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The DJ concussion play - ALL 22 review

bluewave : 10/12/2021 10:31 pm
Don't know about you guys but Kyle Rudolph and Wes Martin are responsible for getting our QB killed on this play!


Link - ( New Window )
Both are sealing their  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 10:32 pm : link
Guys out. So either they both did not know the play or Jones bounced it out
I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
bw in dc : 10/12/2021 10:33 pm : link
and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.
RE: Both are sealing their  
bluewave : 10/12/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15411521 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Guys out. So either they both did not know the play or Jones bounced it out


Look at all the other lineman. They all reach for far left side of the defender to try and wall them off. Both Rudolph and Martin do the complete opposite and try to wall them off like the play was going the other way.
If Randolph  
GeoMan999 : 10/12/2021 10:38 pm : link
Just pushed his guy one second more, DJ would have best the other guy to the corner!
RE: If Randolph  
bluewave : 10/12/2021 10:40 pm : link
In comment 15411526 GeoMan999 said:
Quote:
Just pushed his guy one second more, DJ would have best the other guy to the corner!


Watch him and Martin just stop and turn around to look like the play was over. They though they play was going the other way....
From the right guard over to Rudolph  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 10:43 pm : link
All Seal their block to free up their right side. This play was not designed to go outside and if it was it is a poor play design. The person talking on the footage doesn’t understand line concepts if he indicates Rudolph was offsides. Taught to anticipate snap count and he moved at the same time that ball is being snapped, that fraction of a second is what assists the line in blocking. If anything the rest of the line was too slow.
If you are sealing out  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 10:45 pm : link
You can not do anything besides hold to prevent that defender from releasing into the flat
Once Rudolph missed  
Pete in MD : 10/12/2021 10:49 pm : link
his block, he should have found space and yelled to Jones for the ball. He could have been wide open for a three yard pass.
RE: If you are sealing out  
bluewave : 10/12/2021 10:52 pm : link
In comment 15411534 Giants73 said:
Quote:
You can not do anything besides hold to prevent that defender from releasing into the flat


You can reach for the far side of the defender and get your helmet across the body. That's basically what every other lineman does on for a zone blocking run schemes.
That would be a reach block  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 11:02 pm : link
The two were clearly engaged in sealing. Foot work is completely different when you want to perform a reach. First step would be hard to the outside of the defender pulling your inside foot midway if the defender. Also, on a designed run a release is useless due to offensive linemen potentially down field.
RE: That would be a reach block  
bluewave : 10/12/2021 11:14 pm : link
In comment 15411545 Giants73 said:
Quote:
The two were clearly engaged in sealing. Foot work is completely different when you want to perform a reach. First step would be hard to the outside of the defender pulling your inside foot midway if the defender. Also, on a designed run a release is useless due to offensive linemen potentially down field.


OK. So did they do a good job or not?
If the assignment  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 11:16 pm : link
Was to seal the defender out they both did a perfect job.
don't you think if that's Russ or Mahomes or even Lamar  
Producer : 10/12/2021 11:21 pm : link
they're throwing that ball out of the end zone, rather than tangling with two LBs bearing down on them with speed?
RE: I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
Producer : 10/12/2021 11:22 pm : link
In comment 15411523 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.


Do you think the team is 100% behind Jones?
I dont  
Giants73 : 10/12/2021 11:24 pm : link
Watched Lamar three times last night fight for the goal line getting hit. Mahomes would have slid, josh Allen would have put his head down. Dak would have slid.
RE: If the assignment  
bluewave : 10/12/2021 11:29 pm : link
In comment 15411559 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Was to seal the defender out they both did a perfect job.


Well that's on coaching because that design sucks!
RE: I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
speedywheels : 10/12/2021 11:58 pm : link
In comment 15411523 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.


Keep bringing the stupid, lol
If he hands the ball off to Booker  
JerseyCityJoe : 10/13/2021 12:20 am : link
it looks like a TD.
RE: I dont  
Producer : 10/13/2021 12:25 am : link
In comment 15411569 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Watched Lamar three times last night fight for the goal line getting hit. Mahomes would have slid, josh Allen would have put his head down. Dak would have slid.


But Lamar has never taken a clean hit like that in his NFL career. He never gets his bell rung. So do you think Lamar evades that hit? Same with Allen. They know to avoid direct hits.
RE: I dont  
Ira : 10/13/2021 12:34 am : link
In comment 15411569 Giants73 said:
Quote:
Watched Lamar three times last night fight for the goal line getting hit. Mahomes would have slid, josh Allen would have put his head down. Dak would have slid.


Given Jones injury history, he should slide.
Guys guys  
NoGainDayne : 10/13/2021 12:43 am : link
Kyle Rudolph is an extra coach out there. See how he watches the play. It's so valuable to pay these guys to coach on the field after they are no longer useful players, it's how we can achieve at such high levels
All of you SUCK  
allstarjim : 10/13/2021 1:32 am : link
If that was Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen he throws a quick an easy TD pass to #80 and there's no discussion.

The problem here is DJ is a linear player. He's not a creative playmaker. A creative decision maker would've recognized early he didn't have the edge but would've recognized that #80 would've been uncovered.

Watch it again. That was an easy TD that DJ gave away.
Except  
Toth029 : 10/13/2021 2:59 am : link
#80 gave no indication he was opting out and improvising the play.

He just stood there watching it.
RE: Except  
allstarjim : 10/13/2021 5:47 am : link
In comment 15411604 Toth029 said:
Quote:
#80 gave no indication he was opting out and improvising the play.

He just stood there watching it.


Oh clearly that means DJ can't throw it to him.
Garrett was responsible  
jeff57 : 10/13/2021 5:54 am : link
.
During the game  
ripdumaine : 10/13/2021 6:09 am : link
I though DJ did this on his own. Now looking at the way it was blocked, I'm convinced he improvised. The whole line blocked as if it were going to Booker. He would have walked in. Guessing Jones had the option and predetermined to do it. Again said guessing. JMO
RE: I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
DannyDimes : 10/13/2021 7:07 am : link
In comment 15411523 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.


Or maybe Jones didn't tell them the real play. QBs do this all the time in goal line QB run plays.... I don't understand this armchair expertise you all think you have.
RE: RE: I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2021 7:30 am : link
In comment 15411623 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15411523 bw in dc said:


Quote:


and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.



Or maybe Jones didn't tell them the real play. QBs do this all the time in goal line QB run plays.... I don't understand this armchair expertise you all think you have.

QBs don't tell their blockers the real play? Please elaborate.

This'll be fun.
Honest question  
Jalapeno : 10/13/2021 7:53 am : link
Does that even happen? A QB not telling their players the real play seems odd.
What sticks out to me there  
Chris684 : 10/13/2021 8:00 am : link
is how easily it looks like Booker walks into the end zone.
RE: Honest question  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2021 8:04 am : link
In comment 15411644 Jalapeno said:
Quote:
Does that even happen? A QB not telling their players the real play seems odd.


Based on the last few years, it has been a staple of the NY Giant offense...
The blocking on the play  
Ike#88 : 10/13/2021 8:08 am : link
sure looks to me like the handoff should have been to the RB. If they try that again the TE should leak out after blocking and Jones can just flip it to him after drawing the defenders.
It does look like  
nygiants16 : 10/13/2021 8:09 am : link
at least according to the blocking that Jones improvised and kept it. If he hands it off Booker walks in easily..
Rudolph and Martin  
Biteymax22 : 10/13/2021 8:18 am : link
Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.
Teams are going to expose that Dallas defense  
Dinger : 10/13/2021 8:22 am : link
and Better defenses will make Dak turn the ball over. While the Patriots offense may not expose their D, Belichick will be able to get his Defense ready. I am REALLY interested to see how they do this week. I'm sure if its a Dallas loss itll be a fluke...til other teams catch on. They are not a good team.
RE: Rudolph and Martin  
rnargi : 10/13/2021 8:29 am : link
In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.


That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.
As Bobby Skinner  
section125 : 10/13/2021 9:05 am : link
said, just WTF was that.
Booker scores easily if the ball is handed off. Rudolph and Martin block as if the play is to the right. Jones takes off and Martin and Rudolph are flat footed as if they did not expect Jones carrying to the left. Rudolph is wide open if Jones just stops and flips it. So just what was that play? I do not think we will ever know.

Gun to my head, Jones adlibbed on that play. But I cannot even say that half definitively. But no way an OC designs a play that leaves two defenders free. All Rudolph and Martin had to do is step left and seal the defenders and Jones walks in. The fact that both players blocked the way they did leads me to believe Jones decided to run on his own.

RE: As Bobby Skinner  
nygiants16 : 10/13/2021 9:09 am : link
In comment 15411719 section125 said:
Quote:
said, just WTF was that.
Booker scores easily if the ball is handed off. Rudolph and Martin block as if the play is to the right. Jones takes off and Martin and Rudolph are flat footed as if they did not expect Jones carrying to the left. Rudolph is wide open if Jones just stops and flips it. So just what was that play? I do not think we will ever know.

Gun to my head, Jones adlibbed on that play. But I cannot even say that half definitively. But no way an OC designs a play that leaves two defenders free. All Rudolph and Martin had to do is step left and seal the defenders and Jones walks in. The fact that both players blocked the way they did leads me to believe Jones decided to run on his own.


I wonder if the hole for Jones was supposed to be behind the left guard, there is a little gap there and Jones decides to try and take it to the pylon
RE: RE: As Bobby Skinner  
section125 : 10/13/2021 9:13 am : link
In comment 15411726 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411719 section125 said:


Quote:


said, just WTF was that.
Booker scores easily if the ball is handed off. Rudolph and Martin block as if the play is to the right. Jones takes off and Martin and Rudolph are flat footed as if they did not expect Jones carrying to the left. Rudolph is wide open if Jones just stops and flips it. So just what was that play? I do not think we will ever know.

Gun to my head, Jones adlibbed on that play. But I cannot even say that half definitively. But no way an OC designs a play that leaves two defenders free. All Rudolph and Martin had to do is step left and seal the defenders and Jones walks in. The fact that both players blocked the way they did leads me to believe Jones decided to run on his own.




I wonder if the hole for Jones was supposed to be behind the left guard, there is a little gap there and Jones decides to try and take it to the pylon


Nope, he was way too deep and never looked inside. It was an unbalanced line to the right. Notice that Martin is the only lineman to the left.
Booker did not expect the ball, so it wasn't an audible.  
mikeinbloomfield : 10/13/2021 9:16 am : link
The only thing I can think is it was an option that Rudolph read incorrectly.

Or Rudolph thought Jones was gone already. There really is no explanation for Rudolph obviously thinking the ball was going right.
RE: RE: RE: As Bobby Skinner  
nygiants16 : 10/13/2021 9:17 am : link
In comment 15411730 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411726 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 15411719 section125 said:


Quote:


said, just WTF was that.
Booker scores easily if the ball is handed off. Rudolph and Martin block as if the play is to the right. Jones takes off and Martin and Rudolph are flat footed as if they did not expect Jones carrying to the left. Rudolph is wide open if Jones just stops and flips it. So just what was that play? I do not think we will ever know.

Gun to my head, Jones adlibbed on that play. But I cannot even say that half definitively. But no way an OC designs a play that leaves two defenders free. All Rudolph and Martin had to do is step left and seal the defenders and Jones walks in. The fact that both players blocked the way they did leads me to believe Jones decided to run on his own.




I wonder if the hole for Jones was supposed to be behind the left guard, there is a little gap there and Jones decides to try and take it to the pylon



Nope, he was way too deep and never looked inside. It was an unbalanced line to the right. Notice that Martin is the only lineman to the left.


Yeah just weird play design, you would think if they wanted to have Jones run they would spread it out and run the read option..
Idk what the thought process is  
Bleedblue10 : 10/13/2021 9:22 am : link
But he could’ve thrown it to Rudolph right there. Bad blocking but easy 6 if he tosses it up
RE: Idk what the thought process is  
section125 : 10/13/2021 9:28 am : link
In comment 15411744 Bleedblue10 said:
Quote:
But he could’ve thrown it to Rudolph right there. Bad blocking but easy 6 if he tosses it up


Agree, he did not even look for Rudolph - so that is one of the reasons that leads me to believe that he did this on his own. I might hold that play in reserve and run it again with a throw behind the LB or CB.
Probably not the case...  
GNewGiants : 10/13/2021 9:29 am : link
but he probably called for a handoff to booker, but the coaches told him to keep it as a naked boot and the only person who knew was Booker.

Because the way the line blocked and their reaction to the keep doesnt seem right. Rudolph looks like he has no clue whats going on.
RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
rsjem1979 : 10/13/2021 9:30 am : link
In comment 15411684 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.



That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.


Judge's non-answer to a question about it doesn't rule out the possibility that Jones did that on his own. Literally every offensive lineman blocks to their left. Price and Hernandez cut, Peart & Solder block down, Engram kicks out, Penny leads through the hole, and if Jones hands it to Booker he walks into the end zone.
Link - ( New Window )
No matter the call or who's fault it was, that play is just  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2021 9:37 am : link
yet another example of how this team doesn't know what they are doing when they are in the red zone.

And that is an indictment of both the players and coaches.

RE: No matter the call or who's fault it was, that play is just  
section125 : 10/13/2021 9:42 am : link
In comment 15411763 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
yet another example of how this team doesn't know what they are doing when they are in the red zone.

And that is an indictment of both the players and coaches.


I am all for blanket statements. Common theme here on BBI. When in doubt blame everyone, claim victory and land on an aircraft carrier.
RE: RE: No matter the call or who's fault it was, that play is just  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2021 10:07 am : link
In comment 15411767 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411763 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


yet another example of how this team doesn't know what they are doing when they are in the red zone.

And that is an indictment of both the players and coaches.




I am all for blanket statements. Common theme here on BBI. When in doubt blame everyone, claim victory and land on an aircraft carrier.


Apologies, I guess I can be more specific. In the last two years I think we have seen: 1) little push by the interior OL getting runs stuffed on the goal line 2) Edge blockers and TEs that blow assignments and allow too quick of penetration 3) a QB that is too delayed in his processing on red zone passing plays 4) questionable play calling and use of wrong players like the Engram jet sweep 5) little to no use of jump balls plays despite addition of Golladay and Rudolph

Does that reduce it to a frigate?
Do ineligible man penalties not exist on the goal line?  
giantBCP : 10/13/2021 10:09 am : link
Why are people suggesting that Jones pass the ball on a run play where our linemen were run blocking?
RE: As Bobby Skinner  
AcidTest : 10/13/2021 10:13 am : link
In comment 15411719 section125 said:
Quote:
said, just WTF was that.
Booker scores easily if the ball is handed off. Rudolph and Martin block as if the play is to the right. Jones takes off and Martin and Rudolph are flat footed as if they did not expect Jones carrying to the left. Rudolph is wide open if Jones just stops and flips it. So just what was that play? I do not think we will ever know.

Gun to my head, Jones adlibbed on that play. But I cannot even say that half definitively. But no way an OC designs a play that leaves two defenders free. All Rudolph and Martin had to do is step left and seal the defenders and Jones walks in. The fact that both players blocked the way they did leads me to believe Jones decided to run on his own.


Agreed.
RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 10:17 am : link
In comment 15411684 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.



That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.

I agree Rob, that's how I see it.
RE: Do ineligible man penalties not exist on the goal line?  
section125 : 10/13/2021 10:20 am : link
In comment 15411800 giantBCP said:
Quote:
Why are people suggesting that Jones pass the ball on a run play where our linemen were run blocking?


As long as they are not downfield...
RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Biteymax22 : 10/13/2021 10:21 am : link
In comment 15411684 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.



That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.


I'm leaning towards audible they didn't hear or the got the play wrong. The way Booker reaches for the ball makes me think he knows it wasn't going to him, he kind of alligator armed it which you don't do if you know your getting the ball. If Jones improvised I think you would have seen Booker react different to Jones keeping.
RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15411816 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411684 rnargi said:


Quote:


In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.



That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.



I'm leaning towards audible they didn't hear or the got the play wrong. The way Booker reaches for the ball makes me think he knows it wasn't going to him, he kind of alligator armed it which you don't do if you know your getting the ball. If Jones improvised I think you would have seen Booker react different to Jones keeping.

100%. It's pretty clear it's a fake handoff to Booker. That was either a designed run for Jones or Rudolph was supposed to go out into a pattern for a pass. The fact that he is just standing there is baffling.

We can guess what went on there all day long but it's clearly a busted play that caused a concussion to our starting QB. Fucking ridiculous play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
section125 : 10/13/2021 10:38 am : link
In comment 15411832 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
It's pretty clear it's a fake handoff to Booker. That was either a designed run for Jones or Rudolph was supposed to go out into a pattern for a pass. The fact that he is just standing there is baffling.

We can guess what went on there all day long but it's clearly a busted play that caused a concussion to our starting QB. Fucking ridiculous play.


The fact Rudolph is not expecting a pass means it was not a pass play.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 10:42 am : link
In comment 15411836 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411832 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


It's pretty clear it's a fake handoff to Booker. That was either a designed run for Jones or Rudolph was supposed to go out into a pattern for a pass. The fact that he is just standing there is baffling.

We can guess what went on there all day long but it's clearly a busted play that caused a concussion to our starting QB. Fucking ridiculous play.



The fact Rudolph is not expecting a pass means it was not a pass play.

How would anyone know? He certainly wasn't blocking for a Jones run either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
section125 : 10/13/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15411839 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411836 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15411832 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


It's pretty clear it's a fake handoff to Booker. That was either a designed run for Jones or Rudolph was supposed to go out into a pattern for a pass. The fact that he is just standing there is baffling.

We can guess what went on there all day long but it's clearly a busted play that caused a concussion to our starting QB. Fucking ridiculous play.



The fact Rudolph is not expecting a pass means it was not a pass play.


How would anyone know? He certainly wasn't blocking for a Jones run either.


Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO
RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 10:52 am : link
In comment 15411845 section125 said:
Quote:

Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO

I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.
amazing BOOKER  
Platos : 10/13/2021 11:09 am : link
didn't look confused.

it was a shitty play design with even shittier execution by rudolph and Wes.
Rudolph looks visibly confused on the play  
Thunderstruck27 : 10/13/2021 11:10 am : link
Either he wasn't prepared and doesn't know the playbook or he didn't hear the playcall.
looking at that play -- I think it's all on Daniel Jones  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/13/2021 11:14 am : link
It's clear that Kyle and Wes thought the play was going the other way

It looks to me like Jones made a lot of bad decisions there

that should have been a handoff to Booker

if not it should have been a pass play as Rudolph was open

Jones decided on the option to hot foot that all the way -- and forgot to tell everyone else about it

Rudolph looks genuinely surprised at what he's doing
I see this way differently than many of you...  
bw in dc : 10/13/2021 11:15 am : link
I see this as a fake handoff to Booker, who doesn't AT ALL look like he expected the ball the way he basically jogs into the LOS, with Jones rolling opposite of Booker with the misdirection.

And then, I'll be kind, Rudolph and Martin show very poor timing trying to execute their blocks. Gholston just knifes right by flat footed Martin and Cox just reads the play and shrugs off Rudolph.

If some of you want to suppose that there is a misunderstand with the play called - fine. But at the very least, Martin whiffs on Gholston and I can't imagine that being his assignment on the play.
RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
rsjem1979 : 10/13/2021 11:15 am : link
In comment 15411850 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411845 section125 said:


Quote:



Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO


I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.


I mean, the rest of the line isn't blocking differently. Everything about the way it was blocked suggests an off-tackle lead to the right. Literally everyone else on the line except for the TE at the far right of the formation blocks left.

Rudolph and Martin prevent the backside defenders from wrecking the play in the backfield. Price and Hernandez go low to prevent the interior linemen from penetrating. Peart and Solder block down, Engram kicks out, and Penny is the lead for Booker.

It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.
RE: looking at that play -- I think it's all on Daniel Jones  
NoGainDayne : 10/13/2021 11:17 am : link
In comment 15411879 gidiefor said:
Quote:
It's clear that Kyle and Wes thought the play was going the other way

It looks to me like Jones made a lot of bad decisions there

that should have been a handoff to Booker

if not it should have been a pass play as Rudolph was open

Jones decided on the option to hot foot that all the way -- and forgot to tell everyone else about it

Rudolph looks genuinely surprised at what he's doing


Just watched again after reading this and this looks like the correct read. I will say this though, even if Rudolph was confused if he rolls with DJ instead of just throwing his arms in the air he could have rolled with him and maybe gotten a TD pass there and changed the course of our season. I don't love overpaying a veteran TE that there were definitely questions if he was past his prime and then seeing him dog it on a play. I don't care how confused he was. Not a vet move there.
RE: I see this way differently than many of you...  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 11:20 am : link
In comment 15411882 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I see this as a fake handoff to Booker, who doesn't AT ALL look like he expected the ball the way he basically jogs into the LOS, with Jones rolling opposite of Booker with the misdirection.

And then, I'll be kind, Rudolph and Martin show very poor timing trying to execute their blocks. Gholston just knifes right by flat footed Martin and Cox just reads the play and shrugs off Rudolph.

If some of you want to suppose that there is a misunderstand with the play called - fine. But at the very least, Martin whiffs on Gholston and I can't imagine that being his assignment on the play.

Agreed. At the very least Booker is on the same page with Jones, that's pretty clear.
RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Thunderstruck27 : 10/13/2021 11:21 am : link
In comment 15411883 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15411850 Johnny5 said:


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In comment 15411845 section125 said:


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Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO


I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.



I mean, the rest of the line isn't blocking differently. Everything about the way it was blocked suggests an off-tackle lead to the right. Literally everyone else on the line except for the TE at the far right of the formation blocks left.

Rudolph and Martin prevent the backside defenders from wrecking the play in the backfield. Price and Hernandez go low to prevent the interior linemen from penetrating. Peart and Solder block down, Engram kicks out, and Penny is the lead for Booker.

It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.


The rest of the line all dive to the side the play is on. Rudolph and Martin block their men toward the play. That much is obvious.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Now Mike in MD : 10/13/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15411893 Thunderstruck27 said:
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In comment 15411883 rsjem1979 said:


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In comment 15411850 Johnny5 said:


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In comment 15411845 section125 said:


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Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO


I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.



I mean, the rest of the line isn't blocking differently. Everything about the way it was blocked suggests an off-tackle lead to the right. Literally everyone else on the line except for the TE at the far right of the formation blocks left.

Rudolph and Martin prevent the backside defenders from wrecking the play in the backfield. Price and Hernandez go low to prevent the interior linemen from penetrating. Peart and Solder block down, Engram kicks out, and Penny is the lead for Booker.

It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.



The rest of the line all dive to the side the play is on. Rudolph and Martin block their men toward the play. That much is obvious.


Agreed. Between Booker's reaction and the rest of the OL blocking the way they did, it seems pretty clear that Rudolph and Martin messed up what the play was, and the play was called for the bootleg by Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Giants73 : 10/13/2021 11:32 am : link
In comment 15411919 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 15411893 Thunderstruck27 said:


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In comment 15411883 rsjem1979 said:


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In comment 15411850 Johnny5 said:


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In comment 15411845 section125 said:


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Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO


I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.



I mean, the rest of the line isn't blocking differently. Everything about the way it was blocked suggests an off-tackle lead to the right. Literally everyone else on the line except for the TE at the far right of the formation blocks left.

Rudolph and Martin prevent the backside defenders from wrecking the play in the backfield. Price and Hernandez go low to prevent the interior linemen from penetrating. Peart and Solder block down, Engram kicks out, and Penny is the lead for Booker.

It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.



The rest of the line all dive to the side the play is on. Rudolph and Martin block their men toward the play. That much is obvious.



Agreed. Between Booker's reaction and the rest of the OL blocking the way they did, it seems pretty clear that Rudolph and Martin messed up what the play was, and the play was called for the bootleg by Jones.


No your wrong. That was blocked as if Booker was getting the ball. No one blocked it any other way.
Giants73  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 11:43 am : link
You don't think it's clear that Booker knew it wasn't a handoff to him? At the very least that means to me DJ and Booker knew the play but some of (or the entire) OL did not. But again It's impossible for any of us to know for sure. It looks pretty clear to me that Booker is on board with the fake handoff.
RE: RE: I brought this up a handful of times this week...  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15411623 DannyDimes said:
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In comment 15411523 bw in dc said:


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and said one or both of them should be cut for getting Jones hurt. That would send a message.

What an incompetent effort.



Or maybe Jones didn't tell them the real play. QBs do this all the time in goal line QB run plays.... I don't understand this armchair expertise you all think you have.

Still waiting to hear about this incredible insight that you have about QBs intentionally not telling their blockers the real play "all the time."

You're a fucking joke. Beat it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
rsjem1979 : 10/13/2021 12:20 pm : link
In comment 15411893 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:


It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.



The rest of the line all dive to the side the play is on. Rudolph and Martin block their men toward the play. That much is obvious.


No, they don't. From the broadcast angle, you see the back jersey numbers of every single man on the offensive line as soon as the play starts. They are all blocking left. C & RG move to cut their assignments.

I left out Kaden Smith, who was outside Solder, he does the same thing to seal the hole and Engram from the end of the formation kicks out to the right.

If it's a designed bootleg, it's a terrible design.
RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Peppers : 10/13/2021 12:45 pm : link
In comment 15411684 rnargi said:
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In comment 15411668 Biteymax22 said:


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Blocked the run play, not the counter off it they were running with Jones. This was a missed assignment, Martin has had like 5 practices, these are the things that happen when you shuffle guys in and out.

For Rudolph, different story. He's disappointed on quite a few levels this year. So far he's been no more than 2021's Johnathan Stewart.



That's exactly how I see it. Look at Rudolph look back at the play. It appears he is initially looking at the off tackle hole on the weak side. Then he sees Jones running a sprint bootleg and reacts. One of two things happened: Martin and Rudolph either got the play wrong/missed and audible, or Jones improvised. Pretty much that simple, IMHO.


Exactly this.. Even an amateur doing game tape break down on youtube should be able to understand what happened in this play.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Rudolph and Martin  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2021 1:26 pm : link
In comment 15411893 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15411883 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 15411850 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


In comment 15411845 section125 said:


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Which would lead you to believe that Jones did this on his own. The fact that Rudolph and Martin blocked the exact same way (and reacted) would tell you that the run was not supposed to be to their side and it was not a pass If one or the other played it differently, well then one of them would have been at fault. The fact they blocked for a run to the right tells me Jones adlibbed...IMHO


I don't disagree except for the fact that the rest of the line is blocking differently, and Booker is clearly involved in faking the handoff. In my mind that points to an audible that neither Rudolph or Wes Martin picked up on.

But again it's not a hill I would die on. A broken and stupid play no matter how you dissect it. Should have been a handoff to Booker in my mind.



I mean, the rest of the line isn't blocking differently. Everything about the way it was blocked suggests an off-tackle lead to the right. Literally everyone else on the line except for the TE at the far right of the formation blocks left.

Rudolph and Martin prevent the backside defenders from wrecking the play in the backfield. Price and Hernandez go low to prevent the interior linemen from penetrating. Peart and Solder block down, Engram kicks out, and Penny is the lead for Booker.

It seems to me (and I invite anybody to explain differently if I'm incorrect) that if you were going to run a bootleg, the flow of the blocking would be to the right to influence the backside pursuit and give Jones an angle to the corner.



The rest of the line all dive to the side the play is on. Rudolph and Martin block their men toward the play. That much is obvious.

Have you played OL? Have you played football? If so, do you understand how blocking schemes work? Do you understand how a single player might disrupt an otherwise proper blocking scheme by bouncing a play outside or inside unexpectedly? And that's not even a knock against DJ; that happens sometimes.

The play appears to have been designed to go through either the 5 or 7 gap. DJ went 9. And even beyond that, the typical (and most simplistic) blocking assignment is ON-IN-OFF-OUT, which means that sometimes your man is lined up on your outside shoulder and you're going to have to drive him to the sideline. Sometimes the hole is where the defense allows the hole to be. This might be one of those times.
I think the fault lies either with Garrett or Jones  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 1:44 pm : link
Either the design was poor or Jones did the wrong thing.

Take a look at the video below. This is a bootleg TD by Kyler Murray to the same side of the field (video is taken by a fan in the end zone - it provides a great angle). Look at the blockers on the left side of the Cardinals' line - they all crash in towards the center. You can see everyone is on the same page and the result is a walk in TD. This is what it's supposed to look like.

Watch that, then watch the Jones play. I'm not sure what was supposed to happen, but it doesn't seem like it was designed for Jones to go outside. Contrast the Giants blockers with the Cardinals blockers - it looks completely different.

I have a hard time believing the error is on Rudolph and Martin - what are the odds they both made the same mistake at the same time?
I watched it muted - don't know if there is NSFW language - ( New Window )
RE: RE: looking at that play -- I think it's all on Daniel Jones  
HomerJones45 : 10/13/2021 1:45 pm : link
In comment 15411887 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 15411879 gidiefor said:


Quote:


It's clear that Kyle and Wes thought the play was going the other way

It looks to me like Jones made a lot of bad decisions there

that should have been a handoff to Booker

if not it should have been a pass play as Rudolph was open

Jones decided on the option to hot foot that all the way -- and forgot to tell everyone else about it

Rudolph looks genuinely surprised at what he's doing



Just watched again after reading this and this looks like the correct read. I will say this though, even if Rudolph was confused if he rolls with DJ instead of just throwing his arms in the air he could have rolled with him and maybe gotten a TD pass there and changed the course of our season. I don't love overpaying a veteran TE that there were definitely questions if he was past his prime and then seeing him dog it on a play. I don't care how confused he was. Not a vet move there.
The Judge has it correct. Jones tried to run for the corner. An Allen, Hurts or Jackson with some cutting ability cuts into the hole and scores.

As for Rudolph, this is not street ball where you just freelance your way around- "oh I'm through blocking, I'll just go out for pass". There are many descriptions of Rudolph but dog has never been part of it. He had that "wtf are you doing?" look at Jones.
RE: I see this way differently than many of you...  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/13/2021 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15411882 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I see this as a fake handoff to Booker, who doesn't AT ALL look like he expected the ball the way he basically jogs into the LOS, with Jones rolling opposite of Booker with the misdirection.

And then, I'll be kind, Rudolph and Martin show very poor timing trying to execute their blocks. Gholston just knifes right by flat footed Martin and Cox just reads the play and shrugs off Rudolph.

If some of you want to suppose that there is a misunderstand with the play called - fine. But at the very least, Martin whiffs on Gholston and I can't imagine that being his assignment on the play.


You could be right -- either way -- there's a lot not to like looking at that play.
One other thing  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 1:48 pm : link
If he just hands the ball to Booker, Booker walks in for the TD. It almost looks like that was supposed to be the play.

And I second what HomerJones said above - Rudolph's body language is surprise at what is happening.
no expert here...  
BillKo : 10/13/2021 1:50 pm : link
...but Rudolph definitely look surprised when he see DJ on the run. You can see how he reacts.



RE: One other thing  
Now Mike in MD : 10/13/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15412186 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If he just hands the ball to Booker, Booker walks in for the TD. It almost looks like that was supposed to be the play.

And I second what HomerJones said above - Rudolph's body language is surprise at what is happening.


It that's the case, don't you think Booker would have reacted with level of surprise that he didn't get the ball. He doesn't at all.
RE: RE: One other thing  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15412225 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15412186 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If he just hands the ball to Booker, Booker walks in for the TD. It almost looks like that was supposed to be the play.

And I second what HomerJones said above - Rudolph's body language is surprise at what is happening.



It that's the case, don't you think Booker would have reacted with level of surprise that he didn't get the ball. He doesn't at all.


No idea. I'm just saying that based on the blocking in confident Jones wasn't supposed to be where he was when he took that hit.
*I'm confident  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 2:31 pm : link
.
Fine Rudolph is surprised  
NoGainDayne : 10/13/2021 3:06 pm : link
it's not an improv show. He doesn't get points for playing the part. Play the part of a football player and do something more productive than standing there with your hands up
RE: RE: RE: One other thing  
Johnny5 : 10/13/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15412250 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15412225 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15412186 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If he just hands the ball to Booker, Booker walks in for the TD. It almost looks like that was supposed to be the play.

And I second what HomerJones said above - Rudolph's body language is surprise at what is happening.



It that's the case, don't you think Booker would have reacted with level of surprise that he didn't get the ball. He doesn't at all.



No idea. I'm just saying that based on the blocking in confident Jones wasn't supposed to be where he was when he took that hit.

It depends who was wrong. Jones and Booker clearly on the same page. OL clearly not on same page as Jones/Booker. The thing we will never know is why... lol.
RE: RE: One other thing  
bw in dc : 10/13/2021 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15412225 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15412186 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If he just hands the ball to Booker, Booker walks in for the TD. It almost looks like that was supposed to be the play.

And I second what HomerJones said above - Rudolph's body language is surprise at what is happening.



It that's the case, don't you think Booker would have reacted with level of surprise that he didn't get the ball. He doesn't at all.


I'm with you here. Booker is clearly selling the fake. Just look how casually he struts into the end-zone. He was not expecting that handoff...
RE: RE: I see this way differently than many of you...  
bw in dc : 10/13/2021 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15412184 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15411882 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I see this as a fake handoff to Booker, who doesn't AT ALL look like he expected the ball the way he basically jogs into the LOS, with Jones rolling opposite of Booker with the misdirection.

And then, I'll be kind, Rudolph and Martin show very poor timing trying to execute their blocks. Gholston just knifes right by flat footed Martin and Cox just reads the play and shrugs off Rudolph.

If some of you want to suppose that there is a misunderstand with the play called - fine. But at the very least, Martin whiffs on Gholston and I can't imagine that being his assignment on the play.



You could be right -- either way -- there's a lot not to like looking at that play.


It's a very curious play for sure. Like I said, I can't give Martin any credit for his whiff block like some our doing above. He's slow off the ball and simply can't handle Gholston's move. Clear as day to me that he couldn't execute his assignment...
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