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Some very odd and distrubing defensive stats for the Giants

Now Mike in MD : 10/14/2021 12:22 pm
I was listening to a podcast on the Giants defense, and these stats were discussed:

1) Despite playing 2 high safeties the 5th most in the NFL, we rank we have gone from the 7th best on giving up explosive pass plays through the first five weeks of 2020 to the 21st. Notably, by the end of 2020, we actually ranked 3rd best so the devoluition is even worse if you consider where were were at the end of the year. Isn't one of the express purposes of Cover 2 to eliminate these exact plays. SO we are playing more Cover 2, we sign Adoree, Mckinney is in his 2nd year, and yet we are giving up significntly more chunk plays than last year. How did this happen? Maybe the answer is below in piont 2;

2) In 2020, we ranked 10th in pressure rate. This year? 30th. How? To me, there are only two real differences. LW is not the force he was last year. He's good, but not 2020 good. The other is Carter and Ximines coming back. I'm not saying Coughlin and Cam Brown are not flawed players, but I some them in the backfield a hell of a lot more frequently than Carter/Ximines.

I just don't get it.
yea  
djm : 10/14/2021 12:29 pm : link
this is why i don't think it's fair to end any argument with the defense being overrated last season. IT was so much better than this and by virtually any metric was above average. Now it's hot trash. WTF.

I want to fight this defense. I know i'd lose but I hate it so much.
Edge  
Toth029 : 10/14/2021 12:30 pm : link
Guys not getting home and the DB's mostly not playing well. Especially Safety and Bradberry hasn't been lock down.

I don't know why they let Fackrell go so easy. He's better than Ximines easily.
To your point, I watched some all 22 of all of this year's games  
bLiTz 2k : 10/14/2021 12:31 pm : link
(about as much as I could stomach)...and there really have been some serious breakdowns in coverage.

Specifically McKinney has been flat out bad in the deep half role. He's taking terrible angles and making mistakes left and right.

Yes the corners haven't been great, the pass rush stinks, but they're not even doing what they did well last year.

I said it before the cowboys game, and I'll reiterate - I'd love for the Giants to just go back to a primarily cover 3, single high look. What they're doing isn't working...move mcKinney and Love around, zone drop them into those throwing lanes (curl flats and hooks), and let Ryan stay covering the middle 3rd zone.

I get they WANT to play 2 man, but if the safeties are out for position, and the CB thinks they have help it just doesn't work.
RE: Edge  
Now Mike in MD : 10/14/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15413293 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Guys not getting home and the DB's mostly not playing well. Especially Safety and Bradberry hasn't been lock down.

I don't know why they let Fackrell go so easy. He's better than Ximines easily.



Good point. I forgot about Fackrell. Big big loss
RE: To your point, I watched some all 22 of all of this year's games  
Now Mike in MD : 10/14/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15413297 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
(about as much as I could stomach)...and there really have been some serious breakdowns in coverage.

Specifically McKinney has been flat out bad in the deep half role. He's taking terrible angles and making mistakes left and right.

Yes the corners haven't been great, the pass rush stinks, but they're not even doing what they did well last year.

I said it before the cowboys game, and I'll reiterate - I'd love for the Giants to just go back to a primarily cover 3, single high look. What they're doing isn't working...move mcKinney and Love around, zone drop them into those throwing lanes (curl flats and hooks), and let Ryan stay covering the middle 3rd zone.

I get they WANT to play 2 man, but if the safeties are out for position, and the CB thinks they have help it just doesn't work.


Combine that we us playing a lot of "light boxes" and getting gashed in the run as well, and it's all a recipe for disaster. It's odd. It seems like between the Cover 2 and the light boxes, Graham is really trying to mask deficiencies in the secondary. Wasn't that supposed to be out strength?
.......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 10/14/2021 12:35 pm : link
I'd be curious to see what the Gmen's investment in linebacker looks like in comparison to other 3-4 defenses.

Outside of Martinez and Ojulari this year, it's just a bunch of mid to late round jags.

The teams drafts like they're still a 4-3 defense, with emphasis on dline. The playmakers in a 3-4 are on the mid level.
Fakrell is an unsung element  
GiantTuff1 : 10/14/2021 12:36 pm : link
of that D last year too. A guy who has a nose for the QB and a savvy vet presence.
What is most disturbing is:  
Regular Coffee : 10/14/2021 12:36 pm : link
Patrick "Tim Lewis" Graham and Joe "Play Not To Lose" Judge
RE: RE: To your point, I watched some all 22 of all of this year's games  
bLiTz 2k : 10/14/2021 12:43 pm : link
In comment 15413308 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15413297 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


(about as much as I could stomach)...and there really have been some serious breakdowns in coverage.

Specifically McKinney has been flat out bad in the deep half role. He's taking terrible angles and making mistakes left and right.

Yes the corners haven't been great, the pass rush stinks, but they're not even doing what they did well last year.

I said it before the cowboys game, and I'll reiterate - I'd love for the Giants to just go back to a primarily cover 3, single high look. What they're doing isn't working...move mcKinney and Love around, zone drop them into those throwing lanes (curl flats and hooks), and let Ryan stay covering the middle 3rd zone.

I get they WANT to play 2 man, but if the safeties are out for position, and the CB thinks they have help it just doesn't work.



Combine that we us playing a lot of "light boxes" and getting gashed in the run as well, and it's all a recipe for disaster. It's odd. It seems like between the Cover 2 and the light boxes, Graham is really trying to mask deficiencies in the secondary. Wasn't that supposed to be out strength?


Exactly. The usage of more cover 3 last year vs the cover 2 this year did a few things -

1. It automatically made it harder to run as there was an additional defender closer to the Los.

2. It led to more turnover worthy plays of the defenses because they were creative with the zone blitz/disguising who was rushing vs dropping. (Example see the first cowboys game - Fackrell INT).

This defense can work if the players play better, but they're not.
Change the scheme  
Rick in Dallas : 10/14/2021 12:46 pm : link
are Judge and Graham incapable of making changes??
I like Love but he SUCKS as a deep safety  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2021 1:46 pm : link
.
Tomlinson--they all said he did the dirty work and made them better  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 10/14/2021 5:25 pm : link
Leonard Williams not getting to the quarterback for sacks like last season can directly be tied to this.
Screw the stats  
Thegratefulhead : 10/14/2021 5:56 pm : link
We watch.

They can't stop anyone when it matters.

Our defense is on it's hands and knees flagging naked in the last two minutes of the half or game.
RE: Tomlinson--they all said he did the dirty work and made them better  
Toth029 : 10/14/2021 6:20 pm : link
In comment 15413712 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:
Quote:
Leonard Williams not getting to the quarterback for sacks like last season can directly be tied to this.


Talkin' Giants made a note how most of Williams's sacks came when it was just he and BJ Hill.

Also, when Austin Johnson is in, they don't have a bad run defense. Loss of Tomlinson has no bearing on the current defense. The absence of Martinez, bad OLB play, mediocre play by Safeties and Bradberry not being a lock down like he was last year.
RE: Tomlinson--they all said he did the dirty work and made them better  
bLiTz 2k : 10/14/2021 6:35 pm : link
In comment 15413712 jeffusedtobeonwebtv said:
Quote:
Leonard Williams not getting to the quarterback for sacks like last season can directly be tied to this.


Like 8.5 or 9 of Williams sacks came with Tomlinson off the field...that's a hot take that gets passed around that the numbers just don't back up.
Ximines, Carter and Beal  
jeff57 : 10/14/2021 6:57 pm : link
Third round Gettleman flops.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/14/2021 7:04 pm : link
Defense is the biggest reason this team is 1-4 right now. It has sucked. No other way to put it.
Everyone wants to blame Tomlinson not being here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2021 7:09 pm : link
Because it's the easiest to understand explanation even though it's not correct.

It's a harder truth to swallow that the roster wasn't great to begin with, everyone is playing worse than last year, and a very important player got hurt.
Also, downplaying the role of pass rush  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2021 7:14 pm : link
In the evaluation of the secondary isn't acceptable.

No secondary could function under these conditions. The rules of the sport favor offense.

If Bradberry has to play like a top 5 CB without fail and no margin for error for 18 weeks, it's not a well-run defense.

No secondary in the NFL works with a pass rush this toothless.
TTH  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/14/2021 7:15 pm : link
It feels like five decades ago that we were trotting out Strahan, Osi, Tuck, AND Kiwi all @ the same time. Hell, I'd settle for ONE of them right now.
RE: TTH  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2021 7:56 pm : link
In comment 15413796 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
It feels like five decades ago that we were trotting out Strahan, Osi, Tuck, AND Kiwi all @ the same time. Hell, I'd settle for ONE of them right now.
and people on this site will tell you that management did a decent job with this roster even though LW on his best day isn't close to a game-changer like Justin Tuck.
RE: RE: TTH  
Angel Eyes : 10/14/2021 8:14 pm : link
In comment 15413837 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15413796 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


It feels like five decades ago that we were trotting out Strahan, Osi, Tuck, AND Kiwi all @ the same time. Hell, I'd settle for ONE of them right now.

and people on this site will tell you that management did a decent job with this roster even though LW on his best day isn't close to a game-changer like Justin Tuck.

Skillset and body-type wise, Leonard Williams is more of a Keith Hamilton or Leonard Marshall.
RE: RE: TTH  
bLiTz 2k : 10/14/2021 10:11 pm : link
In comment 15413837 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15413796 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


It feels like five decades ago that we were trotting out Strahan, Osi, Tuck, AND Kiwi all @ the same time. Hell, I'd settle for ONE of them right now.

and people on this site will tell you that management did a decent job with this roster even though LW on his best day isn't close to a game-changer like Justin Tuck.


I don't think anyone is happy with the roster..but you're take makes it seem as if the defensive scheme and coaching are completely absolved.
They're not  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2021 10:37 pm : link
However, what defense built on secondary play can do well when they are bottom two in the league in pass rush.

It is a football truth that rushing the passer has a direct benefit to secondary play.

It is also a football truth that no matter how much you pay your DBs, it doesn't mean they can cover as long as it takes. The top corners in the league will look worse because they are exposed. Under the rules as they sit, pass defense is extremely difficult. It's even harder when you can't rush the passer.

They chose to build the defense on a highly paid veteran secondary without a pass rush. It's flawed. It only worked last year with their key players having career-best seasons at the same time.
McKinney  
cosmicj : 10/14/2021 11:03 pm : link
Notice he was no longer the starter v Dallas. Love took his place.
Fackrell  
cosmicj : 10/14/2021 11:06 pm : link
Signed a 1yr contract worth $1,5mm. This is what Toilolo received. I don’t think Fackrell is an all pro or anything but he helped our team last year, something which Toilolo had never done.

So why let him go?

The construction of this team is appalling. I literally think I could do it better myself and I am just an untutored fan.
RE: They're not  
bLiTz 2k : 10/15/2021 10:51 am : link
In comment 15413995 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
However, what defense built on secondary play can do well when they are bottom two in the league in pass rush.

It is a football truth that rushing the passer has a direct benefit to secondary play.

It is also a football truth that no matter how much you pay your DBs, it doesn't mean they can cover as long as it takes. The top corners in the league will look worse because they are exposed. Under the rules as they sit, pass defense is extremely difficult. It's even harder when you can't rush the passer.

They chose to build the defense on a highly paid veteran secondary without a pass rush. It's flawed. It only worked last year with their key players having career-best seasons at the same time.


Sure I agree, but by the same token it is the responsibility of the coaches to put who is actually on the field right now in the best positions to succeed. So far, I don't think that's happened in 2021. I also happen to like Judge and Graham very much, and they have an opportunity to build a sustainable program with better roster construction.

The big question I have for them, is that they clearly went into the season with a plan to play more man coverage and attack the LoS than they did last year.

Theyve tried it, and it hasn't worked because a few key players aren't playing well. I want to see the adjustments, and not have to wait until mid November to see them.

As a fan of the Xs and Os, there are plays being left on the field with the group we have.
At what point does Ximenes...  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/15/2021 10:58 am : link
make a single play? He's a ghost out there.
RE: At what point does Ximenes...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2021 2:09 pm : link
In comment 15414383 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
make a single play? He's a ghost out there.


Probably never.

Let's remember that he played football for ODU, not big time college ball. He was another toolsy project "pass rusher".
Those are disturbing stats indeed  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2021 3:24 pm : link
although not odd.

The entire Defense is playing poorly, both veterans and young guys, highly paid and lower paid. Makes no difference...
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