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Daniel Jones ranked 18th QB

Alan W : 10/13/2021 4:36 pm
He's certainly adequate -- and unlikely to be unseated.
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RE: RE: and still nobody can explain  
Producer : 10/14/2021 7:47 am : link
In comment 15412987 Debaser said:
Quote:
In comment 15412980 Producer said:


Quote:


If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?

When do the training wheels come off?

Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.




In all fairness I don’t think that’s all on jones. I think this team and defense especially are not good enough to even overcome one turnover and win a game so perhaps Garrett/ judge decided to go ultra conservative. But at the same time it might be their assessment of jones is that he’ll look a lot like Glennon if they turn him loose

It’s just kinda weird that in year three he’s a mystery; I would think in the nfl that is a bad sign not a good one. And now I guess I I understand the Garrett hate around here. But I’m still completely amazed how people see a mystery at best in jones automatically assume the best ; pump him up to be a top 3 QB ; and just assume a former vet QB above .500 coach has no clue about football. You gotta love this place lol.


No, it is primarily on Jones. They reduced the offense last season, putting him on a leash, to avoid his mistakes, and they have not yet opened the offense fully.
Didn’t  
Ron Johnson : 10/14/2021 8:01 am : link
Jones just win offensive player of the week?

With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
RE: Didn’t  
Producer : 10/14/2021 8:06 am : link
In comment 15413004 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
Jones just win offensive player of the week?

With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.


So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?

Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?

Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
RE: Didn’t  
Producer : 10/14/2021 8:07 am : link
In comment 15413004 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
Jones just win offensive player of the week?

With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.


So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?

Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?

Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
Elite QB's  
Gruber : 10/14/2021 8:22 am : link
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
RE: Didn’t  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2021 8:34 am : link
In comment 15413004 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
Jones just win offensive player of the week?

With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.


With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.

A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.
RE: Elite QB's  
Producer : 10/14/2021 8:35 am : link
In comment 15413021 Gruber said:
Quote:
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.


I agree with a lot of this. Though I think the Browns are a legit contender. You are right that Mayfield is good, not great. If they had an elite QB they would be the favorites rather than 4th favorite, or so. They are a good example for this Jones conversation. If Jones becomes a decent QB we need to have as much or more than what the Browns have to become SB contenders. They have an elite OL, elite RBs and a great D. Getting all these systems to that level is difficult, and it is impossible to sustain for long periods. Building a champion without a great QB is a difficult task.


I agree with everything else you say.
What is…  
thrunthrublue : 10/14/2021 12:25 pm : link
His record? Winning pct.?
RE: What is…  
Go Terps : 10/14/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15413284 thrunthrublue said:
Quote:
His record? Winning pct.?


9-22. .290.
if the Giants are serious about winning again  
djm : 10/14/2021 12:34 pm : link
they need to take the low hanging fruit when available and improve some part of this team. If that means getting the legendary QB and punting Jones to the moon, so be it. Jones is the guy for now. If there doesn't appear to be anyone out there that is clearly an upgrade, he can be the guy until, but the Giants don't owe Jones a fucking thing.

I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.

If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.
RE: if the Giants are serious about winning again  
Go Terps : 10/14/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15413304 djm said:
Quote:
they need to take the low hanging fruit when available and improve some part of this team. If that means getting the legendary QB and punting Jones to the moon, so be it. Jones is the guy for now. If there doesn't appear to be anyone out there that is clearly an upgrade, he can be the guy until, but the Giants don't owe Jones a fucking thing.

I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.

If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.


A highly paid vet isn't going to be an option. The Giants assured themselves of that when they threw money at Williams, Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, etc.

If they're going to make a change at QB it should look like this:

1. Trade Jones this offseason
2. Identify a couple QB prospects in this draft and hope you can get them at the appropriate range - don't reach or force anything.

If you can't execute #2 for whatever reason, find a cheap free agent. 2022 is going to be a mess anyway.
RE: and still nobody can explain  
Now Mike in MD : 10/14/2021 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15412980 Producer said:
Quote:
If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?

When do the training wheels come off?

Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.


I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond
For people questioning Dak  
chuckydee9 : 10/14/2021 1:37 pm : link
Last year he had a shit OL and he was still kicking ass till he got injured... go ahead and check his stats or performance..

I don't think Daniel Jones is bad.. but lets not say that Mahomes would suck as bad and pretend like we would still not win 7 games last year if we had Mahomes..

DJ can be good and I don't see him being bad yet..
RE: RE: Didn’t  
Scooter185 : 10/14/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15413030 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15413004 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:


Jones just win offensive player of the week?

With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.



With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.

A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.


It's funny because I've seen people ding CFB QBs at top schools because they have the best line and skill players in the country, and that won't be the case in the NFL. Yet the narrative around DJ is that he can't be evaluated without a similar offense to those top colleges.

If he needs everything just perfect then he's not a franchise QB. Doesn't mean he can't win, but he's not a 2nd contract guy
RE: Elite QB's  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15413021 Gruber said:
Quote:
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.


Nice post. However you want to characterize it - "wow" factor - you just watch these other QBs similar in experience and age to Jones and the difference in skill level can be pretty profound. We are watching QBs like Herbert, Allen and LJax who just have otherworldly skills. The ability at such a young age to put their teams on their shoulders and make plays. It's turning into a great era of young QBs...
For the Jones detractors  
Archer : 10/14/2021 2:10 pm : link
There are many examples of QBs who were thought to be busts and then they moved to a new team and played well.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.

What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.

Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.


He is the top-rated long passer in football.
Quote:
Daniel Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL at throwing the deep ball, per data released recently by Next Gen Stats.


He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,
Quote:
Per NFL's NextGen stats, Jones reached a top-speed of 21.23 miles per hour on his 80-yard, which is faster than any quarterback — including Ravens star Lamar Jackson — has reached since 2018. It was the 15th-fastest play of the 2020 season, per NextGen.


He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)
Quote:
https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-runs-in-2-pt-conversion-giants-vs-falcons-highlights


He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.

He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.

I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.
Quote:
According to PFF: he “also led the position in positively graded throws and recorded the week’s lowest negatively graded throw rate.”

His Deep throw rating is elite
Quote:
Deep attempts: 19-of-39, 636 yards, 5:0 TD-to-INT ratio, 134.3 passer rating


This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.
Quote:
"A key part of determining expected completion percentage is the separation of a receiver from the nearest defender at the time a pass arrives.
Nextgen
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.

Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.

You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.

Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.

There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.

Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated
Quote:
“Overall, Jones lacks elite arm strength, but he has a nice blend of size, toughness and football smarts,’’ noted Daniel Jeremiah, draft analyst for NFL Network.


This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)

Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)

This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.

Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.

Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.

It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated

Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.

There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.

Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.

If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.

.  
BrettNYG10 : 10/14/2021 2:13 pm : link
Quote:
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.


Tannehill is the only one of those you listed that is an above-average QB.

Quote:
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.


This is incorrect - his touchdown production is poor. I want Jones producing touchdowns and leading a good offense. He hasn't done that.
RE: For the Jones detractors  
Producer : 10/14/2021 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15413521 Archer said:
Quote:
There are many examples of QBs who were thought to be busts and then they moved to a new team and played well.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.

What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.

Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.


He is the top-rated long passer in football.

Quote:


Daniel Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL at throwing the deep ball, per data released recently by Next Gen Stats.



He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,

Quote:


Per NFL's NextGen stats, Jones reached a top-speed of 21.23 miles per hour on his 80-yard, which is faster than any quarterback — including Ravens star Lamar Jackson — has reached since 2018. It was the 15th-fastest play of the 2020 season, per NextGen.



He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)


Quote:


https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-runs-in-2-pt-conversion-giants-vs-falcons-highlights



He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.

He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.

I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.

Quote:


According to PFF: he “also led the position in positively graded throws and recorded the week’s lowest negatively graded throw rate.”


His Deep throw rating is elite


Quote:


Deep attempts: 19-of-39, 636 yards, 5:0 TD-to-INT ratio, 134.3 passer rating



This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.


Quote:


"A key part of determining expected completion percentage is the separation of a receiver from the nearest defender at the time a pass arrives.

Nextgen
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.

Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.

You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.

Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.

There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.

Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated

Quote:


“Overall, Jones lacks elite arm strength, but he has a nice blend of size, toughness and football smarts,’’ noted Daniel Jeremiah, draft analyst for NFL Network.



This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)

Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)

This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.

Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.

Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.

It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated

Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.

There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.

Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.

If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.


These are the same tired arguments which have been debunked in 100 posts. The most egregious is that somehow Jones is a top-3 deep ball passer, based on an exotic next gen stat rooted in a small sample size (39 throws), which he is clearly not if you just watch football teams other than the Giants. But even if we accept that this data is correct, you then must deal with numbers from the same data set, and based on much higher (better) sample sizes, which say that Jones is about the very worst QB in small to intermediate throw accuracy. His inaccuracy in these ranges is pretty damning. If you can't throw short to medium you can't really hold a job as an NFL QB.

But just based on eye test there are 12 to 15 QBs that throw deep with more zip and effectiveness than Jones. And if you are going to argue that Jones somehow has a better deep ball than Herbert or Wilson, I'll have to ask you, where are the TDs? You will be alone on an island with these arguments.
RE: RE: and still nobody can explain  
Producer : 10/14/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15413427 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15412980 Producer said:


Quote:


If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?

When do the training wheels come off?

Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.




I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond


So you don't remember in the middle of last season Judge/Garrett changed the focus of the offense to reduce turnovers and have Jones focus on getting the ball out? And this season we have posters on this board complaining that the offense is rudimentary and conservative. It's roughly the same offense as the middle of last season, conservative to reduce mistakes and turnovers. You don't know this? You don't remember last season?

So why did we have to dumb down the offense to reduce mistakes in the middle of this QBs second year, and still have this offensive scheme in place into his third year? Whereas other QBs are taking off in their third year (or second year) and play without training wheels.
producer  
Archer : 10/14/2021 5:14 pm : link
You cannot debunk facts
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias

These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance

It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.

I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind

I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?

I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.

I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.

I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.


I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.

If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future

And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.

RE: producer  
Producer : 10/14/2021 5:34 pm : link
In comment 15413705 Archer said:
Quote:
You cannot debunk facts
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias

These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance

It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.

I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind

I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?

I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.

I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.

I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.


I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.

If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future

And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.


When he was drafted I was cautiously optimistic because Gettleman said he had a conviction about the player. That's what you want. You want your management to have a thoughtful conviction about the QB. I was only cautiously optimistic because Daniel Jones came out of college with no elite traits. None. I can guide you to the Cosell summary of Jones if you have any questions about that.

I soured on Jones last season when the turnovers and mental miscues, and lack of pocket awareness, and general inaccuracy became apparent. I see a stiff, robotic QB, who doesn't have enough instincts to overcome a merely adequate throwing ability. I think this is painfully obvious and I'm not sure why you don't see it. People are joking on here that if he's not Tom Brady or Mahomes, I won't be happy. Ummm.. yea... that's actually correct. We had a chance to get Mahomes last season, in Herbert, because we were fiddling with this kid. We passed on a franchise-altering talent *to see* if Jones can be good. As a management principle I would suggest to all NFL teams, if you don't know that your QB is good, you should assume he is no good, and keep looking. It's pretty simple.
Arch...  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 5:59 pm : link
Uh, Malik Willis is a better prospect than Jones was coming out of college.
Thanks for the response  
Archer : 10/14/2021 6:05 pm : link
I believe that your concerns about Jones were justified
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career

But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.

He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.

He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.


Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.

I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.

I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?

Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.

The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.

.  
Gruber : 10/14/2021 6:06 pm : link
I'm looking at three drafts in succession from 2013 thru 2015 and what lean years they were for quarterbacks.

2012 gave the NFL Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannehill, Nick Foles and RG3. Okay, a mixed bag, but two players of considerable quality, a few other starters.
2013, almost entirely backups or didn't prove themselves as starters, the highest profile name of the 11 drafted being Geno Smith.
2014, Derek Carr, Garropolo and Bridgewater.
2015, Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston go one and two. No other name of note.
2016, Goff, Wentz, Prescott.
2017, Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson.
So, three really lean years, the point being that there is currrently little buzz about next year's QB class and it may be that with a high pick and extra picks, there just may not be any fruit on the tree.
Ergo, even if he doesn't do a whole lot this season, we may have to re-sign Daniel Jones and keep praying.
RE: Arch...  
Archer : 10/14/2021 6:13 pm : link
Have you seen Willis play this year or last year?
He is raw, undisciplined, and folds under pressure.

He has exquisite skills that make up for his poor play
He can run and he has a strong arm .
He is not an accurate passer.

He plays against a low level of competition which makes it hard to project him as a pro.

I am not impressed

I believe that there will be at least two QBs drafted before him.
RE: Thanks for the response  
Producer : 10/14/2021 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15413735 Archer said:
Quote:
I believe that your concerns about Jones were justified
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career

But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.

He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.

He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.


Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.

I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.

I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?

Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.

The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.


The problem though with reducing turnovers is that it came at a cost. The offense is now not productive. It doesn't produce touchdowns. He has to limit the turnovers while throwing TD passes. What we have is still unacceptable, it's just a different kind of unacceptable. Here are some 2021
passing only TD/INT:

Prescott 13/3
Stafford 12/3
Kyler 10/4
Cousins 10/2
Allen 12/2
Herbert 13/3
Brady 15/2
Rodgers 10/3
Ryan 10/3
Mahomes 16/6
Lamar 8/4

You have to score TDs in abundance in the 2021 NFL. That's all there is to it. You have to come out slinging. Interceptions aren't such a big deal if you are throwing enough TDs, certainly if it is at a 3:1, or 4:1 ratio.
RE: RE: Arch...  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 6:24 pm : link
In comment 15413739 Archer said:
Quote:
Have you seen Willis play this year or last year?
He is raw, undisciplined, and folds under pressure.

He has exquisite skills that make up for his poor play
He can run and he has a strong arm .
He is not an accurate passer.

He plays against a low level of competition which makes it hard to project him as a pro.

I am not impressed

I believe that there will be at least two QBs drafted before him.


Yes, in fact I am going to watch him live in late October against Louisiana.

Willis was at Auburn before he transferred. So he is a high level athlete. He's completing 68% of his passes this year. So let's establish a baseline of facts before you spew inaccuracies.
Willis  
Archer : 10/14/2021 7:03 pm : link
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?

Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.

If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.


Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.

I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
Jones proclamations are premature  
Thegratefulhead : 10/14/2021 7:20 pm : link
We are getting the rest of this year. If he doesn't start putting the ball into the end zone with frequency when we get inside the twenty you are going to have to accept he just isn't good enough.

If we start scoring points and winning games, you were wrong about Jones sucking.

Me

I don't have a clue anymore, I thought he was going to be the shit, then he was just shit, and now I don't know shit when I see it.

Let's watch.

RE: Willis  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/14/2021 7:21 pm : link
In comment 15413777 Archer said:
Quote:
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?

Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.

If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.


Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.

I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing at "if he entered the porthole"
RE: Willis  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 7:34 pm : link
In comment 15413777 Archer said:
Quote:
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?

Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.

If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.


Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.

I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.


Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.

He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.

So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.

RE: RE: Willis  
Producer : 10/14/2021 7:36 pm : link
In comment 15413814 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15413777 Archer said:


Quote:


Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?

Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.

If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.


Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.

I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.



Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.

He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.

So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.


I know nothing of the kid but from your description he sounds like Trey Lance, but with less size.
Willis is Jackson Lite  
Archer : 10/14/2021 7:45 pm : link
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB?
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?

You know what you have with Jones build a team around him

If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
Producer...  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 7:45 pm : link
Here are some highlights from 2020. Some interesting ability...
Willis - ( New Window )
Producer  
Archer : 10/14/2021 7:51 pm : link
So lets see if Jones can make more plays and score more TDs
It would seem if he can do that then you would be on board?

Jones has lost two tds this year, his run that negated by holding and the the dropped pass by Slayton

Lets see what happens going forward
RE: Willis is Jackson Lite  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 8:03 pm : link
In comment 15413822 Archer said:
Quote:
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB?
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?

You know what you have with Jones build a team around him

If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.


I'm willing to let this year play out with Jones. If he doesn't look like the long term solution, yes, I would support making a high investment in Willis.

I don't know how long Willis would take to develop. But he is worth the stretch...
RE: Producer  
Producer : 10/14/2021 8:08 pm : link
In comment 15413831 Archer said:
Quote:
So lets see if Jones can make more plays and score more TDs
It would seem if he can do that then you would be on board?

Jones has lost two tds this year, his run that negated by holding and the the dropped pass by Slayton

Lets see what happens going forward


We need a top-8 QB to be a consistent Super Bowl contender. That to me is the general rule. If Jones becomes that, of course I am on board. I will be thrilled to be wrong. I think in year three the likelihood this will happen is exceedingly low. How many QBs go from subpar to elite after year 3. It's not many in the recent history of the game. Especially if they don't have unique traits. I know many point to Josh Allen but he also had staggering athletic and passing traits to go along with a lot of wins. I don't see the comparison, at all. This is why I feel it is an imperative to see the truth of the situation. Banking on Jones transforming into an elite QB is an extremely low probability. So while I do not favor cutting or trading Jones unless we get a great offer, I do think we need to explore every avenue to upgrade.

The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.
RE: Producer...  
Producer : 10/14/2021 8:09 pm : link
In comment 15413823 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Here are some highlights from 2020. Some interesting ability... Willis - ( New Window )


Thanks I will check this out tonight!
I think we are swimming up stream with DJ.  
xman : 10/14/2021 8:52 pm : link
He is passable
RE: Producer...  
Producer : 10/14/2021 9:27 pm : link
In comment 15413823 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Here are some highlights from 2020. Some interesting ability... Willis - ( New Window )


I like him. He looks to have solid arm talent and he has the burst of a wide out. He does get run down by a defender in the long run but he is an explosive and decisive runner. I wish he was bigger. He reminds me of Kyler a bit. Less explosive but maybe a better arm.

If you draft him you have to build an offense designed for him a la Lamar and Kyler.
Producer...  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 9:57 pm : link
The throw at 4:40 under pressure where he hits the receiver 40+ down the sideline is a special throw. The throw at 5:35 against VT on the run is terrific.

The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.

The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.

He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.

I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.
RE: Willis is Jackson Lite  
Scooter185 : 10/14/2021 10:05 pm : link
In comment 15413822 Archer said:
Quote:
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB? how's that different than the last 2.25 seasons? But yes
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over until they get it right
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out? yes. A full reboot with a clear vision would do a lot for my confidence. Including being OK with 2-3 years of growing pains. Better than the perpetual "one year/ player away" folly we're in now

You know what you have with Jones build a team around him

If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.


Replies in bold
RE: Producer...  
Producer : 10/14/2021 10:08 pm : link
In comment 15413964 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The throw at 4:40 under pressure where he hits the receiver 40+ down the sideline is a special throw. The throw at 5:35 against VT on the run is terrific.

The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.

The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.

He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.

I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.


I like those, especially 5:35. Ability to throw on the run is impressive.

I actually like his intermediate throws. The one at 1.33 is 35 yards but it's across the field and the cameraman doesn't keep up with it.

Jones Vs. other QBs  
Archer : 10/14/2021 10:15 pm : link
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?

Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones

None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.

Jones looked better as a rookie then they do now .
None of these QBs has had a game that can remotely close to Jones game vs. Tampa.

Drafting a QB is a crap shoot and if you had watched the college highlights of these QBs you would come away thinking that they were going to be all stars.

That brings me to the 2021 crop of QBs. There is no Lawrence in the group. There are QBs that have similar profiles and potential to last years group. But there is no sure thing.

So wishing to obtain a top 5 QB is a remote, possibility. Even finding a QB that is better than Jones is not likely.

I would rather use the Giants draft capitol to build the team. Find a stud edge, an interior LB, back up running back, a stud OT, and a stud OG.

As for Jones he may never be a Mahomes, or Brady, or Wilson, etc. but I think that Jones upside is a more athletic version of Eli

Look at Eli's first four years. The Giants won more games but there were Giant fans clamoring for his head.

In his first four years Eli never exceeded 24 TDs, his QB rating never exceeded 77, he had 20 ints in his fourth year.

What Eli became was a winner and that is my hope for Jones
RE: Jones Vs. other QBs  
bw in dc : 10/14/2021 11:09 pm : link
In comment 15413982 Archer said:
Quote:
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?

Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones



Interesting question.

From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.

I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.

So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.
RE: RE: Jones Vs. other QBs  
Producer : 10/14/2021 11:36 pm : link
In comment 15414032 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15413982 Archer said:


Quote:


Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?

Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones





Interesting question.

From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.

I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.

So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.


For me, definitely Lawrence and Lance. Probably, Fields and Wilson. No interest in Mac.
RE: Jones Vs. other QBs  
Gruber : 10/15/2021 8:55 am : link
In comment 15413982 Archer said:
Quote:
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?

Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones

None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.


You're judging Trevor Lawrence after five games played under the shitshow that is Urban Meyer? That's harsh.
I'd happily take Trevor Lawrence over Daniel Jones, but I'd also want to take a long, hard look at how we are going to develop him and what kind of offense we should really be playing.
RE: RE: Producer  
The Jake : 10/15/2021 9:16 am : link
In comment 15413849 Producer said:
Quote:
We need a top-8 QB to be a consistent Super Bowl contender. That to me is the general rule. If Jones becomes that, of course I am on board. I will be thrilled to be wrong. I think in year three the likelihood this will happen is exceedingly low. How many QBs go from subpar to elite after year 3. It's not many in the recent history of the game. Especially if they don't have unique traits. I know many point to Josh Allen but he also had staggering athletic and passing traits to go along with a lot of wins. I don't see the comparison, at all. This is why I feel it is an imperative to see the truth of the situation. Banking on Jones transforming into an elite QB is an extremely low probability. So while I do not favor cutting or trading Jones unless we get a great offer, I do think we need to explore every avenue to upgrade.

The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.


This is a great post, especially the part about the game within the game.

That we won two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who was a #1 pick but yet an above average (not elite) player, was a miracle, not a business model.
I disagree that you need a top "8"  
GNewGiants : 10/15/2021 9:20 am : link
Look at some of the QBs who made the SB, albeit not winning them over the last handful of years:

- Cam Newton
- Matt Ryan
- Jared Goff
- Jimmy Garrapolo
- Nick Foles
- Peyton Manning (2nd title win)

Now I understand people will tell me that cam and Ryan were MVPs.... but consistently they were not top 10 QBs in the league. They had amazing years yes - but neither of them are HOF bound (nor shouldnt be). Catching lightning in a bottle is risky. To be a contender, you need health, good interior line play, and a little luck.

Having a top tier QB just gives you more opportunities to get there.
18th sounds about right at this point  
Blue92 : 10/15/2021 9:24 am : link
And I think there's a good chance he can move up to the 12-15 range. That would be good enough to keep him, IMO, under 2 conditions:
1. The money is right.
2. He gets better at protecting himself.
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