and his numbers are almost right there with Mayfields. In fact a little better in some respects. The troubling stat for me is TDs and it was same last year. The Giants are miserable in the Redzone and regardless of how the D has been playing, IMO, we could have won more games if only our Redzone ops turned into TDs and not FGs or nothing!
Even the guys that like Jones point to Tannehill or Cousins as his ceiling. Even if that's accurate, that simply isn't good enough. If that's the ceiling of the range of expected outcomes, you have to look elsewhere.
Just go look at the different QBR stats. Jones is better than 18 in the league he’s ahead of Mr Prescott in every category
It's fine to defend Daniel Jones, but at least deal with facts. Dak's completion % is almost 10 points higher, he's thrown 9 more TD passes, and has more yardage and YPA (albeit very slightly). There are some QB's higher on the list that I would put Jones above, but there are also some lower that I would have above him.
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
Go look through those stats and understand that QBR is a clear indication of how a qb is playing
I understand QBR, but it's still based on a person/analyst passing judgment on the QB's performance.
I think AY/A is pretty damn solid because it's basically YPA extended by adjusting for TDs and INTs.
It isn’t exactly an opinion of a performance. It’s more calculated by weighing things evenly and the meaning of the play. EPA is a good statistic. If you look at those stats he’s slightly ahead of Prescott in each one. He’s been playing lights out on a bad football team. It’s not his fault our OC shits the bed in the redzone
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
So let me understand something...
Gettleman assembled the roster and the roster sucks because Gettleman is incompetent. I'm with you there. This is a bottom five roster assembled by a moron. Where you lose me is...
This same moron, using his same moron methods, drafted a good quarterback in Jones?
Why is Jones separated from the rest of the terrible roster?
can get a few first round picks right. It's actually looking like his last 3 (if you include Jones) first round picks are fairing pretty well. Now everything after that is dog doo
QBR is > Passer Rating, which is a very flawed stat.
But note this from ESPN...
Quote:
The details of every play (air yards, drops, pressures, etc.) are charted by a team of trained analysts in the ESPN Stats & Information Group. Every play of every game is tracked by at least two different analysts to provide the most accurate representation of how each play occurred.
So subjectivity is in play, although there is an attempt to smooth it out with two analysts.
that Daniel Jones can't overcome his supporting cast? His sack pct is top-10 and he has all these weapons now. Enough excuses. He has to play consistently like a top-12 QB (or better) or he's a bust. So far in 2021, he looks like a bust.
QBR is > Passer Rating, which is a very flawed stat.
But note this from ESPN...
Quote:
The details of every play (air yards, drops, pressures, etc.) are charted by a team of trained analysts in the ESPN Stats & Information Group. Every play of every game is tracked by at least two different analysts to provide the most accurate representation of how each play occurred.
So subjectivity is in play, although there is an attempt to smooth it out with two analysts.
that Daniel Jones can't overcome his supporting cast? His sack pct is top-10 and he has all these weapons now. Enough excuses. He has to play consistently like a top-12 QB (or better) or he's a bust. So far in 2021, he looks like a bust.
Can we PLEASE stop creating Daniel Jones threads. This guy has alerts set for when his name is uttered.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
There was plenty of excellent quarterbacking in display this past weekend. We know what it looks like. The next glimpse of excellence I see from Jones will be the first.
Excellence. Give me a break. The standards here are pathetic.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
You are free to feel your posts are worth a wet bat shit.
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
So let me understand something...
Gettleman assembled the roster and the roster sucks because Gettleman is incompetent. I'm with you there. This is a bottom five roster assembled by a moron. Where you lose me is...
This same moron, using his same moron methods, drafted a good quarterback in Jones?
Why is Jones separated from the rest of the terrible roster?
another fucking jackass comment by terps.
Just because you think dave has drafted like shit doesnt mean jones is shit.
One thing has nothing to do with another.
1. even if you believe dave has been shit in draft(i dont), then even a blind squirrel can find a nut
2. you think dave was average or good (i do), just can be part of that good.
Just because he has drafted some busts, doesnt mean jones is one. Reese fucking sucked dick for a decade in the draft. he dafted OBJ who if he hadnt gotten hurt was probably on his way to a fantastic career.
Again, just because he drafted poorly at times, doesnt mean all his picks are bad players.
Jones seems to be a solid player. Rosters 100% matter. saying they dont is a fucking joke. brady is a perfect example. he looked close to done in NE, goes to tampa and dominates...why? take a look at that offense. take a look at that OL, brady doesnt get sniffed. Take a look at that defense last year that constantly got off the field and gave brady chances.
Go terps. You have an agenda to shit on jones. Its fine I’m not offended. We see talent very differently and that’s fine. Asking someone what they thought of eli isn’t a crazy questions. Many wanted him replaced along with Tommy C. We know how that turned out. Let’s give Daniel some actual help and we’ll see the product. I hope this or the next regime doesn’t neglect the line again. If we build him a nice wall he can spin it with the best of them.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
RE: RE: RE: Just because he missed on a bunch of guys
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
You are free to feel your posts are worth a wet bat shit.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
that Daniel Jones can't overcome his supporting cast? His sack pct is top-10 and he has all these weapons now. Enough excuses. He has to play consistently like a top-12 QB (or better) or he's a bust. So far in 2021, he looks like a bust.
Do you even watch the games? Do you even understand football? He's a bust? It is a moronic excuse that he can't overcome his supporting cast? By any metric and the all important eye test he has played well this year despite all that's gone on around him and all the guys he's lost, the receivers', 3/5s of the OL plus some of the backups, We can add in most of his skill players being out all of camp. All of this and he's still played well and showed real progress. See it's not an excuse cause he's played well. I know lets leave out the Offensive player of the week award and lets take it as gospel that the head of the three anti Jones Amigos says he's bad and that Mitch Fuckin Trubisky is better. Seriously what kind of lives do you guys lead that you spend all your time trolling a Giants website launching relentless attacks on the teams QB and giggling in public about your Justin Hebert circle jerks.
The don’t take into account the team’s rushing stats. They don’t account for YAC. Average 2nd/3rd down and distance. Other important factors that impact QB play.
I think Jones has improved. Let’s see how it goes when AT is back and all the weapons are healthy. I think he will be in the 9-13 range.
What’s more important are drives that finish the game like New Orleans. Consistent play in big spots wins big games/championships. Let’s see more of that.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does bettwr with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I look forward to your honesty.
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
when BleedBlue is on one side of an argument you can be sure the other side is likely to be correct.
His posts read like he breathes through gills.
haha no....you just have an agenda to shit on Jones.
As i have always said, i PRAY to god we take who YOU want next april so we dont have to hear you running your cock smoker.
Youre as fucking annoying as they come. You legit sit here and say that supporting cast means nothing and provide ZERO factual evidence for this. Ive given an example where your team matters. as some have mentioned this isnt golf. Football more than any sport, you rely on the man next to you. The OL is shaky at best outside of thomas. the WRs have been good but if you dont have time you cant throw. also, im not even sure why we are having this convo. jones has performed pretty well this year and is the least of our problems. our defense cant stop a nosebleed at this point
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
Right, it is Archer's opinion. So I genuinely want to see what he replies.
All of those examples I list our QBs, I believe, who are better mentally and physically than Jones, so I struggle to see anyone making a case that Jones could switch with any of them and those teams don't miss a beat.
BTW, at its core, BBI is a debate site. So I don't confuse debate with trolling. If you want a monolithic site, BBI will become rather boring and with a lot less posters. Well, quality posters...
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
Agree. This is not an argument it’s a fact. DJ has been playing with a much weaker supporting cast for the past 2 years. If you can’t see that then you shouldn’t bother posting any comments about DJ.
I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I look forward to your honesty.
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
that Daniel Jones can't overcome his supporting cast? His sack pct is top-10 and he has all these weapons now. Enough excuses. He has to play consistently like a top-12 QB (or better) or he's a bust. So far in 2021, he looks like a bust.
He had all these weapons on the field for first time in the 4th game of this season. I get it some people don’t like the pick but we are not getting anyone next year because we have too many other needs and no good prospects for QB next year.
He had all these weapons on the field for first time in the 4th game of this season. I get it some people don’t like the pick but we are not getting anyone next year because we have too many other needs and no good prospects for QB next year.
Malik Willis is a very good QB prospect. Coral is interesting.
On here Jacoby Brisset is better and so is Marcus Mariota. Let's get those guys, this offense will immediately improve. Their passes will not bounce off Engram' hands, won't lose the ball after being blindsided by the DE from a missed block by Solder, and will make guys like Shepard and Slayton into potential top 20 guys.
that Daniel Jones can't overcome his supporting cast? His sack pct is top-10 and he has all these weapons now. Enough excuses. He has to play consistently like a top-12 QB (or better) or he's a bust. So far in 2021, he looks like a bust.
Listen we get you hate him as you have stated many times.
You have zero credibility on Daniel Jones and any comments on him.
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
Right, it is Archer's opinion. So I genuinely want to see what he replies.
All of those examples I list our QBs, I believe, who are better mentally and physically than Jones, so I struggle to see anyone making a case that Jones could switch with any of them and those teams don't miss a beat.
BTW, at its core, BBI is a debate site. So I don't confuse debate with trolling. If you want a monolithic site, BBI will become rather boring and with a lot less posters. Well, quality posters...
Thanks for the lesson on the site. How are we going to debate this, by plugging in what data too make our points? Lobbing something out there so those in your camp can rush in to ridicule isn't exactly debate, nor is saying something like it's gospel. BTW I agree that a one opinion site would be boring and lose posters just like a site where the true debate is sullied by a group that wants to do nothing but push one point as nauseum will and thats already happened in droves and they were equality posters.
Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
I'm saying NOW. Who gives a shit? That run was too good to worry about late November stats when literally months later he went on to have one of the best post seasons an NFL QB could have.
You're the comparing the NFL in this era to one 15 years ago.
Eli had some pretty solid numbers for back then in 2005, 2006.
Jones threw for 11 touchdowns in one season ... in 2020 NFL. Lol. What is that? A week or two's work for Dak? Allen?
Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. Plus he is a young quarterback who has started 31 games with two different offenses during covid. What I don't get about this place is how so many people forget about that. While I'm at it the rest of the statements mean a hell of a lot to a quarterback's success, except for the least one and once again the guy has started 31 games, etc.
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. Plus he is a young quarterback who has started 31 games with two different offenses during covid. What I don't get about this place is how so many people forget about that. While I'm at it the rest of the statements mean a hell of a lot to a quarterback's success, except for the least one and once again the guy has started 31 games, etc.
Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
Dak's been in the league a lot longer, playing behind a hell of a lot better line and the intermediate and short throw accuracy is conjecture, trumped up because you can't argue about his deep ball accuracy
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. .
No you're not. I didn't ask you what you like about Jones. I am asking how you *know* he's better than Dak Prescott. Or even a Carson Wentz or Darnold for that matter.
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. .
No you're not. I didn't ask you what you like about Jones. I am asking how you *know* he's better than Dak Prescott. Or even a Carson Wentz or Darnold for that matter.
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
I'm answering this and that's all bro. That is all, I don't give a crap about the rest of that stuff.
Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
Put it this way: would Dak be as good as he is behind our offensive line?
Also, if you don't think offensive lines don't impact a quarterback's performance, watch the most recent Super Bowl with the Buccanneers against the Chiefs. Patrick Mahomes is one of the top quarterbacks in the league right now; put him behind a makeshift offensive line where both tackles were out and he had a bad day.
Everyone on this board would love it if Jones becomes the player you think he already is. But your opinion that Dak and Jones are largely interchangeable when it comes to talent is not shared by anyone outside of the Giants fan base.
Everyone on this board would love it if Jones becomes the player you think he already is. But your opinion that Dak and Jones are largely interchangeable when it comes to talent is not shared by anyone outside of the Giants fan base.
That's not my opinion, Dak is a far more developed QB playing in a far better situation so I probably shouldn't have responded at all.
Everyone on this board would love it if Jones becomes the player you think he already is. But your opinion that Dak and Jones are largely interchangeable when it comes to talent is not shared by anyone outside of the Giants fan base.
That's not my opinion, Dak is a far more developed QB playing in a far better situation so I probably shouldn't have responded at all.
What I meant to say is he should make quicker and better decisions right now.
You seem to really be struggling with reading comprehension tonight.
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giant
You seem to really be struggling with reading comprehension tonight.
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giants than Jones has had. Jones would have worse results than Dak has had with Dallas.
Dak is a more talented individual player than Jones. That is an almost unanimous decision held by people who are not Giants fans.
You seem to really be struggling with reading comprehension tonight.
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giant
Right. I see what you’re saying about Dak and I’m not sure if Dak would do as well behind the Giants’ offensive line.
But you don’t need to insult me on the way there.
If Jones is so great why are we running a remedial offense for him?
Knocking him all afternoon/night because he’s ranked #18 out of 32, you have a QB problem.
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
RE: When you have threads about your QB and people are defending and
Knocking him all afternoon/night because he’s ranked #18 out of 32, you have a QB problem.
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
Hitching his wagon to Jones…
RE: If Jones is so great why are we running a remedial offense for him?
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
RE: When you have threads about your QB and people are defending and
Knocking him all afternoon/night because he’s ranked #18 out of 32, you have a QB problem.
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
IS this a joke?
Raiders fans?
C'mon some of you are really out to lunch when it comes to Jones.
Raiders fans love their QB?
Are you out of your mind????
RE: RE: If Jones is so great why are we running a remedial offense for him?
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
And you're using Carson Wentz who was dumped by Philly who also has/had a great line as an example, that's even better!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
And you're using Carson Wentz who was dumped by Philly who also has/had a great line as an example, that's even better!
I don't want to hear about line bullshit and I don't want to hear about Jones playing good bullshit.
Playing good means winning games. It means beating teams you are supposed to beat. It means when your team is 0-2 and you are playing Atlanta at home ; and you have golladay one on one like half the game ; you light them up and get the win. It means when your d comes up with 2 turnovers ; you march your team down the field; throw into a tight window for touchdown and at least take it to Dallas. you do not go 2-8 or whatever and a 3 and out and then try to make up for it by running through 2 200 lbs defenders.
Darnold could do that. Darnold could march his team up and down the field against a shitty TExans team and go up 2 scores in the 4qtr. Yeah it is the Texans but yeah he beats the pants off them like he should. All starters in the NFL who are not rookies could ...
I
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
Your post is complete horsehit.
Let me dumb it down for you. I did NOT say Jones was better but I said Dak had a better team. So I don't need to stop anything. What I said was a fact. Get the bug out of your ass.
And -- Jones is NOT an elite QB. Young QB's that are NOT elite, and without an elite OL, and without a super player to carry them, or a super defense to carry them, won't win shit. So stop with the nonsense that he hasn't won. Use your brain. What are you goign to do? Find one guy out of 90 to prove me wrong?
Look at Tannehil. He was nothing until he went to Tenn. At Tenn he had the great RB. All of sudden two years his rating spikes dramatically.
Stop with your nonsense that we can't compare other players from other teams. We compare things all the time but you and your other complainers want to whine when we do it for Jones?
Yes- anyone that thinks Jones is near equal to Dak right now is out of their mind. But that doesn't mean Dak doesn't have a better offensive team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
I
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
Your post is complete horsehit.
Let me dumb it down for you. I did NOT say Jones was better but I said Dak had a better team. So I don't need to stop anything. What I said was a fact. Get the bug out of your ass.
And -- Jones is NOT an elite QB. Young QB's that are NOT elite, and without an elite OL, and without a super player to carry them, or a super defense to carry them, won't win shit. So stop with the nonsense that he hasn't won. Use your brain. What are you goign to do? Find one guy out of 90 to prove me wrong?
Look at Tannehil. He was nothing until he went to Tenn. At Tenn he had the great RB. All of sudden two years his rating spikes dramatically.
Stop with your nonsense that we can't compare other players from other teams. We compare things all the time but you and your other complainers want to whine when we do it for Jones?
Yes- anyone that thinks Jones is near equal to Dak right now is out of their mind. But that doesn't mean Dak doesn't have a better offensive team.
Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does bettwr with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
Lol you're one of the worst posters on this board who clearly doesn't know a lick about the game of football. Go away.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
What about Jimmy G?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
What about Jimmy G?
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
But the talk around here is that Jones can't contend, right? But actually it is my best argument, right?
Those posters that said you need a good QB to get to contend are full of shit, right/> You just confirmed he sucks this year but in 2019 he didn't right but he got tot he SUper Bowl, right?
So what do you think should be used for rating? On PFR they have "Rating" and "QBR." In your opinion, are any of them any good?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: For the Jones detractors
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
But the talk around here is that Jones can't contend, right? But actually it is my best argument, right?
Those posters that said you need a good QB to get to contend are full of shit, right/> You just confirmed he sucks this year but in 2019 he didn't right but he got tot he SUper Bowl, right?
So what do you think should be used for rating? On PFR they have "Rating" and "QBR." In your opinion, are any of them any good?
I'm not taking up the mantle of anyone else's arguments. Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco won Super Bowls. Mark Sanchez went to two AFC title games in a row. Yes, mediocre-bad quarterbacks can occasionally win when everything else around them is great. I'd rather bank on getting a good quarterback than surrounding a "meh" quarterback with absolute world-beating talent.
I'm not sold on Jones either as being good or bad, fwiw. I'm eager to see how he looks the rest of the season. We're probably going to get to see him play next year as well, so that will give us 4 years of data.
Because Glennon is garbage lol I didn't think this needed to be explained.
18th ranked QB makes sense for Jones, I guess. Don't really care or get into rankings as others tend to do. Glennon wouldn't land in the top 32, hence why he isn't a starter. He blows.
Would the Giants have won the game against Seattle if Jones had played last year? Who knows?
Gun to head: I'd rather see Jones play over Glennon but for Jones' health, I'd rather he sit out. It doesn't make much of a difference who plays or Jones misses games. This is why I keep bringing up his record as a starter. They're not beating the Rams. If they did, I would be stunned beyond the Electric System in the winter.
Jones is a better QB than Glennon and McCoy but then again, Jones is better at playing QB than I am.
That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does better with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
Lol you're one of the worst posters on this board who clearly doesn't know a lick about the game of football. Go away.
I've watched football for 50 years and have eyes on at least a little of every game every week. I clearly listed deficits in Jones' game. And all you got is I don't know football? If you think Jones has played like a top QB, I don't believe you know a lick about the game.
If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
In all fairness I don’t think that’s all on jones. I think this team and defense especially are not good enough to even overcome one turnover and win a game so perhaps Garrett/ judge decided to go ultra conservative. But at the same time it might be their assessment of jones is that he’ll look a lot like Glennon if they turn him loose
It’s just kinda weird that in year three he’s a mystery; I would think in the nfl that is a bad sign not a good one. And now I guess I I understand the Garrett hate around here. But I’m still completely amazed how people see a mystery at best in jones automatically assume the best ; pump him up to be a top 3 QB ; and just assume a former vet QB above .500 coach has no clue about football. You gotta love this place lol.
If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
In all fairness I don’t think that’s all on jones. I think this team and defense especially are not good enough to even overcome one turnover and win a game so perhaps Garrett/ judge decided to go ultra conservative. But at the same time it might be their assessment of jones is that he’ll look a lot like Glennon if they turn him loose
It’s just kinda weird that in year three he’s a mystery; I would think in the nfl that is a bad sign not a good one. And now I guess I I understand the Garrett hate around here. But I’m still completely amazed how people see a mystery at best in jones automatically assume the best ; pump him up to be a top 3 QB ; and just assume a former vet QB above .500 coach has no clue about football. You gotta love this place lol.
No, it is primarily on Jones. They reduced the offense last season, putting him on a leash, to avoid his mistakes, and they have not yet opened the offense fully.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?
Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?
Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?
Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?
Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.
A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
I agree with a lot of this. Though I think the Browns are a legit contender. You are right that Mayfield is good, not great. If they had an elite QB they would be the favorites rather than 4th favorite, or so. They are a good example for this Jones conversation. If Jones becomes a decent QB we need to have as much or more than what the Browns have to become SB contenders. They have an elite OL, elite RBs and a great D. Getting all these systems to that level is difficult, and it is impossible to sustain for long periods. Building a champion without a great QB is a difficult task.
they need to take the low hanging fruit when available and improve some part of this team. If that means getting the legendary QB and punting Jones to the moon, so be it. Jones is the guy for now. If there doesn't appear to be anyone out there that is clearly an upgrade, he can be the guy until, but the Giants don't owe Jones a fucking thing.
I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.
If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.
they need to take the low hanging fruit when available and improve some part of this team. If that means getting the legendary QB and punting Jones to the moon, so be it. Jones is the guy for now. If there doesn't appear to be anyone out there that is clearly an upgrade, he can be the guy until, but the Giants don't owe Jones a fucking thing.
I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.
If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.
A highly paid vet isn't going to be an option. The Giants assured themselves of that when they threw money at Williams, Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, etc.
If they're going to make a change at QB it should look like this:
1. Trade Jones this offseason
2. Identify a couple QB prospects in this draft and hope you can get them at the appropriate range - don't reach or force anything.
If you can't execute #2 for whatever reason, find a cheap free agent. 2022 is going to be a mess anyway.
If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond
Last year he had a shit OL and he was still kicking ass till he got injured... go ahead and check his stats or performance..
I don't think Daniel Jones is bad.. but lets not say that Mahomes would suck as bad and pretend like we would still not win 7 games last year if we had Mahomes..
DJ can be good and I don't see him being bad yet..
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.
A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.
It's funny because I've seen people ding CFB QBs at top schools because they have the best line and skill players in the country, and that won't be the case in the NFL. Yet the narrative around DJ is that he can't be evaluated without a similar offense to those top colleges.
If he needs everything just perfect then he's not a franchise QB. Doesn't mean he can't win, but he's not a 2nd contract guy
I watched highlights of the Chargers/Browns and Packers/Bengals.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
Nice post. However you want to characterize it - "wow" factor - you just watch these other QBs similar in experience and age to Jones and the difference in skill level can be pretty profound. We are watching QBs like Herbert, Allen and LJax who just have otherworldly skills. The ability at such a young age to put their teams on their shoulders and make plays. It's turning into a great era of young QBs...
There are many examples of QBs who were thought to be busts and then they moved to a new team and played well.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.
What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.
Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.
He is the top-rated long passer in football.
Quote:
Daniel Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL at throwing the deep ball, per data released recently by Next Gen Stats.
He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,
Quote:
Per NFL's NextGen stats, Jones reached a top-speed of 21.23 miles per hour on his 80-yard, which is faster than any quarterback — including Ravens star Lamar Jackson — has reached since 2018. It was the 15th-fastest play of the 2020 season, per NextGen.
He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)
He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.
He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.
I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.
Quote:
According to PFF: he “also led the position in positively graded throws and recorded the week’s lowest negatively graded throw rate.”
This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.
Quote:
"A key part of determining expected completion percentage is the separation of a receiver from the nearest defender at the time a pass arrives.
Nextgen
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.
Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.
You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.
Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.
There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.
Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated
Quote:
“Overall, Jones lacks elite arm strength, but he has a nice blend of size, toughness and football smarts,’’ noted Daniel Jeremiah, draft analyst for NFL Network.
This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)
Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)
This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.
Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.
Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.
It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated
Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.
There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.
Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.
Tannehill is the only one of those you listed that is an above-average QB.
Quote:
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.
This is incorrect - his touchdown production is poor. I want Jones producing touchdowns and leading a good offense. He hasn't done that.
There are many examples of QBs who were thought to be busts and then they moved to a new team and played well.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.
What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.
Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.
He is the top-rated long passer in football.
Quote:
Daniel Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL at throwing the deep ball, per data released recently by Next Gen Stats.
He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,
Quote:
Per NFL's NextGen stats, Jones reached a top-speed of 21.23 miles per hour on his 80-yard, which is faster than any quarterback — including Ravens star Lamar Jackson — has reached since 2018. It was the 15th-fastest play of the 2020 season, per NextGen.
He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)
He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.
He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.
I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.
Quote:
According to PFF: he “also led the position in positively graded throws and recorded the week’s lowest negatively graded throw rate.”
This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.
Quote:
"A key part of determining expected completion percentage is the separation of a receiver from the nearest defender at the time a pass arrives.
Nextgen
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.
Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.
You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.
Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.
There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.
Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated
Quote:
“Overall, Jones lacks elite arm strength, but he has a nice blend of size, toughness and football smarts,’’ noted Daniel Jeremiah, draft analyst for NFL Network.
This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)
Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)
This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.
Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.
Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.
It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated
Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.
There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.
Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.
These are the same tired arguments which have been debunked in 100 posts. The most egregious is that somehow Jones is a top-3 deep ball passer, based on an exotic next gen stat rooted in a small sample size (39 throws), which he is clearly not if you just watch football teams other than the Giants. But even if we accept that this data is correct, you then must deal with numbers from the same data set, and based on much higher (better) sample sizes, which say that Jones is about the very worst QB in small to intermediate throw accuracy. His inaccuracy in these ranges is pretty damning. If you can't throw short to medium you can't really hold a job as an NFL QB.
But just based on eye test there are 12 to 15 QBs that throw deep with more zip and effectiveness than Jones. And if you are going to argue that Jones somehow has a better deep ball than Herbert or Wilson, I'll have to ask you, where are the TDs? You will be alone on an island with these arguments.
If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond
So you don't remember in the middle of last season Judge/Garrett changed the focus of the offense to reduce turnovers and have Jones focus on getting the ball out? And this season we have posters on this board complaining that the offense is rudimentary and conservative. It's roughly the same offense as the middle of last season, conservative to reduce mistakes and turnovers. You don't know this? You don't remember last season?
So why did we have to dumb down the offense to reduce mistakes in the middle of this QBs second year, and still have this offensive scheme in place into his third year? Whereas other QBs are taking off in their third year (or second year) and play without training wheels.
You cannot debunk facts
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias
These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance
It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.
I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind
I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?
I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.
I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.
I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.
I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.
If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future
And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.
You cannot debunk facts
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias
These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance
It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.
I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind
I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?
I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.
I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.
I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.
I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.
If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future
And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.
When he was drafted I was cautiously optimistic because Gettleman said he had a conviction about the player. That's what you want. You want your management to have a thoughtful conviction about the QB. I was only cautiously optimistic because Daniel Jones came out of college with no elite traits. None. I can guide you to the Cosell summary of Jones if you have any questions about that.
I soured on Jones last season when the turnovers and mental miscues, and lack of pocket awareness, and general inaccuracy became apparent. I see a stiff, robotic QB, who doesn't have enough instincts to overcome a merely adequate throwing ability. I think this is painfully obvious and I'm not sure why you don't see it. People are joking on here that if he's not Tom Brady or Mahomes, I won't be happy. Ummm.. yea... that's actually correct. We had a chance to get Mahomes last season, in Herbert, because we were fiddling with this kid. We passed on a franchise-altering talent *to see* if Jones can be good. As a management principle I would suggest to all NFL teams, if you don't know that your QB is good, you should assume he is no good, and keep looking. It's pretty simple.
I believe that your concerns about Jones were justified
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career
But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.
He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.
He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.
Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.
I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.
I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?
Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.
The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.
I'm looking at three drafts in succession from 2013 thru 2015 and what lean years they were for quarterbacks.
2012 gave the NFL Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannehill, Nick Foles and RG3. Okay, a mixed bag, but two players of considerable quality, a few other starters.
2013, almost entirely backups or didn't prove themselves as starters, the highest profile name of the 11 drafted being Geno Smith.
2014, Derek Carr, Garropolo and Bridgewater.
2015, Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston go one and two. No other name of note.
2016, Goff, Wentz, Prescott.
2017, Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson.
So, three really lean years, the point being that there is currrently little buzz about next year's QB class and it may be that with a high pick and extra picks, there just may not be any fruit on the tree.
Ergo, even if he doesn't do a whole lot this season, we may have to re-sign Daniel Jones and keep praying.
I believe that your concerns about Jones were justified
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career
But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.
He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.
He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.
Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.
I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.
I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?
Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.
The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.
The problem though with reducing turnovers is that it came at a cost. The offense is now not productive. It doesn't produce touchdowns. He has to limit the turnovers while throwing TD passes. What we have is still unacceptable, it's just a different kind of unacceptable. Here are some 2021
passing only TD/INT:
Prescott 13/3
Stafford 12/3
Kyler 10/4
Cousins 10/2
Allen 12/2
Herbert 13/3
Brady 15/2
Rodgers 10/3
Ryan 10/3
Mahomes 16/6
Lamar 8/4
You have to score TDs in abundance in the 2021 NFL. That's all there is to it. You have to come out slinging. Interceptions aren't such a big deal if you are throwing enough TDs, certainly if it is at a 3:1, or 4:1 ratio.
Have you seen Willis play this year or last year?
He is raw, undisciplined, and folds under pressure.
He has exquisite skills that make up for his poor play
He can run and he has a strong arm .
He is not an accurate passer.
He plays against a low level of competition which makes it hard to project him as a pro.
I am not impressed
I believe that there will be at least two QBs drafted before him.
Yes, in fact I am going to watch him live in late October against Louisiana.
Willis was at Auburn before he transferred. So he is a high level athlete. He's completing 68% of his passes this year. So let's establish a baseline of facts before you spew inaccuracies.
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
We are getting the rest of this year. If he doesn't start putting the ball into the end zone with frequency when we get inside the twenty you are going to have to accept he just isn't good enough.
If we start scoring points and winning games, you were wrong about Jones sucking.
Me
I don't have a clue anymore, I thought he was going to be the shit, then he was just shit, and now I don't know shit when I see it.
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing at "if he entered the porthole"
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.
He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.
So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.
He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.
So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.
I know nothing of the kid but from your description he sounds like Trey Lance, but with less size.
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB?
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB?
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
I'm willing to let this year play out with Jones. If he doesn't look like the long term solution, yes, I would support making a high investment in Willis.
I don't know how long Willis would take to develop. But he is worth the stretch...
So lets see if Jones can make more plays and score more TDs
It would seem if he can do that then you would be on board?
Jones has lost two tds this year, his run that negated by holding and the the dropped pass by Slayton
Lets see what happens going forward
We need a top-8 QB to be a consistent Super Bowl contender. That to me is the general rule. If Jones becomes that, of course I am on board. I will be thrilled to be wrong. I think in year three the likelihood this will happen is exceedingly low. How many QBs go from subpar to elite after year 3. It's not many in the recent history of the game. Especially if they don't have unique traits. I know many point to Josh Allen but he also had staggering athletic and passing traits to go along with a lot of wins. I don't see the comparison, at all. This is why I feel it is an imperative to see the truth of the situation. Banking on Jones transforming into an elite QB is an extremely low probability. So while I do not favor cutting or trading Jones unless we get a great offer, I do think we need to explore every avenue to upgrade.
The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.
Here are some highlights from 2020. Some interesting ability... Willis - ( New Window )
I like him. He looks to have solid arm talent and he has the burst of a wide out. He does get run down by a defender in the long run but he is an explosive and decisive runner. I wish he was bigger. He reminds me of Kyler a bit. Less explosive but maybe a better arm.
If you draft him you have to build an offense designed for him a la Lamar and Kyler.
The throw at 4:40 under pressure where he hits the receiver 40+ down the sideline is a special throw. The throw at 5:35 against VT on the run is terrific.
The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.
The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.
He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.
I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.
Are you willing to draft Willis in the hopes that he will be a great QB? how's that different than the last 2.25 seasons? But yes
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over until they get it right
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out? yes. A full reboot with a clear vision would do a lot for my confidence. Including being OK with 2-3 years of growing pains. Better than the perpetual "one year/ player away" folly we're in now
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
The throw at 4:40 under pressure where he hits the receiver 40+ down the sideline is a special throw. The throw at 5:35 against VT on the run is terrific.
The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.
The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.
He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.
I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.
I like those, especially 5:35. Ability to throw on the run is impressive.
I actually like his intermediate throws. The one at 1.33 is 35 yards but it's across the field and the cameraman doesn't keep up with it.
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.
Jones looked better as a rookie then they do now .
None of these QBs has had a game that can remotely close to Jones game vs. Tampa.
Drafting a QB is a crap shoot and if you had watched the college highlights of these QBs you would come away thinking that they were going to be all stars.
That brings me to the 2021 crop of QBs. There is no Lawrence in the group. There are QBs that have similar profiles and potential to last years group. But there is no sure thing.
So wishing to obtain a top 5 QB is a remote, possibility. Even finding a QB that is better than Jones is not likely.
I would rather use the Giants draft capitol to build the team. Find a stud edge, an interior LB, back up running back, a stud OT, and a stud OG.
As for Jones he may never be a Mahomes, or Brady, or Wilson, etc. but I think that Jones upside is a more athletic version of Eli
Look at Eli's first four years. The Giants won more games but there were Giant fans clamoring for his head.
In his first four years Eli never exceeded 24 TDs, his QB rating never exceeded 77, he had 20 ints in his fourth year.
What Eli became was a winner and that is my hope for Jones
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
Interesting question.
From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.
I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.
So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
Interesting question.
From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.
I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.
So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.
For me, definitely Lawrence and Lance. Probably, Fields and Wilson. No interest in Mac.
Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.
You're judging Trevor Lawrence after five games played under the shitshow that is Urban Meyer? That's harsh.
I'd happily take Trevor Lawrence over Daniel Jones, but I'd also want to take a long, hard look at how we are going to develop him and what kind of offense we should really be playing.
We need a top-8 QB to be a consistent Super Bowl contender. That to me is the general rule. If Jones becomes that, of course I am on board. I will be thrilled to be wrong. I think in year three the likelihood this will happen is exceedingly low. How many QBs go from subpar to elite after year 3. It's not many in the recent history of the game. Especially if they don't have unique traits. I know many point to Josh Allen but he also had staggering athletic and passing traits to go along with a lot of wins. I don't see the comparison, at all. This is why I feel it is an imperative to see the truth of the situation. Banking on Jones transforming into an elite QB is an extremely low probability. So while I do not favor cutting or trading Jones unless we get a great offer, I do think we need to explore every avenue to upgrade.
The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.
This is a great post, especially the part about the game within the game.
That we won two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who was a #1 pick but yet an above average (not elite) player, was a miracle, not a business model.
Look at some of the QBs who made the SB, albeit not winning them over the last handful of years:
- Cam Newton
- Matt Ryan
- Jared Goff
- Jimmy Garrapolo
- Nick Foles
- Peyton Manning (2nd title win)
Now I understand people will tell me that cam and Ryan were MVPs.... but consistently they were not top 10 QBs in the league. They had amazing years yes - but neither of them are HOF bound (nor shouldnt be). Catching lightning in a bottle is risky. To be a contender, you need health, good interior line play, and a little luck.
Having a top tier QB just gives you more opportunities to get there.
And I think there's a good chance he can move up to the 12-15 range. That would be good enough to keep him, IMO, under 2 conditions:
1. The money is right.
2. He gets better at protecting himself.
Jones has some good metrics, but the offense just isn't getting it done with enough PPG. And I heap a lot of that on Jones.
Now everyone pick a side...
A) He is top-5, at least!!!
B) Maybe...maybe 18th best in the NFC
B) Maybe...maybe 18th best in the NFC
Sixteen teams in the NFC and Jones 18th at best. That stinks. ;)
Prescott is ahead in YPA, AY/A, completion % and total TDs.
He has to throw for more TDs.
So you're saying Daniel Jones is better than Dak Prescott.
Even the guys that like Jones point to Tannehill or Cousins as his ceiling. Even if that's accurate, that simply isn't good enough. If that's the ceiling of the range of expected outcomes, you have to look elsewhere.
It's fine to defend Daniel Jones, but at least deal with facts. Dak's completion % is almost 10 points higher, he's thrown 9 more TD passes, and has more yardage and YPA (albeit very slightly). There are some QB's higher on the list that I would put Jones above, but there are also some lower that I would have above him.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
Herbert at #2. Fucking hell.
I understand QBR, but it's still based on a person/analyst passing judgment on the QB's performance.
I think AY/A is pretty damn solid because it's basically YPA extended by adjusting for TDs and INTs.
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Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
Dak Prescott is 2nd
Daniel Jones is 19th
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Go look through those stats and understand that QBR is a clear indication of how a qb is playing
I understand QBR, but it's still based on a person/analyst passing judgment on the QB's performance.
I think AY/A is pretty damn solid because it's basically YPA extended by adjusting for TDs and INTs.
It isn’t exactly an opinion of a performance. It’s more calculated by weighing things evenly and the meaning of the play. EPA is a good statistic. If you look at those stats he’s slightly ahead of Prescott in each one. He’s been playing lights out on a bad football team. It’s not his fault our OC shits the bed in the redzone
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In comment 15412533 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
So let me understand something...
Gettleman assembled the roster and the roster sucks because Gettleman is incompetent. I'm with you there. This is a bottom five roster assembled by a moron. Where you lose me is...
This same moron, using his same moron methods, drafted a good quarterback in Jones?
Why is Jones separated from the rest of the terrible roster?
But note this from ESPN...
So subjectivity is in play, although there is an attempt to smooth it out with two analysts.
But note this from ESPN...
Quote:
The details of every play (air yards, drops, pressures, etc.) are charted by a team of trained analysts in the ESPN Stats & Information Group. Every play of every game is tracked by at least two different analysts to provide the most accurate representation of how each play occurred.
So subjectivity is in play, although there is an attempt to smooth it out with two analysts.
Why is QBR > Passer Rating?
Can we PLEASE stop creating Daniel Jones threads. This guy has alerts set for when his name is uttered.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
Needs to show much more for a second contract.
Why is QBR > Passer Rating?
It accounts for more variables. Passer Rating doesn't account for sacks, fumbles, rushing TDs, rushing yards, garbage time yardage, etc.
Excellence. Give me a break. The standards here are pathetic.
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It doesn’t mean he missed on all.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
You are free to feel your posts are worth a wet bat shit.
They are not.
Inane argument.
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In comment 15412543 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15412533 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
So you just ignore the lack of talent along the line and the constant pressures and the fact jones has masked solders horrific season by running for his life. Got it!
Hate to break the news to you. Jones was drafted 6th overall which means he was on a bad team right away and the team hasn’t really drafted well and never addressed the line, which you know, kinda keeps a quarterback Upright.
Dak was drafted to a team that went 12-4. That team was loaded. They drafted Elliot because they collapsed after romo went down. Before Romo got hurt they were 3-1. They had a high first round pick took Elliot. He was drafted to a ready made offense. They added a great back. I’m sorry but context matters and the quality of the talent around you matters. This isn’t golf. It’s football. You need help in this sport. Was Brady done with the pats because he sucked? No. The roster wasn’t good. All of a sudden he goes to tampa and he’s brad again. It’s called having talent around you. Rosters matter
So let me understand something...
Gettleman assembled the roster and the roster sucks because Gettleman is incompetent. I'm with you there. This is a bottom five roster assembled by a moron. Where you lose me is...
This same moron, using his same moron methods, drafted a good quarterback in Jones?
Why is Jones separated from the rest of the terrible roster?
another fucking jackass comment by terps.
Just because you think dave has drafted like shit doesnt mean jones is shit.
One thing has nothing to do with another.
1. even if you believe dave has been shit in draft(i dont), then even a blind squirrel can find a nut
2. you think dave was average or good (i do), just can be part of that good.
Just because he has drafted some busts, doesnt mean jones is one. Reese fucking sucked dick for a decade in the draft. he dafted OBJ who if he hadnt gotten hurt was probably on his way to a fantastic career.
Again, just because he drafted poorly at times, doesnt mean all his picks are bad players.
Jones seems to be a solid player. Rosters 100% matter. saying they dont is a fucking joke. brady is a perfect example. he looked close to done in NE, goes to tampa and dominates...why? take a look at that offense. take a look at that OL, brady doesnt get sniffed. Take a look at that defense last year that constantly got off the field and gave brady chances.
His posts read like he breathes through gills.
Let's take Dak for example and put him on the Giants and Jones on the Cowboys
I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
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In comment 15412586 Tuckrule said:
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It doesn’t mean he missed on all.
Jones to me is a good nfl qb. Will he be Rodgers, mahomes, Allen or Herbert. No he isn’t that but is he an above average nfl qb? 100 percent he is. I personally believe his ceiling is very high. It’s hard to see any consistency when we are shuffling offensive lineman weekly. Like I said, this was the first year he had real talent on the outside but the line has regressed.
Another example of a guy DG hit on is Andrew Thomas.
This is a flawed roster no doubt about it. The line has been neglected but if I’m the gm of the giants I keep Daniel Jones. We have seen glimpses of excellence but there is no consistency around him. The only constant is a poor offensive line. This week vs Dallas jones looked like a different QB with solder blocking his blindside.
You are free to think Jones is an above average NFL QB, but he is not.
You are free to feel your posts are worth a wet bat shit.
They are not.
Did I hurt your feelings by stating the obvious?
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Do you even watch the games? Do you even understand football? He's a bust? It is a moronic excuse that he can't overcome his supporting cast? By any metric and the all important eye test he has played well this year despite all that's gone on around him and all the guys he's lost, the receivers', 3/5s of the OL plus some of the backups, We can add in most of his skill players being out all of camp. All of this and he's still played well and showed real progress. See it's not an excuse cause he's played well. I know lets leave out the Offensive player of the week award and lets take it as gospel that the head of the three anti Jones Amigos says he's bad and that Mitch Fuckin Trubisky is better. Seriously what kind of lives do you guys lead that you spend all your time trolling a Giants website launching relentless attacks on the teams QB and giggling in public about your Justin Hebert circle jerks.
I think Jones has improved. Let’s see how it goes when AT is back and all the weapons are healthy. I think he will be in the 9-13 range.
What’s more important are drives that finish the game like New Orleans. Consistent play in big spots wins big games/championships. Let’s see more of that.
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That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
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In comment 15412623 Tuckrule said:
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That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does bettwr with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I look forward to your honesty.
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I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I look forward to your honesty.
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
His posts read like he breathes through gills.
haha no....you just have an agenda to shit on Jones.
As i have always said, i PRAY to god we take who YOU want next april so we dont have to hear you running your cock smoker.
Youre as fucking annoying as they come. You legit sit here and say that supporting cast means nothing and provide ZERO factual evidence for this. Ive given an example where your team matters. as some have mentioned this isnt golf. Football more than any sport, you rely on the man next to you. The OL is shaky at best outside of thomas. the WRs have been good but if you dont have time you cant throw. also, im not even sure why we are having this convo. jones has performed pretty well this year and is the least of our problems. our defense cant stop a nosebleed at this point
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
Right, it is Archer's opinion. So I genuinely want to see what he replies.
All of those examples I list our QBs, I believe, who are better mentally and physically than Jones, so I struggle to see anyone making a case that Jones could switch with any of them and those teams don't miss a beat.
BTW, at its core, BBI is a debate site. So I don't confuse debate with trolling. If you want a monolithic site, BBI will become rather boring and with a lot less posters. Well, quality posters...
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Not saying he’s better but your not comparing apples to apples the roster Dak has been with since he entered the league was a championship caliber offense. Great offensive line. Bruising running back and very good skill guys. He’s had 3 legit all pros on the offensive line. Since jones entered the league his offense has been atrocious from the line to the skill guys. This is the first year he has legit talent at the skill positions but again, the line just isn’t there. If you insert jones as Dallas QB he’d perform just as well if not better than dak.
God damn it these types of arguments are inane and more numerous by the day. Dak isn't on the Giants and Jones isn't on the Cowboys.
Fucking hell.
Agree. This is not an argument it’s a fact. DJ has been playing with a much weaker supporting cast for the past 2 years. If you can’t see that then you shouldn’t bother posting any comments about DJ.
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In comment 15412620 Archer said:
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I believe that Dak would be awful without the Dallas offensive line and a superior running game on the Giants while Jones would be a top 3 QB
Top 3 QB? Do you just write that with a straight face? Humor me - who would be the other two?
Which leads me to...
Could Jones perform with KC the way Mahomes does?
Could Jones perform with LAC the way Herbert does?
Could Jones perform with Balt the way LJax does?
Could Jones perform in Tampa the way TB12 does?
Could Jones perform in Green Bay the way Rodgers does?
Could Jones perform in Seattle the way Wilson does?
Could Jones perform in Buffalo the way Allen does?
Could Jones perform in Arizona the way Murray does?
I look forward to your honesty.
See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
He had all these weapons on the field for first time in the 4th game of this season. I get it some people don’t like the pick but we are not getting anyone next year because we have too many other needs and no good prospects for QB next year.
He had all these weapons on the field for first time in the 4th game of this season. I get it some people don’t like the pick but we are not getting anyone next year because we have too many other needs and no good prospects for QB next year.
Malik Willis is a very good QB prospect. Coral is interesting.
Some of the posts here are insane.
Listen we get you hate him as you have stated many times.
You have zero credibility on Daniel Jones and any comments on him.
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See BW Archer is saying he believes as that is his opinion and it's subjective. We'll never know because he's not on those teams at this moment. He's not just making statements like their gospel like Jones has a slow windup or panics under pressure. I believe you are asking this so your buddies on BBI can all roll in giggling about how ridiculous it is and you can all segue into how absolutely fantastic Justin Hebert is. What this accomplishes beyond it being another way to attack the starting QB of the team that most people on this site root for is anybody's guess unless you're just looking to troll the site once again.
Right, it is Archer's opinion. So I genuinely want to see what he replies.
All of those examples I list our QBs, I believe, who are better mentally and physically than Jones, so I struggle to see anyone making a case that Jones could switch with any of them and those teams don't miss a beat.
BTW, at its core, BBI is a debate site. So I don't confuse debate with trolling. If you want a monolithic site, BBI will become rather boring and with a lot less posters. Well, quality posters...
Thanks for the lesson on the site. How are we going to debate this, by plugging in what data too make our points? Lobbing something out there so those in your camp can rush in to ridicule isn't exactly debate, nor is saying something like it's gospel. BTW I agree that a one opinion site would be boring and lose posters just like a site where the true debate is sullied by a group that wants to do nothing but push one point as nauseum will and thats already happened in droves and they were equality posters.
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
And from the mountaintop comes this....
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Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
And I heap a lot of that on Jones.
Not even close to being true.
Not even close.
They can do better and cna even try to draft. Go for it if you find one better.
You're the comparing the NFL in this era to one 15 years ago.
Eli had some pretty solid numbers for back then in 2005, 2006.
Jones threw for 11 touchdowns in one season ... in 2020 NFL. Lol. What is that? A week or two's work for Dak? Allen?
IS this a joke??????????
He hasn't had his best receivers.
Please some of you can you pretend that you even watched a game?
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
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In comment 15412599 Tuckrule said:
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Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
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Do you even watch the games? Do you even understand football?
He doesn't. One or the other- that's him.
He once told me if he were GM every year he'd draft a QB until he got one that is elite.
He thinks football is a one player sport.
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In comment 15412781 Route 9 said:
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In comment 15412599 Tuckrule said:
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Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
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In comment 15412794 Tuckrule said:
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In comment 15412781 Route 9 said:
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In comment 15412599 Tuckrule said:
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Curious what you thought of eli after he was 3 plus years and had his 4 pick game vs Minny
In 2007, I thought the separated shoulder injury from early on in the year was bugging Eli and him projected to be out 4-6 weeks but still playing kind of gave me a reason to give him a pass.
Ya... His numbers weren't pretty for the 07 season but what New York Giants fan on this Earth gives an honest fuck about regular season stats with the Super Bowl 42 run under his belt?
Being a QB was a tad different in 2004 than it was in 2019. So I don't really like the comparison.
Lmao. It wasnt under his belt buddy. This was November of 2007 when he threw 4 picks. So The Who gives a fuck comment is kind of funny.
What answer are you looking for? I hear this question asked a lot on here by someone who is looking to pump up jones. What ? I felt the same about Eli . And Eli sucks because he had a 4 int game?
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
I forgot his running.
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
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In comment 15412756 Mike from Ohio said:
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
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Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. Plus he is a young quarterback who has started 31 games with two different offenses during covid. What I don't get about this place is how so many people forget about that. While I'm at it the rest of the statements mean a hell of a lot to a quarterback's success, except for the least one and once again the guy has started 31 games, etc.
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Accurate with the ability to make some great throws, quick release, tough, responds well to adversity, keeps getting better and shows the ability to work on his game and improve.
See this is type of thing I don't get about this place. This kind of explanation is one a QB potential and still like a rookie. But Jones is not a rookie ; although it seems like the coaching staff has his training wheels on. The only statement you mentioned of any substance is accurate part which coming off the last game; when it mattered most jones was very unaccurate. and ok he is on a team where he doesn't get to play meaningful football to compare that to Eli who was pretty much always playing meaningful games. And while he had bad games he was sometimes outplaying some of the best in the league in head on match -ups. It is bullshit comparison. Jones has yet to give a top ranked qb a run for their money let alone shine better than one; while Eli has by year 3.
So how are you comparing what basically amounts to an up and comer who is failing to compete--for whatever reason-- with people who are hitting their stride?
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. Plus he is a young quarterback who has started 31 games with two different offenses during covid. What I don't get about this place is how so many people forget about that. While I'm at it the rest of the statements mean a hell of a lot to a quarterback's success, except for the least one and once again the guy has started 31 games, etc.
The last but not least one...
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In comment 15412815 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 15412756 Mike from Ohio said:
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
He probably has had one of the best if not best 2nd’3rd down and distance for the bulk of his career. Certainly makes QB play a heck of a lot easier.
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In comment 15412842 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15412815 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 15412756 Mike from Ohio said:
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
Dak's been in the league a lot longer, playing behind a hell of a lot better line and the intermediate and short throw accuracy is conjecture, trumped up because you can't argue about his deep ball accuracy
I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. .
No you're not. I didn't ask you what you like about Jones. I am asking how you *know* he's better than Dak Prescott. Or even a Carson Wentz or Darnold for that matter.
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I'm answering your question about what I like about him and that's it. .
No you're not. I didn't ask you what you like about Jones. I am asking how you *know* he's better than Dak Prescott. Or even a Carson Wentz or Darnold for that matter.
Also for Jones pumpers who say that it is unfair to evaluate jones because of this roster then ; by that same argument -- what do you see that's so great that you pump him up so?
I'm answering this and that's all bro. That is all, I don't give a crap about the rest of that stuff.
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In comment 15412842 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15412815 Angel Eyes said:
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In comment 15412756 Mike from Ohio said:
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
So how well would Dak do passing behind our offensive line?
Significantly better. He makes quicker and better decisions
You sure have a lot of faith in them. More than I have certainly.
Your posts don’t make any sense. Why do I have faith in the Giants line because I said Dak would do better than Jones behind them? The line is the same in this scenario.
Dak makes decision quicker and gets rid of the ball quicker than Jones. That helps when there is pressure. Dak is also more accurate on short and intermediate throws which are more common when there is pressure. Those factors would lead to him having more success than Jones behind this same line.
Put it this way: would Dak be as good as he is behind our offensive line?
Also, if you don't think offensive lines don't impact a quarterback's performance, watch the most recent Super Bowl with the Buccanneers against the Chiefs. Patrick Mahomes is one of the top quarterbacks in the league right now; put him behind a makeshift offensive line where both tackles were out and he had a bad day.
That's not my opinion, Dak is a far more developed QB playing in a far better situation so I probably shouldn't have responded at all.
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Everyone on this board would love it if Jones becomes the player you think he already is. But your opinion that Dak and Jones are largely interchangeable when it comes to talent is not shared by anyone outside of the Giants fan base.
That's not my opinion, Dak is a far more developed QB playing in a far better situation so I probably shouldn't have responded at all.
What I meant to say is he should make quicker and better decisions right now.
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giant
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giants than Jones has had. Jones would have worse results than Dak has had with Dallas.
Dak is a more talented individual player than Jones. That is an almost unanimous decision held by people who are not Giants fans.
You asked is Dak would be better than Jones behind the Giants line. I answered yes and explained why.
Did I say Dak would be just as good with the Giants as he is with the Cowboys? No. Dallas has built a better roster and drafted much better. I also never said Offensive line play doesn’t impact QB play. You keep changing the argument and attributing things to me that I never said.
I’ll make this simple. If Dak and Jones were traded straight up for each other tomorrow, Dak would have better results with the Giant
Right. I see what you’re saying about Dak and I’m not sure if Dak would do as well behind the Giants’ offensive line.
But you don’t need to insult me on the way there.
Why does Jones need training wheels?
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
Hitching his wagon to Jones…
Why does Jones need training wheels?
What in God's name are you talking about?
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Than Daniel Jones. It isn’t close. Stop with that silliness.
Some of the posts here are insane.
+1. This team's last several seasons have broken a lot of people's brains.0
Why does anyone on hear care? They are two different QBs at different stages of development playing in two entirely different situations.
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If they think Daniel Jones is as good as Dak.
Why does anyone on hear care? They are two different QBs at different stages of development playing in two entirely different situations.
Here
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If they think Daniel Jones is as good as Dak.
Why does anyone on hear care? They are two different QBs at different stages of development playing in two entirely different situations.
Because someone on here compared the two, saying or suggesting that DJ is just as good as Dak, and that is super homerism.
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It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
You think charger, cowboy, cardinal, packer, buc, seahawk, chief, ram, bill, and raider fans are having this discussion?
I for one cannot wait until Dave is gone and Judge is given a one year reprieve. THEN we’ll see how he really feels about Daniel Jones. Is he hitching just wagon to Daniel with his job on the line?
IS this a joke?
Raiders fans?
C'mon some of you are really out to lunch when it comes to Jones.
Raiders fans love their QB?
Are you out of your mind????
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Herbert by game 3 was the 3rd best QB in the league. He never needed training wheels.
Why does Jones need training wheels?
What in God's name are you talking about?
I know., That dude is so thick.
If you're not "Tom Brady" you suck.
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In comment 15412704 Walker Gillette said:
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It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
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In comment 15412726 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15412704 Walker Gillette said:
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It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
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In comment 15412933 giantstock said:
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In comment 15412726 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15412704 Walker Gillette said:
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It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
And you're using Carson Wentz who was dumped by Philly who also has/had a great line as an example, that's even better!
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In comment 15412944 Debaser said:
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In comment 15412933 giantstock said:
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In comment 15412726 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15412704 Walker Gillette said:
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It's because we wish we had a QB like Herbert on our team, instead we're being told to settle for someone who's middle of the pack -at best. Why shouldn't we want to do better and have a top flight QB? A lot of those who won't lay an iota of blame on Jones don't realize it's not rooting against DJ, it's that we don't expect him to be good enough to be a SB contender.
As far as QB evaluations go, Darnold was in a much worse situation and the Jets still decided to move on. Was that the right decision? Remains to be seen, but to act like a QB cannot be evaluated in a bad situation is untrue
[quote]
But the problem with some of the posters on this thread that keep zapping Jones; do you keep shitting on Jones because he isn't "Mahomes?"
Yes Giants can do better, but also Jones can elevate to be a good QB. To close the books on him and exaggerate like three of the posters are on this thread, is way too extreme.
In regard to specifically the Cowboys vs the Giants. Tell me of the 5 Offensive linemen playing their respective positions on that day, how many Giants would you have taken? What about the Tight End? What about the RB? Of Course Toney the number 1 receiver but can’t say Golladay, right? He was hurt during the game.
Jones is not as good as Dak, no argument. But there should be no argument that nearly every other position Dallas is better in that game, right? SO can’t we conclude that at some level Jones is not playing so far with near the level of quality that Dak has at his disposal?
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
I saw Carson Wentz under pressure in the 1st qtr in MNF pretty much the whole 1st Qtr, but there was Wentz throwing out to the flat ; taking the lead ; sling ing the ball well ; going to toe to toe with Lamar Jackson. And then there is Jackson, starting out slow and then coming on late in the game ; then being completely electric. These guys are big league QBs. Jones is not one. It is just that simple.
Both those teams have tremendous OLs and have for a few years now and Jones has been good this year with the improved pass blocking. He was pretty electric in the New Orleans game and won Offensive Player of the year but you know he is not a big league QB and are ready to state that as fact. Priceless!
And you're using Carson Wentz who was dumped by Philly who also has/had a great line as an example, that's even better!
I don't want to hear about line bullshit and I don't want to hear about Jones playing good bullshit.
Playing good means winning games. It means beating teams you are supposed to beat. It means when your team is 0-2 and you are playing Atlanta at home ; and you have golladay one on one like half the game ; you light them up and get the win. It means when your d comes up with 2 turnovers ; you march your team down the field; throw into a tight window for touchdown and at least take it to Dallas. you do not go 2-8 or whatever and a 3 and out and then try to make up for it by running through 2 200 lbs defenders.
Darnold could do that. Darnold could march his team up and down the field against a shitty TExans team and go up 2 scores in the 4qtr. Yeah it is the Texans but yeah he beats the pants off them like he should. All starters in the NFL who are not rookies could ...
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I
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
Your post is complete horsehit.
Let me dumb it down for you. I did NOT say Jones was better but I said Dak had a better team. So I don't need to stop anything. What I said was a fact. Get the bug out of your ass.
And -- Jones is NOT an elite QB. Young QB's that are NOT elite, and without an elite OL, and without a super player to carry them, or a super defense to carry them, won't win shit. So stop with the nonsense that he hasn't won. Use your brain. What are you goign to do? Find one guy out of 90 to prove me wrong?
Look at Tannehil. He was nothing until he went to Tenn. At Tenn he had the great RB. All of sudden two years his rating spikes dramatically.
Stop with your nonsense that we can't compare other players from other teams. We compare things all the time but you and your other complainers want to whine when we do it for Jones?
Yes- anyone that thinks Jones is near equal to Dak right now is out of their mind. But that doesn't mean Dak doesn't have a better offensive team.
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In comment 15412933 giantstock said:
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I
This place needs to stop with this line bullshit. While yes maybe Dak has that luxury--and to be honest I have no idea how he would fare without it. I do know this... QBs can perform under pressure. And further, this line, this year has not been that bad at all.
Your post is complete horsehit.
Let me dumb it down for you. I did NOT say Jones was better but I said Dak had a better team. So I don't need to stop anything. What I said was a fact. Get the bug out of your ass.
And -- Jones is NOT an elite QB. Young QB's that are NOT elite, and without an elite OL, and without a super player to carry them, or a super defense to carry them, won't win shit. So stop with the nonsense that he hasn't won. Use your brain. What are you goign to do? Find one guy out of 90 to prove me wrong?
Look at Tannehil. He was nothing until he went to Tenn. At Tenn he had the great RB. All of sudden two years his rating spikes dramatically.
Stop with your nonsense that we can't compare other players from other teams. We compare things all the time but you and your other complainers want to whine when we do it for Jones?
Yes- anyone that thinks Jones is near equal to Dak right now is out of their mind. But that doesn't mean Dak doesn't have a better offensive team.
Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
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In comment 15412629 Producer said:
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In comment 15412623 Tuckrule said:
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That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does bettwr with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
Lol you're one of the worst posters on this board who clearly doesn't know a lick about the game of football. Go away.
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Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
What about Jimmy G?
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In comment 15412961 giantstock said:
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Idk I think if anything Tannenhill is the exception. It's pretty rare, these days, for QBs to be sucky/somewhat mediocre for several years and then turn it on. What you have by year 3-4 is usually what you get. Not always, of course, but more often than not.
What about Jimmy G?
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
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What about Jimmy G?
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
But the talk around here is that Jones can't contend, right? But actually it is my best argument, right?
Those posters that said you need a good QB to get to contend are full of shit, right/> You just confirmed he sucks this year but in 2019 he didn't right but he got tot he SUper Bowl, right?
So what do you think should be used for rating? On PFR they have "Rating" and "QBR." In your opinion, are any of them any good?
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In comment 15412965 giantstock said:
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What about Jimmy G?
Jimmy G? Sat for several years, didn't look great when starting, and now that link even says that 28th-ranked Trey Lance should start over him. I don't think that's your best argument.
But the talk around here is that Jones can't contend, right? But actually it is my best argument, right?
Those posters that said you need a good QB to get to contend are full of shit, right/> You just confirmed he sucks this year but in 2019 he didn't right but he got tot he SUper Bowl, right?
So what do you think should be used for rating? On PFR they have "Rating" and "QBR." In your opinion, are any of them any good?
I'm not taking up the mantle of anyone else's arguments. Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco won Super Bowls. Mark Sanchez went to two AFC title games in a row. Yes, mediocre-bad quarterbacks can occasionally win when everything else around them is great. I'd rather bank on getting a good quarterback than surrounding a "meh" quarterback with absolute world-beating talent.
I'm not sold on Jones either as being good or bad, fwiw. I'm eager to see how he looks the rest of the season. We're probably going to get to see him play next year as well, so that will give us 4 years of data.
18th ranked QB makes sense for Jones, I guess. Don't really care or get into rankings as others tend to do. Glennon wouldn't land in the top 32, hence why he isn't a starter. He blows.
Would the Giants have won the game against Seattle if Jones had played last year? Who knows?
Gun to head: I'd rather see Jones play over Glennon but for Jones' health, I'd rather he sit out. It doesn't make much of a difference who plays or Jones misses games. This is why I keep bringing up his record as a starter. They're not beating the Rams. If they did, I would be stunned beyond the Electric System in the winter.
Jones is a better QB than Glennon and McCoy but then again, Jones is better at playing QB than I am.
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In comment 15412635 Tuckrule said:
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In comment 15412629 Producer said:
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In comment 15412623 Tuckrule said:
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That’s a big no no. Terps is going to lose it. He doesn’t look at that. He looks at playing QB in a vacuum. Roster doesn’t matter. Coaches don’t matter. Nothing matters.
Most QB analysts isolate traits and assess QBs independent of context.
Correct and the ones who do that professionally and former players who played the position love what Jones does. They too blame the roster specifically the line.
Nope. Not great arm talent. Slow to read the field. Panics under pressure. Inaccurate in short to intermediate game. Often locks on targets. Slow to get rid of the ball. Occasionally throws a pretty deep ball. Does better with designed reads. Struggles out of structure.
Lol you're one of the worst posters on this board who clearly doesn't know a lick about the game of football. Go away.
I've watched football for 50 years and have eyes on at least a little of every game every week. I clearly listed deficits in Jones' game. And all you got is I don't know football? If you think Jones has played like a top QB, I don't believe you know a lick about the game.
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
In all fairness I don’t think that’s all on jones. I think this team and defense especially are not good enough to even overcome one turnover and win a game so perhaps Garrett/ judge decided to go ultra conservative. But at the same time it might be their assessment of jones is that he’ll look a lot like Glennon if they turn him loose
It’s just kinda weird that in year three he’s a mystery; I would think in the nfl that is a bad sign not a good one. And now I guess I I understand the Garrett hate around here. But I’m still completely amazed how people see a mystery at best in jones automatically assume the best ; pump him up to be a top 3 QB ; and just assume a former vet QB above .500 coach has no clue about football. You gotta love this place lol.
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If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
In all fairness I don’t think that’s all on jones. I think this team and defense especially are not good enough to even overcome one turnover and win a game so perhaps Garrett/ judge decided to go ultra conservative. But at the same time it might be their assessment of jones is that he’ll look a lot like Glennon if they turn him loose
It’s just kinda weird that in year three he’s a mystery; I would think in the nfl that is a bad sign not a good one. And now I guess I I understand the Garrett hate around here. But I’m still completely amazed how people see a mystery at best in jones automatically assume the best ; pump him up to be a top 3 QB ; and just assume a former vet QB above .500 coach has no clue about football. You gotta love this place lol.
No, it is primarily on Jones. They reduced the offense last season, putting him on a leash, to avoid his mistakes, and they have not yet opened the offense fully.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?
Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?
Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
So one OPOTW award and all of his poor play is forgotten? Doesn't he have to prove he is consistent? Did you know Trubisky won it? Did you know Mariota won it? Did you know Tyrod Taylor won it? Did you know Brock Osweiler won it?
Do you think any of them should be the Giants QB?
Winning Player of the Week means little when deciding if someone has enough ability to be our franchise QB.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.
A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
I agree with a lot of this. Though I think the Browns are a legit contender. You are right that Mayfield is good, not great. If they had an elite QB they would be the favorites rather than 4th favorite, or so. They are a good example for this Jones conversation. If Jones becomes a decent QB we need to have as much or more than what the Browns have to become SB contenders. They have an elite OL, elite RBs and a great D. Getting all these systems to that level is difficult, and it is impossible to sustain for long periods. Building a champion without a great QB is a difficult task.
I agree with everything else you say.
9-22. .290.
I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.
If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.
I'd be looking into a vet star QB like Rodgers if he's even close to available this offseason. And i'd keep Jones as the backup. I'd be whispering in AR's ear already or letting little birds offer up sweet nothings here at Mara tech. You want to own the empire state building? Fine.
If any great player or coach of any kind avails himself the Giants need to all over him. It's time to panic. Enough with this horse shit.
A highly paid vet isn't going to be an option. The Giants assured themselves of that when they threw money at Williams, Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, etc.
If they're going to make a change at QB it should look like this:
1. Trade Jones this offseason
2. Identify a couple QB prospects in this draft and hope you can get them at the appropriate range - don't reach or force anything.
If you can't execute #2 for whatever reason, find a cheap free agent. 2022 is going to be a mess anyway.
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond
I don't think Daniel Jones is bad.. but lets not say that Mahomes would suck as bad and pretend like we would still not win 7 games last year if we had Mahomes..
DJ can be good and I don't see him being bad yet..
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Jones just win offensive player of the week?
With time to throw and open receivers you can win with him. I guess arguments are going to continue for years because unless forced out by injury, he isn’t going anywhere.
With time to throw and open receivers, you can win with almost anyone at QB. You can probably win with Glennon.
A franchise QB makes plays despite pressure, throws guys open and fits balls into tight windows. A franchise QB makes enough of those plays a game to win you games. If you are waiting until Jones consistently has a clean pocket and guys with three steps on the defender in order to evaluate him, you are concluding he is very ordinary.
It's funny because I've seen people ding CFB QBs at top schools because they have the best line and skill players in the country, and that won't be the case in the NFL. Yet the narrative around DJ is that he can't be evaluated without a similar offense to those top colleges.
If he needs everything just perfect then he's not a franchise QB. Doesn't mean he can't win, but he's not a 2nd contract guy
First off, Ja'marr Chase is hands down better than any of the 2020 class of wide receivers. Ce Dee Lamb, Ruggs, Jeudy - good players, wouldn't say no to any of them, but Chase is a class above.
To the main point: you can just see the 'wow' factor with each of Herbert, Burrow and Rodgers. It doesn't need three seasons in the NFL to show itself. The best we can hope for with Jones is that he improves to the level Mayfield is at, which is a reasonably competent game manager.
The problem is, you just can't help wondering, "Wow! Imagine if we had Herbert!" The Browns should be playing at a level now where they are talked of as serious contenders for the Super Bowl, but they're not. They have so many pieces in place, but at the end of the day, Mayfield is not a #1 pick QB. Leaving aside the off field issues, you put DeShaun Watson in that Browns side, then they are instant Super Bowl contenders.
Nice post. However you want to characterize it - "wow" factor - you just watch these other QBs similar in experience and age to Jones and the difference in skill level can be pretty profound. We are watching QBs like Herbert, Allen and LJax who just have otherworldly skills. The ability at such a young age to put their teams on their shoulders and make plays. It's turning into a great era of young QBs...
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.
What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.
Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.
He is the top-rated long passer in football.
He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,
He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)
He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.
He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.
I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.
His Deep throw rating is elite
This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.
Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.
You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.
Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.
There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.
Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated
This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)
Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)
This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.
Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.
Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.
It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated
Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.
There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.
Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.
Tannehill is the only one of those you listed that is an above-average QB.
This is incorrect - his touchdown production is poor. I want Jones producing touchdowns and leading a good offense. He hasn't done that.
Recent examples include Darnold, Tannehill, Bridgewater, etc.
What I love about football is that it is the ultimate team sport no one player can succeed without others contributing.
This is not baseball or basketball where a player can dominate regardless of how the team performs.
Daniel Jones has demonstrated that he has all of the prerequisite skills to succeed.
He is the top-rated long passer in football.
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Daniel Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL at throwing the deep ball, per data released recently by Next Gen Stats.
He is top (3) QB is running the ball with 899 yards in 32 games. His running is due to his exceptional athleticism,
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Per NFL's NextGen stats, Jones reached a top-speed of 21.23 miles per hour on his 80-yard, which is faster than any quarterback — including Ravens star Lamar Jackson — has reached since 2018. It was the 15th-fastest play of the 2020 season, per NextGen.
He is tough and courageous to a fault. (See his two point conversion against vs Grady Jarrett vs Atlanta)
Quote:
https://www.giants.com/video/daniel-jones-runs-in-2-pt-conversion-giants-vs-falcons-highlights
He can improve in various aspects but shows that he learns for his errors. This is evidenced by his reduction in turnovers.
He has gone from the most turnovers in the NFL to a QB who is tops in protecting the ball (one interception a hail Mary). This is an amazing turnaround.
I have read from his detractors that he would never fix this problem and he would always be a liability. Not only did Jones improve but Jones has become the QB with the least amount of turnover worthy plays throws.
Quote:
According to PFF: he “also led the position in positively graded throws and recorded the week’s lowest negatively graded throw rate.”
His Deep throw rating is elite
Quote:
Deep attempts: 19-of-39, 636 yards, 5:0 TD-to-INT ratio, 134.3 passer rating
This turnaround has occurred despite his receivers are at the bottom in creating separation forcing to throw into tight windows. As a result, Jones throws into tight windows and has the highest completion rate on contested throws. Prior to Toney (3.9 yards) of separation, the Giants players with the most separation was Engram at 3.1 yards, Shepard 2.6, Golladay 2.1, there are no other players with more than 1.5 yards
Good separation is more than 3 yards. The Giants receivers do not get separation and separation is the key to expected completion percentage.
Quote:
"A key part of determining expected completion percentage is the separation of a receiver from the nearest defender at the time a pass arrives.
Nextgen
This makes Jones completion percentage all the more impressive.
Jones is smart and it shows on the field. He lost his starting center and now calls the blocking assignments adding to his responsibilities.
You rarely see mental mistakes he runs a silent count in adverse conditions without missing a step. He is able to run a sped-up offense without a hitch.
Jones has overcome awful play calling as the Giants are among the leaders in third and long plays Jones has been able offset the unenviable down and distance as Jones among the leaders in converting 3rd and long.
There are common misconceptions that are constantly stated as facts which are just not true.
Jones has a strong arm and is accurate from the pocket.
I constantly hear posters degrade Jones arm. This is just not true. This misconception started when he was drafted, and many draft analysts felt that Daniel Jones did not have a strong arm. Daniel Jeremiah stated
Quote:
“Overall, Jones lacks elite arm strength, but he has a nice blend of size, toughness and football smarts,’’ noted Daniel Jeremiah, draft analyst for NFL Network.
This was an inaccurate analysis that was perpetuated by his detractors despite visual evidence to the contrary. Jones makes ever throw with ease. It would not be possible to be a leader in deep passes without a strong arm.
(see video https://www.nfl.com/videos/daniel-jones-shows-arm-strength-on-flat-footed-26-yard-dime-to-shepard which shows Jones making a 26yard throw flat footed and backing up)
Jones is accurate especially from the pocket. He is rated among the top QBs when throwing from a clean pocket and the leader when looking at throws yards beyond 20 yards. (PFF)
This brings up the issue of protection and running the ball
When the line gives Jones time he comes through when under pressure he is not as precise.
Without a running game the Giants are essentially one dimensional and predictable. Yet Jones is still productive with those handicaps.
Having said this Jones has many foibles that he must improve on. He is not a good passer when rolling out. He is better at reading defenses but he must start to look off the safeties so he can throw receivers open, he must make faster decisions, and he needs to audible out of plays that cannot work. He needs to move better in the pocket when under duress.
These weaknesses are correctable and Jones has shown that he can make changes.
It used to be that QBs had 4-5 years to establish themselves .now in the new NFL teams are pressured and the process is accelerated
Some players take longer to reach their potential and need 4-5 years to succeed.
There appears to be a correlation between success and the quality of the team.
Maholmes, Murray, Herbert, Allen, have had their progress accelerated by being on very good teams.
If you are grading Jones based upon wins and loses then he is subpar but if you are grading him on his skills, production, and potential then he is all you want in a QB.
These are the same tired arguments which have been debunked in 100 posts. The most egregious is that somehow Jones is a top-3 deep ball passer, based on an exotic next gen stat rooted in a small sample size (39 throws), which he is clearly not if you just watch football teams other than the Giants. But even if we accept that this data is correct, you then must deal with numbers from the same data set, and based on much higher (better) sample sizes, which say that Jones is about the very worst QB in small to intermediate throw accuracy. His inaccuracy in these ranges is pretty damning. If you can't throw short to medium you can't really hold a job as an NFL QB.
But just based on eye test there are 12 to 15 QBs that throw deep with more zip and effectiveness than Jones. And if you are going to argue that Jones somehow has a better deep ball than Herbert or Wilson, I'll have to ask you, where are the TDs? You will be alone on an island with these arguments.
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If Jones is such a good QB, why does he play in a remedial offense in year 3?
When do the training wheels come off?
Good QBs don't play in remedial offenses in their third year.
I don't think anyone has responded to this because it's not based on anything but your biased supposition that the Giants have dumb downed their offense. If you can come up with a shred of proof on that, amybe someone will respond
So you don't remember in the middle of last season Judge/Garrett changed the focus of the offense to reduce turnovers and have Jones focus on getting the ball out? And this season we have posters on this board complaining that the offense is rudimentary and conservative. It's roughly the same offense as the middle of last season, conservative to reduce mistakes and turnovers. You don't know this? You don't remember last season?
So why did we have to dumb down the offense to reduce mistakes in the middle of this QBs second year, and still have this offensive scheme in place into his third year? Whereas other QBs are taking off in their third year (or second year) and play without training wheels.
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias
These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance
It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.
I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind
I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?
I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.
I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.
I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.
I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.
If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future
And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.
Facts are facts
Statistics are statistics
You can interpret the facts as you chose and you may selectively believe some facts to prove your bias
These facts are not mine I am regurgitating stats that are commonly accepted as a means to evaluate performance
It is clear that you do not like Daniel Jones that is apparent and you do not need facts to support your contention just your opinion.
I would enjoy seeing facts that dispute my observations and perhaps I will change my mind
I do have a question for you, did you ever like Daniel Jones or you have disliked him since he was drafted ?
Was there anything that you liked about his game?
I find that fans have a tendency to be emotional about their opinions and sometimes that clouds their ability to be objective.
I have been involved in sports and football my entire life having played Division one football at Tulane U. and competed in MMA for over 30 years.
I have been publicly criticized for my play by people who have no idea of what they are talking about but stated their opinions as fact.
I do feel qualified to talk about the qualities that it takes to make a good football player and it is my opinion that Daniel Jones is a baller. He will be a very good pro QB and be successful. He shows constant improvement and wants it.
If fans like you have your way Daniel will accomplish this on another team and the Giants will continue looking for their QB of the future
And bye the way the current crop of college QBs are awful and if available for the draft Jones would be the number one rated QB.
When he was drafted I was cautiously optimistic because Gettleman said he had a conviction about the player. That's what you want. You want your management to have a thoughtful conviction about the QB. I was only cautiously optimistic because Daniel Jones came out of college with no elite traits. None. I can guide you to the Cosell summary of Jones if you have any questions about that.
I soured on Jones last season when the turnovers and mental miscues, and lack of pocket awareness, and general inaccuracy became apparent. I see a stiff, robotic QB, who doesn't have enough instincts to overcome a merely adequate throwing ability. I think this is painfully obvious and I'm not sure why you don't see it. People are joking on here that if he's not Tom Brady or Mahomes, I won't be happy. Ummm.. yea... that's actually correct. We had a chance to get Mahomes last season, in Herbert, because we were fiddling with this kid. We passed on a franchise-altering talent *to see* if Jones can be good. As a management principle I would suggest to all NFL teams, if you don't know that your QB is good, you should assume he is no good, and keep looking. It's pretty simple.
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career
But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.
He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.
He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.
Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.
I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.
I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?
Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.
The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.
2012 gave the NFL Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannehill, Nick Foles and RG3. Okay, a mixed bag, but two players of considerable quality, a few other starters.
2013, almost entirely backups or didn't prove themselves as starters, the highest profile name of the 11 drafted being Geno Smith.
2014, Derek Carr, Garropolo and Bridgewater.
2015, Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston go one and two. No other name of note.
2016, Goff, Wentz, Prescott.
2017, Trubisky, Mahomes, Watson.
So, three really lean years, the point being that there is currrently little buzz about next year's QB class and it may be that with a high pick and extra picks, there just may not be any fruit on the tree.
Ergo, even if he doesn't do a whole lot this season, we may have to re-sign Daniel Jones and keep praying.
He is raw, undisciplined, and folds under pressure.
He has exquisite skills that make up for his poor play
He can run and he has a strong arm .
He is not an accurate passer.
He plays against a low level of competition which makes it hard to project him as a pro.
I am not impressed
I believe that there will be at least two QBs drafted before him.
The turnovers and his in ability to read zone defenses were awful traits that could derail a career
But you have to admit that Jones has done an amazing job in dealing with these issues.
He is no longer a turnover machine and is actually quite good at protecting the ball. This is based upon facts not suppositions.
He is being smart with the ball throwing it away when necessary or taking short runs when the plays not there.
He is throwing the ball where only his players can catch it.
Jones is becoming better at reading defenses and as a result the ball is coming out with alacrity. He is also picking up his second and third options such as Barkley on the wheel route where he scored. In the past I believe that Jones would have settled for a short reception to Engram. That is progress.
I believe that Jones can look robotic when he is confused or does not recognize the defense. He is becoming more
fluid in his play.
I know you do not believe this but I think that Jones is not being used properly.
Could you imagine Lamar Jackson in the Giants offense ?
Baltimore has geared their offense to Jackson's strengths and he has thrived
Put him in a conventional pocket and he would be ordinary.
The Giants owe it to Jones to play to his strengths. He is mobile, throws a great intermediate and long pass. Play action does not work because no team respects the Giants running game. The RPO has worked but the Giants stopped running it after the first game.
The problem though with reducing turnovers is that it came at a cost. The offense is now not productive. It doesn't produce touchdowns. He has to limit the turnovers while throwing TD passes. What we have is still unacceptable, it's just a different kind of unacceptable. Here are some 2021
passing only TD/INT:
Prescott 13/3
Stafford 12/3
Kyler 10/4
Cousins 10/2
Allen 12/2
Herbert 13/3
Brady 15/2
Rodgers 10/3
Ryan 10/3
Mahomes 16/6
Lamar 8/4
You have to score TDs in abundance in the 2021 NFL. That's all there is to it. You have to come out slinging. Interceptions aren't such a big deal if you are throwing enough TDs, certainly if it is at a 3:1, or 4:1 ratio.
He is raw, undisciplined, and folds under pressure.
He has exquisite skills that make up for his poor play
He can run and he has a strong arm .
He is not an accurate passer.
He plays against a low level of competition which makes it hard to project him as a pro.
I am not impressed
I believe that there will be at least two QBs drafted before him.
Yes, in fact I am going to watch him live in late October against Louisiana.
Willis was at Auburn before he transferred. So he is a high level athlete. He's completing 68% of his passes this year. So let's establish a baseline of facts before you spew inaccuracies.
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
If we start scoring points and winning games, you were wrong about Jones sucking.
Me
I don't have a clue anymore, I thought he was going to be the shit, then he was just shit, and now I don't know shit when I see it.
Let's watch.
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing at "if he entered the porthole"
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.
He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.
So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.
Quote:
Everyone knows that Willis is a great athlete and that he went to Auburn
Auburn had great expectations for Willis why do you think he left Auburn?
Auburn does not give up on talent so I suggest that you look into why he left. It has nothing to do with playing for Liberty and the coach.
If he entered the porthole he could have gone anywhere.
Did you see him against Syracuse? This is the best team he has played and he looked ordinary. He was sacked (6) times and while he threw the ball for a high average he was not the best player on the field.
I am not disputing the innate talent but he is a neophyte and if you think that he will be an improvement over Jones you are fooling yourself.
Who cares why he transferred. It didn't work out at Auburn so he left. That happens. I only care about his skill set as a QB. And he's actually a very good guy and very spiritual.
He's very similar in skill sets to LJax, but throws a better ball and has a plus arm. Not as fast, but he can move and has the size to run defenders over.
So right now coming out of college, he has a plus arm, plus athleticism, plus speed, and plus mobility. Maybe Jones had one of those coming out of Duke.
I know nothing of the kid but from your description he sounds like Trey Lance, but with less size.
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
Willis - ( New Window )
It would seem if he can do that then you would be on board?
Jones has lost two tds this year, his run that negated by holding and the the dropped pass by Slayton
Lets see what happens going forward
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out?
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
I'm willing to let this year play out with Jones. If he doesn't look like the long term solution, yes, I would support making a high investment in Willis.
I don't know how long Willis would take to develop. But he is worth the stretch...
It would seem if he can do that then you would be on board?
Jones has lost two tds this year, his run that negated by holding and the the dropped pass by Slayton
Lets see what happens going forward
We need a top-8 QB to be a consistent Super Bowl contender. That to me is the general rule. If Jones becomes that, of course I am on board. I will be thrilled to be wrong. I think in year three the likelihood this will happen is exceedingly low. How many QBs go from subpar to elite after year 3. It's not many in the recent history of the game. Especially if they don't have unique traits. I know many point to Josh Allen but he also had staggering athletic and passing traits to go along with a lot of wins. I don't see the comparison, at all. This is why I feel it is an imperative to see the truth of the situation. Banking on Jones transforming into an elite QB is an extremely low probability. So while I do not favor cutting or trading Jones unless we get a great offer, I do think we need to explore every avenue to upgrade.
The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.
Thanks I will check this out tonight!
I like him. He looks to have solid arm talent and he has the burst of a wide out. He does get run down by a defender in the long run but he is an explosive and decisive runner. I wish he was bigger. He reminds me of Kyler a bit. Less explosive but maybe a better arm.
If you draft him you have to build an offense designed for him a la Lamar and Kyler.
The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.
The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.
He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.
I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.
What happens if he is a bust what then
How often do the Giants keep starting over until they get it right
Willis is a project who will take years to develop are you willing to put up with 2-3 more years of bad football with no certainty that he will pan out? yes. A full reboot with a clear vision would do a lot for my confidence. Including being OK with 2-3 years of growing pains. Better than the perpetual "one year/ player away" folly we're in now
You know what you have with Jones build a team around him
If there was an exceptional QB available I might think differently but all of the QBs have deficiencies.
Replies in bold
The runs against VT are really good. VT has excellent athletes and Willis looks a tier above them.
The throw at 7:44 falling back before he gets hit is a sweet long throw.
He throws a rocket moving up and into the pocket at the 8:10 mark for a TD. That ball had vapor behind it.
I sort of see a mix of Russell Wilson with his body type and LJax with his ability to escape and run.
I like those, especially 5:35. Ability to throw on the run is impressive.
I actually like his intermediate throws. The one at 1.33 is 35 yards but it's across the field and the cameraman doesn't keep up with it.
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.
Jones looked better as a rookie then they do now .
None of these QBs has had a game that can remotely close to Jones game vs. Tampa.
Drafting a QB is a crap shoot and if you had watched the college highlights of these QBs you would come away thinking that they were going to be all stars.
That brings me to the 2021 crop of QBs. There is no Lawrence in the group. There are QBs that have similar profiles and potential to last years group. But there is no sure thing.
So wishing to obtain a top 5 QB is a remote, possibility. Even finding a QB that is better than Jones is not likely.
I would rather use the Giants draft capitol to build the team. Find a stud edge, an interior LB, back up running back, a stud OT, and a stud OG.
As for Jones he may never be a Mahomes, or Brady, or Wilson, etc. but I think that Jones upside is a more athletic version of Eli
Look at Eli's first four years. The Giants won more games but there were Giant fans clamoring for his head.
In his first four years Eli never exceeded 24 TDs, his QB rating never exceeded 77, he had 20 ints in his fourth year.
What Eli became was a winner and that is my hope for Jones
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
Interesting question.
From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.
I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.
So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.
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Which of the Qbs drafted last year would you want for the Giants?
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
Interesting question.
From a physical skills standpoint and upside/high ceiling, I'd take Lawrence, Fields, and Lance over Jones right now. Just too many tools to work with.
I like Wilson, but I'm more neutral on him right now. Not a fan of Jones's overall physical attributes. Very limited.
So I would take 3 of the five you mentioned. I just don't see anything special about Jones. I think pretty good-good is his upside range.
For me, definitely Lawrence and Lance. Probably, Fields and Wilson. No interest in Mac.
Lawrence
Fields
Lance
Wilson
Jones
None of these QBs presently look like a franchise QB
That doesn't mean that they won't develop into very good QBs.
You're judging Trevor Lawrence after five games played under the shitshow that is Urban Meyer? That's harsh.
I'd happily take Trevor Lawrence over Daniel Jones, but I'd also want to take a long, hard look at how we are going to develop him and what kind of offense we should really be playing.
The larger question is what to do if Jones is merely good. What if he winds up in the Mayfield/Cousins range - also a low probability event at this stage but not as low as Jones becoming top-8. Is that good enough? Tough call, but I say ultimately, no, that is not good enough. Are the Vikes happy they sunk all that money into Cousins? I don't think so. I always say here, and nobody seems to acknowledge it, this is about game theory. The game within the game in the NFL is to acquire an elite QB by any means necessary. Then you're in the game. Until then, we are just bystanders, imo, unless we get unbelievably lucky and build the 2000 Ravens - but even that luck only lasts a couple of seasons.
This is a great post, especially the part about the game within the game.
That we won two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who was a #1 pick but yet an above average (not elite) player, was a miracle, not a business model.
- Cam Newton
- Matt Ryan
- Jared Goff
- Jimmy Garrapolo
- Nick Foles
- Peyton Manning (2nd title win)
Now I understand people will tell me that cam and Ryan were MVPs.... but consistently they were not top 10 QBs in the league. They had amazing years yes - but neither of them are HOF bound (nor shouldnt be). Catching lightning in a bottle is risky. To be a contender, you need health, good interior line play, and a little luck.
Having a top tier QB just gives you more opportunities to get there.
1. The money is right.
2. He gets better at protecting himself.