So this came up in a conversation between BrownHornet and JonC on the Finishing the 1st Half Strong thread, but should the Giants convert their 3-4 defense into a 4-3? I say yes.
Why they should change over:
1. Generally, the linebackers. The 3-4 is reliant on linebackers who can stop the run and rush the passer and we don't have the latter (or much of the former really).
1a. Inside Linebackers. Martinez is a good MIKE linebacker but his inside running mate Crowder and backup Ragland hasn't been doing a good job in his absence; he hasn't been a good tackler, which is necessary to be a MIKE linebacker. Ragland is also weak in coverage.
1b. Edge (3-4 outside linebackers). I've complained about our edge defenders as the day is long, but they haven't done a good job for the last several years. Oftentimes the starters (Lorenzo Carter and Oshane Ximines) haven't been setting the edge against the run or getting after the quarterback.
2. Nose Tackle. Simply put, we don't have a good nose tackle as Austin Johnson and Danny Shelton haven't been great at soaking up blockers so the ends and linebackers can make tackles. The nose tackle is probably the most important piece in a 3-4 defense and we didn't hit that need on the nose (pun intended).
3. Dexter Lawrence and Leonard Williams, currently the 3-4 defensive ends. For a 1st round pick at DT, Dexter Lawrence has been a disappointment. When a DT is drafted that high, he's expected to be able to get after the quarterback more than he has, which he can't do if he's a two-gapping defensive end. Leonard Williams also hasn't played to his contract as he hasn't gotten after the quarterback; this might have to do with two-gapping. They might be better served in a one-gap system where they have more chances getting after ball carriers and quarterbacks.
What has to be done, not knowing who will be available in free agency:
1. Get new edge rushers.
Lorenzo Carter's contract is up after this year and frankly, he hasn't earned a second contract yet (he's supposedly good at run defense but hasn't shown it and has barely gotten pressure on the quarterback let alone a sack). Ojulari has been okay blitzing (3 sacks in 5 games) but at 6'2", 249 lbs, he doesn't hold up great against big offensive tackles against the run.
To run a 4-3, a team needs edges who are strong at the point of attack against the run and can get after the quarterback on a consistent basis. Should probably double-down on edge in the draft.
2. More talent at linebackers.
Only one inside spot needs to be filled and Martinez can fill that, but we need two outside linebackers who can play the run and cover. Ojulari can supposedly fill the Will-linebacker since he has some ability to drop into coverage and can blitz; he even boasts about this in an interview given before the draft. That leaves the SAM linebacker, whose responsibility is to cover the tight end (admittedly we still need a SAM linebacker right now). Still researching into that.
So what do you guys say?
Finishing the 1st Half Strong - (
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One OLB to tackle and cover, or two ends. If Ojulari can bulk up to play end, then two OLBs.
i know we play a lot of nickel and we don't have DE's but hell, we gotta try something
Who plays true DE? Who plays OLB? Their personnel blows to play either
Who plays true DE? Who plays OLB? Their personnel blows to play either
Hence why I said next season in the thread title.
I've always liked 4-3 over 3-4 unless you have elite level 3-4 OLBs
Moral of the story, both schemes suck if the players in it aren’t any good
I've always liked 4-3 over 3-4 unless you have elite level 3-4 OLBs
What percentage of defensive snaps in general per game do you think the Giants have 4 down lineman or 4 at the line?
Finding and developing OL & LBs for the NY Giants is oil and water...they don't mix.
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I think it makes sense. And with the trend in the league going toward more 3-4, it could leave more 4-3 personnel there for there taking.
I've always liked 4-3 over 3-4 unless you have elite level 3-4 OLBs
What percentage of defensive snaps in general per game do you think the Giants have 4 down lineman or 4 at the line?
"Linemen...?
If you aren't counting Carter/Ximines/Ojulari as DL (I don't)...I would say under 10%
Finding and developing OL & LBs for the NY Giants is oil and water...they don't mix.
This, 100%
Who plays true DE? Who plays OLB? Their personnel blows to play either
My thought (as detailed in the OP) would be having Martinez as the middle linebacker. The true DEs and OLB aren't on the roster (unless Elerson Smith shows something) and (theoretically) would be drafted.
I don't see 2016 as a year of one year wonders. That year was the last winning year, the last playoff appearance. It's hard for anyone to argue that against me, since the team has lost more than any other team since them, and gotten that loser mentality.
A lot of the key defensive players are still in the league three or four years after cut by Giants. JPP stands out regular season with 9.5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, 2 clean picks and 6 pass defenses for the Super Bowl Tampa Bay. I guess that would crack this lineup.
Jonathan Hankins has been with three teams since the Giants lost him, but he's started for all of them and in his two seasons with Oakland he had a combined 25 tackles for a loss.
Landon Collins was a one year wonder, but he hasn't been a bust since then. For the next three years he led his team in tackles, and tackling is a skill not on this team anymore.
Last year in only 7 games with the Redskins he had two sacks, a forced fumble, a pick and 4 tackles for a loss. That's a whole year's production for our guys.
Janoris Jenkins is a starting corner for a very good Titan team.
Romeo Okwara has started for the Lions the last four years. He had 7.5 sacks one year. Last year was his best with 10 sacks and 3 forced fumbles.
Snacks has been around and after being waived by Seattle he was going to call it a career. But when the Packers claimed him to help with their very bad run defense, he joined.
Vernon, who I thought was overrated, had 9 sacks for the Browns last season but missed the playoffs with a torn Achilles tendon.
Point is that these players who are still around and starting have ability and if left together as a unit on the Giants would have played better.
Also Giants don't become the biggest loser in the league and have that to carry around with them.
If you aren't counting Carter/Ximines/Ojulari as DL (I don't)...I would say under 10%
Independent of whom, I’m more getting at the number of snaps the Giants have four players with their hands in the dirt, and/or lined up on the line of scrimmage.
From casually observing, I’ve noticed it appears to be more this year.
Dex and Williams would make a pretty dynamic 4-3 DT combo
And for Janoris Jenkins, Titans D is not good. They're a good team because of Henry, Tannehill and their offense. Defense has been an issue for a few years now and flipping Jackson/Butler duo for Jenkins and young pups hasn't worked out yet. Still 24th in defensive PPG and 21st in yards. He only has 2 PD on the year with no interceptions.
Given how badly they're struggling to identify 3-4 OLBs, I'm not sure they can still identify 4-3 DEs either. That skill seemed to leave the building with Coughlin and/or the Reese leadership.
I don't see 2016 as a year of one year wonders. That year was the last winning year, the last playoff appearance. It's hard for anyone to argue that against me, since the team has lost more than any other team since them, and gotten that loser mentality.
A lot of the key defensive players are still in the league three or four years after cut by Giants. JPP stands out regular season with 9.5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, 2 clean picks and 6 pass defenses for the Super Bowl Tampa Bay. I guess that would crack this lineup.
Jonathan Hankins has been with three teams since the Giants lost him, but he's started for all of them and in his two seasons with Oakland he had a combined 25 tackles for a loss.
Landon Collins was a one year wonder, but he hasn't been a bust since then. For the next three years he led his team in tackles, and tackling is a skill not on this team anymore.
Last year in only 7 games with the Redskins he had two sacks, a forced fumble, a pick and 4 tackles for a loss. That's a whole year's production for our guys.
Janoris Jenkins is a starting corner for a very good Titan team.
Romeo Okwara has started for the Lions the last four years. He had 7.5 sacks one year. Last year was his best with 10 sacks and 3 forced fumbles.
Snacks has been around and after being waived by Seattle he was going to call it a career. But when the Packers claimed him to help with their very bad run defense, he joined.
Vernon, who I thought was overrated, had 9 sacks for the Browns last season but missed the playoffs with a torn Achilles tendon.
Point is that these players who are still around and starting have ability and if left together as a unit on the Giants would have played better.
Also Giants don't become the biggest loser in the league and have that to carry around with them.
These guys would also have been paid more if they were still with the Giants or taken up larger cap space. Besides JPP, the rest of the people on this list would have been non factors. And the reason JPP is gone because he was a huge cap hit, I believe you would have to count the millions it would have cost the giants per year using all his fingers twice.
When you have leadership that is unable to identify edge talent, chooses to spend $21M per on a 3-4 DE, is throwing massive resources at the backend and it's not performing well at all, confidence is low they know what they're doing in assembling talent.
I'm not sure their scouts are during a very good job especially with sourcing key positions. And, the collective tendency to pick for positional need at the top of the draft, while it might please fans with their paper checklists, it's not the best collection of talent afterwards.
Given how badly they're struggling to identify 3-4 OLBs, I'm not sure they can still identify 4-3 DEs either. That skill seemed to leave the building with Coughlin and/or the Reese leadership.
If there was a large outcry to switch to the 3-4 I wasn't part of it. I grew up in the 2000s where the Giants could pressure with 4 and later the Four Aces pass rush. Loved watching them work.
We have a few players, mainly 3-4 players, whose contracts are up after this year. Lorenzo Carter is in the last year of his rookie deal, while Johnson, Shelton, and Ragland are on one-year deals. There's a few guys who I'm looking at regarding 4-3 end in the draft, particularly in the first three or four rounds.
The wild card is Ojulari; whether or not he'd want to bulk up to play 4-3 DE or can play WILL linebacker like a Jessie Armstead-type. I'd give him a long look at either spot and could go either way; Ojulari even boasts about his versatility stopping the run, rushing the passer, or even dropping into coverage.
‘I’m That Guy’: Azeez Ojulari Can Be NFL’s Next Premier Pass Rusher - ( New Window )
I also find that the 43 vs 34 chats are a bit of a relic from years past, as we only ever really see these formations are basically only used on 1st down. It's just something that doesn't move the needle for me as the nickel has taken over as the nfls primary defense.
Load up for next year and get a pass rusher. That should be the goal...they can play whatever front they want on 1st down, it won't make a difference until they upgrade what they have at edge regardless.
The questions that can't be answered just from watching game tape is what was the job of the DL or LB on a given play. Do they have to read 1 gap or 2 gaps? Do they have coverage responsibility? How many rushers were sent after the QB? Was the DL given the green light to go after the QB full throttle or does the team expect them to control the rush and keep the QB in the pocket? What type of twists/stunts are they running? Did it go inside or outside? Was it Cover 1, 2, 3 or 0? Can they simplify the D the scheme so the players can play faster or are the calls too predictable?
Judge and Graham are never going to throw the players under the bus or say they had bad game plan. So the best we can hope for is that the DL players step up and start to win reps or the scheme is improved to get these guys off the field more quickly. I don't think the formation makes one damn bit of difference.
The questions that can't be answered just from watching game tape is what was the job of the DL or LB on a given play. Do they have to read 1 gap or 2 gaps? Do they have coverage responsibility? How many rushers were sent after the QB? Was the DL given the green light to go after the QB full throttle or does the team expect them to control the rush and keep the QB in the pocket? What type of twists/stunts are they running? Did it go inside or outside? Was it Cover 1, 2, 3 or 0? Can they simplify the D the scheme so the players can play faster or are the calls too predictable?
Judge and Graham are never going to throw the players under the bus or say they had bad game plan. So the best we can hope for is that the DL players step up and start to win reps or the scheme is improved to get these guys off the field more quickly. I don't think the formation makes one damn bit of difference.
I totally agree with this observation.
Bill told the reporter that during that time everyone was running the Tampa 2. Which left a ton of high talent 3-4 players available for cheap. So he went to 3-4 and loaded with high end talent.
I found that pretty interesting.
So whoever is the new GM and assuming we have a new D coach and whoever at HC, we should be able to adapt to either
I personally love the 3-4 but its a bias from the Parcells days.
With today's NFL, it feels its harder to get talent at the 3-4 level from college and FA. Not sure why.
So whoever is the new GM and assuming we have a new D coach and whoever at HC, we should be able to adapt to either
I personally love the 3-4 but its a bias from the Parcells days.
With today's NFL, it feels its harder to get talent at the 3-4 level from college and FA. Not sure why.
If we were to stay with the 3-4, we'd need edge rushers and outside linebackers anyways, as well as a nose tackle and another inside linebacker beside Martinez who's better at pass coverage.
Given how badly they're struggling to identify 3-4 OLBs, I'm not sure they can still identify 4-3 DEs either. That skill seemed to leave the building with Coughlin and/or the Reese leadership.
What would you suggest regarding the defense? If we're going to stay with the 3-4, we need a better nose tackle, an edge rusher or two and a coverage inside linebacker.
It's a tough one, but with the NFL game based on speed a 4-3 makes more sense to me. Suspect moving forward they'll continue to mix 3-4 and 4-3 concepts, so they've got to upgrade those positions either way and will likely try to find more multiple players.
Do you think this is a weakness of the amoeba defense?
You're right, we don't. The question is whether or not the Giants should commit to the 3-4 or go back to the 4-3. To do either one, changes need to be made.
I didn't say to change up this year. But what we have right now and how we've been utilizing players in the front seven isn't working since Carter and Ojulari have been getting washed out in the run game. Plus I wasn't suggesting Leonard Williams at LDE in the OP; I was suggesting him at DT with Dexter Lawrence. Moving to a 4-3 would also remove the need for another inside linebacker next to Blake Martinez, which has been a weak spot this year.
2. Double down on edge in the draft. I don't think the Giants are going to be in range for Thibodeaux, but I also like Aidan Hutchinson or George Karlaftis; both are versatile players who can line up in multiple spots and be disruptive in the ground game and pass rush. We all know how much Judge loves versatility. After that, get another edge in the mid rounds (maybe even one in late rounds) as a developmental player, say Kingsley Enagbare (he keeps jumping around the first to fourth rounds) or Arnold Ebiketie; Coach Chaos might know something about the latter.
3. Draft a SAM linebacker in the early-mid rounds, a linebacker that can key tight ends and hold the point of attack in the run game. Christian Harris might be out of our reach but there's also Brandon Smith, Micah Parsons' replacement.
4. Give Ojulari a look at DE or WILL linebacker. Ojulari is a good edge rusher, but he's light enough that he gets washed out in the run game. Ojulari has also boasted about his ability to do everything asked of him: play the run, pass rush, pass coverage (he apparently had to do that a lot in Georgia and seems to have a good feel for it).
Other than that, I think that Dexter Lawrence and Leonard Williams have better chances to make a play and we don't have to rely on another inside linebacker next to Blake Martinez. The only other area is the secondary and I'm not really versed to know how to improve that.