I want to preface this by signing that I was a big fan of the signing. In theory, he's exactly the type of alpha WR that Jones and the team needs. Unfortunately, his career has been plagued by injuries and between the hamstring and now the knee the injury bug is again rearing its ugly head. Between the emergence of Toney, the restructuring of Shepard I wonder if they would have signed Judon or kept dalvin if they had a gimmie.
Agreed on that. I always take WRs with a grain of salt. The Giants haven't really had one stick long term since Toomer. Nicks, Cruz, S. Smith, Beckham all had injuries and flamed out (Beckham's was behavioral as well, obviously)
And yes there was a facet that didn't give the universal praise (there always is), but that minority group often had to respond to why they are always just pessimists and can't they see the arrow is pointing up. Or a common line that you heard this offseason but not much now...
"...if you can't see that this roster is better, I don't know what to tell you."
Understood - agreed, I think that many mistakenly compared these additions to 2005. The huge difference was that much of the Giants core was already in place. Eli was still a question mark coming off his rookie year, but the team had talent already. I don't think you can use FA to build a core.
And yes there was a facet that didn't give the universal praise (there always is), but that minority group often had to respond to why they are always just pessimists and can't they see the arrow is pointing up. Or a common line that you heard this offseason but not much now...
"...if you can't see that this roster is better, I don't know what to tell you."
Some other greatest hits:
"Division is ours to lose!"
"Who in the division is clearly ahead of the Giants?"
"Ten wins easy"
I'm not disputing Parsons is a significantly better player, but they did get Olujari in the 2nd. Who does have 1.5 more sacks than Parsons.
I believe what you are saying is correct. But I believe we also need an infusion of talent. Toney, after two games, has shown he has the capabilities of being one of the more talented players we have had. Granted, 2 games. And if we can hit the Chicago pick - thats 2 talented players.
Cant argue with that.
Actually, only Covid year brings Golliday into real question as injury prone. If that year cannot be considered an outlier, I do not know what qualifies.
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the Giants have/had bigger positional needs than WR, and that #11 pick could've addressed a big one. They got cute imv.
I'm not disputing Parsons is a significantly better player, but they did get Olujari in the 2nd. Who does have 1.5 more sacks than Parsons.
Still early, but I don't think there's any way Ojulari winds up as good as Parsons, who has already shown an ability to take over games and be a real problem. I like very few of DG's early picks, been consistent in that regard.
He isn't very reliable as an ILB.
So that begs the question if they did choose Parsons... would he be usdd differently like how Quinn uses him now?
Instead, they traded down a couple times. They got Toney in 1 and Olujari in 2. They have an extra 1, 3 (which is the Dolphins and a top 70 pick now, and 4 in next years draft as well. (Plus they got a 5th last year to trade up for Robinson)
I have no complaints about that either, and personally, I would prefer the latter.
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the Giants have/had bigger positional needs than WR, and that #11 pick could've addressed a big one. They got cute imv.
I believe what you are saying is correct. But I believe we also need an infusion of talent. Toney, after two games, has shown he has the capabilities of being one of the more talented players we have had. Granted, 2 games. And if we can hit the Chicago pick - thats 2 talented players.
Cant argue with that.
I think there were better prospects to be had, and the Giants continue to draft for need. It drives me nuts because you often wind up with a less talented team, and look where they are ... struggling to build an identity, the expensive, thin defense has regressed, key players can't stay healthy. They're lost trying to build a good roster.
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In comment 15414278 JonC said:
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the Giants have/had bigger positional needs than WR, and that #11 pick could've addressed a big one. They got cute imv.
I'm not disputing Parsons is a significantly better player, but they did get Olujari in the 2nd. Who does have 1.5 more sacks than Parsons.
Still early, but I don't think there's any way Ojulari winds up as good as Parsons, who has already shown an ability to take over games and be a real problem. I like very few of DG's early picks, been consistent in that regard.
I don't think anyone has contended Ojulari will be as good as Parsons. We are talking the #50 overall pick vs. #12.
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your post to mention the overwhelming sentiment that was spoken about here.
And yes there was a facet that didn't give the universal praise (there always is), but that minority group often had to respond to why they are always just pessimists and can't they see the arrow is pointing up. Or a common line that you heard this offseason but not much now...
"...if you can't see that this roster is better, I don't know what to tell you."
Some other greatest hits:
"Division is ours to lose!"
"Who in the division is clearly ahead of the Giants?"
"Ten wins easy"
My personal favorite...
"The Giants are a playoff team until they are not"
Usually new staffs come in and after a year they assess where they need players. 2005 they get Plax, Pierce, McKenzie who all have huge impacts. This past year Galloday, Jackson, Ruddolph, etc. which nets very little return to date.
The big surprise to me this year is that next year drafts has to be all defense at every level.
I think there were better prospects to be had, and the Giants continue to draft for need. It drives me nuts because you often wind up with a less talented team, and look where they are ... struggling to build an identity, the expensive, thin defense has regressed, key players can't stay healthy. They're lost trying to build a good roster.
Can't really argue much over that. It looks like they were banking on the defense from last year and the OL developing from last year.
I just wish the FO just cut it losses with some guys and start seeign what the younger guys we have. Shepard, Engram, Solder are guys that just dont do it for me and probably will never impact a winning team. Yet we keep thinking they will turn it around and/or stay healthy.
Not good.
That said, many of us here expressed concerns about his injury history. But he was the best FA WR available, and we needed a WR, so I get it, but Corey Davis is looking pretty good right now, and with a struggling rookie QB.
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
He isn't very reliable as an ILB.
So that begs the question if they did choose Parsons... would he be usdd differently like how Quinn uses him now?
I think he's best suited to playing on the line end, 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB, he can drop into coverage, play some MIKE, he's multiple.
Look for a silver lining...
I will say, the drops are the most disappointing thing about KG. I expected better. His catch % is pretty bad, much lower than BBI whipping boy Engram.
No. You take the trade with the Bears to get the extra picks, including their #1 next season.
As far as Golladay is concerned, I agree the Giants don't have "buyer's remorse," because as you note they wanted him for a long time. But that means as you also said that they were essentially bidding against themselves.
I would not have signed Golladay, Jackson, Booker, or Rudolph. I'm not sure about Williams. He's getting paid more than he's worth, but the deal is short, and I still say that he and Lawrence would be more effective if we had decent OLBs who could rush and set the edge.
The question is what is your philosophy about how to build a team. The Giants too often believe that signing expensive FAs is a critical component to success. I disagree, unless a team really is one or two players away from being a legitimate SB contender. I would otherwise build the team through the draft. The Giants of course have also compounded their poor FA decisions with equally bad drafting, which is why we are the worst team by record since 2017.
Agreed, but the team is so bad that fans need something and someone to be excited about, and he has demonstrated a lot of the electrifying talent he showed in college. I didn't want Toney because of his injury history, one year of production, and off the field incidents. But people calling him a bust before he even played was equally ridiculous. I can say that I am happy with his performance while also acknowledging that he is not ready to be inducted into the HOF.
No, I do not trust this regime. I assume that one way or another DG is gone after this season, and that another dreadful year finally prompts the Maras to hire a GM from outside the organization.
But even if the current regime remains, I would still have made the trade with the Bears. There wasn't anybody at #11 who would have prevented me from doing so.
Really good when he's healthy.
Not healthy enough of the time.
Not sure you can be disappointed when the guy gives you EXACTLY what he's been historically.
Agreed with the last sentence. I can't imagine the same regime drafting a QB this year and not sticking with Jones. A new regime and all bets are off, even in what appears to be a weak QB class.
Depends on where the picks fall and who is available obviously, but I would expect the Giants to go edge and OL with their two 1sts this year.
Funny how that works.....
We need to see something that demonstrates football identity, more players winning their one on one battles, key guys staying healthy and showing signs of breaking through the ice, more tangible football results even if they're struggling to win games. It's been a long time waiting, even someone as football patient as I typically am is frustrated with the product on gamedays.
I'm looking for something that warrants faith restored.
He has a solid contract with $40m guaranteed which is far less than a bunch of other WR's that got paid before him. Health is why I didn't want him and yeah, here we are. That said it sounds like a 1-2 week thing and we stink anyway so it kinda doesn't matter for 2021.
I think the potential with him and Toney is undeniable. Really hope we get a good glimpse of that this year.
This is how I see it. Shep is probably gone next year.
Toney, slayton, KG is a really nice WR corp. Pair that group with barkley and a NEW TE or Two and the offense has the weapons.
I think focus this offseason is fix the OL. Defense needs an edge in the worst way. My guess is edge and OL heavy draft
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is out of control around here.
There has to be some reason for wanting to watch this disaster. Toney doesn't move the needle enough for me to carve out time but if it does for others.....
i disagree. Toney looks pretty good when you consider the time he missed. He is very good with the ball in his hands. thats undeniable. i think its nice to have a young weapon to be excited about.
it allows for us to let shep go and save some $$ and use it elsewhere
the offense sucked by design weeks 1-3
his career hasn't been plagued by injuries, stop running with that narrative. he's a wr they all get dinged up.
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In comment 15414245 JonC said:
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
He isn't very reliable as an ILB.
So that begs the question if they did choose Parsons... would he be usdd differently like how Quinn uses him now?
I think he's best suited to playing on the line end, 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB, he can drop into coverage, play some MIKE, he's multiple.
parsons is a DL in the NFL. he is LOST in coverage. he was a flawed prospect, lets not act like he is ray lewis. its early but parsons isnt really "multiple" at least not good at multiple spots. i dont think he is fluid enough in coverage to play linebacker unless used as a rush edge in a 34
This is how I see it. Shep is probably gone next year.
Toney, slayton, KG is a really nice WR corp. Pair that group with barkley and a NEW TE or Two and the offense has the weapons.
I think focus this offseason is fix the OL. Defense needs an edge in the worst way. My guess is edge and OL heavy draft
We continue to overrate Slayton. He had a promising rookie year, but has not progressed at all. Disappears for large portions of games, and drops too many. Even as a #3 WR, we need to do better.
the offense sucked by design weeks 1-3
his career hasn't been plagued by injuries, stop running with that narrative. he's a wr they all get dinged up.
He missed 17 games in 4 years. That is not "dinged up".
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This is how I see it. Shep is probably gone next year.
Toney, slayton, KG is a really nice WR corp. Pair that group with barkley and a NEW TE or Two and the offense has the weapons.
I think focus this offseason is fix the OL. Defense needs an edge in the worst way. My guess is edge and OL heavy draft
We continue to overrate Slayton. He had a promising rookie year, but has not progressed at all. Disappears for large portions of games, and drops too many. Even as a #3 WR, we need to do better.
im not overrating him at all...he is a #3 WR but really the 4th option in the offense...i think you can do worse as a #4 option in your offense and a #3 WR
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In comment 15414291 Toth029 said:
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In comment 15414245 JonC said:
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
He isn't very reliable as an ILB.
So that begs the question if they did choose Parsons... would he be usdd differently like how Quinn uses him now?
I think he's best suited to playing on the line end, 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB, he can drop into coverage, play some MIKE, he's multiple.
parsons is a DL in the NFL. he is LOST in coverage. he was a flawed prospect, lets not act like he is ray lewis. its early but parsons isnt really "multiple" at least not good at multiple spots. i dont think he is fluid enough in coverage to play linebacker unless used as a rush edge in a 34
He's not Ray Lewis, but I don't know what game(s) you watched. The talent is there, and if he plays more on the edge the better.
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In comment 15414303 JonC said:
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In comment 15414291 Toth029 said:
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In comment 15414245 JonC said:
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
He isn't very reliable as an ILB.
So that begs the question if they did choose Parsons... would he be usdd differently like how Quinn uses him now?
I think he's best suited to playing on the line end, 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB, he can drop into coverage, play some MIKE, he's multiple.
parsons is a DL in the NFL. he is LOST in coverage. he was a flawed prospect, lets not act like he is ray lewis. its early but parsons isnt really "multiple" at least not good at multiple spots. i dont think he is fluid enough in coverage to play linebacker unless used as a rush edge in a 34
He's not Ray Lewis, but I don't know what game(s) you watched. The talent is there, and if he plays more on the edge the better.
he is a quick and looks solid but imo he is strictly a pass rusher. he is okay at the point of attack but LOST in coverage. my point was, i dont think he is as multiple as you think. that being said, yes, we could have used him BUT with shep always hurt, slayton average at best and knowing KG could miss time, give me Toney and the extra picks including a first rounder this year.
That does seem obvious now, but my point is, the overreactions from one day to the next. 2 weeks ago, Golliday was a fantastic get, Gettleman got the rug taken out from under him when Philly swooped in and took Smith.
Clearly, the Adoree Jackson signing isn't going great, but I didn't mind the tradeoff for Tomlinson. Would we have been that much better off?
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
That does seem obvious now, but my point is, the overreactions from one day to the next. 2 weeks ago, Golliday was a fantastic get, Gettleman got the rug taken out from under him when Philly swooped in and took Smith.
Clearly, the Adoree Jackson signing isn't going great, but I didn't mind the tradeoff for Tomlinson. Would we have been that much better off?
also, something to remember, EVERYONE felt good about giants defense. many would say we need an edge but thtas really it. that unit was VERY good last year and with adding jackson, most of us felt very good about the unit. I am sure the front office did and hence the leaning away from defense in round 1. personally, i felt they need to go offense. i never expected defense to be this bad. it barely makes sense
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is out of control around here.
There has to be some reason for wanting to watch this disaster. Toney doesn't move the needle enough for me to carve out time but if it does for others.....
Not a criticism, but watching the Giants has been a family gathering since 56, we ve evolve to now l. Where it s me, my sons, and grandkids
Never thought of it as carving out time to watch them. Certainly it s more fun when they win, but watching the Giants are a big part of our entertainment
I know there s some who feel like you, but it s amazing how many others, like us, keep watching investing time and energy, it s kind of what helps make being a Giants fan special
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
That does seem obvious now, but my point is, the overreactions from one day to the next. 2 weeks ago, Golliday was a fantastic get, Gettleman got the rug taken out from under him when Philly swooped in and took Smith.
Clearly, the Adoree Jackson signing isn't going great, but I didn't mind the tradeoff for Tomlinson. Would we have been that much better off?
If I were GM, I would've spent the $ on Reddick or Ngakoue and directly try to address a serious weakness. A weakness that is killing this team on a weekly basis. Their edge choices leave a ton to be desired, and while Ojulari looks somewhat promising, I still think they need to do better picking Edge talent.
I really don't think a team was out there bidding against the Giants for Adoree, certainly not at the level paid to secure his services.
Keep throwing resources at CB, and very little at Edge.
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In comment 15414245 JonC said:
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Parsons, I am annoyed about it.
That does seem obvious now, but my point is, the overreactions from one day to the next. 2 weeks ago, Golliday was a fantastic get, Gettleman got the rug taken out from under him when Philly swooped in and took Smith.
Clearly, the Adoree Jackson signing isn't going great, but I didn't mind the tradeoff for Tomlinson. Would we have been that much better off?
If I were GM, I would've spent the $ on Reddick or Ngakoue and directly try to address a serious weakness. A weakness that is killing this team on a weekly basis. Their edge choices leave a ton to be desired, and while Ojulari looks somewhat promising, I still think they need to do better picking Edge talent.
I really don't think a team was out there bidding against the Giants for Adoree, certainly not at the level paid to secure his services.
Keep throwing resources at CB, and very little at Edge.
i agree on edge talent evals however, yiadom was a MAJOR weak link in our defense last year. otherwise, we were a VERY good unit. I think the jackson signing was really nice. hindsight is perfect vision but at the time, i think most liked it and felt it was good to land a #2 CB.
They had an opportunity to get better at Edge and didn't bother, it irks me.
This post should be pinned at the top of BBI for the remainder of DG's tenure, however long that may be.
Even though Jones will probably not pan out, he still as easily the 2nd best QB in that draft. The problem is we just developed talent and cohesiveness around him that can only be matched by the Jets.
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as DG tends to build a football roster not unlike a fan would; reactionary, expensive UFAs with known warts be damned, draft by best available at one position, hey it's fantasy football!
This post should be pinned at the top of BBI for the remainder of DG's tenure, however long that may be.
lol.