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Discussion: Watching other teams

Keaton028 : 10/15/2021 12:14 pm
I am curious, and looking for some interesting viewpoints. Watching other teams play around the NFL, I want to know, just for fun, what schemes or philosophies you enjoy watching and would like to see the Giants incorporate? For instance, the run game scheme the 49ers had in their Super Bowl season a couple of years ago, as well as the Broncos run game zone blocking scheme of the late ‘90’s, are schemes I wish the Giants could center around. Plug in any back, and they’d have a good game.

Conversely, which schemes or philosophies do you hope to never see the Giants use full-time?

Open-ended question, just looking for general discussion during another dreary season.
Zone running  
Eli2020 : 10/15/2021 12:40 pm : link
is probably the hardest schemes to implement. It's also the one that's the most in demand with a limited supply of coaches that can actually implement it.

(A big reason Sean McVay keeps losing coordinators.)

As for what other teams do in general, I really don't see much of a difference between the Giants and an average team like the Raiders or Steelers.

The only thing is that those teams score more often than not when in the redzone while the Giants just don't.

And as for the defense, all of them throughout the NFL are getting demolished. It's not just the Giants. Even look at the Bucs against the Cowboys, which has a top-3 defense, for reference. Heck, the Eagles sucked last night and were a couple plays away from hanging 30 on them.

The NFL, like the NBA, has evolved into scoring as much as possible with tempo. You have to be aggressive almost all of the time because the opportunity presented by success has significantly outweighed the loss factor of field position.

When offenses can score at will, field position becomes much less of a factor.
Watching others teams  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2021 12:52 pm : link
Makes me envious.

When I watch Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Murray... I am more envious of the talent than I am the schemes of other teams.
Good comment  
Keaton028 : 10/15/2021 12:52 pm : link
And point taken about the Zone-blocking scheme. I was a RB in high school and always loved watching good running teams work in the 80’s and 90’s. It depresses me that it feels like the Giants havent been able to succeed at running the ball consistently since the Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw era.

Defenses may be getting demolished, but it feels like some teams have defenses that remain mostly good. I’m thinking of the Steelers, Ravens, Niners, Bears.... what is it about their philosophies in which these teams can consistently field a competent defense year in and year out?
I'd like to see Bill Parcells philosophy of taking a risk...  
TheEvilLurker : 10/15/2021 12:54 pm : link
Once in a while. If we have smart coaches, I think they can find spots where it is doable, even with the players we have.
Rub routes for WR  
Mike from SI : 10/15/2021 12:59 pm : link
(which of course is the euphemism for a pick play). There are some teams that use them regularly and I feel like the Giants do not (although I do not watch the all-22 so I could be wrong).

I also think our DL doesn't stunt as much as other teams, but there are several biases there (such as the Giants OL has not handled them well the last few years, and also our pass rushers aren't good so maybe it's not worth it).
Also  
Mike from SI : 10/15/2021 1:02 pm : link
every single play that CAR and NO use to get the ball to CMC and Kamara as receivers in space should be in the Giants playbook for Saquon. There should be an intern watching every last one of those plays and drawing them up for us.
Mike  
Keaton028 : 10/15/2021 1:05 pm : link
Good comment. I am wondering if the Giants see concepts such as these and employ them once in awhile versus teams that commit to these concepts all the time. I feel like time and again I watch rub routes work with the Packers, because they are built for that and commit to it.

I just wonder if the Giants have a philosophy they are attempting to build around and commit to, or do they just try to employ a mishmash of concepts and see what sticks? I’m not a huge fan of the RPO, for instance, but it seems to garner results for the Giants. Yet, there are games the team hardly uses this concept.

I’d really like to see leadership that commits to a philosophy and builds around it to succeed.
RE: Zone running  
Brian in Hoboken : 10/15/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15414564 Eli2020 said:
Quote:
is probably the hardest schemes to implement. It's also the one that's the most in demand with a limited supply of coaches that can actually implement it.

(A big reason Sean McVay keeps losing coordinators.)

As for what other teams do in general, I really don't see much of a difference between the Giants and an average team like the Raiders or Steelers.

The only thing is that those teams score more often than not when in the redzone while the Giants just don't.

And as for the defense, all of them throughout the NFL are getting demolished. It's not just the Giants. Even look at the Bucs against the Cowboys, which has a top-3 defense, for reference. Heck, the Eagles sucked last night and were a couple plays away from hanging 30 on them.

The NFL, like the NBA, has evolved into scoring as much as possible with tempo. You have to be aggressive almost all of the time because the opportunity presented by success has significantly outweighed the loss factor of field position.

When offenses can score at will, field position becomes much less of a factor.


I agree with this in the sense of scoring in the red zone. I am not smart enough to know if the lack of scoring in the red zone is an issue with scheme, or if it is a direct result of Daniel Jones having an issue making reads and decisive decisions in a much more compact and crowded area. I fear it is the latter, but I truly hope not.
When I watch teams  
shadow_spinner0 : 10/15/2021 2:21 pm : link
everyone seems to be fast and open. Only guy on this team who gets open is Toney. Also Barkley should be used like Kamara where everytime he catches the ball, there is space. I prefer whatever Kyle Shanahan is running or even what McVay does.
Shadow  
Keaton028 : 10/15/2021 2:26 pm : link
As do I. I mentioned the 49ers run schemes. I like what the Packers do with Aaron Jones and Adams. Of course, not every WR is Devante Adams, but I’d love to see Golladay featured like that.
Can we switch to a WCO please  
shadow_spinner0 : 10/15/2021 2:29 pm : link
McVay/Shanahan's offenses are built on the old Mike Shanahan ZBS/WCO scheme that features a lot of PA and roll outs.

Reid offense comes from the old Holmgren WCO but has evolved to incorporate a lot more college concepts, especially recently (Reid with Pat, Pederson with Wentz and especially Foles).


With Barkley, Reid would use Barkley like he did Westbrook while Barkley may have better rushing yards with McVay. Either way their offenses are much better than what we do now. Any of their offense coaches available?
The West Coast Offense  
arniefez : 10/15/2021 2:47 pm : link
should really be called the Yankee Stadium offense because Fran Tarkington invented it out of necessity when he was on the Giants and they never had a line that could block.

Bill Walsh formalized it when he was in Cincinnati but any of the old timers here that sat through the Yankee Stadium days know what I'm talking about.

As far as the OP goes the problem for the Giants is that they're followers. Joe Judge doesn't have a "scheme" in his coaching DNA and the person he chose or was picked for him (that's what I believe) is living 15 years in the NFL past. If Judge survives this year, he has to find a bright cutting edge OC or he'll be gone at the end of next year.

In the old days when Tarkington was QB you were lucky if you could see 3 NFL games in a weekend. The Cosell highlights on Monday Night Football were just about all you got to see of the rest of the NFL until the playoffs. Now we have access to every game. Most teams can run screen passes, bubble screens and scheme their WRs open in man to man or zone multiple times a game.

The Giants ran a screen this year in the Atlanta game that was the most well executed screen I'd seen from them since the Fassel/Kerry Collins days (screens passes were not Eli's forte - sometimes they worked but they always looked awkward and threw the ball with almost no touch and nose down). Of course Hernandez was downfield it got called back. There are good screen teams that win with it 2 or 3 times a game. I don't understand why the Giants are so far behind and never catch up to teams like the 49ers or the Rams or Dallas or the Eagles when it comes to having an offensive identity that is difficult to stop.
So basically, Keaton  
bradshaw44 : 10/15/2021 3:01 pm : link
You want us to run the Shannahan playbook? Because both of those teams were run by the Shannahan's. They are known for putting together strong running attacks and making lesser backs look good.
Motion and misdirection  
rsjem1979 : 10/15/2021 3:08 pm : link
Go watch a replay of the TD pass to Ezekiel Elliot last week and let me know if the Giants do anything like that. Jet motion left, fake to Elliot right, look left, throw to a wide open Elliot who cartwheels into the end zone.

That kind of stuff is all over the league, which is why you see other teams getting skill players in space and scoring in the red zone while Jason Garrett is running plays from Tecmo Bowl.
The one I m most interested in is  
joeinpa : 10/15/2021 4:54 pm : link
The winning.
i felt really good about watching our team  
mattlawson : 10/15/2021 8:37 pm : link
against new orleans
I'd like  
darren in pdx : 10/15/2021 8:56 pm : link
to see the team have their skill players healthy together for more than a handful of plays and actually score in the red zone.
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