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A Few Thoughts / Opinions on a Giant Rebuild

M.S. : 10/13/2021 10:18 am

Nate Davis of USA Today published his 2021 NFL Power rankings incorporating this past weekend of football (see link below, dated 10/12/2021). No need to mention the Giants are ahead of JAX, and that is all. The question is: How does this team break it's multi-year death-spiral so that one day we can see this franchise in the Top Half of these rankings?

The good news is that, for a team so lowly ranked, the Giants have several nice pieces in place. But "pieces" don't win games nor are they the "solution" until the stars we do have are woven together with a 53-man roster which plays together as a team! That of course requires more talent, not necessarily superstars, but more importantly it requires a General Manager and coaching staff that are talented and united in philosophy.

As for John Mara, the good news is the man has been willing to spend on the franchise, not necessarily wisely, but at least we can depend on his wallet if not his football acumen. As for the nepotism and internal organizational stagnation, Giants fans are just gonna have to live with that. The most critical next step is the hiring of a new G.M., and we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that John Mara makes a decision that takes him out of his comfort zone. If the new hire doesn't sound familiar, that's a clue he did so.

The current narrative is that Joe Judge is John Mara's guy so he gets at least one more season. A new G.M. changes that story toot sweet since he will make the change in Head Coach, thus alleviating John Mara of the painful and odious task of doing so.

With a new G.M. and Head Coach in place, the third phase of the Giants re-build gets underway. The first occurred
post-Super Bowl XLVI (beginning 2012 Season), when the Giants thought they could buttress Eli with a supporting cast for at least one more run. The second phase began with the hiring of Dave Gettleman, and will conclude at the end of this season with his farewell retirement speech.

Will the third phase be from new G.M., to new Head Coach, to new franchise QB? That's a tough one. There's a lot to like in Daniel Jones and he is far and away NOT the Giants biggest personnel problem, which extends beyond any given unit. Of course, we know which units require upgrading, but there is something more important in order to finally put the Giants on a sustainable path of respectable football.

Simply put, there are just too many players on this team who have experienced chronic losing. That isn't necessarily a reflection upon their own individual talent. It's more of an atmosphere / locker room / confidence issue, whereby the the parts are greater than the whole. In other words, the next phase of this Giants re-build will not be completed until several NFL-quality players on this current roster will be either associated with other teams or out of the league.

Link - ( New Window )
This has not been a rebuild  
averagejoe : 10/13/2021 10:27 am : link
It has been a Greek tragedy. We failed Eli because we could not improve OL despite investing high picks and money. We do not draft well and the few good players we select are chronically injured. Our GM needs to go, our coach is still a major question mark, all our best players are injured, and it looks like another top 5 pick this year.

Next year begins year ten of the current rebuild....lol
I'm in the  
Scooter185 : 10/13/2021 10:34 am : link
Blow it all up camp. As excited as I was for JJ last year, at best I'm indifferent to if he's our HC next season.

DG should have been gone with Shurmur. The fact that he's still here is a travesty.

And for the full clean slate I'd take a new QB as well.
RE: This has not been a rebuild  
M.S. : 10/13/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15411819 averagejoe said:
Quote:
It has been a Greek tragedy. We failed Eli because we could not improve OL despite investing high picks and money. We do not draft well and the few good players we select are chronically injured. Our GM needs to go, our coach is still a major question mark, all our best players are injured, and it looks like another top 5 pick this year.

Next year begins year ten of the current rebuild....lol

I believe our current G.M. will retire at the end of the season. And I believe his replacement will replace Joe Judge. And when we replace several familiar names on the current roster, we may yet raise this big ugly boat from the bottom!
RE: I'm in the  
M.S. : 10/13/2021 10:37 am : link
In comment 15411825 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Blow it all up camp. As excited as I was for JJ last year, at best I'm indifferent to if he's our HC next season.

DG should have been gone with Shurmur. The fact that he's still here is a travesty.

And for the full clean slate I'd take a new QB as well.

Without saying it, I'm sorta in the "half-blowing it all up" camp. Some of the players on this current roster can start a new winning tradition some day. I'm just not 100% certain which ones they are!
I'd keep Judge a while longer  
D HOS : 10/13/2021 11:04 am : link
He's a young first time HC. He's going to make mistakes. Let's see how he grows and matures for another season or two. Bill Belichick wasn't a good first time HC either. Other guys that were successful first time HC, some of them had a fair amount of luck helping them out. Judge has been singularly unlucky so far. And he hasn't shown yet any particular talent for "making your own luck".

New GM, new head of scouting, and new draft philosophy. Probably need a president of football operations to take over the John Mara role. John should be no more than our #1 fan and the guy who signs checks.

No more gold jacket special talent guys in the draft. Draft solid competent high floor guys at positional value for each pick. AT was a good example of this, despite the casual fan overacting to his injured rookie pandemic poor coaching season. Trade down in round 1 and 2 if the value on a high floor guy isn't there. We need about 3-4 "A+" drafts featuring high floor guys to really get the roster where it ought to be. After that, you can find your generational talent guys.

Maximize the positional talent deep into the roster. We will have a good roster when our 3rd depth guys could be starters on some other teams. No dedicated special teamers.

Those self scouting quality control assistants better be earning their pay. And the other coaches need to implement their feedback.

Focus on the fundamentals and maximize what our players do well, but also need to be creative to show no obvious tendencies. Predictability to a certain extent hurts this team. I mean on both sides of the ball. Other teams know what we can't defend. Don't advertise our weaknesses. The catch-22 is though that you can't be complex so that your players get confused. I read a lot of opinions that this and that player didn't know their assignment and messed up their job. Can't have that. I put that on coaches more than player.

I think mainly though, poor fundamentals (blocking, catching, tackling, following your blocks) and player confusion are hurting this team more than anything.

We have to figure out why we get so many hamstring and knee issues. Maybe skip some leg days?
I’m in the  
NYRiese : 10/13/2021 11:10 am : link
upgrade the entire talent evaluation department from GM down to the last hired college and pro scouts camp.
I'm leaning towards keeping JJ  
Gmen703 : 10/13/2021 11:23 am : link
But the coordinators & GM have to go.

No excuse to be this sorry on offense. Yes injuries happen, but that doesn't explain the mediocre trend that started with last season. Why can't we score 25 pts a game? Why can we only touch 30 pts once in a blue moon?

The defense has regressed big time (I know... Injuries). But I blame DG for this year's debacle. All that spending and nothing to show for it. The scheme is being exposed big time. No pass rushers...Easy completions. Who was that one GM that said "you can't have enough pass rushers?". He's probably somewhere laughing his ass off. What a rebuild...

Getting on my soap box about the....  
MarvelousMike : 10/13/2021 11:23 am : link
Scouting and Drafting departments at Giants Central. Look at the draft capital spent for the last few years on failed secondary players that have not worked out. This has led to costly FA like Bradberry and Jackson that have shown mixed results to date. I was under the wrong impression that the secondary was going to be a team strength this season. Why isn't it?!?
The OL is fit for time in the local hospital.
All these high draft picks and nothing to show for it.

WHY??
My thought is the rebuild is going poorly.  
Producer : 10/13/2021 11:27 am : link
Very poorly.
Good OP...  
Brown_Hornet : 10/13/2021 11:31 am : link
...I don't mind what DG/JJ et all have done in the 1st RD. It's what they have done after. It seems that they are trying to be that guy that takes the player that no one else is looking at so they can look like geniuses if he pans out...

Also, I still don't know what fan's think "blow it all up" means.
Compare 2004/05 drafts to 2018/19  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/13/2021 11:34 am : link
Eli, Snee, Torbor Wilson
Webster, Tuck, Jacobs

FA additions: O'Hara, Plax, McKenzie, Pierce

Barkley, Hernandez, Carter, Hill, lauletta, McIntosh
Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Xman

FA additions: Bradberry, Jackson, Solder, Martinez, Rudolph

Two years yielded drastically different results. I do not have the answers for who made all the decisions in 18/19 but they are not getting the necessary results from the additions and it translates to the field.

Jones versus Eli
Snee versus Hernandez
Xman/Carter versus Tuck
Barkley versus Jacobs

What also stands out is the difference in the physicality. Snee, Jacobs, Tuck, Mckenzie Versus Hernandez, Barkley, Carter, Solder

I think 20/21 drafts have a chance to be much more productive but 18/19 really hurt.

New GM (I think internally) and Judge/Jones come back. Next years draft can be a game changer if 20/21 pan out.


RE: Compare 2004/05 drafts to 2018/19  
TheBlueprintNC : 10/13/2021 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15411932 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Eli, Snee, Torbor Wilson
Webster, Tuck, Jacobs

FA additions: O'Hara, Plax, McKenzie, Pierce

Barkley, Hernandez, Carter, Hill, lauletta, McIntosh
Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Xman

FA additions: Bradberry, Jackson, Solder, Martinez, Rudolph

Two years yielded drastically different results. I do not have the answers for who made all the decisions in 18/19 but they are not getting the necessary results from the additions and it translates to the field.

Jones versus Eli
Snee versus Hernandez
Xman/Carter versus Tuck
Barkley versus Jacobs

What also stands out is the difference in the physicality. Snee, Jacobs, Tuck, Mckenzie Versus Hernandez, Barkley, Carter, Solder

I think 20/21 drafts have a chance to be much more productive but 18/19 really hurt.

New GM (I think internally) and Judge/Jones come back. Next years draft can be a game changer if 20/21 pan out.



Those were Accorsi and Gettleman btw.. Giant fans ran the Rug out and Mara decided to go with Reese bc of his scouting abilities. DG went to Carolin and helped add the finishing touches on the anthers who went to Super Bowl.
...  
christian : 10/13/2021 12:02 pm : link
If Judge's management arrow had continued to go up, my guess was Mara would give him the keys in partnership with a personnel guy like Abrams.

Judge's lack of experience is showing, so I don't expect that any longer.

I expect Gettleman to retire, and the Giants to hire a replacement with the same title and presumed duties.

I never really bought Gettleman as the HR guy. I believe he's a principal, and I expect the next guy will be as well.
Should Have Done It The Way Cowboys Did  
LTIsTheGreatest : 10/13/2021 12:14 pm : link
firs tthing they concentrated on was building an OLine. They spent alot of high draft picks on it and built it into one of the best OLines in football. Then they worried about their RBs and receivers and went from there
RE: Should Have Done It The Way Cowboys Did  
M.S. : 10/13/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15412028 LTIsTheGreatest said:
Quote:
firs tthing they concentrated on was building an OLine. They spent alot of high draft picks on it and built it into one of the best OLines in football. Then they worried about their RBs and receivers and went from there

I hear ya. And one more benefit — if the O-line is really kicking ass, it puts the defense in the excellent position of watching the game from the bench!
RE: I'd keep Judge a while longer  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/13/2021 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15411864 D HOS said:
Quote:
He's a young first time HC. He's going to make mistakes. Let's see how he grows and matures for another season or two. Bill Belichick wasn't a good first time HC either. Other guys that were successful first time HC, some of them had a fair amount of luck helping them out. Judge has been singularly unlucky so far. And he hasn't shown yet any particular talent for "making your own luck".

New GM, new head of scouting, and new draft philosophy. Probably need a president of football operations to take over the John Mara role. John should be no more than our #1 fan and the guy who signs checks.

No more gold jacket special talent guys in the draft. Draft solid competent high floor guys at positional value for each pick. AT was a good example of this, despite the casual fan overacting to his injured rookie pandemic poor coaching season. Trade down in round 1 and 2 if the value on a high floor guy isn't there. We need about 3-4 "A+" drafts featuring high floor guys to really get the roster where it ought to be. After that, you can find your generational talent guys.

Maximize the positional talent deep into the roster. We will have a good roster when our 3rd depth guys could be starters on some other teams. No dedicated special teamers.

Those self scouting quality control assistants better be earning their pay. And the other coaches need to implement their feedback.

Focus on the fundamentals and maximize what our players do well, but also need to be creative to show no obvious tendencies. Predictability to a certain extent hurts this team. I mean on both sides of the ball. Other teams know what we can't defend. Don't advertise our weaknesses. The catch-22 is though that you can't be complex so that your players get confused. I read a lot of opinions that this and that player didn't know their assignment and messed up their job. Can't have that. I put that on coaches more than player.

I think mainly though, poor fundamentals (blocking, catching, tackling, following your blocks) and player confusion are hurting this team more than anything.

We have to figure out why we get so many hamstring and knee issues. Maybe skip some leg days?


I imagine Judge had some say regarding the drafts. Not drafting any offensive lineman this last one could have been his oversight as well as Gettleman's.

If new GM cans him, that's fine with me. I actually rather that happen the more I think about it.
Right now, I say give JJ one more yr  
Payasdaddy : 10/13/2021 2:17 pm : link
He has to play starters some in preseason cause they needed it
And injuries on offense really limit seeing what offense could look like
I think offense would’ve hit its stride if it was healthy
Oline stuff hard to tell. Obviously u need another stud there
Maybe 2. But hard to tell withought gates and without seeing if Shane L would’ve progressed

Defense is a real disappointment
Saquon is what he is. Would probably shine on another team. If he has a good second half, I would look to package him before draft
Think u should get a 3 and 5 or if u want to be creative, throw In our #4 and maybe get a 2 and 5

JJ needs better game mgmt and I want a real alpha on D and coaching D. PG sharp intellect but I don’t see the rapid dog mentality
If Coughlin  
WillVAB : 10/13/2021 2:43 pm : link
Was on the hot seat in ‘06 after a division title and again in ‘07 after 2 consecutive playoff appearances, Judge should 100% be on the hot seat entering ‘22 given this fiasco.
The culture is putrid  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 3:20 pm : link
The biggest problems with the Giants is their culture. There is no pressure to perform...not for executives, coaches, or players.

Take the offense. Last year it was pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. In a year where scoring was up at a record pace they scored 17.5 points per game.

Did they replace the GM who assembled the roster? No.
Did they replace the offensive coordinator whose system is highly questionable? No.
Did they replace the QB or even bring in serious competition? No.

There was a massive underperformance by the most important unit on the team (the offense), and no changes were made to how it was assembled, coached, or operated. Where is the accountability? Where is the pressure to perform at a high level?

The Giants operate on a scholarship structure. They make their executives, coaches, and players prove their incompetence beyond a doubt, and then they replace them. They do not make their executives, coaches, and players prove their excellence by providing competition and challenging them to adapt to emerging ideas.

Statements like "Give him another year to prove himself" or "He gets the rest of the season to see if blah blah blah" are flashing danger signs. This is an ultra competitive environment where the best executives, coaches, and players rise out of a mix of intense competition. "Give him..." and "He gets..." don't apply.

This cultural issue has to be addressed before we can even talk about a rebuild. The players already on this roster...even the guys that might be good...aren't part of the solution. The culture laid down by ownership has infested every corner (front office, coaching, players) of the organization like mold in the walls. Until that issue is dealt with it doesn't matter how many picks we have or where we're drafting, how much cap space...we'll still just be hoping this is the time of the day the broken clock ended up being right.
RE: RE: Compare 2004/05 drafts to 2018/19  
Section331 : 10/13/2021 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15412003 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:

Those were Accorsi and Gettleman btw.. Giant fans ran the Rug out and Mara decided to go with Reese bc of his scouting abilities. DG went to Carolin and helped add the finishing touches on the anthers who went to Super Bowl.


Accorsi retired, nobody ran him out of anything. Where do some of you come up with this?
RE: The culture is putrid  
Sean : 10/13/2021 3:26 pm : link
In comment 15412342 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The biggest problems with the Giants is their culture. There is no pressure to perform...not for executives, coaches, or players.

Take the offense. Last year it was pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. In a year where scoring was up at a record pace they scored 17.5 points per game.

Did they replace the GM who assembled the roster? No.
Did they replace the offensive coordinator whose system is highly questionable? No.
Did they replace the QB or even bring in serious competition? No.

There was a massive underperformance by the most important unit on the team (the offense), and no changes were made to how it was assembled, coached, or operated. Where is the accountability? Where is the pressure to perform at a high level?

The Giants operate on a scholarship structure. They make their executives, coaches, and players prove their incompetence beyond a doubt, and then they replace them. They do not make their executives, coaches, and players prove their excellence by providing competition and challenging them to adapt to emerging ideas.

Statements like "Give him another year to prove himself" or "He gets the rest of the season to see if blah blah blah" are flashing danger signs. This is an ultra competitive environment where the best executives, coaches, and players rise out of a mix of intense competition. "Give him..." and "He gets..." don't apply.

This cultural issue has to be addressed before we can even talk about a rebuild. The players already on this roster...even the guys that might be good...aren't part of the solution. The culture laid down by ownership has infested every corner (front office, coaching, players) of the organization like mold in the walls. Until that issue is dealt with it doesn't matter how many picks we have or where we're drafting, how much cap space...we'll still just be hoping this is the time of the day the broken clock ended up being right.

This should be sent to John Mara.
RE: The culture is putrid  
KDavies : 10/13/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15412342 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The biggest problems with the Giants is their culture. There is no pressure to perform...not for executives, coaches, or players.

Take the offense. Last year it was pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. In a year where scoring was up at a record pace they scored 17.5 points per game.

Did they replace the GM who assembled the roster? No.
Did they replace the offensive coordinator whose system is highly questionable? No.
Did they replace the QB or even bring in serious competition? No.

There was a massive underperformance by the most important unit on the team (the offense), and no changes were made to how it was assembled, coached, or operated. Where is the accountability? Where is the pressure to perform at a high level?

The Giants operate on a scholarship structure. They make their executives, coaches, and players prove their incompetence beyond a doubt, and then they replace them. They do not make their executives, coaches, and players prove their excellence by providing competition and challenging them to adapt to emerging ideas.

Statements like "Give him another year to prove himself" or "He gets the rest of the season to see if blah blah blah" are flashing danger signs. This is an ultra competitive environment where the best executives, coaches, and players rise out of a mix of intense competition. "Give him..." and "He gets..." don't apply.

This cultural issue has to be addressed before we can even talk about a rebuild. The players already on this roster...even the guys that might be good...aren't part of the solution. The culture laid down by ownership has infested every corner (front office, coaching, players) of the organization like mold in the walls. Until that issue is dealt with it doesn't matter how many picks we have or where we're drafting, how much cap space...we'll still just be hoping this is the time of the day the broken clock ended up being right.


I agree with much of what you are saying, but you also can't be replacing the GM/Coach every year either. Gettleman took over a 3-13 team. You can't immediately fire him after a bad year or two with players left from the other regime. Similarly, if Gettleman and/or Judge is gone after this year, you can't be giving the next GM/Coach one season to turn it around.

and an additional note on Gettleman  
KDavies : 10/13/2021 3:35 pm : link
his first year here was also tasked with sticking with Eli and building around him. That quickly changed the next year into more of a rebuild with a new QB.
KDavies  
Go Terps : 10/13/2021 3:48 pm : link
Just more excuses, man. More reasons to keep people around who clearly aren't up for the job.

This situation has devolved to the point where I'd bet a lot of the fan base doesn't even give a shit about the game or who's playing in it. Do we have an reason to feel any attachment to any of these players? If the Giants traded their entire roster and came out Sunday with 53 players whose names we didn't know, what would be the difference?

There's just nothing here to feel good or even care about.
I'm not saying there is anybody here who needs to stay at this point  
KDavies : 10/13/2021 3:50 pm : link
Gettleman has had long enough at this point, and Judge has not impressed me either.
RE: and an additional note on Gettleman  
Section331 : 10/13/2021 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15412365 KDavies said:
Quote:
his first year here was also tasked with sticking with Eli and building around him. That quickly changed the next year into more of a rebuild with a new QB.


Gettleman himself talked Eli up and said he could still play, so either he was on board with building around Eli, or he just played along. I think the idea that the Mara's made his employment contingent on keeping Eli is spurious at best. After all, John Mara did sign off on McAdoo benching Eli.

But I agree, you couldn't fire him after year 1, but year 3? His "priority" OL was still among the worst in the NFL as was the entire offense. He should have been steered into retirement last January.
I'd give John Mara this list...  
D HOS : 10/13/2021 4:41 pm : link
1) John Mara, you should be as involved as Steve Tisch - however neither of you guys should not be involved in football decisions beyond hiring a "President of Football Operations".

2) Hire a President of Football Operations who has 100% control over anything to do with football. Owners should not be interviewing GM's nor Head Coaches.

3) Evaluate the President purely based on wins, titles, and lack of public disgrace / scandals.

4) The President will set the rest of the agenda.

4) When the President decides to remove Chris Mara from being over the scouting dept, don't blink at that.

5) Become the #1 fan - don't try to run anything outside of hiring the President. Celebrate only though, don't express criticism like us fans do.

6) Let yourself get about 1000x times as angry as you seem to be. If anger is slightly toppling over a chair, let your anger become actually throwing the chair and a desk through the window then punching a few vending machines on the way out. Let anger fuel the inspiration to make a decision, but don't let anger MAKE the decision. Use Logic to make one and only ONE decision - hire / replace the President to whom you cede 100% of football control.
if Peart and Thomas are the real deal...  
BillKo : 10/13/2021 4:56 pm : link
..that's going to be huge.

A new GM is going to be very attracted to the pieces we have on offense.

It's defense - at LB and on the DL - where we need additional game changers. We need guys with motors that don't turn off.

On MNF, I saw a Colts LB chase down Lamar Jackson. Jackson stil got yards but man I was impressed with the pursuit. I don't see that EVER with our defense.

Give me a new GM and an better way of scouting/evaluating players.

And I'll stick with DJ another year - unless he just digresses this year - since there are no clear cut QBs (right now).

Draft LB, DL, and OL.....and make hit on those two picks in the first round.
RE: if Peart and Thomas are the real deal...  
BillKo : 10/13/2021 4:58 pm : link
In comment 15412480 BillKo said:
Quote:
..that's going to be huge.

A new GM is going to be very attracted to the pieces we have on offense.

It's defense - at LB and on the DL - where we need additional game changers. We need guys with motors that don't turn off.

On MNF, I saw a Colts LB chase down Lamar Jackson. Jackson stil got yards but man I was impressed with the pursuit. I don't see that EVER with our defense.

Give me a new GM and an better way of scouting/evaluating players.

And I'll stick with DJ another year - unless he just digresses this year - since there are no clear cut QBs (right now).

Draft LB, DL, and OL.....and make hit on those two picks in the first round.


regresses lol
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