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Maybe the Problem is Joe Judge?

trueblueinpw : 10/13/2021 3:23 pm
Jason Garrett has been kicked in the nuts a lot (and with good reason) since last year. Patrick Graham is starting to draw fire for his poor defensive unit this season. Rightly so. Dave Gettleman gets his share of abuse here - also well deserved. And John Mara gets plenty of ire around here as well.

Leonard Williams is drawing fire now. Jones has been getting flack, of course since he was drafted. Many of us have even put a jaundice eye on Saquon. There’s a lot of different villains here on BBI and most stand accused with good reason. The Giants have been terrible.

But the one person who seems to have eluded almost any criticism is Joe Judge.

The lack of criticism for Judge seems odd for any number of reasons. Coaching is very important in the NFL. There’s plenty of NFL experts and former players and coaches that say coaching is *the* difference between winning and losing in the league. Maybe. Maybe not. But let’s agree that the coach on any NFL team is hardly an insignificant input to the equation for success. Culture, organization, schemes, personnel and game management are huge factors in winning in the NFL. The HC is ultimately responsible for much of these factors.

Experience matters. And Joe Judge had none as a HC at any level. This isn’t lost on any of us. And no previous HC experience is not necessarily a disqualifier for success. But, if you’ve never been a HC and then you take over a team and that team is lousy, maybe it’s fair to begin to wonder if you are the problem?

Take the defense for example. It’s been bad and maybe that’s Grahams fault. But shouldn’t the HC step in and make adjustments? Ditto the offense. Remember when Sean Payton was O-co and Fassel took over play calling? Happens fairly regularly in the league I think. But could Judge even do this on either side of the ball? And haven’t Special Teams gotten worse under Judge? Idk. Anyway, ultimately the HC is responsible for wins and losses and Judges record is pathetic.

Maybe the reason the Giants are so bad is that Joe Judge isn’t a good head coach?
where do you get the idea that Judge has escaped criticism?  
KDavies : 10/13/2021 3:25 pm : link
A lot of people have been very critical of him, even blaming him for losses (most specifically the WSH game). And he was very highly regarded by the majority of Giants fans prior to this season.
not a chance is Judge's fault  
Andy in Boston : 10/13/2021 3:27 pm : link
Lack of talent....and the wrong pieces + bad luck.

The Giants have a good coaching staff with proven winners.
How about  
The Jake : 10/13/2021 3:28 pm : link
there's not just one problem?

The organization is in disarray, from top to bottom.

Everyone is a problem.
The majority of what's out there of late  
UberAlias : 10/13/2021 3:29 pm : link
about Judge has been negative. If you believe he's avoiding criticism, I'd suggest you aren't reading enough.
He's Not *Thee* Reason  
BlueVinnie : 10/13/2021 3:32 pm : link
but he's part of the problem. It's Judge, Gettleman and several supposedly key players.

It's time to clean house.
RE: where do you get the idea that Judge has escaped criticism?  
Section331 : 10/13/2021 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15412346 KDavies said:
Quote:
A lot of people have been very critical of him, even blaming him for losses (most specifically the WSH game). And he was very highly regarded by the majority of Giants fans prior to this season.


I was wondering about that myself. I guess some people see what they want to see.

Not only is it not true that no one is blaming Judge, almost everyone assigns him at least some of the blame. The best you will see is that he deserves a 3rd year.
Judge gets no pass with me  
cjac : 10/13/2021 3:35 pm : link
So far his record suggests that he's not a good coach

I think he deserves another year, but how long are you gonna let a guy start out 1-5 or whatever every year before its time to move on
The  
DanMetroMan : 10/13/2021 3:37 pm : link
worst thing the Mara's can do is break this down less than 100%. Don't leave a new GM stuck with a coach he didn't hire. If you want Judge to be able to interview with the new guy then so be it. But the next GM of the Giants should be the one running the entire show. That includes opinions on DJ and Judge.
RE: The  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/13/2021 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15412368 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
worst thing the Mara's can do is break this down less than 100%. Don't leave a new GM stuck with a coach he didn't hire. If you want Judge to be able to interview with the new guy then so be it. But the next GM of the Giants should be the one running the entire show. That includes opinions on DJ and Judge.


+1
The thing that concerns me about Judge  
j_rud : 10/13/2021 3:44 pm : link
is that he and his team seemed more prepared last year, his first as a coach amid the height of covid. The conservative game plans, some of the puzzling in-game stuff, the lack of discipline and lackadaisical defense...maybe I'm off but I don't remember that being a factor last year.

Again, just my impression, but I wonder what he has changed or if the players have already begun to tune him out.
RE: The  
j_rud : 10/13/2021 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15412368 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
worst thing the Mara's can do is break this down less than 100%. Don't leave a new GM stuck with a coach he didn't hire. If you want Judge to be able to interview with the new guy then so be it. But the next GM of the Giants should be the one running the entire show. That includes opinions on DJ and Judge.


Nostalgic loyalty to Eli along with keeping Reese instead of canning him along with Coughlin are IMO arguably the 2 biggest blunders of the last decade. Absolutely emblematic of the leadership failings and blindspots.
this week is the only game where  
cjac : 10/13/2021 3:52 pm : link
i'll give Joe Judge a pass.

Because there isnt a coach thats ever lived that could win this game coming up this week with all these starters hurt
I personally believe  
RollBlue : 10/13/2021 3:52 pm : link
that if we had average coaching, the team would be 3-2 at a minimum. The first few games of the year there were occasions on both sides of the ball that the players didn't know what they were doing even after a time out.

What other team, college or pro, gives up a TD at the end of every single half???
Judge has been criticized plenty  
Mike from Ohio : 10/13/2021 3:55 pm : link
But he is not the only problem. This team has several. The talent acquisition has been well below average. The offensive and defensive play calling are overly conservative (almost appearing to be an admission by the coaching staff that they don't trust the players they have). And finally there are plenty of players who were in position to make plays and win games and simply didn't (Slayton, Bradberry, Ryan).

There is not one single cause of the Giants extended failure. It is all of these pieces working in tandem.
RE: The thing that concerns me about Judge  
Andrew in Austin : 10/13/2021 3:59 pm : link
In comment 15412374 j_rud said:
Quote:
is that he and his team seemed more prepared last year, his first as a coach amid the height of covid. ...


+1. First indication was pre-season, not playing the starters, etc... Very different vibe/feel than last year - even when we were losing.
I like the way Judge conducts himself...  
bw in dc : 10/13/2021 3:59 pm : link
and I feel good about his football acumen (generally).

But he was hired with training wheels (Garrett), a GM way past his prime (assuming he actually had one), and Jones is NOT his QB. So that's a lot of key ingredients to inherit.

So I'm willing to be more patient with him. But I certainly get the criticism.
RE: The  
santacruzom : 10/13/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15412368 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
worst thing the Mara's can do is break this down less than 100%. Don't leave a new GM stuck with a coach he didn't hire. If you want Judge to be able to interview with the new guy then so be it. But the next GM of the Giants should be the one running the entire show. That includes opinions on DJ and Judge.


Exactly. If the Giants don't rebound and head into the offseason with a sub 5 win record and a top 5 pick, they have a rare opportunity to reset with a new GM, couch, and QB should they choose to. Doing so will basically eliminate the ability to add more years to a rebuild by trotting out some, "We need to see how X will do with a different Y" excuse.
RE: I like the way Judge conducts himself...  
Mike from Ohio : 10/13/2021 4:02 pm : link
In comment 15412411 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and I feel good about his football acumen (generally).

But he was hired with training wheels (Garrett), a GM way past his prime (assuming he actually had one), and Jones is NOT his QB. So that's a lot of key ingredients to inherit.

So I'm willing to be more patient with him. But I certainly get the criticism.


And sometimes he doesn't understand the rules of the game, like throwing a challenge flag on a scoring play which cost 15 yards, and he hasn't been really sharp with his timeouts.

I don't think Judge is a lost cause by any means, but I also don't think he was as prepared to be a HC in the NFL as many of us - including me - believed.
RE: The  
Victor in CT : 10/13/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15412368 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
worst thing the Mara's can do is break this down less than 100%. Don't leave a new GM stuck with a coach he didn't hire. If you want Judge to be able to interview with the new guy then so be it. But the next GM of the Giants should be the one running the entire show. That includes opinions on DJ and Judge.


agreed. otherwise they might as well just give them another year.
The Giants organization had flushed several times...  
BamaBlue : 10/13/2021 4:07 pm : link
new coaches, new scouts, new players; same result. The one constant has been John Mara.
RE: not a chance is Judge's fault  
Regular Coffee : 10/13/2021 4:11 pm : link
In comment 15412348 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
Lack of talent....and the wrong pieces + bad luck.

The Giants have a good coaching staff with proven winners.


Andy - I love your sarcasm!
RE: The Giants organization had flushed several times...  
AnnapolisMike : 10/13/2021 4:16 pm : link
In comment 15412421 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
new coaches, new scouts, new players; same result. The one constant has been John Mara.


This...4 head coaches in 6 years? It is NOT the coaching. It is how this team is being built. 10 years of an inconsistent OL and defensive front seven. We are 59-91 since the 2011 Superbowl.
Giants could be very easily 3-2 or 2-3 imo  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/13/2021 4:19 pm : link
That is a big deal. It changes the total outlook. Dallas could still get hit with injuries. WFT and Philly are not very good teams. I think coaching was a big part of it.

I have no issues with growing on the job. Make mistakes. Acknowledge, correct and press forward.

What is different today is you do not get very much time to see results before the player's (media even faster) turn on you.

The "Process" has to translate in results and imo very soon.

I am concerned also at his ability to evaluate talent both in players and coaches.
This team has issues.  
CV36 : 10/13/2021 4:20 pm : link
So does every team. It’s not one persons fault. The biggest consistent issue is our defense. What’s maddening is how people want to blow it up for weeks the. We beat a bad Saints team and suddenly we have our franchise QB, Judge is finally getting it done and they have been playing hard. The truth is we are not very good. We are a bottom 10 team. It can be turned around but who knows if Judge can. It is unrealistic to expect the current Giants to beat the Rams, Chiefs or Bucs. Is there a chance yes but not likely. We will also likely lose to the chargers and Dallas again. Split with the Eagles if Lucky. That’s 10 losses if we manage to beat Carolina, LV and Chicago and WFT. Also not likely. 3-4 wins is likely. Then what? Keep Judge? Start over? We need talent and adjustment but we have a culture problem. If Judge is the right guy they will surprise us. If we lose 12 or more games then what are we waiting for?
Something I was thinking about the other day...  
BillKo : 10/13/2021 4:23 pm : link
...20 games into his regime, and have we had a big special teams play?

No KO return or punt returns for sure.

But has the specials even caused a turnover? I can't recall.

Gano's been lights out but he's the kicker, I could coach him lol...just let him do his thing.

Really weird.
Judge gets criticism  
ghost718 : 10/13/2021 4:24 pm : link
But it's a slow process

It's not easy to go from the next Parcells to dog meat.
I liked Judge well enough last season, but there were warning signs:  
japanhead : 10/13/2021 5:23 pm : link
The thing with Colombo, the braindead game plans vs Arizona, Cleveland, Baltimore.

He's been dreadful this year and any benefit of the doubt he earned last year has dried up through these first five games, or at least that's what Mara should be thinking.
RE: Giants could be very easily 3-2 or 2-3 imo  
RicFlair : 10/13/2021 5:35 pm : link
In comment 15412436 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
That is a big deal. It changes the total outlook. Dallas could still get hit with injuries. WFT and Philly are not very good teams. I think coaching was a big part of it.

I have no issues with growing on the job. Make mistakes. Acknowledge, correct and press forward.

What is different today is you do not get very much time to see results before the player's (media even faster) turn on you.

The "Process" has to translate in results and imo very soon.

I am concerned also at his ability to evaluate talent both in players and coaches.



And they could even easier be 0-5.
Maybe the game coaching  
Joe Beckwith : 10/13/2021 5:52 pm : link
But not the unknown quantity: the injuries.
Judge talks a good game,  
Gman11 : 10/13/2021 6:13 pm : link
but don't all coaches?

As fans, all we see is the in-game decisions. We don't know what goes on in practices and meeting rooms. Whether or not he's a good coach? All we really have to go by is the end results and we have to ask ourselves: Is the team improving? Do they look like they will be a contender soon? Right now I would say no and no.
Yeah, guess I missed the Judge criticism threads  
trueblueinpw : 10/13/2021 7:34 pm : link
I’m here every day and I don’t recall seeing much criticism of Judge. Haven’t seen much in the media either though I could easily miss that.

This summer there were a lot of poster here who thought Judge was heavily influencing the GM. There’s been plenty of people who have suggested getting rid of Getty and giving Judge the authority to pick his own GM.

But, yeah, I haven’t seen much criticism of Judge as the HC.
RE: How about  
cosmicj : 10/13/2021 8:40 pm : link
In comment 15412350 The Jake said:
Quote:
there's not just one problem?

The organization is in disarray, from top to bottom.

Everyone is a problem.


+1

The Giants are one of those organizations that drag people into incompetence. You take a guy like Garrett who has experienced a lot of NFL success and suddenly he is being heavily criticized while running a bottom rung offensive program. Mark Koncz ran a quite successful pro personnel program for decades and the Giants pro acquisitions are a garbage barge.

Are all of these people incompetent? I’m very skeptical. I think the Giants are a Vortex of Suck.
RE: RE: How about  
FStubbs : 10/13/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15412778 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 15412350 The Jake said:


Quote:


there's not just one problem?

The organization is in disarray, from top to bottom.

Everyone is a problem.



+1

The Giants are one of those organizations that drag people into incompetence. You take a guy like Garrett who has experienced a lot of NFL success and suddenly he is being heavily criticized while running a bottom rung offensive program. Mark Koncz ran a quite successful pro personnel program for decades and the Giants pro acquisitions are a garbage barge.

Are all of these people incompetent? I’m very skeptical. I think the Giants are a Vortex of Suck.


There's something to be said for this. Justin Pugh is a solid starter for Arizona. Flowers is doing okay (at best) in Washington. Zeitler is fine in Baltimore. Zeitler and Solder were solid offensive linemen and sucked here. Hernandez as a rookie was a WAY better guard than he is now.

Thomas is probably the first player in years who actually improved while wearing blue (Well, and Gates, but thanks to a bonehead decision to move him to guard, he may have sadly played his last NFL game). Literally everyone else has treaded water or gotten worse the longer they've been in the uniform.

There's a lot of reasons why, but overall, the organization is just rotten to the core.
RE: Judge talks a good game,  
FStubbs : 10/13/2021 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15412605 Gman11 said:
Quote:
but don't all coaches?

As fans, all we see is the in-game decisions. We don't know what goes on in practices and meeting rooms. Whether or not he's a good coach? All we really have to go by is the end results and we have to ask ourselves: Is the team improving? Do they look like they will be a contender soon? Right now I would say no and no.


Shurmur had a distinct inability to talk a good game and that's part of what led to his demise.
Assuming they fire DG  
Mike from Ohio : 10/13/2021 8:51 pm : link
There is no way you let Judge pick the next GM. He’ll have him looking for every ex-Patriot special teamed in the league.

Judge has not done anything to this point in his tenure to be handed that level of responsibility.
Judge is not qualified to be  
Bill in TN : 10/13/2021 8:56 pm : link
an NFL head coach. He's a clueless, arrogant asshole. Not surprising as his mentors/heroes, Belichick and Saban, are also arrogant assholes. Apple didn't fall far from the tree.
JJ should get no say whatsoever regarding who the next GM of the NYG  
Optimus-NY : 10/13/2021 10:16 pm : link
is. It would be best if the new GM and HC are on the same wavelength of course, but the HC should not essentially hire the GM. JJ needs to focus on how to manage the game and take time outs appropriately, as well as know when to throw a challenge flag before anything else (all stuff TC excelled at FWIW).
The problem is absolutely Joe Judge  
Giants73 : 10/13/2021 10:35 pm : link
Zero ideas for offensive and defensive designs and schemes. Takes zero accountability. One of the beats finally asked him about game planning and he even deferred that. I believe he said we all get in a room and do that together. Uses too many roster spots on special teamers. Does not know how to manage a game. Looks like he just wants close games. Afraid to take any risks. Have the giants gone for a 4th down in the first 3 quarters this year. Coaches by feel, in the Washington game, what type of feel did he have that the defense would prevent a FG with 2 minutes left on the clock. Should be shown the door, let Garrett and his .500 record coach. At least it won’t be a guaranteed loss each week
It’s Coughlin!  
Daniel in MI : 10/14/2021 9:57 am : link
No, it’s MacAdoo!
No, it’s Shurmur!
No, it’s Judge!

You can’t win games consistently if you don’t control the LOS on either side of the ball. We don’t. Period.
RE: It’s Coughlin!  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/14/2021 9:59 am : link
In comment 15413137 Daniel in MI said:
Quote:
No, it’s MacAdoo!
No, it’s Shurmur!
No, it’s Judge!

You can’t win games consistently if you don’t control the LOS on either side of the ball. We don’t. Period.

So weird, I could have sworn that DG promised that he was going to build the roster from the lines out.
I really like Judge.  
JohninSC : 10/14/2021 10:38 am : link
I was hoping when they got rid of Shurmur it would be a package deal with Gettleman. I'm afraid the new GM will want his own guy and Judge is unfairly booted because his GM gave him very little to work with.
RE: I really like Judge.  
trueblueinpw : 10/14/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15413164 JohninSC said:
Quote:
I was hoping when they got rid of Shurmur it would be a package deal with Gettleman. I'm afraid the new GM will want his own guy and Judge is unfairly booted because his GM gave him very little to work with.


I liked Judge too after his first presser. I liked him a lot and that presser allayed much of my concern about his lack of HC experience. But since then, what’s he done to keep our trust? He’s not winning games and no one seems to be getting better or improving. I get it, he seems like he should be a good coach, but at what point does he need to be held accountable for something more then talking to the media?
Unfairly boot Judge  
Giants73 : 10/14/2021 1:46 pm : link
What would he have to do at this point to be fairly booted. Guessing something illegal, or text with Gruden? The guy has shown he is incompetent. Can’t manage a game. Can’t design plays. Defense is a mess. What players did this guy want and not get. Everyone had to have two day interviews with him to get signed
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