I keep seeing the point made about HC/GM needing to be on the same schedule. I don’t see this as the case for a few reasons:
1. I think it would look very poorly to potential head coaches if Judge is shit canned after two seasons. If the THIRD straight head coach is fired after two seasons or less, other coaches take notice of that. Add in the fact that Judge was hired to be a program builder and first time head coach, I think it is a bad look to fire him so soon. Also consider that he inherited an older GM on the hot seat, inherited a QB which he did not draft & dealt with Covid in his first year.
2. Why does an outside GM need to be tied together with Judge? Let’s say a young executive is hired from the outside, he would clearly be hired to be the GM for hopefully at least 10 years. If Judge does poorly in 2022, this new GM would have influence on the next head coach anyway. He would have a longer leash than Judge, which is typical for GM’s. Let’s take a look at the Cardinals:
Steve Keim is viewed as one of the better GM’s right now. He was hired as GM after coming through the organization in 2013. This was the same year Bruce Arians was hired as head coach.
-Was Keim removed from the position when Arians retired? No.
-Was Keim removed from the position when Steve Wilks was one & done? No.
Keim is now on his third coach and the team is winning.
Gettleman is 70 and on his 4th season as GM. His record is 16-37. He should go, he’s had sufficient time. Judge is only on year 2.
My point is, if Mara hires a GM outside (let’s say Ryan Poles for example), I don’t see the harm in keeping Judge another year. The new GM would outlast him anyway.
Sadly, as long as John is making the ultimate decisions and Chris is making the ultimate personnel recommendations, none of the rest matters. It will just be rinse and repeat.?
This. The Mara family are inept period
Quote:
In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?
Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?
This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.
If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.
I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.
Outside of his press conferences, what do you like about Judge? Granted it is still early, but this year he has seemed unfocused during games and his teams seem unprepared and undisciplined.
I was high on Judge coming into this season and know it is still early in his second year. But man this team does not come across as one that is well coached.
I don't get the sense that this is an unprepared team each week. I sense he's hard working and, probably more importantly, smart. If it doesn't work out here I expect he'll be successful somewhere else.
The sense I do get is that he coaches like someone who doesn't trust his players to execute, and like someone who knows he's entering almost every game undermanned. I think this roster is horrible and he knows it. Further I think there is a good chance the talk about Gettleman and him working together is PR bullshit. I can't imagine Gettleman working well with anyone, particularly when his back is to the wall.
Judge inherited a lot of horseshit assembled by Gettleman: Jones, Barkley, offensive line, no edge rushers. This roster as currently comprised could only be constructed by a complete fool who is completely out of touch with the modern game. I don't get that vibe off Judge. I'd like to see him working with a roster assembled by him in conjunction with a competent GM and not a slob.
I wonder very much if Judge knows the predicament he inherited and is just waiting out Gettleman's tenure. If Gettleman "retires" after this season and we see a change at quarterback and Barkley traded, I think that will be confirmation that these past two years the Giants have been a house divided.
Sadly, as long as John is making the ultimate decisions and Chris is making the ultimate personnel recommendations, none of the rest matters. It will just be rinse and repeat.?
You just painted a no hope scenerio. So why do you keep following this team.
I don’t think so. If they rally for 7 wins I’d agree, but Mara knows the fans will revolt if GM is promoted from within.
The Giants waste timeouts because they can't get plays in regularly. The team makes mental mistakes all game. Last week they lost their composure. Those are things that shouldn't happen if a team is well coached and prepared.
I don't blame the losing on him directly. This roster is bad and won't win many games because we have less talent than most teams we will line up against. But I have yet to see the smart, tough team gutting it out that he preached he was going to create.
God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.
As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).
2. Commit to hiring a GM that has 100% decision making which includes whether to keep Judge or move on. You can't force Judge on the person but you also shouldn't mandate he fire him. If this is the situation I'd like to see the GM have total decision making power on the next coach without Mara/Tisch involvement.
I agree completely. I just have an issue firing Judge after 2 years like the previous two HC’s. When Mara retained Gettleman, this is the bed he made. DG is in year 4 and deserves to go.
God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.
As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).
Agree with a President. The issue is you have more Mara's in the equation this time. Not sure some of the Mara's will want John keeping his role and the others are ousted. Chris could say well I will take your role then John. Maybe I can pick better HC's.
God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.
As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).
Start at President? You know that is John Mara, right?
Quote:
but would they want him is the question.
I agree completely. I just have an issue firing Judge after 2 years like the previous two HC’s. When Mara retained Gettleman, this is the bed he made. DG is in year 4 and deserves to go.
Judge and the players need to turn this season around, and demonstrate they're not a bunch that's in over their heads as Shurmur and his staff were. Otherwise, there will be blood as they're headed for another 3-4 win season.
DG has done a poor job building the roster, he should get the boot. But, elevating Abrams is a non-starter for me.
It's a mess.
Some will say that doesn't mean much since the NY Giants publicly support everyone like they did Daniel Jones during the last offseason. Except those comments have also included some qualifier phrases like "this is a big year for Jones" and "takes 3 years for QBs" and the like. Jones is playing better this year which is good, but he is far more likely to be changed out than Judge.
Judge is learning how to be a Head Coach. He never was, and with that comes some bumps. I think he realizes his roster wasn't all that good to start the season, so he pressed some and also tried to rely moreso on his veteran Defense to back him up. Except those decisions have back-fired on him early in this season. Better, more disciplined play by the players will not only make Judge press less but it will make him look more like what we all saw a year ago.
Giants need to find a smart, aggressive GM that sees things in same manner Judge does in forming a new team for the future. Still too many positions that need better talent and a deeper desire to not lose.
Quote:
Let's not forget Pete Roselle's intervening and coercing the Maras, placing George Young, an "outsider" as GM. Later Ernie Accorsi, another outsider came in. Both had difficulty earlier (anyone remember the fan reaction when Phil Simms was drafted out of Moorehead State?). How many fans wanted Scott Bruner to be the QB; not Simms? I recall a number of fans were not pleased with what the Giants gave the Chargers for Eli Manning. Both QBs struggled early in their careers and then what?
God forbid Abrams! We need an outsider, preferably start at President and let the new president select his GM. IMHO, that is the only way to right this sinking shipwreck.
As concerns Judge and Jones, the new President and his appointed GM should be entitled to make that decision, not the Maras. For the record, I am not against retaining either for at least another year (with Barkley as well until his fifth year is up or he is traded).
Start at President? You know that is John Mara, right?
Yep! I am with Go Terps on this one.
Does removing Gettleman truly change anything? Some lime to think so, however, if Abrams remains in tact with the new GM and has as much input, and also Chris Mara keeps his title on the team (Senior VP of player personnel), how much power will the GM have?
Some of the greatest coaches in the history of the NFL have served the Giants without having the opportunity to implement their full program here. Lombardi, Landry, Belichick, Payton have all implemented programs that achieved SB level of success but were not able to establish themselves here. Philly couldn't handle more of the kind of success that Andy Reid gave them, but the truth of the matter is that Tom Brady is showing that coaching can only do so much, the players have to produce. This is why you cannot evaluate the success of a coach or the program they implement by looking only at the wins/losses. Like any other position you MUST define the success criteria and measure performance against it.
That approach is too sophisticated for the mob mentality of the fan base in general, so ownership has to weigh the evaluation of the coach/gm vs. the cries for blood from the mob to determine whether or not it's time to move on.
Although many "fans" here think we have terrible ownership that must go, we are the only franchise who has won a super bowl in the 80's, 90's, 00's, and 10's. While it has admittedly been too long between championships for my liking, I am more inclined to support the owners as they try to find the right people to build a winning program/culture. I think they know what a winning program looks like and have far better measures of individual leadership performance than what we get from our regular glimpses on game and media days.
The last time that was the case George Young chose Jim Fassel. Ernie was ignored when Coughlin was hired and John and Chris Mara have picked the last 3 coaches. I think they chose the guy Gettleman wanted when they hired Shurmer. I think Gettleman was much less of an influence when Judge was hired.
Just my opinion and it hasn't mattered the team is still in the bottom 5 of the NFL and going to lose double digits for the 5th year in a row. At a quick glance no team in the Super Bowl era has had more than 6 double digit losing seasons in a row. The Browns, Lions and Jaguars done it. Those 3 teams have been the poster children for incompetent NFL franchises. The Browns seem to be moving out of that group and the Giants are moving in.
There was a lot of talk that Coughlin needed to go. Rewind BBI back to January 2007, fans were livid Coughlin was returning.
The Giants had a GM opening that year. They did promote from within (Reese), but there was no question about Reese inheriting Coughlin. TC was a lame duck coach going into 2007, it all worked out.
Personally, I don't see Judge, Daniel Jones (injuries, style of play) or Saquon (injuries, upcoming contract) developing into a winning team so I'd hire that next GM and let him clean house and start over.
1. Poor Game Manager
2. Doesn’t create actual game plan
3. Does not design offensive plays
4. Does not design defensive schemes
5. Makes long time linemen retire rather than play for him.
6. Fake tough
7. Wastes too many roster spots on his bad Special Teams
8. Doesn’t know basic challenge rules
9. Team is undisciplined
10. Team is soft like their coach
Where are the good traits?
1. Poor Game Manager
2. Doesn’t create actual game plan
3. Does not design offensive plays
4. Does not design defensive schemes
5. Makes long time linemen retire rather than play for him.
6. Fake tough
7. Wastes too many roster spots on his bad Special Teams
8. Doesn’t know basic challenge rules
9. Team is undisciplined
10. Team is soft like their coach
Where are the good traits?
A year and a few games into his second year Jones had not shown that, and we were told we had to have patience with him.
I am disappointed in Judge so far, but there are a lot of games left this year. Patience.
There was a lot of talk that Coughlin needed to go. Rewind BBI back to January 2007, fans were livid Coughlin was returning.
The Giants had a GM opening that year. They did promote from within (Reese), but there was no question about Reese inheriting Coughlin. TC was a lame duck coach going into 2007, it all worked out.
Gotta be careful about looking into our past to inform current decisions.
I'm curious about what Judge would do with his own quarterback and a roster assembled by competent people, but he has got to show some improvement these last 12 games. No injury excuses, no bullshit.
The culture has to change to one where people are retained because their performance doesn't allow you to fire them, rather than the current culture that gives chance after chance regardless of poor performance.
If not, the next HC should select his GM.
I want the GM to have a reporting line to the HC.
This...
Quote:
Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?
Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?
This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.
If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.
I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.
1000% this...
I think Judge should have a say with who the new GM is, even if it's not Abrams or O'Brien... They both agree they are a package deal together. Restart the timeline and give them 3 years. Then we start to measure results on the same schedule.
Otherwise, continue operating with this half assed approach and as Terps so eloquently put you are trapped in the Mara house of horrors disaster machine where all the fun house mirrors will reflect a new patsy every other year.
Instead, the GM and coach should be a tandem, then you know whether the "program" is working.... Isn't building a program what we're supposed to be doing here? A program is not a mishmash of one GM and one coach, it's a singular vision that originates from one source and that should be Joe Judge, so he should have authority to pick his people... Isn't building a program what was agreed upon? It's certainly not what's been happening. They have the guy's hands tied behind his back.
In New England, Belichick IS the vision... There's no GM firing him, or coming in on a different schedule to sideswipe his vision. It's being done exactly as he wants because he's calling the shots. That's what makes that New England system work, and if it wasn't working it would be easy to see that BB is not the answer.
Try it out with Judge with giving him his GM pick. We can't get any worse than we've gotten, try something new for God's sake. There is nothing but upside in the clarity it will bring on whether Judge's vision for his program is working or not.
My main concern about one piece inheriting another is that it affords the front office more excuses or more incentive to just keep on their path -- i.e., the ol' "Okay we were 4-13 again, but let's see what happens when _______ gets to work with the ________ he wants!"
Quote:
In comment 15412858 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?
Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?
This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.
If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.
I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.
Outside of his press conferences, what do you like about Judge? Granted it is still early, but this year he has seemed unfocused during games and his teams seem unprepared and undisciplined.
I was high on Judge coming into this season and know it is still early in his second year. But man this team does not come across as one that is well coached.
I don't get the sense that this is an unprepared team each week. I sense he's hard working and, probably more importantly, smart. If it doesn't work out here I expect he'll be successful somewhere else.
The sense I do get is that he coaches like someone who doesn't trust his players to execute, and like someone who knows he's entering almost every game undermanned. I think this roster is horrible and he knows it. Further I think there is a good chance the talk about Gettleman and him working together is PR bullshit. I can't imagine Gettleman working well with anyone, particularly when his back is to the wall.
Judge inherited a lot of horseshit assembled by Gettleman: Jones, Barkley, offensive line, no edge rushers. This roster as currently comprised could only be constructed by a complete fool who is completely out of touch with the modern game. I don't get that vibe off Judge. I'd like to see him working with a roster assembled by him in conjunction with a competent GM and not a slob.
I wonder very much if Judge knows the predicament he inherited and is just waiting out Gettleman's tenure. If Gettleman "retires" after this season and we see a change at quarterback and Barkley traded, I think that will be confirmation that these past two years the Giants have been a house divided.
Excellent post.
2. Commit to hiring a GM that has 100% decision making which includes whether to keep Judge or move on. You can't force Judge on the person but you also shouldn't mandate he fire him. If this is the situation I'd like to see the GM have total decision making power on the next coach without Mara/Tisch involvement.
Reasonable. I vote for 1.
The program that Mara shouted to the heavens he wanted Judge to build, he hasn't even been allowed to start it yet. Give him his shot, there is nothing worse that can happen from where we are at right now.
Who decided that the WCO was the direction to go and why?
When did measurables become more important than football players?
Who decided to move to a 3-4 and why? Why is the secondary such a high priority?
What is the Patriot Way, the Process and how are they different and better than the Giants way when they won?
What does Judge need to field a team that can challenge first for divisions?
Just some questions.
Parcells always won because his had certain corps beliefs. The Giants had beliefs at one time. TC brought it back.
Somewhere something changed. That needs to be addressed and corrected in unison from Mara down to the equipment manager.
You don't hire a football tree. You hire someone with beliefs that are still as important today as decades ago. Adjustments yes but certain simple traits always will apply and give you a chance. It is exceptionally hard to win in the NFL but no reason you can't field teams that consistently make the other team earn it.
Just draft better players to start and build within the box to the perimeter.
Maybe Jones is/is not a FCQB. Plenty of QB's who were not true "franchise" have won as well. Sometimes you have to win with what you have and compensate elsewhere. Maybe you get lucky along the way.
Quote:
In comment 15412850 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
Then fire Judge and let the GM he hired hire a different coach?
Year one the GM is acquiring talent and signing contracts to win now and fit Judge’s system. In his second year he has to start over. Is his first year just a mulligan?
This is the issue. Firing Gettleman and keeping Judge propagates the cycle, and lines Judge up as the next patsy for Mara to fire. You still potentially will have a GM and coach with diverging agendas and timelines.
If you want to keep Judge, the move is then to either elevate Abrams or O'Brien with the knowledge that they sink or swim together.
I like Judge, but he's in major danger of being collateral damage in the Mara disaster machine.
1000% this...
I think Judge should have a say with who the new GM is, even if it's not Abrams or O'Brien... They both agree they are a package deal together. Restart the timeline and give them 3 years. Then we start to measure results on the same schedule.
Otherwise, continue operating with this half assed approach and as Terps so eloquently put you are trapped in the Mara house of horrors disaster machine where all the fun house mirrors will reflect a new patsy every other year.
Instead, the GM and coach should be a tandem, then you know whether the "program" is working.... Isn't building a program what we're supposed to be doing here? A program is not a mishmash of one GM and one coach, it's a singular vision that originates from one source and that should be Joe Judge, so he should have authority to pick his people... Isn't building a program what was agreed upon? It's certainly not what's been happening. They have the guy's hands tied behind his back.
In New England, Belichick IS the vision... There's no GM firing him, or coming in on a different schedule to sideswipe his vision. It's being done exactly as he wants because he's calling the shots. That's what makes that New England system work, and if it wasn't working it would be easy to see that BB is not the answer.
Try it out with Judge with giving him his GM pick. We can't get any worse than we've gotten, try something new for God's sake. There is nothing but upside in the clarity it will bring on whether Judge's vision for his program is working or not.
Why are you going to let a failing HC who is on the hot seat choose the next GM? Judge has maybe one more season to prove himself so you don't let a guy like that make long term decisions for the team.
So either this team needs to turn over its roster or not. If you are happy with how the roster is built and think that we're on the brink of improving then why fire DG either? If you don't like the talent, why delay the rebuild and handicap your new GM right from the start? Who is even gonna want to be GM in that setup for failure?
Be clear why you are firing him.
Complete and total failure of roster building.
Hire an outside firm to evaluate every single process and position this company has.
Implement the changes they recommend.
Hire a GM that understands the processes they recommend(IE. Younger and analytically focused.)
Headhunt, pay them double what they are making.
Spare no fucking expense in finding the new GM.
and last but most importantly.
Get the fuck out of the way.
Here’s four in twenty. Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, Foles. How many Franchise QB’s have won Super Bowls on the second contract? 4 for a total of 7 Super Bowls of which 4 are by Brady. So 13 years are won by non Franchise QB’s or FC’s on their 1st contract. Brady makes it sound better.
So maybe it’s more practical to find a QB you can with and build a better team around them.
Part of this problem is that you define Franchise QB based on them winning SB.. Once they win suberbowl then they are considered so by this logic it'll be very hard to find a non-franchise QB who has won a superbowl.. you can't count the QBs who became franchise QB because they were SB champions.. You have to say were they franchise QB at the start of the season.. meaning.. in 2001 Tom Brady wasn't a franchise QB.. Heck noone considered Eli Franchise till he won in 2007..
What history tells me is build your team to win and find a QB capable of winning with.
This “Frandhise QB” concept has gone too far imo. Most times teams give that big second contract and the result produces nice regular season teams that’s exposed playoff time or doesn’t have the depth to sustain injuries. You also lose other quality players.
I think the NFL will more and more go to being more conservative assessing QB’s who get the big money.
What history tells me is build your team to win and find a QB capable of winning with.
This “Frandhise QB” concept has gone too far imo. Most times teams give that big second contract and the result produces nice regular season teams that’s exposed playoff time or doesn’t have the depth to sustain injuries. You also lose other quality players.
I think the NFL will more and more go to being more conservative assessing QB’s who get the big money.
Agreed a 100%.. hence my point that more teams have won without franchise QB than we typically count.. I hope NFL execs are smart enough to understand that outside of 5 qbs or so.. none of them are worth excessive money...