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What happened to the defense?

JOrthman : 10/12/2021 10:45 pm
I know there are a thousand threads on the defense sucks, but I'm looking for more technical answers on what has happened this season...

At no time this off season did the defense worry me. If anything I thought they'd at least be as good as last year and possibly better. Same coordinator, most of the same returning cast and a few good FA pick ups. However the exact opposite has happened. The defense is a clear liability and clearly worse then last year. I think we can pretty much agree on all of the above, my question is why?

What are we seeing that is different? Was there some schematic change in our defensive game plan? Is there some technical issue I'm missing? Did they start believing their own press clippings? What is it?
To me  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 10:51 pm : link
We are severly lacking in the linebacker corp. They aren't hitting the holes, they're bad in coverage, and they don't maintain outside contain.

We looked like a high school team  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 10:53 pm : link
in run defense against the Cowboys
and you may be right, but why?  
JOrthman : 10/12/2021 11:01 pm : link
Why have the regressed?
I think letting Tomlinson walk is part of it  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 11:03 pm : link
.
If you're going to run essentially a 34 defense without a strong LB co  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 11:05 pm : link
You better be dominant up front
not super technical but a few thoughts  
Eric on Li : 10/12/2021 11:05 pm : link
1. the dropped INTs have been brutal. just complete a few of those and there's at least a win vs. ATL.

2. last year to a degree the defense went as Holmes did. early in the year he didnt play well and he got picked on. later in the year he got better and the defense got better.

3. the LB's aren't setting the edge in the run game at all. last year they didn't have dynamic edge rushers but Fackrell, Trent Harris, Sheard knew their assignments.

4. whatever graham did to change things up nobody in the secondary is playing with confidence. they aren't completely busting assignments, but a lot of guys are just a half step in the wrong direction like the Lamb TD getting past Bradberry with Love not getting over in time. some of the TDs like the one on Jackson in the corner of the EZ vs. WAS are just tip your cap plays. but I think it's definitely shot the confidence of some of these guys.

5. the young guys who were picked high and supposed to step up havent (specifically Lawrence and McKinney).

i dont have any suggested answers. this unit has been really disappointing and cost the team at least 2 wins. they need to do something to find a way to play with some confidence.
If you listen to the analytics community  
Go Terps : 10/12/2021 11:12 pm : link
Defense tends not to be a "sticky" characteristic of a team from year to year. If you look back in recent history that bears out. Recent examples off the top of my head are this year's Giants and WFT. The Jaguars' AFC title game team has a great defense that didn't stick.
The Giants didn't play that many good offenses last year  
AdamBrag : 10/12/2021 11:13 pm : link
In fact, they played one of the easiest schedules in the league in terms of opponent's offense. It's very possible this defense was very overrated heading into this year.
We lost our captain and best defensive player on the team  
ZGiants98 : 10/12/2021 11:18 pm : link
for the season the first game? Start there
Losing Martinez is huge  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 11:26 pm : link
He cleans a lot of this up in the middle
Martinez didn’t go down until week 3 vs Atlanta.  
NY-Fan : 10/12/2021 11:27 pm : link
The defense was sucking before that. Even Martinez was a step behind the first 2 games.
This is true, although I still consider him a big loss  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2021 11:30 pm : link
Our 2 minute defense has been utterly abysmal as well.
Happened  
darren in pdx : 10/12/2021 11:52 pm : link
From ‘16 to ‘17 as well. The team overrated the defense. They spent a lot of money and draft capital on the secondary when they probably should have focused on the linebackers.
haha...  
Bill E : 10/13/2021 12:27 am : link
...yes; defenses are not "sticky" from year to year.

BRILLIANT!
Is Martinez the reason that Bradberry is crap this year  
NoGainDayne : 10/13/2021 12:46 am : link
and LW predictably isn't playing like was in a contract year after he got paid.

Shocking.

Maybe we need to restructure these guys a few more times, I'm not sure we are up against the cap enough yet for a team that never wins.
RE: haha...  
Mike from SI : 10/13/2021 1:28 am : link
In comment 15411587 Bill E said:
Quote:
...yes; defenses are not "sticky" from year to year.

BRILLIANT!


What he means by that is the correlation of defensive output is not as high from year to year as other elements of football. I've never read that about defense overall, but I have seen some pretty convincing data demonstrating that certain distinct elements are not that "sticky" or correlated from year-to-year; one example is recovered fumbles. I'd like to see whatever reading/analysis he has on that. There are so many variables but if you get a big enough data set, maybe you can find something there.

I don't know as much football as a lot of people, but a few observations:

The Cowboys were consistently pulling guards who were obliterating our guys on the edge.

Bradberry doesn't look as good as he did last year.

Peppers has been a very up-and-down player in his career and this year it seems we're getting more of the bad play.

Leonard Williams is not playing as well as he did last year.

The NTs have been average at best and Shelton has had some bad games.

Graham seems like (especially in the earlier games) he's calling softer coverage and less blitzing, but I could be wrong about that, and even if I'm right he may have good reason if he realizes our secondary is prone.

Bad luck on some dropped INTs.
RE: I think letting Tomlinson walk is part of it  
Toth029 : 10/13/2021 3:03 am : link
In comment 15411546 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
.


Cowboys hit the perimeter and ran outside.

The Giants are good if they decide to run in the middle.

Unfortunately Crowder isn't getting it done either way.
Bad LB play and Bradberry  
Aaroninma : 10/13/2021 4:45 am : link
Our LB play flat out stinks right now. Im not sure why Coughlin cant get an opportunity. He was a good piece in their defensive uptick last year.

Bradberry was lights out, true shutdown guy last year and hes been really awful this year.

The safety play has also been underwhelming.

Graham is going to need to take some more chances here. The season is essentially over, so stop being so conservative and lets really see if any of these guys can play
I don't agree that the Giants have been good up the middle  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/13/2021 5:38 am : link
They haven't been nearly as stout along the line as last year.

The defense as a whole has stepped back. Really, all the examples people have listed here are pretty accurate.

They aren't a bad defense this year, and perhaps too much has been asked of them at times this season in today's keague, but they're not what they were last year IMO.
Their is not one defensive group playing well this year  
Rick in Dallas : 10/13/2021 6:12 am : link
The DL,LB and secondary groups all underperforming this year.
It is really a head scratcher.Is it the scheme versus last year? Graham's soft pass coverage in the secondary is driving me crazy. Wr's and TE's running free all over the field. Edge containment is non existent with these outside LB's.
I thought Bradbury's strength was playing as a press coverage corner...why is he playing 10 yards off the LOS? A real disappointment for me is Logan Ryan's play at safety this year versus last year...what changed? Peppers seems to be mailing it in this year.
I would love to have an honest one on one discussion with Pat Graham about his defensive players. An honest evaluation of their strengths and weaknesses.

Having said all that above I would give a pass to Ojulari and McKinney who are essentially in their rookie seasons!!!
Let's be honest  
UberAlias : 10/13/2021 7:38 am : link
Last year was a bit of an over performance with a number of guys having had career years.Some of that coming back down to earth in conjunction with some of the things mentioned is your answer. Recall also the defense started out slow a year ago too. I do expect we'll see some improvement at some point here as well, barring many more injuries.
Giants' DL stats  
bc4life : 10/13/2021 8:12 am : link
are right near the stop. So, the notion that LW is taking it easy after big payday is nonsense.

Think Shelton is a notch or so below Tomlinson. But Shelton has not been playing that bad. He is just not as athletic as DT.

Biggest issue is the LB corps. Martinez out is huge. XMan is not the answer. Ojulari shows promise but still a young pup. Coughlin moved inside - may not be a good fit. The rest of the OLB just not getting it done.


And fundamentals - marginally talented teams cannot screw up the basics - tackling, dropping ints.


Not an Xs & Os guy but maybe the schemes play a role as well
They don't emphasize speed or AA  
Joey in VA : 10/13/2021 8:29 am : link
With the exception of maybe Adoree Jackson, who just plain sucks so far, this is a slow defense with near zero speed and a glaring lack of athletic ability. Name one plus athlete in the starting 11. They're not physical, smart or fast, it's truly awful across the board.
Read Sy's report on the Dallas game.  
Gruber : 10/13/2021 8:39 am : link
Players having career years last season regress to the norm this, and the absence of an edge rush, which has been going on as long as most of us can remember. Remember, even last season there were too many occasions where opponents were walking the ball up field on long drives.
A big one is fans overrated it in 2020  
JonC : 10/13/2021 8:45 am : link
They were not stout and have dropped off up the middle, the LB unit largely stinks, there's no pass rush unless they blitz DBs which exposes them downfield, and many of the DBs are playing very poorly.

They also do no tackle well, and the edges are really soft versus the run. Given all these things, they can't stop the run, can't dictate AT ALL to their opponents, and catch get off the field because they're always back on their heels.

Throw in all these super soft zone looks from Graham trying to protect the defense from its weaknesses, and you've got a bunch of missing confidence along with missing talent.

They need upgrades at NT, at least three LB spots presuming Ojulari grows into a sound #2, and their pricey CBs have to regain their form. There's a lot of flakiness on display with the LBs which points to coaching. It's a mess.
flakiness on display with the LBs and DBs  
JonC : 10/13/2021 8:47 am : link
.
 
christian : 10/13/2021 8:54 am : link
The Giants were able to generate inside pass rush last year with both the line and heavy blitzing from Martinez and Peppers.

Frackrell and Sheard were competent edge setters, and reliable if unspectacular. Tomlinson and Hill are both bona fide starters in this league.

The Giants walked away from four glue guys, who kept a respectable floor last year.

The floor is much lower now.
We also can't trust any of our safeties to play deep  
AdamBrag : 10/13/2021 9:38 am : link
McKinney and Ryan are really struggling with this. I think this is part of the reason Bradberry is playing softer coverage because we can't trust anyone can help him if he gets beat deep.
I think the biggest reason is  
thedogfather : 10/13/2021 9:39 am : link
several individual players are just not playing nearly as well as last season. Especially Leonard Williams and Bradberry. You kind of knew Leonard was going to dial it back a bit after getting the money but he's been so nonexistent. And Bradberry is so weird how bad he's been. I don't think I've ever seen a player decline so much. I joke that Madden 22 should decrease his overall from 90 to like 70 LOL.
forgot about Fackrell  
bc4life : 10/13/2021 10:02 am : link
yes he was a good player for the Giants
Poor linebacker play  
joeinpa : 10/13/2021 10:34 am : link
Again, this has been a problem for years, and Bradberry has reverted to the CB CAROLINA let walk

Plus there s no Yiadom on the other side to attack and avoid Bradberry
Here’s a bunch of reasons why:  
Modzelewski : 10/13/2021 10:59 am : link
.
Nj.com link 15 Wild Stars through 5 games - ( New Window )
Another telling article  
Modzelewski : 10/13/2021 11:37 am : link
About the defense:
BBB: The Giants are not what they expected to be - ( New Window )
circling back to this with some stats from PFF  
Eric on Li : 10/13/2021 1:45 pm : link
currently the 3 linebackers who lead the team in snaps are rated at the bottom of their respective positions:

Carter - 231 snaps, 90th/106 EDGE
Crowder - 274 snaps, 79th/84 ILBs
Ojulari - 195 snaps, 81st/106 EDGE

Ragland is next but he has actually rated well (29th/84 ILBs).

So net-net:

The secondary rates middle of the pack - which is still underperformance relative to where they should be.

The DL is closest to hitting expectations (Leonard Williams is the highest rated player on the team, Johnson/Lawrence both above average).

And the LB level is basically contending to be one of the worst in the league. Ojulari as a rookie is understandable. But Crowder has taken a big step back and Patrick Graham's prediction of a Lorenzo Carter breakout seem to be major culprits. Along with Ximines basically being a non-impact player.
RE: circling back to this with some stats from PFF  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2021 2:13 pm : link
In comment 15412181 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
currently the 3 linebackers who lead the team in snaps are rated at the bottom of their respective positions:

Carter - 231 snaps, 90th/106 EDGE
Crowder - 274 snaps, 79th/84 ILBs
Ojulari - 195 snaps, 81st/106 EDGE

Ragland is next but he has actually rated well (29th/84 ILBs).

So net-net:

The secondary rates middle of the pack - which is still underperformance relative to where they should be.

The DL is closest to hitting expectations (Leonard Williams is the highest rated player on the team, Johnson/Lawrence both above average).

And the LB level is basically contending to be one of the worst in the league. Ojulari as a rookie is understandable. But Crowder has taken a big step back and Patrick Graham's prediction of a Lorenzo Carter breakout seem to be major culprits. Along with Ximines basically being a non-impact player.


good post all-around...
Interesting on Ragland  
JonC : 10/13/2021 2:17 pm : link
A few things I see regularly with him : 1) he guesses on which hole to fill and where the ball is going, suggesting he's not reading his keys 2) he's slow to diagnose action 3) he constantly goes backward when contacting the ball carrier. How you can be the much larger man and not stop the ball consistently is a smh. He's a solid backup.
Ragland takes on too many blockers instead  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2021 2:24 pm : link
of taking better approaches to the ball carrier. But he has been decent, just not an above average player.
RE: circling back to this with some stats from PFF  
Dinger : 10/14/2021 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15412181 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
currently the 3 linebackers who lead the team in snaps are rated at the bottom of their respective positions:

Carter - 231 snaps, 90th/106 EDGE
Crowder - 274 snaps, 79th/84 ILBs
Ojulari - 195 snaps, 81st/106 EDGE

Ragland is next but he has actually rated well (29th/84 ILBs).

So net-net:

The secondary rates middle of the pack - which is still underperformance relative to where they should be.

The DL is closest to hitting expectations (Leonard Williams is the highest rated player on the team, Johnson/Lawrence both above average).

And the LB level is basically contending to be one of the worst in the league. Ojulari as a rookie is understandable. But Crowder has taken a big step back and Patrick Graham's prediction of a Lorenzo Carter breakout seem to be major culprits. Along with Ximines basically being a non-impact player.

I know I'm simplifying but we could have taken Micah Parsons. We just don't seem to value LB play the way a 34 defense should. Crowder is Mr Irrelevant and seems to be playing that way more and more. I've written of getting anything useful out of Carter and Ximines. Hoping OJ develops into an above average player.
RE: The Giants didn't play that many good offenses last year  
Dinger : 10/14/2021 1:30 pm : link
In comment 15411556 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
In fact, they played one of the easiest schedules in the league in terms of opponent's offense. It's very possible this defense was very overrated heading into this year.

Not sure I agree with this. We played:
#3 Tampa
#7 Ravens
#8 Seahawks
#12 Steelers
#13 Cards
#14 Browns
I got those from Pro Football Reference. Thats rated by points for. I also think it depends WHEN in the season you play those offenses. Now you could argue that our defense was shit against those top teams and I would not disagree(except for maybe the seahawks game), but somehow we were #9 team d (points against) and #21 in yards allowed. I think maybe some of it is we got more breaks than we have so far but in general I feel like we are aggresive in coverage or in rushing the passer. That goes along with a lot of what else is on this thread.
I wouldn't go back and take Parsons > Toney + Chicago's 1st  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2021 1:39 pm : link
I would gladly go back and spend money on an edge rusher (or 2) instead of Adoree Jackson.

they gave Jackson 3 years / 39m. $13m AAV. Almost the same amount they gave Bradberry last year.

as disappointing as Bradberry's year has been he almost single handedly won the WAS game and made a big play in the NO game. Jackson has done nothing so far.

hard to not argue Floyd, Nguakoue, Reddick, whoever would have been better. Or a combo of lower cost players like bringing back Fackrell and some other depth pieces.
Drafting is an issue  
bc4life : 10/15/2021 11:21 am : link
Have to wonder what they're looking for. Pittsburgh took Highsmith right after we took an LB and he's staring for Pittsburgh.

They are not a strong pass rushing crew.

Again, not an Xs or Os guy but two things that keep coming to mind when I watch the team - open spots on the field where a LB should be. (gap discipline, holding the edge?

And, when I think of LBs, I think guys that should run and hit. Maybe its' just me but I just don't see a lot of that or enough of that from our crew.

Stop drafting for things like "length" and just find some heat seeking missiles who have solid football IQ.
Don't regret passing on Parsons  
bc4life : 10/15/2021 11:23 am : link
They get that O-Line fixed and I think they may be a RT away form that - offense will turn it around.

Toney is going to be headache for teams for years to come.
Giants need to pick Edges with more pass rushing talent  
JonC : 10/15/2021 11:28 am : link
Reddick would've gotten the $ over Adoree from me, his talent and upside were worth the gamble. Judon and Ngakoue to lesser extent but still better players than NYG's been falling in love with at Edge. If you keep acquiring Edges who fit the bend but don't break model but really aren't plus downhill threats, you will struggle to rush the passer effectively and consistently.
RE: Giants need to pick Edges with more pass rushing talent  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 11:36 am : link
In comment 15414451 JonC said:
Quote:
Reddick would've gotten the $ over Adoree from me, his talent and upside were worth the gamble. Judon and Ngakoue to lesser extent but still better players than NYG's been falling in love with at Edge. If you keep acquiring Edges who fit the bend but don't break model but really aren't plus downhill threats, you will struggle to rush the passer effectively and consistently.


Totally agree jon. I know hindsight is always 20:20 but Reddick was also a lot cheaper. 1 year 6m.

Give me Reddick + maybe another depth player like Fackrell + a lesser vet CB (like Hayward) and this defense would be in much better shape right now.

Jackson was paid like Bradberry/Williams/Martinez and has yet to show anywhere close to that level of impact (IMO).
Eric, agreed  
JonC : 10/15/2021 11:40 am : link
More of those types of players, and much less of the Adoree/Leonard Floyd/Lo Carter types for me.
RE: Eric, agreed  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 11:50 am : link
In comment 15414493 JonC said:
Quote:
More of those types of players, and much less of the Adoree/Leonard Floyd/Lo Carter types for me.


Floyd has been very good for a few years now - which is why unlike Jackson his previous team pushed hard to bring him back. I'd have been much more comfortable with him than Jackson, even at the slightly higher price tag. Not sure I'd have taken him over the combo of multiple cheaper players but I may have.

Jackson not only had the odd departure from TEN but also the injury risk. Paying him almost what they paid Bradberry puts a pretty big level of performance expectation. Bradberry was a stud last year and while he hasn't been as good this year he does have 2 big INTs and almost had a 3rd vs. Dallas. Jackson dropped 1 costing them the Atlanta win and other than that has been mostly invisible.

Maybe he turns things around and the defense goes on a run like last year but so far he looks like someone we may want a redo on.
I don't like Floyd's game, never have  
JonC : 10/15/2021 11:55 am : link
too much run and chase pursuit backer, he's more of a complimentary player and the price they paid for him? No thanks.
RE: I don't like Floyd's game, never have  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 12:00 pm : link
In comment 15414520 JonC said:
Quote:
too much run and chase pursuit backer, he's more of a complimentary player and the price they paid for him? No thanks.


3 sacks / 4 tfls so far this year.
10.5 / 11 last year.

hasn't missed a game since 2017.

Ojulari is the only guy on the roster with anywhere close to the athleticism Floyd has, and I think from the Rams games I've seen Floyd's first step and bend are better. I guess we will see this week firsthand.

he's not elite or anything but he'd be the best edge rusher we've had since the fourth of july in 2015 (I know not saying much but they are obviously hard to find).
lol  
JonC : 10/15/2021 12:09 pm : link
yeah but $16M per would've been tough to swallow. I prefer more of a downhill force, a player who can wreck the edge of an OL and wear down his man. Seems this style of player is slowly dying out or is harder to find, but it was hella fun watching Justin Houston the other night.

Floyd looks a lot better on the Rams unit with talent all around him, but he's more of a swiss army knife in a bend don't break scheme. I'd rather have a versatile safety doing a lot of that role rather than the Edge having to play lateral or backwards.
RE: lol  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15414536 JonC said:
Quote:
yeah but $16M per would've been tough to swallow. I prefer more of a downhill force, a player who can wreck the edge of an OL and wear down his man. Seems this style of player is slowly dying out or is harder to find, but it was hella fun watching Justin Houston the other night.

Floyd looks a lot better on the Rams unit with talent all around him, but he's more of a swiss army knife in a bend don't break scheme. I'd rather have a versatile safety doing a lot of that role rather than the Edge having to play lateral or backwards.


The Rams don't put him in coverage much. 38 snaps this year so out of about 300 total. 162 rushing the passer. He's lined up on the DL for 279 of his snaps so it would seem he's only dropping into coverage 1-2 times per game (I assume zone blitzes).
Interesting  
JonC : 10/15/2021 12:15 pm : link
and a better usage of him. Still want a beast!
RE: Interesting  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15414548 JonC said:
Quote:
and a better usage of him. Still want a beast!


only place to get those is the draft. I wanted Rousseau over Toney at the time and he's been really good for the Bills but I think Toney was the better pick.

McKinney over Epinesa last year looks like a possible mistake. Hasn't started putting up big numbers yet but he passes the eye test.

Ojulari is obviously promising.
also for all the Josh Allen (DE) bitching the big miss was Brian Burns  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 12:41 pm : link
we were 1 pick away from getting him over Lawrence and I believe someone put it out there that he was our pick if he fell that 1 more spot. He'd have not only filled the need but probably would have allowed the room on the roster to allocate the $ necessary to keep Tomlinson long term.

Lawrence hasn't been a bust but he certainly hasn't provided the kind of impact expected yet.
Burns is a straight line speed guy  
JonC : 10/15/2021 12:55 pm : link
gonna watch him and Reddick carefully next week, but right now prefer the latter. Rousseau would've worked fine for me, Epenesa looks better than I expected, the Bills know what they're doing, sadly.
couldn't disagree about burns more - he has real bend and explosion  
Eric on Li : 10/15/2021 1:09 pm : link
he's a stud. 18 sacks and 4 FF in his first 2 years. 3 sacks in 5 games this year.
if he's legit  
JonC : 10/15/2021 1:14 pm : link
watch for teams to scheme against him, then we'll see how he holds up.
Obviously losing Martinez was big.  
jsuds : 10/15/2021 1:31 pm : link
But the lack of the DE's ever setting the edge makes for
big yardage for opposing O's who all appear to have figured this flaw out. We need DE's that can set the edge AND rush the passer.
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