I really hope he is fired or forced to resign but given the Giant's way I would not be so sure. Why are most people so confident that he will not be here next year?
If you remember back in December 2019 the Giants planted this pathetic puff piece when it was uncertain whether Gettleman would be fired. I wonder if we'll see any bullshit like this now. Pathetic PR Bullshit - ( New Window )
In comment 15411415 Sean said: He’s 16-37.
To save face, much like TC. He should be fired obviously.
Remember Matt Millen was 30-100 as a GM? Or some pathetic display like that? It took the Lions going 0-16 in 2008 for them to wake the fuck up and get rid of his ass.
But I'm comfortable saying that its likely. Gettleman even seemed to acknowledge this in his presser before the year where he pretty much said if you don't perform in this league, you're out.
The reality is that this is now 100% Dave Gettleman's team, there's no more "Jerry Reese left him a bad roster". He's been here 4 years, has hired 2 different coaches and just finished a large spending spree. Guess what, the team is still no better than it was when he got here.
Remember this too, Gettleman is in his 70's and on his second GM job. Its not a scenario like Judge where you hired a 38 year old on his first job and you have to be cognizant that there will be learning curves. Gettleman is what he will be, there isn't going to be any major change in his performance at this point in his career.
But I'm comfortable saying that its likely. Gettleman even seemed to acknowledge this in his presser before the year where he pretty much said if you don't perform in this league, you're out.
The reality is that this is now 100% Dave Gettleman's team, there's no more "Jerry Reese left him a bad roster". He's been here 4 years, has hired 2 different coaches and just finished a large spending spree. Guess what, the team is still no better than it was when he got here.
Remember this too, Gettleman is in his 70's and on his second GM job. Its not a scenario like Judge where you hired a 38 year old on his first job and you have to be cognizant that there will be learning curves. Gettleman is what he will be, there isn't going to be any major change in his performance at this point in his career.
Great post.
Could they really fire Judge and leave Gettleman in place?
The fallout here on BBI and in the press would be unbelievable.
It's possible they fire neither Judge nor Gettleman and instead replace Garrett and Graham, but leaving Gettleman in place is just asking for more of the same and would confirm that the Giants are an ossified organisation.
RE: Could they really fire Judge and leave Gettleman in place?
The fallout here on BBI and in the press would be unbelievable.
It's possible they fire neither Judge nor Gettleman and instead replace Garrett and Graham, but leaving Gettleman in place is just asking for more of the same and would confirm that the Giants are an ossified organisation.
I would bet my mortgage that does not happen. I think Gettleman is fired and Judge retained.
In fact, I think the Mara's will look for any excuse to keep him. A 3-4 win season will be hard to excuse, but 6-7 wins? We'll hear about injuries, how the team finished strong, the young players are coming along, blah, blah, blah.
In fact, I think the Mara's will look for any excuse to keep him. A 3-4 win season will be hard to excuse, but 6-7 wins? We'll hear about injuries, how the team finished strong, the young players are coming along, blah, blah, blah.
I don’t see it. Mara knows where the wind is blowing with this fanbase. When he’a booed off the field at Strahan’s ceremony, he’s not bringing Gettleman back.
RE: Could they really fire Judge and leave Gettleman in place?
although I think its best for the team. The issue is, if you fire Gettleman, do you also fire Judge. If you don't fire the HC, you're limited in the candidates you can bring in as GM.
However, if you fire everyone, Jones (and any other worthwhile offensive player) has to learn his third system in four years. Not optimal.
So the only argument for keeping Gettleman I think is continuity and the "Giants Way." This is a recipe for mediocrity. As painful as it will be, I think you have to clean house.
although I think its best for the team. The issue is, if you fire Gettleman, do you also fire Judge. If you don't fire the HC, you're limited in the candidates you can bring in as GM.
However, if you fire everyone, Jones (and any other worthwhile offensive player) has to learn his third system in four years. Not optimal.
So the only argument for keeping Gettleman I think is continuity and the "Giants Way." This is a recipe for mediocrity. As painful as it will be, I think you have to clean house.
When has the general manager hired the head coach here? You do not need to fire Judge to bring in a new GM. The new GM will work with Judge and probably outlast him.
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
You make it sound like these jobs grow on trees. I don’t see it being an issue. Judge probably gets an additional year and if it doesn’t work out he will have a say in the next head coach.
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
You make it sound like these jobs grow on trees. I don’t see it being an issue. Judge probably gets an additional year and if it doesn’t work out he will have a say in the next head coach.
I don't know, another way of looking at it is there aren't a lot of hot candidates out there either. If you're in demand, do you wait for a position where you can hire everyone or do you take a job where some of your success is dependent on a the previous guy's hires? What if the coach that's there already doesn't share your personnel philosophy? Training?
I don't want any impediments to the Giants hiring the best person for the job. I think an existing coach is a negative.
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
Depends on what you mean by respectable. Being one of 32 GMs is still a coveted job. Doesn't matter what team. A prospective first time GM is probably going to be okay with sticking with Judge if he's offered the job on that condition.
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
Depends on what you mean by respectable. Being one of 32 GMs is still a coveted job. Doesn't matter what team. A prospective first time GM is probably going to be okay with sticking with Judge if he's offered the job on that condition.
Why would you ever tap a guy to turn around your franchise that has been a horror show for a decade and say, "oh, btw, you need to keep the HC (who will probably be somewhere around 10-23 as a career record." That almost makes as much sense as every other half measure the Giants have taken over the last decade." They need to step out of their comfort zone.
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
I’m surprised by this take. Why hasn’t the injury excuse worked with recent head coaches? McAdoo & Shurmur? This idea that Mara is super patient is off base imo, he has fired coaches often with short leases.
Gettleman got this year based on what looked to be a good working relationship with Judge last year. I’m assuming you think they’ll finish with about 7 wins to think DG is returning. If they go 7-10, I think there’s a chance.
I’m seeing 4-13 with a stadium full of opposing fans and Mara booed off the stage at Strahan’s ceremony. For an owner who cares about optics, Gettleman won’t be back under that scenario.
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
Don't worry an the iceberg, it's just free shaved ice for everyone
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
The thing I struggle with - can they really afford to give the "one more season and then it's both of your heads" ultimatum when you're sitting on what hopefully is a top 5 pick and another top ~15 pick?
Isn't this just begging for more important decisions being done on a patch-the-holes-to-win-now basis?
It reeks of the type of decision making that got us here.
How on earth could you possibly justify bringing him back? Might as well just tell your fans you don't give a shit.
While its not a lock he is sent off to pasture, its gotta' be pretty likely and I think you captured the right sentiment above.
Mara has been banging his head against the wall looking for a winning team (and chairs and garbage cans too) and leaving Getts in place sends too much of a message of "patience, let's stay the course".
were severely overmatched on gamedays. Perhaps Judge and his staff are proven to be in the same boat by the end of 2021, and I do think DG being shown the door is warranted at the moment. But, Mara does not always make the decision to clear house. He often does not, it's often half measures and decisions of comfort, imv. I've got to think his stomach is churning at the possibility of changing the GM again, the coaches, and starting over after such a brief period of time.
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
The thing I struggle with - can they really afford to give the "one more season and then it's both of your heads" ultimatum when you're sitting on what hopefully is a top 5 pick and another top ~15 pick?
Isn't this just begging for more important decisions being done on a patch-the-holes-to-win-now basis?
It reeks of the type of decision making that got us here.
Yep, and I just don't know if Mara will pull the trigger.
I’ve opted to pick up a shift at the hospital this Sunday
First game I will have missed it 10+ years. Mara is going to alienate loyal fans if he keeps trotting out this garbage product out on Sundays and keep the people in charge of said garbage product employed
any amount of money you want to bet, that if the Giants season continues like this and ends badly, DG will be wacked by the spring, if not sooner. Or he will resign. Or he will be re-assigned, whatever, he won't be GM next year if this season shits the bed for 17 games like it has thus far.
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
any amount of money you want to bet, that if the Giants season continues like this and ends badly, DG will be wacked by the spring, if not sooner. Or he will resign. Or he will be re-assigned, whatever, he won't be GM next year if this season shits the bed for 17 games like it has thus far.
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
Yep. It’s a contrarian view to say otherwise. I think he will get whacked mid season if this continues.
it's about the likelihood the new GM will want to start over, and will Mara agree to it. If you think it's one big slam dunk you haven't paid attention to NYG since Coughlin was ushered out.
If you remember back in December 2019 the Giants planted this pathetic puff piece when it was uncertain whether Gettleman would be fired. I wonder if we'll see any bullshit like this now. Pathetic PR Bullshit - ( New Window )
Oh yes, I remember that well. Pat Hanlon called in some favors to get that propaganda printed.
Because he has the title,which means he's got a target on his back
Drop the gun and take the cannoli sooner than that please.
It doesn't need to be Monday, but need to do before end of the season or right at the end of the season. Need to be ahead of the game on the search, trump other teams that are interested in attractive candidates, let people know there is the job opening so they can figure out what their sensible rebuild plan would be in an interview.
Also need to consider what to do by trade deadline in terms of marketing any assets.
Plenty to do...
RE: If not just about firing the GM or the HC, etc
it's about the likelihood the new GM will want to start over, and will Mara agree to it. If you think it's one big slam dunk you haven't paid attention to NYG since Coughlin was ushered out.
My hope is Mara realizes that the half measures taken since then are why the Giants are stuck where they are and finally nukes it and gives the new GM free reign
any amount of money you want to bet, that if the Giants season continues like this and ends badly, DG will be wacked by the spring, if not sooner. Or he will resign. Or he will be re-assigned, whatever, he won't be GM next year if this season shits the bed for 17 games like it has thus far.
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
We've had 2 GM's in 15 years, the last 10 of which have been miserable. I'm going to guess that the GM is in the room with John Mara far more often than the HC is, so Mara has more of a personal relationship there.
If this season ends as miserably as it has started, then yes, DG will "retire", but if they finish 5-3 again? I'm not pushing my chips in on that bet.
RE: I don't do contrarian simply for the sake of it
I was not targeting you, more in general of BBI thinking Mara won’t fire someone. DG is toast. Your point about wholesale changes is valid though. I think they’ll hire a GM from the outside and do an arranged marriage with Judge. I don’t expect wholesale changes.
I would be shocked if DG or Abrams are back barring a strong finish down the stretch.
slew of W's could sway the minds of decision makers, and make it a bit more palatable for fans.
At this point, there's not much wiggle room for free agency, and the draft will be based on the scouting staff in place. So, realistically, changing GM may not make a huge difference. DG has left limited ability to effect much player personnel change next year, so this is basically the team for next year.
Behind the scenes power may shift away from DG. Dunno who it shifts to: don't want the Maras picking up the slack, and don't think Judge has earned it.
I can easily see DG and Judge staying, if DG doesn't decide to retire on his own.
On the flip side, John Mara is desperate to get the Giants out of the basement. Hence his short fuse on coaches, the win one last one with Eli, the multiple spending sprees in an effort to win now. He may just blow the whole thing up, especially if Jones doesn't work out at QB, and the late season rally doesn't materialize.
2022 looking much like 2021 is a point I've been making, due to the cap crunch they've created for next season. Of course, they'll be able to add another draft class and each player will have another year of experience under their belt, but it sure doesn't feel like this roster is on an upward trajectory.
Bears and Washington, all of which should be out of the hunt by then. What happens if they win the last three games to end with "the arrow pointing up"? I don't think Mara's that short sighted, but odder things have happened.
RE: It's a long season. The Giants close with the Eagles
Bears and Washington, all of which should be out of the hunt by then. What happens if they win the last three games to end with "the arrow pointing up"? I don't think Mara's that short sighted, but odder things have happened.
My biggest point is he cares greatly about optics. He could sell Gettleman after 2020 due to all the optimism around Judge. DG is out of lives here.
A prospective first time GM is probably going to be okay with sticking with Judge if he's offered the job on that condition.
That's the problem though. We'd potentially be weeding out stronger resumes because those types of candidates rightfully want their own coach. If Judge shits the bed the following year then we're looking at another mid-regime coaching change which hurts player development in my opinion.
Yup.
Last year, the mood was that the team was on the way, add a few pieces and we could compete.
Now, we've added a few (high priced) pieces, and the mood is that we're here, and WTF? This is it?
The team has been rebuilt. And it doesn't look good.
I said in another thread, 58-91 since 2012. The debates about was Jones worth #6 or Barkley #2 are nothing but distractions. If the franchise was built on a solid foundation we could absorb injuries or a bad draft pick.
10 years of consistent losing with double digit loss seasons more often than not represents a complete and total organizational failure.
We need the entire organization evaluated by an outside firm.
What the fuck? Lol.
To save face, much like TC. He should be fired obviously.
Remember Matt Millen was 30-100 as a GM? Or some pathetic display like that? It took the Lions going 0-16 in 2008 for them to wake the fuck up and get rid of his ass.
The reality is that this is now 100% Dave Gettleman's team, there's no more "Jerry Reese left him a bad roster". He's been here 4 years, has hired 2 different coaches and just finished a large spending spree. Guess what, the team is still no better than it was when he got here.
Remember this too, Gettleman is in his 70's and on his second GM job. Its not a scenario like Judge where you hired a 38 year old on his first job and you have to be cognizant that there will be learning curves. Gettleman is what he will be, there isn't going to be any major change in his performance at this point in his career.
The reality is that this is now 100% Dave Gettleman's team, there's no more "Jerry Reese left him a bad roster". He's been here 4 years, has hired 2 different coaches and just finished a large spending spree. Guess what, the team is still no better than it was when he got here.
Remember this too, Gettleman is in his 70's and on his second GM job. Its not a scenario like Judge where you hired a 38 year old on his first job and you have to be cognizant that there will be learning curves. Gettleman is what he will be, there isn't going to be any major change in his performance at this point in his career.
Great post.
It's possible they fire neither Judge nor Gettleman and instead replace Garrett and Graham, but leaving Gettleman in place is just asking for more of the same and would confirm that the Giants are an ossified organisation.
It's possible they fire neither Judge nor Gettleman and instead replace Garrett and Graham, but leaving Gettleman in place is just asking for more of the same and would confirm that the Giants are an ossified organisation.
I would bet my mortgage that does not happen. I think Gettleman is fired and Judge retained.
I don’t see it. Mara knows where the wind is blowing with this fanbase. When he’a booed off the field at Strahan’s ceremony, he’s not bringing Gettleman back.
However, if you fire everyone, Jones (and any other worthwhile offensive player) has to learn his third system in four years. Not optimal.
So the only argument for keeping Gettleman I think is continuity and the "Giants Way." This is a recipe for mediocrity. As painful as it will be, I think you have to clean house.
However, if you fire everyone, Jones (and any other worthwhile offensive player) has to learn his third system in four years. Not optimal.
So the only argument for keeping Gettleman I think is continuity and the "Giants Way." This is a recipe for mediocrity. As painful as it will be, I think you have to clean house.
When has the general manager hired the head coach here? You do not need to fire Judge to bring in a new GM. The new GM will work with Judge and probably outlast him.
You make it sound like these jobs grow on trees. I don’t see it being an issue. Judge probably gets an additional year and if it doesn’t work out he will have a say in the next head coach.
Quote:
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
You make it sound like these jobs grow on trees. I don’t see it being an issue. Judge probably gets an additional year and if it doesn’t work out he will have a say in the next head coach.
I don't know, another way of looking at it is there aren't a lot of hot candidates out there either. If you're in demand, do you wait for a position where you can hire everyone or do you take a job where some of your success is dependent on a the previous guy's hires? What if the coach that's there already doesn't share your personnel philosophy? Training?
I don't want any impediments to the Giants hiring the best person for the job. I think an existing coach is a negative.
Depends on what you mean by respectable. Being one of 32 GMs is still a coveted job. Doesn't matter what team. A prospective first time GM is probably going to be okay with sticking with Judge if he's offered the job on that condition.
Quote:
would take the job and have to be saddled with Judge? I had high hopes for Judge, and it looked promising in early December of last year. I just don't see where this guy is learning from mistakes and improving. He's got 12 more games to show otherwise.
Depends on what you mean by respectable. Being one of 32 GMs is still a coveted job. Doesn't matter what team. A prospective first time GM is probably going to be okay with sticking with Judge if he's offered the job on that condition.
Why would you ever tap a guy to turn around your franchise that has been a horror show for a decade and say, "oh, btw, you need to keep the HC (who will probably be somewhere around 10-23 as a career record." That almost makes as much sense as every other half measure the Giants have taken over the last decade." They need to step out of their comfort zone.
I’m surprised by this take. Why hasn’t the injury excuse worked with recent head coaches? McAdoo & Shurmur? This idea that Mara is super patient is off base imo, he has fired coaches often with short leases.
Gettleman got this year based on what looked to be a good working relationship with Judge last year. I’m assuming you think they’ll finish with about 7 wins to think DG is returning. If they go 7-10, I think there’s a chance.
I’m seeing 4-13 with a stadium full of opposing fans and Mara booed off the stage at Strahan’s ceremony. For an owner who cares about optics, Gettleman won’t be back under that scenario.
Don't worry an the iceberg, it's just free shaved ice for everyone
The thing I struggle with - can they really afford to give the "one more season and then it's both of your heads" ultimatum when you're sitting on what hopefully is a top 5 pick and another top ~15 pick?
Isn't this just begging for more important decisions being done on a patch-the-holes-to-win-now basis?
It reeks of the type of decision making that got us here.
While its not a lock he is sent off to pasture, its gotta' be pretty likely and I think you captured the right sentiment above.
Mara has been banging his head against the wall looking for a winning team (and chairs and garbage cans too) and leaving Getts in place sends too much of a message of "patience, let's stay the course".
And that is obviously the wrong message...
Quote:
it would track very well with Mara's recent decision history. And, changing GMs under condition of retaining the HC and QB would be a major half measure I wouldn't want to be saddled with in a new job. Too much change for NYG, the injuries just might give the excuse to stay the course.
The thing I struggle with - can they really afford to give the "one more season and then it's both of your heads" ultimatum when you're sitting on what hopefully is a top 5 pick and another top ~15 pick?
Isn't this just begging for more important decisions being done on a patch-the-holes-to-win-now basis?
It reeks of the type of decision making that got us here.
Yep, and I just don't know if Mara will pull the trigger.
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
Yep. It’s a contrarian view to say otherwise. I think he will get whacked mid season if this continues.
Oh yes, I remember that well. Pat Hanlon called in some favors to get that propaganda printed.
It doesn't need to be Monday, but need to do before end of the season or right at the end of the season. Need to be ahead of the game on the search, trump other teams that are interested in attractive candidates, let people know there is the job opening so they can figure out what their sensible rebuild plan would be in an interview.
Also need to consider what to do by trade deadline in terms of marketing any assets.
Plenty to do...
My hope is Mara realizes that the half measures taken since then are why the Giants are stuck where they are and finally nukes it and gives the new GM free reign
The Giants have been very very open to firing people. Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants = inactivity or complacence?
We've had 2 GM's in 15 years, the last 10 of which have been miserable. I'm going to guess that the GM is in the room with John Mara far more often than the HC is, so Mara has more of a personal relationship there.
If this season ends as miserably as it has started, then yes, DG will "retire", but if they finish 5-3 again? I'm not pushing my chips in on that bet.
I was not targeting you, more in general of BBI thinking Mara won’t fire someone. DG is toast. Your point about wholesale changes is valid though. I think they’ll hire a GM from the outside and do an arranged marriage with Judge. I don’t expect wholesale changes.
I would be shocked if DG or Abrams are back barring a strong finish down the stretch.
At this point, there's not much wiggle room for free agency, and the draft will be based on the scouting staff in place. So, realistically, changing GM may not make a huge difference. DG has left limited ability to effect much player personnel change next year, so this is basically the team for next year.
Behind the scenes power may shift away from DG. Dunno who it shifts to: don't want the Maras picking up the slack, and don't think Judge has earned it.
I can easily see DG and Judge staying, if DG doesn't decide to retire on his own.
On the flip side, John Mara is desperate to get the Giants out of the basement. Hence his short fuse on coaches, the win one last one with Eli, the multiple spending sprees in an effort to win now. He may just blow the whole thing up, especially if Jones doesn't work out at QB, and the late season rally doesn't materialize.
I think that would be bad though. Win or else mandates have gotten this franchise in this mess. Always a short term priority.
My biggest point is he cares greatly about optics. He could sell Gettleman after 2020 due to all the optimism around Judge. DG is out of lives here.
If that happens, I would seriously question my fandom.
I love the Giants. I just want them to love me back.
That's the problem though. We'd potentially be weeding out stronger resumes because those types of candidates rightfully want their own coach. If Judge shits the bed the following year then we're looking at another mid-regime coaching change which hurts player development in my opinion.
I don't know how you good-faith argue that he should remain with another bad season.
I'd say a lot of things here but we don't kink shame in this building, Melvin.
Last year, the mood was that the team was on the way, add a few pieces and we could compete.
Now, we've added a few (high priced) pieces, and the mood is that we're here, and WTF? This is it?
The team has been rebuilt. And it doesn't look good.
Quote:
I love the Giants. I just want them to love me back.
I'd say a lot of things here but we don't kink shame in this building, Melvin.
Hahaha well played.
5 games in.
Hope is gone.
Again.
I said in another thread, 58-91 since 2012. The debates about was Jones worth #6 or Barkley #2 are nothing but distractions. If the franchise was built on a solid foundation we could absorb injuries or a bad draft pick.
10 years of consistent losing with double digit loss seasons more often than not represents a complete and total organizational failure.
We need the entire organization evaluated by an outside firm.
It's the same wish.
Nope, it's entirely because the Giants suck.
DG has turned over the entire roster and they still suck.
DG said he was going to repair the OL and he hasn't.
DG said they were going to be able to run the ball. They can't.
DG said they were going to be able to stop the run. They can't.
DG said they were going to be able to rush the passer. They can't.
He has failed at building a winning roster. He has failed at the core competencies that he himself identified as necessary to a winning roster.
And he's a pompous fucking blowhard on top of it.