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Media narrative that due to injuries FO/GM get a do over

Tony in Tampa : 10/12/2021 9:50 am
Unless I’m missing some folks the only players out for the season are: Lemieux, Gates, Martinez, and the DB Williams.

All of the other myriad of current injuries should be back on the field, at least by mid-season. While the division and playoffs are long gone (if they were ever in play) there’s no reason why this team can’t be evaluated from: Jones, overall roster, HC, other coaches and GM and determine what will need to be done, who will be retained next year and will this team need to be blown up.

There seems to be a belief by analysis (ESPN) that this rash of injuries means that Gettleman and crew will get a do over and we will have to go into a 5th year of this administration. Not sure why. Do you believe that these injuries will mean a free pass?
I believe it.  
endwerc : 10/12/2021 9:53 am : link
Mara refuses to believe that "the Giants Way" isn't working, and he's looking for any excuse to dismiss the results. Dave might "retire" at the end of the year, but I'd expect to see Abrams as GM in that case. Judge stays. Nothing changes. Pass the hemlock.
The defense has been miserable..  
BamaBlue : 10/12/2021 9:53 am : link
with only 1 notable season ending injury (Martinez). So, I don't think the injury defense will float. Gettleman and Graham are dead-men walking.
It's happened before with NYG  
JonC : 10/12/2021 9:55 am : link
and it could certainly happen again. How much recent proof do you require?
RE: I believe it.  
rsjem1979 : 10/12/2021 9:57 am : link
In comment 15410334 endwerc said:
Quote:
Mara refuses to believe that "the Giants Way" isn't working, and he's looking for any excuse to dismiss the results. Dave might "retire" at the end of the year, but I'd expect to see Abrams as GM in that case. Judge stays. Nothing changes. Pass the hemlock.


One thing you can always count on with the Giants is that they will telegraph their plans thru the media. They did it last year and made it obvious that Gettleman was going to be back, and they'll do the same thing this year one way or another.
There is some truth to it  
Essex : 10/12/2021 10:02 am : link
I mean I would fire Gettleman, but this season has been very bad in terms of injuries. Last week, basically our offense was out. It was insane. What should be the demise of Gettleman is that our defense stinks.
Do I think injuries give a free pass  
Harvest Blend : 10/12/2021 10:02 am : link
of course not and I can't imagine anyone else here does. Unfortunately the only one that matters is the rotten fish head Mara and he'll fuck it up anyway even if there is a change.

If the mindset is that this was a playoff roster without the injuries  
NYGgolfer : 10/12/2021 10:06 am : link
than the FO/GM should get a pass.

Although having that mindset with a below average OL and TEs, no pass rushers, no impactful linebackers and prove-it type seasons needed from both the returning RB and QB may be the bigger question.
I could see  
Silver Spoon : 10/12/2021 10:08 am : link
Johnny Boy telling his puppets to start leaking the injury excuse to the media. All is well.
Even Mara said  
Koffman : 10/12/2021 10:08 am : link
Before the season Mara said that he was tired of explaining to fans why the team wasn't improving.

Here is an excerpt from the article........"I'd be very disappointed if things don't turn around quickly," Mara said, via The New York Post. "I'm starting to get impatient. It's been a while. I'm tired of explaining to fans at the end of every season, 'Things are getting better. We're on the right track.'

"You lose credibility with them."


So, while we may be close to the bottom I think Mara will make changes at year-end if not sooner. Now, the extent of those changes ? Who Knows?

Will he have an all out fire sale and start over? Will he replace Gettleman with a another corporate shill or family member? If the latter expect many more years of asking if this is the "bottom"

These injuries suck but I dnt  
Bleedblue10 : 10/12/2021 10:09 am : link
Think we are as far off as people are thinking. We need a pass rush and we can easily be 4-1 now. Our corners are fine but they are asked to do too much. McKinney has been a disappointment but he’s still young and this has essentially been his first year
Sorry 3-2  
Bleedblue10 : 10/12/2021 10:10 am : link
Not 4-1
The NFL is a war of attrition,  
barens : 10/12/2021 10:14 am : link
and that's the bottom line. It sucks to be 1-4, but the injury bug did hit them big time.

I hate to use Dallas as an example, but they got ravaged last year, came back healthy, and they look pretty darn good now. To blow this up now seems extremely premature IMO.
Even if they let DG go  
JonC : 10/12/2021 10:17 am : link
and some of the coaches, I don't think their cap situation for 2022 or their ability to replace those pricey veterans will allow a great deal of change right away.

I suspect 2022 roster could look a lot like the 2021 roster, plus a new draft class and minus a few vets and whomever the new draft class replaces.
And it's a good example  
JonC : 10/12/2021 10:18 am : link
of why I cautioned against spending open market dollars to fill expensive positional holes on a young unproven roster.
BBI...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 10:19 am : link
...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.

RE: Even if they let DG go  
Angel Eyes : 10/12/2021 10:20 am : link
In comment 15410377 JonC said:
Quote:
and some of the coaches, I don't think their cap situation for 2022 or their ability to replace those pricey veterans will allow a great deal of change right away.

I suspect 2022 roster could look a lot like the 2021 roster, plus a new draft class and minus a few vets and whomever the new draft class replaces.

Well, whose contracts are up after this year? I'm seeing Engram, Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter (don't want to confuse him with Carter Coughlin), Peppers, Ragland, Booker?
I know injuries aren't really forseable  
Dinger : 10/12/2021 10:22 am : link
but a QB who's mobile definitely is exposed to more injury risk. A RB is harder to explain their injuries. But somewhere someone needs to be accountable for the roster makeup that continues to result in poor play and loses. IF they make no changes thats fine. I'll be losing interest steadily over this season. Its truly unwatchable. between lack of sustained success both in game and throughout the season, the extreme commericialization of every game, pregame show post game show, and, for me, the showboating after every play makes me shut it off. I spent the weekend watching travel softball, high school soccer and football. It was great. no commercials, LESS showboating/trash talking, and just refreshing efforts.
Imagine being one of the idiots  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/12/2021 10:22 am : link
that has defended this franchise every year over the past decade? Yikes.
RE: BBI...  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:25 am : link
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.


They have some pretty good players. That's not unusual for bad teams. What they don't have is any elite players who are among the top 5 or 10 at their positions.

They need difference-makers, and they don't have them.
Imagine...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 10:26 am : link
...being miserable for a decade because you are afraid to support that which you are purported to love?
RE: BBI...  
Go Terps : 10/12/2021 10:26 am : link
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.


Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.
Mara blaming injuries  
Biteymax22 : 10/12/2021 10:27 am : link
And staying status quo is very much on the table. He's done it before and made the same excuse.

In reality this is the NFL, everyone deals with injuries, if they cripple you it just means you didn't do an adequate job building depth.
Spotrac estimates NYG at -$8M in 2022 cap space currently  
JonC : 10/12/2021 10:28 am : link
If you cut Solder and Rudolph, you gain $19M in space, but it doesn't create enough to do much. Check out spotrac's page, the 2022 Giants are gonna look a lot like the 2021 Giants.
It is time to end this.  
section125 : 10/12/2021 10:28 am : link
I am probably wrong, but it seems that bad teams have a lot of injuries. Cause or effect, IDK. But if your athletes are not as good as another teams athletes they get hurt more often, especially in a violent game. Good teams get injuries too, but their backups are almost as good as their starters, so the drop off is not as great.

I was willing to see what the draft and FA signings this year would do. It does not seem like the FAs, for what they were paid, are panning out. Just as Jones was starting to use Golladay, both get hurt. Adoree has done little IMV. LW has not sniffed the QB much at all and the line looks like a sieve. Does not seem much return on the dollar.

The draft picks I think are good and I think they have done a better job drafting but the development seems muted.

Time to let DG go, look for a new GM and let him start shuffling pieces to other teams for draft picks and let him evaluate the current staff.
RE: RE: BBI...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 10:28 am : link
In comment 15410396 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




They have some pretty good players. That's not unusual for bad teams. What they don't have is any elite players who are among the top 5 or 10 at their positions.

They need difference-makers, and they don't have them.
I think that there is some elite talent on the roster but I agree that they are a few short of teams that are winning right now.
What's really going to hurt is the teardown. They're a 6 win team  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/12/2021 10:28 am : link
with the cap usage of a playoff contender. They have hammered the salary cap.
"afraid to support"...give me a break  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:29 am : link
You've already copped to self-delusion as a choice. Fine, you do you. Those of us who have had our eyes open to the putrid state of the franchise will continue to do so.
RE: RE: BBI...  
Harvest Blend : 10/12/2021 10:29 am : link
In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.


The teardown should have started a week following the 2017 season. It didn't then and it won't now.
RE: RE: BBI...  
Essex : 10/12/2021 10:30 am : link
In comment 15410396 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




They have some pretty good players. That's not unusual for bad teams. What they don't have is any elite players who are among the top 5 or 10 at their positions.

They need difference-makers, and they don't have them.

Really because Andrew Thomas is looking like he could become one. Leonard Williams is top 5 player at his position. Bradbury was last year. Kadarius Toney had 189 yards in 50% of the snaps. Now, of course, it is a small sample and it could be a fluke, but I would not bet that we won't have difference makers by the end of next year. Jones is trending up. I think there is some talent to work with. I think the injuries are an excuse that is somewhat valid on offense. I think on the defensive side of the ball Gettleman has no excuses and the unit has not performed well. For that reason alone, he should be fired. Will we be great next year? No. Could we be much better with some player growth and a little bit of injury luck. I think so.
TTH  
JonC : 10/12/2021 10:30 am : link
yep.
who are those elite talents?  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:30 am : link
Sure isn't Barkley anymore. Maybe Andrew Thomas could be one of those guys, maybe Toney.

Not seeing anyone else who even has an outside chance of it.
RE: RE: BBI...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 10:31 am : link
In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.
I do.
It's amazing what a couple of elite players can do for several other non-elite players.

Also, if the team is so bad...we're already "torn down," so the transition should be smooth, no?!
Leonard Williams absolutely is not top 5 at his position  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:31 am : link
And Bradberry sure isn't playing like it this season. Last year is looking like a major fluke since he was never more than pretty good at Carolina.
Mara has had 4 different  
joeinpa : 10/12/2021 10:34 am : link
Coaches, and 2 different GM s in the past 7 seasons.

But yea, he s looking for reasons to not make changes, Ok

That the Giants have been lousy, no one can deny. But continuing to hold onto the Marra narrative, “ he won’t change” is just as wrong as the narrative, that as long as he sells tickets, he doesn’t care.

Personally I hope he doesn’t move on from Judge, changing coaches every two years hasn’t worked out so well.

That s a narrative based on fact, not fiction
RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
Go Terps : 10/12/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15410420 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.

I do.
It's amazing what a couple of elite players can do for several other non-elite players.

Also, if the team is so bad...we're already "torn down," so the transition should be smooth, no?!


Your last statement reflects no understanding of:

1) The salary cap penalties of undoing what they did this year
2) The power of sentimentality and nostalgia has over the Giants
RE: Spotrac estimates NYG at -$8M in 2022 cap space currently  
Biteymax22 : 10/12/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15410404 JonC said:
Quote:
If you cut Solder and Rudolph, you gain $19M in space, but it doesn't create enough to do much. Check out spotrac's page, the 2022 Giants are gonna look a lot like the 2021 Giants.


Dixon should be thrown into the "easy cap decision" conversation as well
RE: Leonard Williams absolutely is not top 5 at his position  
Essex : 10/12/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15410421 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
And Bradberry sure isn't playing like it this season. Last year is looking like a major fluke since he was never more than pretty good at Carolina.

Leonard Williams in every statistical category was on the same level as Aaron Donald last year. Aaron Donald might be the number 1 defensive player in the game.
RE: And it's a good example  
AcidTest : 10/12/2021 10:37 am : link
In comment 15410379 JonC said:
Quote:
of why I cautioned against spending open market dollars to fill expensive positional holes on a young unproven roster.


Yup. Signing expensive FAs should be limited to those situations where doing so makes a team a legitimate SB contender, at least "on paper." That was not the Giants. We weren't two or three players away from being a legitimate SB contender before the season. We were at least a dozen players away.
LW is top 5  
JonC : 10/12/2021 10:38 am : link
the problem is a 3-4 DE shouldn't be a cornerstone of your financial structure.
RE: What's really going to hurt is the teardown. They're a 6 win team  
AcidTest : 10/12/2021 10:39 am : link
In comment 15410410 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
with the cap usage of a playoff contender. They have hammered the salary cap.


^This. We are a bad team with no cap room. That is the main reason why despite all of our draft picks next year, I don't think we'll see a much better record in 2022.
RE: RE: Leonard Williams absolutely is not top 5 at his position  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:39 am : link
In comment 15410435 Essex said:
Quote:
Leonard Williams in every statistical category was on the same level as Aaron Donald last year. Aaron Donald might be the number 1 defensive player in the game.


The only season of his career where you can even mention him in the same breath as Donald without being laughed out of the room. Is he playing at that level this year? No.
I think the GM  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 10/12/2021 10:39 am : link
Is likely to retire this year. I don’t think he needs to be forced out.
RE: I think the GM  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:42 am : link
In comment 15410446 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
Is likely to retire this year. I don’t think he needs to be forced out.


He shouldn't last long enough to retire. He should be escorted out of the building holding a box with all his shit in it.

Should have happened two years ago, frankly.
RE: LW is top 5  
AcidTest : 10/12/2021 10:42 am : link
In comment 15410441 JonC said:
Quote:
the problem is a 3-4 DE shouldn't be a cornerstone of your financial structure.


Right. Because in a 3-4 the main pass rushers are OLBs. And it's pass rushers that you want to focus on paying. The problem is that we have no pass rushers, even if we were willing or able to the pay them. We have a bunch of journeymen. So we end up overpaying other players, including 3-4 DEs whose main focus is stopping the run.

Williams and Lawrence would be a lot more effective if we had OLBs that could provide a consistent pass rush and set the edge on run plays. Dallas repeatedly ran wide because we don't, and to get away from Williams and Lawrence.
RE: Mara has had 4 different  
rsjem1979 : 10/12/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15410429 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Coaches, and 2 different GM s in the past 7 seasons.

But yea, he s looking for reasons to not make changes, Ok

That the Giants have been lousy, no one can deny. But continuing to hold onto the Marra narrative, “ he won’t change” is just as wrong as the narrative, that as long as he sells tickets, he doesn’t care.

Personally I hope he doesn’t move on from Judge, changing coaches every two years hasn’t worked out so well.

That s a narrative based on fact, not fiction


I hate to break it to you, but letting Ernie Accorsi replace Jerry Reese with another one of his disciples and pressing forward with the existing roster plus some pricey free agents and an idiotic draft pick isn't "change."

John Mara has not changed anything about his organization's overall philosophy. McAdoo was a casualty of the Eli Manning saga, and Mara let Gettleman throw Shurmur overboard for failing to win with a piece of shit roster. I'm no Shurmur fan, but Gettleman should have been escorted out of the building right behind him.

RE: RE: Leonard Williams absolutely is not top 5 at his position  
Scooter185 : 10/12/2021 10:48 am : link
In comment 15410435 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 15410421 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


And Bradberry sure isn't playing like it this season. Last year is looking like a major fluke since he was never more than pretty good at Carolina.


Leonard Williams in every statistical category was on the same level as Aaron Donald last year. Aaron Donald might be the number 1 defensive player in the game.


From the Post "Or maybe this is the ugly truth no one wants to face: The Giants defense’s strong performance last season, especially during the 5-3 finish, was fueled by a perfect storm of career-best years and was not some starting point to build upon"

https://nypost.com/2021/10/11/the-ugly-truth-about-giants-underachieving-defense/
thanks for that link  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 10:53 am : link
On Bradberry....woof:

Quote:
For his encore season, however, he already has allowed 301 passing yards, four touchdowns and a 117.1 passer rating in five games after those numbers were 455, three and 70.1, respectively, in 15 games. Add in three automatic first-down penalties to extend scoring drives.
RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
djm : 10/12/2021 10:56 am : link
In comment 15410414 Harvest Blend said:
Quote:
In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.



The teardown should have started a week following the 2017 season. It didn't then and it won't now.


Huh? They have been tearing it down and building it back up for ten fucking years now.

Failure doesn't mean inactivity. The Giants most definitely tore it down. They still suck but they definitely rebuilt the roster.

COACHING. It's always coaching. It's why I preached that the Giants better be damn sure the guy they are replacing Coughlin with is a clear cut upgrade and a guy you're confident in, or this cycle could go on forever. I was told Coughlin was too old. Debatable, but maybe. Sadly, we still haven't found an adequate head coach since then.

It's worth pointing out that the Giants have hired 2 young unproven HCs since Shurmur and even Shurmur wasn't exactly a HC with legit experience. He was just another failed experiment that got another shot in NY.

We need a real fucking HC. Judge has all the answers but cannot get his team to win. MAybe he gets another year with a new GM. Yea that's going to solve all our problems. Sure it will.
WTF IS THE GIANTS WAY  
Platos : 10/12/2021 11:01 am : link
i'm tired of hearing this.

hiring people you're familiar with isn't THE GIANTS WAY. everyone does that in every industry.
Free Agency next year will be minimal for the Giants  
Simms11 : 10/12/2021 11:01 am : link
IMO, due to cap situation. They will have to draft well, as they should, but in order to improve the talent, it’s going to have to come from the draft. It’s a good thing they have 5 high draft picks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
Harvest Blend : 10/12/2021 11:02 am : link
In comment 15410477 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15410414 Harvest Blend said:


Quote:


In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.



The teardown should have started a week following the 2017 season. It didn't then and it won't now.



Huh? They have been tearing it down and building it back up for ten fucking years now.

Failure doesn't mean inactivity. The Giants most definitely tore it down. They still suck but they definitely rebuilt the roster.

COACHING. It's always coaching. It's why I preached that the Giants better be damn sure the guy they are replacing Coughlin with is a clear cut upgrade and a guy you're confident in, or this cycle could go on forever. I was told Coughlin was too old. Debatable, but maybe. Sadly, we still haven't found an adequate head coach since then.

It's worth pointing out that the Giants have hired 2 young unproven HCs since Shurmur and even Shurmur wasn't exactly a HC with legit experience. He was just another failed experiment that got another shot in NY.

We need a real fucking HC. Judge has all the answers but cannot get his team to win. MAybe he gets another year with a new GM. Yea that's going to solve all our problems. Sure it will.


Tearing it down by eating shit, not paying aging QB's 20+m a year to make "one more run", not going crazy in FA, accumulating draft assets and not mortgaging the future to pay for the sins of the past.

Just my opinion though I'll certainly concede that the coaching hires have been less than ideal.
and to me  
djm : 10/12/2021 11:05 am : link
the dallas game was nothing. Just another dick punch from a better team. But we'd be ok with that if they were 2-3 right now and hopefully getting some stars back by November. Maybe you fight to a 3-5 or 3-6 record, which aint pretty, but it aint a death march record either. You win 2-3 games in a row and you're heading into December with a legit shot at the playoffs. Shit even 5-7 you'd be alive.

This team wouldn't know how to win an ugly win if it walked right up to them. They refuse to win that early September game that swings the record from god fucking awful to manageable. And why? Because the team doesn't operate itself in a fashion that creates space and opportunity for its talented players. Maybe they don't have enough star talent, the last time they did operate this way was 2015 when the offense scored 427 pts on the backs of Eli and Beckham. Of course the D was historically bad...

Sunday's game was on the defense as usual but they weren't winning that game with every key offensive piece on the shelf, chalk that one up to bad luck and playing a better team. I can't chalk up Washington and ATL to anything other than a bad team doing bad things at bad moments yet still having a shot to win the game, but nope. To me that's coaching.

Don't care about specific play calls anymore. I don't care about FGs from the 40 or going for it. I care about results. I care about the identity of this team. I care about the defense looking like it kind of cares, but not caring like the Calais Campbell cares. Or how Aaron Donald cares. No one plays defense anymore? Wrong, the Giants don't play defense anymore. Fuck everyone associated with that.
the Giants never ever win a fucking thing  
djm : 10/12/2021 11:10 am : link
when the D is bad. Never. That won't change until this franchise "panics" like it did prior to 2016.

Please panic. Overspend. I don't give a fuck anymore.

Or, dump all these players that appear to suck right now and watch them go elsewhere and play to their potential. Go ahead and dump Bradbury, Williams, Ryan, and the rest and let's start this whole thing over again. It should only take 2-3 years.

I give up. So sick of the debates and blaming the players and the coaches and demanding blood every 2 years. Wipe out the GM and bring in a new shiny GM and let him watch Judge fail and then great he gets his own guy and then it's time for a new QB and then we find out the new HC sucks too and on and on the wheel of failure spins.

The Giants need to cheat, lie and steal a real fucking HC/architect and fast. Everything else is bullshit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 11:11 am : link
In comment 15410432 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15410420 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


In comment 15410400 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...is having an emotional breakdown.

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.




Do you watch the rest of the league?

This is a bottom five NFL roster with zero clear bedrock foundational pieces. Maybe Thomas and Toney can rise to that level, but that's it.

This is a complete teardown project.

I do.
It's amazing what a couple of elite players can do for several other non-elite players.

Also, if the team is so bad...we're already "torn down," so the transition should be smooth, no?!



Your last statement reflects no understanding of:

1) The salary cap penalties of undoing what they did this year
2) The power of sentimentality and nostalgia has over the Giants
Intentionally so.

The woe is me here is gross.
Think the roster is only  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 11:22 am : link
Some edge rushers and a hard nosed RB away from being really good. Finally have an o line coach. Gates, Lemeuix will be back next year. Peary showed signs last week, maybe his back has finally healed from offseason. Engram will be gone next year addition by subtraction. Willing to wait and see on A rob. Brad berry and Jackson are good, just need edge to free up dexter and Leo. Have your two DEs facing doubles, if one could ever get one on one. WR Corp looks promising. Major problem is the edge rushers and speed at LB. beside the horrible scared game planning.
Brown Hornet  
Go Terps : 10/12/2021 11:26 am : link
I'd say the self-delusion is even more gross.

You said before the season that the Giants were a playoff team until they weren't. Have they reached that threshold for you yet or is the candle still burning?
Mara will reference  
GiantsRage2007 : 10/12/2021 11:29 am : link
Some dumb stat like we won 4 of our last 8 games (without mentioning we were out of the playoff race by week 6 every single year) or something ridiculous like he's done many times over the last 8 or 9 years to maintain the shitty status quo
Self delusion...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 11:43 am : link
...really?

No sir, I have my feet firmly planted. I am not under some impression that my anger is somehow helpful with regards to the Giants.
I am not pretending that my hot takes are somehow more important than anyone elses.
I tune is on Sunday for enjoyment (I found some on Sunday).

I don't love all of the picks/acquisitions but I cheer for them. I don't like all of the decisions, but I support them.

I don't wallow in misery and I don't take enjoyment in the failures of others. Not being emotionally critical makes that a little easier.

I do think that the Giants playoff opportunity may well be gone. The injuries are pretty damning.

The delusions come from feeling like the fans know...they don't. Losing sucks, but it doesn't make those that don't know, suddenly smarter than the one's doing the actual losing.

But, the Giants are my 2nd favorite team, so maybe I have an emotional advantage. My #1 is in position to play for a state championship.
I blame Mara..  
Sean : 10/12/2021 11:51 am : link
Giants never take a long view approach and he always preaches playoffs. It’s failed miserably.
I'm no football savant  
Greg from LI : 10/12/2021 11:54 am : link
But it doesn't take a genius to recognize that Dave Gettleman is a pathetic failure of a GM.
Poor drafting leads to overspending in FA  
MarvelousMike : 10/12/2021 11:57 am : link
They seem to be unable to draft and then KEEP any of the few quality players they draft. Each year there are a bunch of players that were high draft picks being let go and having to sign high priced FA in attempt to fill in the gap. Over the last few years, how many CBs have been drafted and why aren't they still here?!?

"IF" DG is let go, besides replacing him with somebody "OUTSIDE" the organization, something needs to be done with the scouting and drafting. We have two 1st, a 2nd, and two 3rd next April. Giants cannot be coming back in 2025 wondering why none need to be resigned then or in 2026.
Do you believe that these injuries will mean a free pass?  
Spider43 : 10/12/2021 12:12 pm : link
I'm expecting it, yes. I'm still hoping against hope that Mara sprouts some balls however.
RE: And it's a good example  
TyreeHelmet : 10/12/2021 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15410379 JonC said:
Quote:
of why I cautioned against spending open market dollars to fill expensive positional holes on a young unproven roster.


Excellent point and a huge miscalculation from Gettleman. You can't tie up your cap like that when you are still building. Big mistake by the front office that should result them in cleaning house.
RE: These injuries suck but I dnt  
giantstock : 10/12/2021 12:15 pm : link
In comment 15410368 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
Think we are as far off as people are thinking. We need a pass rush and we can easily be 4-1 now. Our corners are fine but they are asked to do too much. McKinney has been a disappointment but he’s still young and this has essentially been his first year


IS that you Dave? 4-1?

Thanks for the laugh.

We were right there to win the Denver game? Or was it the "crummy" Cowboys you think?
RE: Spotrac estimates NYG at -$8M in 2022 cap space currently  
giantstock : 10/12/2021 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15410404 JonC said:
Quote:
If you cut Solder and Rudolph, you gain $19M in space, but it doesn't create enough to do much. Check out spotrac's page, the 2022 Giants are gonna look a lot like the 2021 Giants.


Get draft picks by continuing to trade down.
RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
Section331 : 10/12/2021 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15410409 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:


I think that there is some elite talent on the roster but I agree that they are a few short of teams that are winning right now.


Where is the "elite talent"? Toney and Thomas, and that is it. Jones may prove to be an above average starter, but I don't see elite. Ojulari looks like he could develop into a very nice player, but if he were elite, we'd be seeing flashes of it now.
RE: BBI...  
santacruzom : 10/12/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15410380 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:

I expect that DG will be gone along with a couple of starters but the team is not without good players and I expect that the roster will be viewed as such.


That's not much of an accomplishment though. No team, no matter how bad, is "without good players." Hell, I'd wager that no bad team in history has been without good players.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
TyreeHelmet : 10/12/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15410658 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15410409 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:




I think that there is some elite talent on the roster but I agree that they are a few short of teams that are winning right now.



Where is the "elite talent"? Toney and Thomas, and that is it. Jones may prove to be an above average starter, but I don't see elite. Ojulari looks like he could develop into a very nice player, but if he were elite, we'd be seeing flashes of it now.


Toney had one good game( looked great but its one game). And Thomas has been good but those guys are not elite talent yet. Promising yes but not elite.

Lets be honest the Giants have question marks all over the roster and the coaching staff is a complete unknown...
Who are all these elite talents in the league  
ghost718 : 10/12/2021 12:31 pm : link
LT,Reggie,Barry Sanders,Calvin Johnson

You see any guys like that? I don't.There's a lot of hype,and that goes pretty far.But as far as what's on the field,I'd have to say that's an exaggeration.
RE: Think the roster is only  
TheBlueprintNC : 10/12/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15410541 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Some edge rushers and a hard nosed RB away from being really good. Finally have an o line coach. Gates, Lemeuix will be back next year. Peary showed signs last week, maybe his back has finally healed from offseason. Engram will be gone next year addition by subtraction. Willing to wait and see on A rob. Brad berry and Jackson are good, just need edge to free up dexter and Leo. Have your two DEs facing doubles, if one could ever get one on one. WR Corp looks promising. Major problem is the edge rushers and speed at LB. beside the horrible scared game planning.


The new GM needs to recognize, evaluate and add talent -Giants are a few players on D away from being a very good competitive team.. D needs more talent. The OL tackles look like they are coming together and Hopefully we get the Guard to play, Hernandez has been good this season too -especially w Solder next to him.. . But this line is coming together..

Need to Keep adding talent at LBr and DE -They have the QB the line needs help for rotational purpose but 3 players are very good already. This will be a D rich draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
santacruzom : 10/12/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15410477 djm said:
Quote:


Huh? They have been tearing it down and building it back up for ten fucking years now.


I see the "tearing it down," but I disagree about the "building it back up."
RE: RE: I think the GM  
Dnew15 : 10/12/2021 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15410450 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 15410446 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:


Quote:


Is likely to retire this year. I don’t think he needs to be forced out.



He shouldn't last long enough to retire. He should be escorted out of the building holding a box with all his shit in it.

Should have happened two years ago, frankly.


For those asking...

DG will "retire" the FO will offer him another job within the organization..DG will accept...then he'll "assist" with the hiring of the new GM since they value his knowledge, experience and expertise...then they'll hire Kevin Abrams after an "exhaustive" search...

And there....my friends...you have the Giants Way...or as it used to be referred - Jints Central.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
santacruzom : 10/12/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15410715 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15410477 djm said:


Quote:




Huh? They have been tearing it down and building it back up for ten fucking years now.



I see the "tearing it down," but I disagree about the "building it back up."


To provide a specific example, sure, trading Odell Beckham in a better-late-than-never move could be construed as part of a tear-down, but can you argue that there was a reciprocal rebuild there?

And filling the positional hole Beckham left behind with Golden Tate and his absurd contract was like satire.
RE: WTF IS THE GIANTS WAY  
bw in dc : 10/12/2021 12:55 pm : link
In comment 15410486 Platos said:
Quote:
i'm tired of hearing this.

hiring people you're familiar with isn't THE GIANTS WAY. everyone does that in every industry.


The "Giants Way" is this...

RE: Think the roster is only  
giantstock : 10/12/2021 12:57 pm : link
In comment 15410541 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Finally have an o line coach. Gates, Lemeuix will be back next year. Peary showed signs last week, maybe his back has finally healed from offseason.


This is the same garbage we've heard now for many years and you are just repeating the same tired stuff.

1-- Every year posters like you claim that we NOW have an OL coach.

2-- Sure Gates with his broken leg will bounce back without a doubt, right?

3-- And Lemieux - of course he’ll just step right in and be fine, right? After all, he is a Giant and any Giant that is young will automatically improve because Giants fans say-so, right? Because Lemieux is such a lock at OL?

4-- Sure ofc with Peart it MUST BE the injury, right? This is the same tired stuff we heard about Solder for 2 straight years, now we have a new guy to use the injury excuse. When a NY Giant has an injury, he can't perform while nearly many other players on other teams are banged up with injuries yet they seem to perform.

5-- When are posters such as yourself going to stop and just say you are tired of looking forward to an OL that will at best just hold it-s own rather than try to dominate the LOS?
RE: What's really going to hurt is the teardown. They're a 6 win team  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/12/2021 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15410410 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
with the cap usage of a playoff contender. They have hammered the salary cap.


It's just awful awful resource management. Instead of making the OL and pass rush a priority, Gettleman wasted 40% of the team's draft picks the past 3 years on DBs... and STILL had to shell out huge FA money for starting DBs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: BBI...  
chick310 : 10/12/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15410658 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 15410409 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:




I think that there is some elite talent on the roster but I agree that they are a few short of teams that are winning right now.



Where is the "elite talent"? Toney and Thomas, and that is it. Jones may prove to be an above average starter, but I don't see elite. Ojulari looks like he could develop into a very nice player, but if he were elite, we'd be seeing flashes of it now.


Agree Section, there really is no elite talent on the roster. Some talented players at a few positions (LT, WR, DL, maybe 1-2 in Secondary) that could be considered good, but not elite.

Fans overstating the roster during the offseason is one thing. But doing it while the losses pile up in front of their eyes just shows a lack of objectivity.
Nah  
M.S. : 10/12/2021 1:35 pm : link

Gettleman is gone.

The "retirement speech" he will give after the season has already been drafted for him.
RE: RE: Think the roster is only  
Brown_Hornet : 10/12/2021 2:42 pm : link
In comment 15410729 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15410541 Giants73 said:


Quote:


Finally have an o line coach. Gates, Lemeuix will be back next year. Peary showed signs last week, maybe his back has finally healed from offseason.



This is the same garbage we've heard now for many years and you are just repeating the same tired stuff.

1-- Every year posters like you claim that we NOW have an OL coach.

2-- Sure Gates with his broken leg will bounce back without a doubt, right?

3-- And Lemieux - of course he’ll just step right in and be fine, right? After all, he is a Giant and any Giant that is young will automatically improve because Giants fans say-so, right? Because Lemieux is such a lock at OL?

4-- Sure ofc with Peart it MUST BE the injury, right? This is the same tired stuff we heard about Solder for 2 straight years, now we have a new guy to use the injury excuse. When a NY Giant has an injury, he can't perform while nearly many other players on other teams are banged up with injuries yet they seem to perform.

5-- When are posters such as yourself going to stop and just say you are tired of looking forward to an OL that will at best just hold it-s own rather than try to dominate the LOS?
To be fair, we also hear the antithesis of the things that you are suggesting that we always hear.

No one is "settling."
The bar has not been lowered.
No one is ok with mediocrity.

Some of us recognize that we have less control of the situation than we do controlling the weather.

I have bad news for you guys.  
compton : 10/12/2021 2:43 pm : link
Gettleman is going nowhere this offseason. He has probably another 2 more years before Mara says enough. Do you guys really believe for one moment that Gettleman is on the hot seat? Knowing how Mara operates my bet is Gettleman has a longer leash than most realize. So guys we got another year or two of this. Take your blood pressure meds--you will need it.
RE: I have bad news for you guys.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/12/2021 2:44 pm : link
In comment 15410972 compton said:
Quote:
Gettleman is going nowhere this offseason. He has probably another 2 more years before Mara says enough. Do you guys really believe for one moment that Gettleman is on the hot seat? Knowing how Mara operates my bet is Gettleman has a longer leash than most realize. So guys we got another year or two of this. Take your blood pressure meds--you will need it.


These type of definitive statements are stupid.
Gettleman came in and said  
JB_in_DC : 10/12/2021 3:16 pm : link
"There are basic truths — you have to run the ball, you have to stop the run, you have to rush the passer. If you are seriously deficient in any one of those three areas, it makes it tough"

The team he has built cannot do any of those things. They are among the league's worst in all three areas. So by his own - old school - logic Gettleman has failed miserably. It was a bad strategy, poorly executed. Now its Gettleman's turn.
RE: RE: I have bad news for you guys.  
compton : 10/12/2021 3:20 pm : link
In comment 15410973 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15410972 compton said:


Quote:


Gettleman is going nowhere this offseason. He has probably another 2 more years before Mara says enough. Do you guys really believe for one moment that Gettleman is on the hot seat? Knowing how Mara operates my bet is Gettleman has a longer leash than most realize. So guys we got another year or two of this. Take your blood pressure meds--you will need it.



These type of definitive statements are stupid.


We will see.
Two first round picks  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 10/12/2021 3:23 pm : link
likely both in the top 15. DG cannot be the one making those elections.
Not sure what the narrative will be  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/12/2021 3:27 pm : link
lots of the season still to play. I think DG is gone regardless. Depending how things play out it can go a lot of ways.

Mara was hoping for a competitive team. If the losses pile up, blow-outs, locker room whispering, boos at home, fire Judge chants it could be ugly. At that point I don't the narrative can be anything other than about Mara. Would he then fire himself as well as all family members involved in football decisions? Ten years of lousy football may be enough to do that but who knows.
RE: RE: RE: Think the roster is only  
Jimmy Googs : 10/12/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15410969 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 15410729 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15410541 Giants73 said:


Quote:


Finally have an o line coach. Gates, Lemeuix will be back next year. Peary showed signs last week, maybe his back has finally healed from offseason.



This is the same garbage we've heard now for many years and you are just repeating the same tired stuff.

1-- Every year posters like you claim that we NOW have an OL coach.

2-- Sure Gates with his broken leg will bounce back without a doubt, right?

3-- And Lemieux - of course he’ll just step right in and be fine, right? After all, he is a Giant and any Giant that is young will automatically improve because Giants fans say-so, right? Because Lemieux is such a lock at OL?

4-- Sure ofc with Peart it MUST BE the injury, right? This is the same tired stuff we heard about Solder for 2 straight years, now we have a new guy to use the injury excuse. When a NY Giant has an injury, he can't perform while nearly many other players on other teams are banged up with injuries yet they seem to perform.

5-- When are posters such as yourself going to stop and just say you are tired of looking forward to an OL that will at best just hold it-s own rather than try to dominate the LOS?

To be fair, we also hear the antithesis of the things that you are suggesting that we always hear.

No one is "settling."
The bar has not been lowered.
No one is ok with mediocrity.

Some of us recognize that we have less control of the situation than we do controlling the weather.


Some of us recognize that? So you think the other posters are confused over the control they have and it results in them post dissenting views of the team?
a lot of you love to wallow in it...  
BillKo : 10/12/2021 3:45 pm : link
...DG isn't coming back.

There will be a new GM making those first two picks.

Mara will have that epiphany to go outside the org like his dad did in 1979.

Mark. It. Down.

Happy days are here again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE: a lot of you love to wallow in it...  
darren in pdx : 10/12/2021 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15411094 BillKo said:
Quote:
...DG isn't coming back.

There will be a new GM making those first two picks.

Mara will have that epiphany to go outside the org like his dad did in 1979.

Mark. It. Down.

Happy days are here again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think DG will be gone (I felt that he would retire after this season regardless of results, just a feeling, not based on anything), but you have to realise that it's very possible that they can hire someone worse. Just because he's gone doesn't mean anything if the new guy isn't any better.
RE: RE: Mara has had 4 different  
joeinpa : 10/12/2021 4:40 pm : link
In comment 15410453 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 15410429 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Coaches, and 2 different GM s in the past 7 seasons.

But yea, he s looking for reasons to not make changes, Ok

That the Giants have been lousy, no one can deny. But continuing to hold onto the Marra narrative, “ he won’t change” is just as wrong as the narrative, that as long as he sells tickets, he doesn’t care.

Personally I hope he doesn’t move on from Judge, changing coaches every two years hasn’t worked out so well.

That s a narrative based on fact, not fiction



I hate to break it to you, but letting Ernie Accorsi replace Jerry Reese with another one of his disciples and pressing forward with the existing roster plus some pricey free agents and an idiotic draft pick isn't "change."

John Mara has not changed anything about his organization's overall philosophy. McAdoo was a casualty of the Eli Manning saga, and Mara let Gettleman throw Shurmur overboard for failing to win with a piece of shit roster. I'm no Shurmur fan, but Gettleman should have been escorted out of the building right behind him.


Going to a guy who was the architect of two Super Bowl wins was a bad idea?

RE: RE: RE: Mara has had 4 different  
rsjem1979 : 10/12/2021 4:44 pm : link
In comment 15411181 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15410453 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 15410429 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Coaches, and 2 different GM s in the past 7 seasons.

But yea, he s looking for reasons to not make changes, Ok

That the Giants have been lousy, no one can deny. But continuing to hold onto the Marra narrative, “ he won’t change” is just as wrong as the narrative, that as long as he sells tickets, he doesn’t care.

Personally I hope he doesn’t move on from Judge, changing coaches every two years hasn’t worked out so well.

That s a narrative based on fact, not fiction



I hate to break it to you, but letting Ernie Accorsi replace Jerry Reese with another one of his disciples and pressing forward with the existing roster plus some pricey free agents and an idiotic draft pick isn't "change."

John Mara has not changed anything about his organization's overall philosophy. McAdoo was a casualty of the Eli Manning saga, and Mara let Gettleman throw Shurmur overboard for failing to win with a piece of shit roster. I'm no Shurmur fan, but Gettleman should have been escorted out of the building right behind him.




Going to a guy who was the architect of two Super Bowl wins was a bad idea?


Not conducting a legitimate GM search was a mistake, yes.
Meh  
Thegratefulhead : 10/12/2021 4:49 pm : link
I am circling the drain. The need a company to come in and evaluate every single one of their processes. Take away the family jobs, just pay them their salaries and let them go to the Maldives and get massages.

Get them the fuck out of decision making.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Mara has had 4 different  
joeinpa : 10/12/2021 7:24 pm : link
In comment 15411188 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411181 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15410453 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 15410429 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Coaches, and 2 different GM s in the past 7 seasons.

But yea, he s looking for reasons to not make changes, Ok

That the Giants have been lousy, no one can deny. But continuing to hold onto the Marra narrative, “ he won’t change” is just as wrong as the narrative, that as long as he sells tickets, he doesn’t care.

Personally I hope he doesn’t move on from Judge, changing coaches every two years hasn’t worked out so well.

That s a narrative based on fact, not fiction



I hate to break it to you, but letting Ernie Accorsi replace Jerry Reese with another one of his disciples and pressing forward with the existing roster plus some pricey free agents and an idiotic draft pick isn't "change."

John Mara has not changed anything about his organization's overall philosophy. McAdoo was a casualty of the Eli Manning saga, and Mara let Gettleman throw Shurmur overboard for failing to win with a piece of shit roster. I'm no Shurmur fan, but Gettleman should have been escorted out of the building right behind him.




Going to a guy who was the architect of two Super Bowl wins was a bad idea?




Not conducting a legitimate GM search was a mistake, yes.


Well Ernie probably recommended Gettleman.

Not saying it was the correct choice. I was rebuffing the suggestion that Mara wouldn’t be making changes if the year plays out poorly
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/12/2021 7:28 pm : link
EA did a solid for his friend DG in recommending him to Mara. And though it wasn't his intention, he set this franchise back years.

If Gettleman is shown the door @ season's end-God willing-Mara better not listen to people in the 'Giants family'. This organization desperately needs outside blood, a person who can come in & give a fair & honest assessment on what's wrong & how it can be fixed.

In short, Mara needs to get the fuck out of his comfort zone. It sure as hell isn't working.
The team was already 1-3  
Matt M. : 10/12/2021 7:59 pm : link
and with or without Barkley and Jones they were likely to lose on Sunday. The way this team has played, been coached, and handled from top to bottom leave no level of confidence we would improve on last year's 6 wins. In fact, I don't think they hit that mark this season. How can Gettleman be retained after 4 years of this? He completely retooled the roster, so this is his team.
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