of the regular season are an extension of the preseason. NO. Just NO. This thinking is ass backwards. The preseason should be seen as an extension of the regular season and used to get the machine running as optimally as possible before the start. This is especially true given how "light" practices have gotten . Starting fast should be the goal. Starting slow acclimates the team to losing and puts it behind and possibly out early.

Second, I've heard Judge say there is no such thing as momentum in football. He said it is just one play at a time. I understand the need to focus on one play at a time and to have a short memory about bad bounces of the ball, but if he fails to see the momentum shifts then he isn't thinking about how important certain junctures of each game can be and what might need to be done (with play calling for example) to either stop the Giants bleeding or put the dagger in the opponent. This might explain why we haven't gone for fourth down conversions and have wasted precious ends of halves.

btw Belichek and Saban each had to (BB still has to?) do this as well. Both of his mentors want/wanted to play smash mouth, defense first football. It wasn't until about 5-6 years ago Saban modernized his offense and started winning on offense with a spread out passing game featuring prolific WRs. Cooper, Jeudy, Ridley were different types than he'd recruited earlier in his time at Bama.

Belichek still hasn't figured out how to adapt his offense post-Brady. The Cam experiment was a failure. Mac Jones looks good (imo) but the Pats don't seem to want to embrace spreading things out and letting him distribute like he did at Bama.

the winning concepts right now seem to be almost exclusively from the pass first west coast trees. Reid, McVay/Gruden, Mccarthy/Moore, Kingsbury, Daboll. Last night Greg Roman refused to go pass first for the first half and the Ravens were basically shut out. Once they started passing Indy couldnt stop them. Everyone is rightfully lionizing Staley right now. You need to maintain physical elements to make defenses tackle but you can't ignore that you need to score touchdowns in the passing game or you will lose.

Basically everyone needs to run their offensive scheme like Chip Kelly now and if they don't realize that they won't last very long.

In comment 15410363 FatHeadTommy said:

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First, this ridiculous notion that the first few games of the regular season are an extension of the preseason. NO. Just NO. This thinking is ass backwards. The preseason should be seen as an extension of the regular season and used to get the machine running as optimally as possible before the start. This is especially true given how "light" practices have gotten . Starting fast should be the goal. Starting slow acclimates the team to losing and puts it behind and possibly out early.

Yeah, this only worked with the Patriots (if indeed it was the attitude) because they had Tom Brady, a good team, and so little competition from the rest of their division for years and years. It basically added up to a built-in cushion going in to the season that the Giants just don't have.

JJ does a lot of talking and always ends with how he and his coaches need to improve in order to put his players in positions for success. Which is a good quality if it leads to consistency of play and positive results. My opinion is that this hasn’t happened to date. I still am struggling with how soft we play. He talked about blue collar smash mouth football and it is nowhere to be found. No one hits and we still get hurt…lol.
I tired as a fan listening to how NFL talented players continue to make stupid mistakes or just not learn from their mistakes. It’s getting old. Based upon his results to date no one should be happy with his performance. He should be under the microscope each and every day until he gets consistent and positive results.

and play or coach. unlike shurmur who literally had scraps. when you're an offensive coach and can't find you're own choice for offensive coordinator how does that look? i know he wanted stefanski but jesus christ, you've been in the league for decades. how do you have DG finding you coaches?

hal fucking hunter?

we complain about Garrett but garrett is like having vince lomnardi out there compared to the previous staff. it's not paying off in wins right now but i htink the talent on this team has a ways to go.

next year we're most likely going EDGE and ILB heavy early in the draft. i see us getting over the hump soon.

not sure anyone who really liked the job he did last year is pounding the table for him this year. Something changed and I don't know what but the team was way more focused last year than it is now, especially on defense. So are we talking about 2020 or 2021?

Most players that miss all of camp and then have an injury on top of it (and COVID) don't play right away as rookies, having a beef with not playing Toney sooner is ridiculous. You can't put players on the field who don't know what they are doing regardless of ability.

but there is no question the team plays hard for him and likes him. Losing doesn't equate to not playing hard, sorry to burst your bubble.

I am mostly disappointed in the conservative offense crap. He was up front when he came here he is building a program on fundamentals and those things take time. So after Q1 in season 2 is it fair to kill the guy after a Covid season and still being saddled with a GM, OC, and possibly even QB he never wanted? I personally think he is fighting an uphill battle and hope to see him be able to do things his way or in tandem with a GM who shares his philosophies so that we can really accurately assess whether the Joe Judge vision is working or not. Right now you have too many cooks in the kitchen it's hard to tell who's responsible for the foul tasting parts of the dish.

I look at the Giants drafts since he's been here and the shift in mindset to trade back and acquire draft capital there's no doubt he's had some influence. The last two drafts have been better than what we've seen around here in years.
- Andrew Thomas has the makings of a stud LT, arguably the 2nd most important position in football
- Kadarius Toney, look at his potential as a weapon
- Ojulari is flashing and showing more in 5 games than Lo Carter and Ximenes combined in 4 seasons.
- Peart and Lemiux have potential and show big and nasty from the 20' draft
- Solid but unspectacular LB's - Crowder, Coughlin, Brown hold the fort for late round picks
- Hopefully McKinney comes into his own
- There's more too, especially from this draft that we'll see on

I think there are building blocks there, and oh BTW we have a boat load of picks next year and Chicago's no 1 to do additional damage because of this new mindset.

I see the team building elements they are trying to accomplish, I just hope the Giants get out of Judge's way early enough to allow him to build the whole team, staff, and football operations with people fully aligned with his vision. Then we'll see how his program performs.

I'm with Terps on this...
The rebuild hasn't begun yet because you need all timelines to start at once. Allow Judge to pick the GM he wants, attach them at the hip. Give them a few years to implement their vision on staff, QB, whatever. Nothing is off limits. Then you can honestly say whether Joe Judge was the program builder he sold us on or not.

on a staff that includes former head coaches in Jason Garrett and Freddie Kitchens. There is not a lack of football knowledge on the staff. The problems with this team predate Judge and go all the way back to Coughlin. The one constant has been the front office.

He needs to win more games and I think he needs to at least go 3-3 in division.

One thing I am concerned about is his ability to evaluate talent both in players and coaches and how he sees them fitting in a winning team. If you look at the drafts and FA acquisition I am not sure how you can't see he has had very big input in both.

Is he found a good o-line coach this off season. He is a horrible game manager. Acts like a pee-wee football coach. Basically has no offensive or defensive concepts. I’ve interviewed losers like him. All BS talk, but when you get to the real questions you realize they have never done shit. They just piggy back off other’s accomplishments.

Have to look at the tape, but he loses a lot of games if that matters.

In comment 15410458 Giants73 said:

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Is he found a good o-line coach this off season. He is a horrible game manager. Acts like a pee-wee football coach. Basically has no offensive or defensive concepts. I’ve interviewed losers like him. All BS talk, but when you get to the real questions you realize they have never done shit. They just piggy back off other’s accomplishments.

Loser? He made it to the top his profession before age 40 and he's a loser.

Lol, ok guy!

Would we have a better record over the last two seasons with the same roster and a different head coach and coaching staff? John Harbaugh, Andy Reid, Tomlin, BB, McDermott or any other consistently successful coach. I believe we make the playoffs last year and have a 3-2 record this year. I’ve watched a long time and I’ve seen teams build all pro teams on n paper and still suck. There has to be an identity, a and a real system in place as to how you go about it. I hate Dallas and they haven’t won anything major in a long time but they are usually a competitive team. They had 7 losing seasons since Super Bowl 25. They have a plan and stick to it. We are on the Hope system. We hope if we get the right draft pick, the right free agent or get lucky on a coach we can win. The Hope system doesn’t work.

Is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results,

In the NFL, firing a coach every 1-2 years doesn't work, Especially with where this team is at, he is building a different culture, guys started wanting to come here again...

Now we need the right guys, and to rehire a functional strength and conditioning coach

Belichek first year with the Patriots 5-11
Andy Reid started off 5-11 with the Eagles
Parcells was 3-12-1 his first year

Give him some time....

He is winner? I thought he coached the Giants who are 1-4. Most would consider 1-4 a loser

He has speaking skills. With a head coach results are what matters. Those have not been good. Losses are adding up and that will eventually lead to a dismissal if he does not turn the direction of the team around.
Unfortunately I don’t see this ending well but he has a while to go before they make a move. I think DG is gone (why not now?) then the new GM will decide the coach situation.

Any time he talks about what kind of team he wants to have, it speaks to my soul. I love how detail oriented he "appears" to be. While I despise his accent, I love the emotion and conviction in his speech.

Problem is, and I'm going to be patient on this, I'm not seeing much of that vision implemented so far.

In comment 15410540 D HOS said:

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Any time he talks about what kind of team he wants to have, it speaks to my soul. I love how detail oriented he "appears" to be. While I despise his accent, I love the emotion and conviction in his speech. Problem is, and I'm going to be patient on this, I'm not seeing much of that vision implemented so far.

Same for me.

I like what he wants to do. Not sure he knows how.

I am not impressed with him. He constantly curses out his players and has barely any game management skills. He is no Tom Landry.

I have issues with Joe Judge, mostly with his in game decisions and conservative philosophy . I believe that this is the toughest part of coaching and takes time for a novice head coach to master.

I do believe that Judge knows football. I learn a lot listening to his white board analysis. He understands the big picture and the cause and effect of every players responsibility. He also knows defense, offense, and special teams. He is very hands on and a teacher.

He is tough, holds his players to high standards, works them hard, and has them prepared. Despite some pundits who criticize Judge's methods as barbaric the team plays hard for him and embraces his methods.
I do believe that Judge has created a new team culture. It is the concept of team first.

The Giants are competitive in most games but must learn to how to win close games. When they do the team will be in the next phase of development.


I think that it is too early to evaluate Judge's overall effectiveness.

This is his second year with a team that is rebuilding.
He did not create this mess and it will take time to rebuild the team. There is a significant need for infusion of high end talent.

For those who want change because they are frustrated with the results must acknowledge that there cannot be an immediate transformation. There is no fast fix. I don't care if Belicheck or Parcells in his prime , took over this team, the results might be marginally better.

The process of becoming a winning team takes time and if the Giants were to replace Judge the process would restart and the Giants would be set back at least two years.



Hopefully Judge is growing as a head coach he is learning from his mistakes.

To change coaches again after 2 seasons. I mean it s work so well the past two times.

I don’t have a love fest with Joe Judge, but at some pt you have to commit to more than 2 seasons.

In comment 15410574 joeinpa said:

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To change coaches again after 2 seasons. I mean it s work so well the past two times. I don’t have a love fest with Joe Judge, but at some pt you have to commit to more than 2 seasons.

I agree, barring an utter collapse this year, I think you have to give him one more.

But an utter collapse isn't out of the question either.

He has talked many times about the "process" and how he saw how it worked in two different places he coached.

At some point the players and media will turn without results. It happens very quickly nowadays. More so in the NY market. Fair or not it is just a reality.

I am really concerned that he rarely seems to interact with players during the game. It makes me think they don't respect/like him and/or he avoids interaction for some reason.

In comment 15410313 thedogfather said:

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In comment 15410311 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...Not much more than that though. They do? You call allowing 201 rushing yards playing hard?

This reminded me of the great playoff meltdown in SFO when Shockey tossed the ice

We had huge lead and then the D Line just got totally gassed

We either dont have or dont use a D line rotation
Thats killing us

I cannot believe we do not have or cannot find on other practice squads some D lienman that can spell our starters properly.

Teams are running it down our throats and we dont have any real running game ourselves....who was that RB we cut who had a terrific pre-season? Also dare I say Toney should play some RB? not to mention return punts or have Ross return punts?

In comment 15410492 njurygiants said:

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Is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, In the NFL, firing a coach every 1-2 years doesn't work, Especially with where this team is at, he is building a different culture, guys started wanting to come here again... Now we need the right guys, and to rehire a functional strength and conditioning coach Belichek first year with the Patriots 5-11 Andy Reid started off 5-11 with the Eagles Parcells was 3-12-1 his first year Give him some time....

How'd those coaches do their se on years? That matters. Judge got a total pass on his first year. That's fine. It's year 2.

He was signed by the Cowboys Ughhh

But he's a young and inexperienced coach so we need to anticipate a learning curve. It has been a little up and down --last year we saw some very encouraging things with the defense. This year we are seeing good things on the offensive side but the d has taken a step back. All the bitching about the Oline, you have to give him a lot of credit for what they have done with that unit, especially given all the injuries. Wide receivers too and I line what we are seeing from Daniel Jones this year. IMO, fans really overestimate the talent on this roster, especially on the defense. No difference makers on that entire side of the ball.

In comment 15410492 njurygiants said:

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Is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, In the NFL, firing a coach every 1-2 years doesn't work, Especially with where this team is at, he is building a different culture, guys started wanting to come here again... Now we need the right guys, and to rehire a functional strength and conditioning coach Belichek first year with the Patriots 5-11 Andy Reid started off 5-11 with the Eagles Parcells was 3-12-1 his first year Give him some time....

These three HC's all made the playoffs in their second year and BB won the Super Bowl. You want to see a big jump in year 2. How much of that is on Judge is debatable but still........

I need to go back and study the films to see what I saw. There are some good things he does but I saw some bad things which he needs to clean up. He is trying to coach smart football and have a tough Giants team fans can be proud of but I need to look at why most of his team does not actually play tough football and always seem out of position and cannot seem to stop running plays and why he burns time outs for no reason and why he has his cornerbacks playing in the next county and his safety’s can’t cover or tackle but I need to go back and see the films to see if the films show me what I saw and whether he has learned anything in two seasons before I comment. Don’t worry we are going to be alright.

In comment 15410949 greatgrandpa said:

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I need to go back and study the films to see what I saw. There are some good things he does but I saw some bad things which he needs to clean up. He is trying to coach smart football and have a tough Giants team fans can be proud of but I need to look at why most of his team does not actually play tough football and always seem out of position and cannot seem to stop running plays and why he burns time outs for no reason and why he has his cornerbacks playing in the next county and his safety’s can’t cover or tackle but I need to go back and see the films to see if the films show me what I saw and whether he has learned anything in two seasons before I comment. Don’t worry we are going to be alright.

Is it me but if Joe Judge is trying to build a tough team why is it that hardly anyone other than our 2 interior lineman know how to tackle people. This team is soft on defense.

Because Judge pads the roster with special teamers, and we need to trade one because Judge’s pre-season antics had two o linemen retire. Two professionals that have been in the league a long time suddenly retire after spending an off season with this clown.

In comment 15410712 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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In comment 15410492 njurygiants said: Quote: Is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, In the NFL, firing a coach every 1-2 years doesn't work, Especially with where this team is at, he is building a different culture, guys started wanting to come here again... Now we need the right guys, and to rehire a functional strength and conditioning coach Belichek first year with the Patriots 5-11 Andy Reid started off 5-11 with the Eagles Parcells was 3-12-1 his first year Give him some time.... These three HC's all made the playoffs in their second year and BB won the Super Bowl. You want to see a big jump in year 2. How much of that is on Judge is debatable but still........

Were they all subject to a team as devastated by injuries to the back ups of back ups or key players on both sides of the ball, including draft classes, as this Giants team?
Yes JJ has played too cautiously at times, and yes our OC & especially our DC are also having production declines with better players, but this is not the year, at this point, to judge the Judge .
We’ll likely not do well the rest of the season, given injuries weaknesses.
How the coaching staff gets players to respond the rest of the way will be critical to where this staff is next year.
If there’s a GM change, unlikely given ownerships tendencies and how they view separately and together the GM and coaching group, then, who knows.

In comment 15410313 thedogfather said:

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In comment 15410311 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...Not much more than that though. They do? You call allowing 201 rushing yards playing hard?

Playing hard and being set up to fail schematically are two different things.

Never mind the fact this franchise has had exactly one LB in the past 5-7 years, and he's injured now.

The secondary across the board has been a cataclysmic bust, and expecting any three players (alone) to get a pass rush of any consistency - never mind stopping the run themselves - is nonsense.

You guys keep harping on game management skills.
I’m more concerned with the overall. Like off and Def philosophy, building those sides of the ball. I’m sick of hearing about Specials. I see no evidence yet that he knows how to construct a team. Time
Management issues in games is the least of our worries.

of procedural penalties, the special teams don't seem all that great, his decisions on 4th down indicate he's stuck in the 80s, he challenged a play that you're not allowed to challenge, and the defense pretty much gave up the other day. Other than all that, what's not to like?

but let’s be honest , between the Mara’s choices of Jason Garrett and DG he’s pretty much handicapped.