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Why can’t a potential new GM inherit Judge?

Sean : 10/13/2021 6:34 pm
I keep seeing the point made about HC/GM needing to be on the same schedule. I don’t see this as the case for a few reasons:

1. I think it would look very poorly to potential head coaches if Judge is shit canned after two seasons. If the THIRD straight head coach is fired after two seasons or less, other coaches take notice of that. Add in the fact that Judge was hired to be a program builder and first time head coach, I think it is a bad look to fire him so soon. Also consider that he inherited an older GM on the hot seat, inherited a QB which he did not draft & dealt with Covid in his first year.

2. Why does an outside GM need to be tied together with Judge? Let’s say a young executive is hired from the outside, he would clearly be hired to be the GM for hopefully at least 10 years. If Judge does poorly in 2022, this new GM would have influence on the next head coach anyway. He would have a longer leash than Judge, which is typical for GM’s. Let’s take a look at the Cardinals:

Steve Keim is viewed as one of the better GM’s right now. He was hired as GM after coming through the organization in 2013. This was the same year Bruce Arians was hired as head coach.
-Was Keim removed from the position when Arians retired? No.
-Was Keim removed from the position when Steve Wilks was one & done? No.

Keim is now on his third coach and the team is winning.

Gettleman is 70 and on his 4th season as GM. His record is 16-37. He should go, he’s had sufficient time. Judge is only on year 2.

My point is, if Mara hires a GM outside (let’s say Ryan Poles for example), I don’t see the harm in keeping Judge another year. The new GM would outlast him anyway.
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Why would any GM or Franchise  
Giants73 : 10/13/2021 10:30 pm : link
Want joe judge. What exactly has he ever done to suggest that he can be a competent NFL coach? The one thing the guy has done since he has been here is get Sale to coach the line. Besides that he is a disaster.
RE: The only way to justify  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/13/2021 11:39 pm : link
In comment 15412657 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
Judge staying is if he gets to pick a GM to work with.
Sadly, as long as John is making the ultimate decisions and Chris is making the ultimate personnel recommendations, none of the rest matters. It will just be rinse and repeat.?


This. The Mara family are inept period
RE: RE: RE: So you let Judge pick the GM  
Go Terps : 10/14/2021 12:06 am : link
In comment 15412881 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15412858 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?

Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?



This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.

If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.

I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.



Outside of his press conferences, what do you like about Judge? Granted it is still early, but this year he has seemed unfocused during games and his teams seem unprepared and undisciplined.

I was high on Judge coming into this season and know it is still early in his second year. But man this team does not come across as one that is well coached.


I don't get the sense that this is an unprepared team each week. I sense he's hard working and, probably more importantly, smart. If it doesn't work out here I expect he'll be successful somewhere else.

The sense I do get is that he coaches like someone who doesn't trust his players to execute, and like someone who knows he's entering almost every game undermanned. I think this roster is horrible and he knows it. Further I think there is a good chance the talk about Gettleman and him working together is PR bullshit. I can't imagine Gettleman working well with anyone, particularly when his back is to the wall.

Judge inherited a lot of horseshit assembled by Gettleman: Jones, Barkley, offensive line, no edge rushers. This roster as currently comprised could only be constructed by a complete fool who is completely out of touch with the modern game. I don't get that vibe off Judge. I'd like to see him working with a roster assembled by him in conjunction with a competent GM and not a slob.

I wonder very much if Judge knows the predicament he inherited and is just waiting out Gettleman's tenure. If Gettleman "retires" after this season and we see a change at quarterback and Barkley traded, I think that will be confirmation that these past two years the Giants have been a house divided.
They won’t look outside  
TommyWiseau : 10/14/2021 8:01 am : link
The organization at people such as Ed Dodds from the Colts. They will hire from within and it will be Abrams
RE: The only way to justify  
joeinpa : 10/14/2021 8:18 am : link
In comment 15412657 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
Judge staying is if he gets to pick a GM to work with.
Sadly, as long as John is making the ultimate decisions and Chris is making the ultimate personnel recommendations, none of the rest matters. It will just be rinse and repeat.?


You just painted a no hope scenerio. So why do you keep following this team.
RE: They won’t look outside  
Sean : 10/14/2021 8:19 am : link
In comment 15413003 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
The organization at people such as Ed Dodds from the Colts. They will hire from within and it will be Abrams

I don’t think so. If they rally for 7 wins I’d agree, but Mara knows the fans will revolt if GM is promoted from within.
I hear what you are saying Terps  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2021 8:51 am : link
I just get a different vibe from Judge. It seems to me that he is trying to simply build the Patriots 2.0 in East Rutherford. I think this is trap many of Belichik's disciples fall into.

The Giants waste timeouts because they can't get plays in regularly. The team makes mental mistakes all game. Last week they lost their composure. Those are things that shouldn't happen if a team is well coached and prepared.

I don't blame the losing on him directly. This roster is bad and won't win many games because we have less talent than most teams we will line up against. But I have yet to see the smart, tough team gutting it out that he preached he was going to create.
It Took Roselle Intervention To Place George Young As GM  
JoeDonLooney : 10/14/2021 8:54 am : link
Let's not forget Pete Roselle's intervening and coercing the Maras, placing George Young, an "outsider" as GM. Later Ernie Accorsi, another outsider came in. Both had difficulty earlier (anyone remember the fan reaction when Phil Simms was drafted out of Moorehead State?). How many fans wanted Scott Bruner to be the QB; not Simms? I recall a number of fans were not pleased with what the Giants gave the Chargers for Eli Manning. Both QBs struggled early in their careers and then what?

God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.

As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).
How much authority does a outside GM  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 8:56 am : link
have? You have two Mara family members in prominent roles that have John's ear.

A new GM could inherit Judge  
JonC : 10/14/2021 8:58 am : link
but would they want him is the question.
Mara needs to make 1 of 2 decisions  
Biteymax22 : 10/14/2021 9:00 am : link
1. Commit to Judge, involve him in the new GM search so he can pick someone he "mesh's" with. If he does this, Judge needs to stay for more than just one more year even if we lose, you don't let him pick a GM and fire him in a year.

2. Commit to hiring a GM that has 100% decision making which includes whether to keep Judge or move on. You can't force Judge on the person but you also shouldn't mandate he fire him. If this is the situation I'd like to see the GM have total decision making power on the next coach without Mara/Tisch involvement.
I also don't see allowing Judge to pick the GM  
JonC : 10/14/2021 9:01 am : link
when he struggles with basic game management and painfully conservative decisions with a roster carrying a very slim margin for error.
RE: A new GM could inherit Judge  
Sean : 10/14/2021 9:04 am : link
In comment 15413058 JonC said:
Quote:
but would they want him is the question.

I agree completely. I just have an issue firing Judge after 2 years like the previous two HC’s. When Mara retained Gettleman, this is the bed he made. DG is in year 4 and deserves to go.
RE: It Took Roselle Intervention To Place George Young As GM  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15413051 JoeDonLooney said:
Quote:
Let's not forget Pete Roselle's intervening and coercing the Maras, placing George Young, an "outsider" as GM. Later Ernie Accorsi, another outsider came in. Both had difficulty earlier (anyone remember the fan reaction when Phil Simms was drafted out of Moorehead State?). How many fans wanted Scott Bruner to be the QB; not Simms? I recall a number of fans were not pleased with what the Giants gave the Chargers for Eli Manning. Both QBs struggled early in their careers and then what?

God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.

As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).


Agree with a President. The issue is you have more Mara's in the equation this time. Not sure some of the Mara's will want John keeping his role and the others are ousted. Chris could say well I will take your role then John. Maybe I can pick better HC's.
RE: It Took Roselle Intervention To Place George Young As GM  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2021 9:06 am : link
In comment 15413051 JoeDonLooney said:
Quote:
Let's not forget Pete Roselle's intervening and coercing the Maras, placing George Young, an "outsider" as GM. Later Ernie Accorsi, another outsider came in. Both had difficulty earlier (anyone remember the fan reaction when Phil Simms was drafted out of Moorehead State?). How many fans wanted Scott Bruner to be the QB; not Simms? I recall a number of fans were not pleased with what the Giants gave the Chargers for Eli Manning. Both QBs struggled early in their careers and then what?

God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.

As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).


Start at President? You know that is John Mara, right?
RE: RE: A new GM could inherit Judge  
JonC : 10/14/2021 9:09 am : link
In comment 15413063 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 15413058 JonC said:


Quote:


but would they want him is the question.


I agree completely. I just have an issue firing Judge after 2 years like the previous two HC’s. When Mara retained Gettleman, this is the bed he made. DG is in year 4 and deserves to go.


Judge and the players need to turn this season around, and demonstrate they're not a bunch that's in over their heads as Shurmur and his staff were. Otherwise, there will be blood as they're headed for another 3-4 win season.

DG has done a poor job building the roster, he should get the boot. But, elevating Abrams is a non-starter for me.

It's a mess.
A new GM can clearly inherit Judge.  
NYGgolfer : 10/14/2021 9:12 am : link
No one likes the won-loss record, but the NY Giants have put out ringing public endorsements on Joe Judge for past 12 months. Judge is simply not going to be changed out short of a massive loss of the locker room, and that is unlikely.

Some will say that doesn't mean much since the NY Giants publicly support everyone like they did Daniel Jones during the last offseason. Except those comments have also included some qualifier phrases like "this is a big year for Jones" and "takes 3 years for QBs" and the like. Jones is playing better this year which is good, but he is far more likely to be changed out than Judge.

Judge is learning how to be a Head Coach. He never was, and with that comes some bumps. I think he realizes his roster wasn't all that good to start the season, so he pressed some and also tried to rely moreso on his veteran Defense to back him up. Except those decisions have back-fired on him early in this season. Better, more disciplined play by the players will not only make Judge press less but it will make him look more like what we all saw a year ago.

Giants need to find a smart, aggressive GM that sees things in same manner Judge does in forming a new team for the future. Still too many positions that need better talent and a deeper desire to not lose.
RE: RE: It Took Roselle Intervention To Place George Young As GM  
JoeDonLooney : 10/14/2021 9:14 am : link
In comment 15413066 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15413051 JoeDonLooney said:


Quote:


Let's not forget Pete Roselle's intervening and coercing the Maras, placing George Young, an "outsider" as GM. Later Ernie Accorsi, another outsider came in. Both had difficulty earlier (anyone remember the fan reaction when Phil Simms was drafted out of Moorehead State?). How many fans wanted Scott Bruner to be the QB; not Simms? I recall a number of fans were not pleased with what the Giants gave the Chargers for Eli Manning. Both QBs struggled early in their careers and then what?

God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.

As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).



Start at President? You know that is John Mara, right?


Yep! I am with Go Terps on this one.
To me  
Toth029 : 10/14/2021 9:15 am : link
It looks like this.

Does removing Gettleman truly change anything? Some lime to think so, however, if Abrams remains in tact with the new GM and has as much input, and also Chris Mara keeps his title on the team (Senior VP of player personnel), how much power will the GM have?
In the end this is an entertainment business...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/14/2021 9:19 am : link
so if you lose the entertainment aspect of your product then it's time to go. The fans calling for blood won't help this organization stick to a rebuilding plan. It's almost inevitable that the next coach/GM will need more than 21 games to fix the mess we're in. They could get fortunate and see something happen sooner, but misfortune also happens, and to good people too.

Some of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL have served the Giants without having the opportunity to implement their full program here. Lombardi, Landry, Belichick, Payton have all implemented programs that achieved SB level of success but were not able to establish themselves here. Philly couldn't handle more of the kind of success that Andy Reid gave them, but the truth of the matter is that Tom Brady is showing that coaching can only do so much, the players have to produce. This is why you cannot evaluate the success of a coach or the program they implement by looking only at the wins/losses. Like any other position you MUST define the success criteria and measure performance against it.

That approach is too sophisticated for the mob mentality of the fan base in general, so ownership has to weigh the evaluation of the coach/gm vs. the cries for blood from the mob to determine whether or not it's time to move on.

Although many "fans" here think we have terrible ownership that must go, we are the only franchise who has won a super bowl in the 80's, 90's, 00's, and 10's. While it has admittedly been too long between championships for my liking, I am more inclined to support the owners as they try to find the right people to build a winning program/culture. I think they know what a winning program looks like and have far better measures of individual leadership performance than what we get from our regular glimpses on game and media days.
I'd like to see the GM have total decision making power  
arniefez : 10/14/2021 9:22 am : link
on the next coach.

The last time that was the case George Young chose Jim Fassel. Ernie was ignored when Coughlin was hired and John and Chris Mara have picked the last 3 coaches. I think they chose the guy Gettleman wanted when they hired Shurmer. I think Gettleman was much less of an influence when Judge was hired.

Just my opinion and it hasn't mattered the team is still in the bottom 5 of the NFL and going to lose double digits for the 5th year in a row. At a quick glance no team in the Super Bowl era has had more than 6 double digit losing seasons in a row. The Browns, Lions and Jaguars done it. Those 3 teams have been the poster children for incompetent NFL franchises. The Browns seem to be moving out of that group and the Giants are moving in.
Giants have been more about drama than wins  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 9:23 am : link
for quite some time. If they continue to lose we will probably get some whispers from "inside the building" from some of the beat reporters as to who is taking the fall.
He *can* inherit Judge  
rsjem1979 : 10/14/2021 9:25 am : link
But it shouldn't be a prerequisite for the next GM. All options should be on the table.
Ultimately for me, it’s simple  
Sean : 10/14/2021 9:26 am : link
Let’s take a look at 2006. The Giants finished the year 2-6 after a 6-2 start. They squeaked into the playoffs at 8-8 and lost to Philly in the WC round.

There was a lot of talk that Coughlin needed to go. Rewind BBI back to January 2007, fans were livid Coughlin was returning.

The Giants had a GM opening that year. They did promote from within (Reese), but there was no question about Reese inheriting Coughlin. TC was a lame duck coach going into 2007, it all worked out.
A bit different with Coughlin  
JonC : 10/14/2021 9:31 am : link
as he had built the Jags from scratch and led them to the AFC Championship game. He also had prior history with the Giants being part of the Parcells tree and the SB championships.
Clean house  
thedogfather : 10/14/2021 9:33 am : link
Hire an experienced GM with a proven track record and let him hire his coach and staff. Forcing an inexperienced losing coach like Judge on a new GM makes zero sense. Judge has done NOTHING that says he'll one day be a good HC. So what if we fired McAdoo and Shurmur after two seasons? They were both terrible and lost! You don't keep Judge, another HC who is headed to a losing record, just because you don't want to get rid of him for fear of how it looks! Fact is if any of those three HCs were any good, they would have found a way to a better record and still be here! You keep hiring and firing until you find 'the guy'.

Personally, I don't see Judge, Daniel Jones (injuries, style of play) or Saquon (injuries, upcoming contract) developing into a winning team so I'd hire that next GM and let him clean house and start over.
JoeDon  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2021 9:41 am : link
I think most of us would like to see Mara put someone else in charge of football operations with full autonomy to hire their own GM and coach. But that is a pipe dream. That is about as likely to happen as Mara showing up at Strahan's jersey retirement ceremony in a Cowboys jersey.
So they same geniuses  
Giants73 : 10/14/2021 9:57 am : link
That have trashed Jones and indicated he must go. Are now indicating Judge needs more of a chance because he is young and learning to HC. Jones has at least shown the capability being a highly talented QB. Name one instance where Judge has showed that he has any characteristics of a decent head coach. Which of the following of Judge is false:
1. Poor Game Manager
2. Doesn’t create actual game plan
3. Does not design offensive plays
4. Does not design defensive schemes
5. Makes long time linemen retire rather than play for him.
6. Fake tough
7. Wastes too many roster spots on his bad Special Teams
8. Doesn’t know basic challenge rules
9. Team is undisciplined
10. Team is soft like their coach

Where are the good traits?
Why?  
ZogZerg : 10/14/2021 10:49 am : link
Unless Judge turns things around soon, he doesn't deserve to stay.
RE: So they same geniuses  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2021 10:52 am : link
In comment 15413136 Giants73 said:
Quote:
That have trashed Jones and indicated he must go. Are now indicating Judge needs more of a chance because he is young and learning to HC. Jones has at least shown the capability being a highly talented QB. Name one instance where Judge has showed that he has any characteristics of a decent head coach. Which of the following of Judge is false:
1. Poor Game Manager
2. Doesn’t create actual game plan
3. Does not design offensive plays
4. Does not design defensive schemes
5. Makes long time linemen retire rather than play for him.
6. Fake tough
7. Wastes too many roster spots on his bad Special Teams
8. Doesn’t know basic challenge rules
9. Team is undisciplined
10. Team is soft like their coach

Where are the good traits?


A year and a few games into his second year Jones had not shown that, and we were told we had to have patience with him.

I am disappointed in Judge so far, but there are a lot of games left this year. Patience.
RE: Ultimately for me, it’s simple  
Go Terps : 10/14/2021 11:13 am : link
In comment 15413095 Sean said:
Quote:
Let’s take a look at 2006. The Giants finished the year 2-6 after a 6-2 start. They squeaked into the playoffs at 8-8 and lost to Philly in the WC round.

There was a lot of talk that Coughlin needed to go. Rewind BBI back to January 2007, fans were livid Coughlin was returning.

The Giants had a GM opening that year. They did promote from within (Reese), but there was no question about Reese inheriting Coughlin. TC was a lame duck coach going into 2007, it all worked out.


Gotta be careful about looking into our past to inform current decisions.

I'm curious about what Judge would do with his own quarterback and a roster assembled by competent people, but he has got to show some improvement these last 12 games. No injury excuses, no bullshit.

The culture has to change to one where people are retained because their performance doesn't allow you to fire them, rather than the current culture that gives chance after chance regardless of poor performance.
I don't know how some  
RollBlue : 10/14/2021 11:39 am : link
people argue that Gettelman must go, but lets hang onto Judge??? That makes no sense. The coaching is as bad as the GM. Gettleman needs to go, and so does Judge, as of right now. We'll see if the next 12 weeks does anything to chance that assessment.
RE: If you believe in Judge...  
GiantTuff1 : 10/14/2021 11:40 am : link
In comment 15412701 bw in dc said:
Quote:
he should select his GM.

If not, the next HC should select his GM.

I want the GM to have a reporting line to the HC.


This...
RE: RE: So you let Judge pick the GM  
GiantTuff1 : 10/14/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15412858 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?

Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?



This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.

If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.

I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.


1000% this...

I think Judge should have a say with who the new GM is, even if it's not Abrams or O'Brien... They both agree they are a package deal together. Restart the timeline and give them 3 years. Then we start to measure results on the same schedule.

Otherwise, continue operating with this half assed approach and as Terps so eloquently put you are trapped in the Mara house of horrors disaster machine where all the fun house mirrors will reflect a new patsy every other year.

Instead, the GM and coach should be a tandem, then you know whether the "program" is working.... Isn't building a program what we're supposed to be doing here? A program is not a mishmash of one GM and one coach, it's a singular vision that originates from one source and that should be Joe Judge, so he should have authority to pick his people... Isn't building a program what was agreed upon? It's certainly not what's been happening. They have the guy's hands tied behind his back.

In New England, Belichick IS the vision... There's no GM firing him, or coming in on a different schedule to sideswipe his vision. It's being done exactly as he wants because he's calling the shots. That's what makes that New England system work, and if it wasn't working it would be easy to see that BB is not the answer.

Try it out with Judge with giving him his GM pick. We can't get any worse than we've gotten, try something new for God's sake. There is nothing but upside in the clarity it will bring on whether Judge's vision for his program is working or not.
I don't think the optics would be poor  
santacruzom : 10/14/2021 12:02 pm : link
to other potential head coaches because of the circumstances. If Judge is the 3rd head coach fired after only 2 seasons but the firing is conducted by a new GM, I imagine most coaches would separate that from the circumstances surrounding McAdoo and Shurmur. And I imagine a bunch of coaches interested in the position would completely understand why those guys were fired in the first place.

My main concern about one piece inheriting another is that it affords the front office more excuses or more incentive to just keep on their path -- i.e., the ol' "Okay we were 4-13 again, but let's see what happens when _______ gets to work with the ________ he wants!"
RE: RE: RE: RE: So you let Judge pick the GM  
GiantTuff1 : 10/14/2021 12:04 pm : link
In comment 15412946 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15412881 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


In comment 15412858 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?

Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?



This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.

If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.

I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.



Outside of his press conferences, what do you like about Judge? Granted it is still early, but this year he has seemed unfocused during games and his teams seem unprepared and undisciplined.

I was high on Judge coming into this season and know it is still early in his second year. But man this team does not come across as one that is well coached.



I don't get the sense that this is an unprepared team each week. I sense he's hard working and, probably more importantly, smart. If it doesn't work out here I expect he'll be successful somewhere else.

The sense I do get is that he coaches like someone who doesn't trust his players to execute, and like someone who knows he's entering almost every game undermanned. I think this roster is horrible and he knows it. Further I think there is a good chance the talk about Gettleman and him working together is PR bullshit. I can't imagine Gettleman working well with anyone, particularly when his back is to the wall.

Judge inherited a lot of horseshit assembled by Gettleman: Jones, Barkley, offensive line, no edge rushers. This roster as currently comprised could only be constructed by a complete fool who is completely out of touch with the modern game. I don't get that vibe off Judge. I'd like to see him working with a roster assembled by him in conjunction with a competent GM and not a slob.

I wonder very much if Judge knows the predicament he inherited and is just waiting out Gettleman's tenure. If Gettleman "retires" after this season and we see a change at quarterback and Barkley traded, I think that will be confirmation that these past two years the Giants have been a house divided.


Excellent post.
RE: Mara needs to make 1 of 2 decisions  
GiantTuff1 : 10/14/2021 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15413060 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
1. Commit to Judge, involve him in the new GM search so he can pick someone he "mesh's" with. If he does this, Judge needs to stay for more than just one more year even if we lose, you don't let him pick a GM and fire him in a year.

2. Commit to hiring a GM that has 100% decision making which includes whether to keep Judge or move on. You can't force Judge on the person but you also shouldn't mandate he fire him. If this is the situation I'd like to see the GM have total decision making power on the next coach without Mara/Tisch involvement.


Reasonable. I vote for 1.

The program that Mara shouted to the heavens he wanted Judge to build, he hasn't even been allowed to start it yet. Give him his shot, there is nothing worse that can happen from where we are at right now.
Nobody knows who is actually making decisions  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 12:51 pm : link
and who has the last say. It is all opinions.

Who decided that the WCO was the direction to go and why?
When did measurables become more important than football players?
Who decided to move to a 3-4 and why? Why is the secondary such a high priority?
What is the Patriot Way, the Process and how are they different and better than the Giants way when they won?
What does Judge need to field a team that can challenge first for divisions?

Just some questions.

Parcells always won because his had certain corps beliefs. The Giants had beliefs at one time. TC brought it back.

Somewhere something changed. That needs to be addressed and corrected in unison from Mara down to the equipment manager.

You don't hire a football tree. You hire someone with beliefs that are still as important today as decades ago. Adjustments yes but certain simple traits always will apply and give you a chance. It is exceptionally hard to win in the NFL but no reason you can't field teams that consistently make the other team earn it.

Just draft better players to start and build within the box to the perimeter.

Maybe Jones is/is not a FCQB. Plenty of QB's who were not true "franchise" have won as well. Sometimes you have to win with what you have and compensate elsewhere. Maybe you get lucky along the way.
What coach hires the gm  
Giants73 : 10/14/2021 1:42 pm : link
Let alone a shitty coach. That is a terrible idea. Judge stinks, the team stinks. I like what Gettleman has done with the roster. I think they are a couple edge picks and a hard nosed Change a pace RB from being a playoff team. But at this point, it has all turned into a dumpster fire. Part of a GMs job is finding a good HC. Which DG has not done, even if it has to do with the meddling of Mara. Judge has clearly shown he is incompetent, and doesn’t have any of the skills or traits of a good coach. Basically is just trying to copy what he saw good coaches do. Only problem is those good coaches actually know the Xs and Os. Find a way to keep the new O line coach and sh!t can the whole org.
A new GM should get to decide it  
AnnapolisMike : 10/14/2021 2:13 pm : link
But also have to provide rationale for dismissing the head coach and moving in a different direction. A new GM will be tasked with fixing what is broken.
RE: RE: RE: So you let Judge pick the GM  
compton : 10/14/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15413247 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15412858 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:


Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?

Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?



This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.

If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.

I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.



1000% this...

I think Judge should have a say with who the new GM is, even if it's not Abrams or O'Brien... They both agree they are a package deal together. Restart the timeline and give them 3 years. Then we start to measure results on the same schedule.

Otherwise, continue operating with this half assed approach and as Terps so eloquently put you are trapped in the Mara house of horrors disaster machine where all the fun house mirrors will reflect a new patsy every other year.

Instead, the GM and coach should be a tandem, then you know whether the "program" is working.... Isn't building a program what we're supposed to be doing here? A program is not a mishmash of one GM and one coach, it's a singular vision that originates from one source and that should be Joe Judge, so he should have authority to pick his people... Isn't building a program what was agreed upon? It's certainly not what's been happening. They have the guy's hands tied behind his back.

In New England, Belichick IS the vision... There's no GM firing him, or coming in on a different schedule to sideswipe his vision. It's being done exactly as he wants because he's calling the shots. That's what makes that New England system work, and if it wasn't working it would be easy to see that BB is not the answer.

Try it out with Judge with giving him his GM pick. We can't get any worse than we've gotten, try something new for God's sake. There is nothing but upside in the clarity it will bring on whether Judge's vision for his program is working or not.


Why are you going to let a failing HC who is on the hot seat choose the next GM? Judge has maybe one more season to prove himself so you don't let a guy like that make long term decisions for the team.

Firing DG and retaining JJ delays rebuild for a year  
bcinsd : 10/14/2021 5:26 pm : link
They're not gonna turnover roster if JJ is still coach. He has to play to win in 2022; he's not part of a rebuild.

So either this team needs to turn over its roster or not. If you are happy with how the roster is built and think that we're on the brink of improving then why fire DG either? If you don't like the talent, why delay the rebuild and handicap your new GM right from the start? Who is even gonna want to be GM in that setup for failure?
Plenty of QB's who were not true "franchise" have won as well  
arniefez : 10/14/2021 5:34 pm : link
Nonsense. Is plenty 3 in the last 30 years? Name more than 3.
I like what Gettleman has done with the roster  
arniefez : 10/14/2021 5:35 pm : link
I'm sure you do. So does the rest of the NFL.
If I owned the team  
Thegratefulhead : 10/14/2021 5:49 pm : link
I would fire Gettleman immediately. He isn't long for this anyway and it would put the entire team on notice. Anyone drafted by him better fucking play their ass off for the rest of the year.

Be clear why you are firing him.

Complete and total failure of roster building.

Hire an outside firm to evaluate every single process and position this company has.

Implement the changes they recommend.

Hire a GM that understands the processes they recommend(IE. Younger and analytically focused.)

Headhunt, pay them double what they are making.

Spare no fucking expense in finding the new GM.

and last but most importantly.

Get the fuck out of the way.
RE: I like what Gettleman has done with the roster  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15413722 arniefez said:
Quote:
I'm sure you do. So does the rest of the NFL.


Here’s four in twenty. Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, Foles. How many Franchise QB’s have won Super Bowls on the second contract? 4 for a total of 7 Super Bowls of which 4 are by Brady. So 13 years are won by non Franchise QB’s or FC’s on their 1st contract. Brady makes it sound better.

So maybe it’s more practical to find a QB you can with and build a better team around them.
RE: Plenty of QB's who were not true  
chuckydee9 : 10/14/2021 6:50 pm : link
In comment 15413719 arniefez said:
Quote:
Nonsense. Is plenty 3 in the last 30 years? Name more than 3.


Part of this problem is that you define Franchise QB based on them winning SB.. Once they win suberbowl then they are considered so by this logic it'll be very hard to find a non-franchise QB who has won a superbowl.. you can't count the QBs who became franchise QB because they were SB champions.. You have to say were they franchise QB at the start of the season.. meaning.. in 2001 Tom Brady wasn't a franchise QB.. Heck noone considered Eli Franchise till he won in 2007..
Chucky  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2021 7:13 pm : link
Super Bowls are won by very good teams usually elite in a couple areas with the lines of scrimmage positions more so than not.

What history tells me is build your team to win and find a QB capable of winning with.

This “Frandhise QB” concept has gone too far imo. Most times teams give that big second contract and the result produces nice regular season teams that’s exposed playoff time or doesn’t have the depth to sustain injuries. You also lose other quality players.

I think the NFL will more and more go to being more conservative assessing QB’s who get the big money.
RE: Chucky  
chuckydee9 : 10/14/2021 9:36 pm : link
In comment 15413789 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Super Bowls are won by very good teams usually elite in a couple areas with the lines of scrimmage positions more so than not.

What history tells me is build your team to win and find a QB capable of winning with.

This “Frandhise QB” concept has gone too far imo. Most times teams give that big second contract and the result produces nice regular season teams that’s exposed playoff time or doesn’t have the depth to sustain injuries. You also lose other quality players.

I think the NFL will more and more go to being more conservative assessing QB’s who get the big money.


Agreed a 100%.. hence my point that more teams have won without franchise QB than we typically count.. I hope NFL execs are smart enough to understand that outside of 5 qbs or so.. none of them are worth excessive money...
The reason to get rid of Gettleman  
Giants73 : 10/14/2021 9:58 pm : link
Is the tie to the Saquon pick. Nothing good or bad about the way he plays or how healthy he is. The agent will have more power getting a higher contract than with any other GM. Depending on what he is going to ask for the GM has to be able to show he is willing to let him walk. RB money for another team signing one is a lot less than a second contract from his drafted team.
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