Does anyone else feel like the takes on Justin Herbert are revisionist history? I feel like I remember that he was supposed to be the best QB in the draft that Jones was taken in BUT I feel like that draft was seen as a weak QB draft even with him in it. I feel like there were some question marks with him. Now everyone's saying how the Giants reached for Jones in a weak QB draft, well with Herbert it was supposed to be a weak QB draft as well and he was a bit of a question mark. He wasn't a can't miss prospect and I don't remember him even being a guy like Josh Allen who was insanely high ceiling.
The issue, IMV, was Herbert (1) restrained by the Cristobal's putrid offense and relying too much on his first read and (2) was he too robotic as a QB...
Those were reasonable concerns, but from a skill set standpoint, Herbert towered over Jones.
The move was to draft Herbert and let the chips fall where they may. We would have a bright future today if we did that.
Herbert's junior year, he was seen as a Heisman favorite and potential #1 overall pick, and really didnt have a good year, so he came back. Even during his senior year, he had a couple really bad games. With that said...he was a MUCH better NFL prospect than DJ. Gettleman has a Senior Bowl fetish...and DJ looked good there, that's why he's a Giant.
But goodness, watching him now, it is like he was made for the NFL. He's a perfect fit in every regard.
If it was that obvious he was going to be this good, then literally every team in the top 5 - CIN, WAS, DET, NYG, MIA - should have drafted him.
Maybe you could still argue Burrow over Herbert to some degree. And the Giants are so dumb that even if you gave them a time machine to see what Herbert became, they still probably would've passed on him.
These are generally bad organizations in the top 5, but they all passed on him, so there's a point to saying the he wasn't some kind of can't miss prospect.
If it was that obvious he was going to be this good, then literally every team in the top 5 - CIN, WAS, DET, NYG, MIA - should have drafted him.
Maybe you could still argue Burrow over Herbert to some degree. And the Giants are so dumb that even if you gave them a time machine to see what Herbert became, they still probably would've passed on him.
These are generally bad organizations in the top 5, but they all passed on him, so there's a point to saying the he wasn't some kind of can't miss prospect.
Look at the QB draft Class for 2019 vs 2020; that's why he went 3rd. Per Sy's preview:
2019
Grade: 81
Summary: Fourth year junior entry that was the main guy for Ohio State for just one season, although he got his feet wet initially in 2016. Haskins played behind all-time great (collegiately) JT Barrett. While he had to wait his turn, Haskins came in prepared and took full advantage of the starting role in 2018. He threw for 50 touchdowns and nearly 5,000 yards with his best football being played down the stretch. Haskins two standout traits; accuracy and intelligence. This is a kid that truly understands concepts and understands how to react quickly, swiftly, and efficiently. When it comes to throwing the ball, he rarely misses his target when he throws from a steady position. The issue that popped consistently was a lack of carry over to being under pressure. Haskins is not a good athlete, as he plays heavy-footed and tight-hipped. The lack of fluidity below the waist is a problem and could really impede his progress in the league. He projects as a starter but the fact he started for just one year and shows mechanical problems means he needs to sit for at least a year.
*Throughout the entire pre-draft process, Haskins has always been the guy that I trust the most. Accuracy, decisions, and swagger in big situations are standout traits that I think carry over in to the NFL very well, especially a market like New York. Haskins has a few things that he really needs to clean up, however. His lower body is a mess and he didn�t respond well to productive pass rushes. I also have a few concerns with the fact that Ohio State was loaded with talent all over the place. There are also some concerns with weight management and being professional in his approach off the field. Not a troublemaker at all, but some question if he can change and lead a locker room. I thought that was notable. In the discussion at 6 I�m sure, but another one I would rather hold off on until 17.
NFL Comparison: Ben Roethlisberger / PIT
2: Daniel Jones � Duke � 6�5/221
Grade: 80
Summary: Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn�t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn�t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a �safe� bet to some.
*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That�s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn�t a quick mind here, he doesn�t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
NFL Comparison: Ryan Tannheill / TEN
2020
1. Joe Burrow / LSU / 6’4 – 221
Grade: 87
Summary: Fifth year senior from Athens, Ohio. A two-year starter that took off in 2019, winning the Heisman Trophy and National Championship. A transfer from Ohio State, Burrow’s ascent began at the end of the 2018 season against UCF in the Fiesta Bowl. Fast forward to this past year and Burrow set the college football world on fire with elite performance after elite performance after elite performance. He set an NCAA record with 60 touchdowns and led the country with 5,671 yards. His tools as a thrower are just above average, there are several prospects with a stronger arm. However this goes to reinforce the fact that arm strength is such a small part of evaluating QB play. Burrow has unmatched pocket presence and downfield accuracy. He is exceptionally smart in the film room and on the field. He is a better athlete than anyone thinks. He is a franchise quarterback all the way that should end up in the Pro Bowl at some point early in his career if the supporting cast is there.
2. Tua Tagovailoa / Alabama / 6’0 – 217
Grade: 84
Summary: Junior entry from Ewa Beach, Hawaii. Two-year starter that initially burst on to the scene when he replaced Jalen Hurts in the second half of the 2017 National Championship, where he led the Tide to a come from behind win. In 2018 he confirmed his ceiling, winning the Maxwell Award while earning 2nd Team All American honors. 2019 didn’t quite go as planned, however. Tagovailoa suffered an ankle injury and then a severe hip injury that caused some to ponder if he would ever play again. If the injuries are kept out of the equation that generates his grade, Tua would be approaching the elite 90-point mark. He has lethal accuracy, he is a true competitor that handles pressure situations well, and he knows how to read defenses. The medicals are huge though and he doesn’t show a feel for missing traffic in the pocket. A case can rightfully be made that these injuries are going to pop up in the NFL more and more and because of that, you see the debate at the top of the draft behind Burrow.
3. Justin Herbert / Oregon / 6’6 – 236
Grade: 82
Summary: Senior entry from Eugene, Oregon. Four-year starter that earned Honorable Mention All Pac 12 honors in 2018 and 2019. Also the winner of the Academic Heisman as a senior who scored a 39 on his wonderlic exam, an elite number. Herbert has every single tool. He is massive, he is fast, he has a quick release, and he is really strong. Herbert also has everything you want between the ears when it comes to intelligence, maturity, and leadership qualities. On paper, he may be the ideal quarterback for today’s NFL. The concern here is he never quite put together a consistent level of performance as a passer. His accuracy is a roller coaster and he seemed gun-shy at times. There is still a ways to go here but I think NFL coaches see exactly what they want to work with here.
Now we'll never know what the rankings were for the respective QBs that the Giants had. The biggest criticism was that the Giants probably should have gone QB in 2018, didn't. And then in a weak draft class in 2019 instead of taking a best available type, they panicked, reached for the best QB in that draft when this was a multi-year rebuild. You don't need to be in the top 10 to take a draft pick these days, you just need capital to give you the flexibility to get the guy you want.
He could have waited another year to draft a quarterback, but evidently they didn’t want to wait another year to start the rebuild, I don’t blame him
If he had, either Eli would have led them to a place where they might not get a shot at Herbert, or the losing would continue for another year without his replacement on the roster.
It became an easy choice for them because Jones was there.
He could have waited another year to draft a quarterback, but evidently they didn’t want to wait another year to start the rebuild, I don’t blame him
If he had, either Eli would have led them to a place where they might not get a shot at Herbert, or the losing would continue for another year without his replacement on the roster.
It became an easy choice for them because Jones was there.
Not to be snarky, but how do you know this? I never heard any feedback by DG on Herbert.
Herbert was his guy.
Herbert was his guy.
Stop it. If the fans made him pass on the QB he wanted then he is pathetic and unfit for the job. What kind of strategic thinking is that? You don't try to get the ideal QB, you just get a QB right away to shut up the fans. If I found that out and he was working for me, he would be fired that day.
Herbert was his guy.
Again, how do we know this???
The 2018 Eli debacle blew up in Maras face and he wanted to give into the mobs demands.
At least they didnt take Haskins, but if herbert was there he was going to be the guy.
You cant say DG is a bumbling idiot and not think he wasnt going to do something so predictable in an Ernie Arcosi fashion
By comparison, this year Trevor Lawrence's contract was 4 years, $36M.
That's not all. The salary cap in 2011 was $120M. In 2021 it's $182M (down from last year's $198M due to COVID-19).
So Lawrence's $9M AAV is 5% of the salary cap. Bradford's was 10.8%.
The point is that drafting a quarterback high and missing isn't nearly as dangerous as it used to be. The far greater danger is doing what the Giants have done: rationalize performance to justify the investment.
If Jones had been an asshole like Haskins maybe we would have given up earlier and moved on. Maybe we would have been more clear minded when Herbert was sitting there for us to take him.
Instead here we are. Waiting. Overspending on Golladay and Rudolph in the hopes that it will help justify the Jones pick.
"He had to learn a new system in a COVID offseason."
"The OL sucks."
"He has no Barkley."
"Jones gets 2021 as a prove it year."
"He deserves 3 years to develop."
Just throwing away years...
But overall he's been great. He just wasn't this clean, clear top #1 prospect like some make him out to be.
Josh Allen wasn't either. But since he's been the best of the 2018 class, he's the go to for "shoulda" when talking back for the #2 overall. It's easy, even though Josh Rosen was wanted by more fans.
I loved him as a Jr. And wanted him.
I stopped paying attention after drafting Jones.
Herbert did not have a great junior year. His completion % dropped to 59% (was 68% his soph year) and his INTs bumped up to 8.
He came back to Eugene his senior year largely to play with his brother and to get Oregon to the playoffs. There was this sense there was unfinished business. And he actually played much better than his junior year - got his completion % up 67% and was 32/5 TD/INT.
Like I mentioned last night, it was hard to get a sense of his play in Cristobal's pistol offense. Cristobal is a great recruiter, but I think he Xs/Os are a mess on offense.
By comparison, this year Trevor Lawrence's contract was 4 years, $36M.
That's not all. The salary cap in 2011 was $120M. In 2021 it's $182M (down from last year's $198M due to COVID-19).
So Lawrence's $9M AAV is 5% of the salary cap. Bradford's was 10.8%.
The point is that drafting a quarterback high and missing isn't nearly as dangerous as it used to be. The far greater danger is doing what the Giants have done: rationalize performance to justify the investment.
If Jones had been an asshole like Haskins maybe we would have given up earlier and moved on. Maybe we would have been more clear minded when Herbert was sitting there for us to take him.
Instead here we are. Waiting. Overspending on Golladay and Rudolph in the hopes that it will help justify the Jones pick.
"He had to learn a new system in a COVID offseason."
"The OL sucks."
"He has no Barkley."
"Jones gets 2021 as a prove it year."
"He deserves 3 years to develop."
Just throwing away years...
C'mon man. You mock fans for excusing Jones, yet you do the same for Joe Judge. If Judge ain't the guy then years are being wasted on him too. I can't be the only one that sees this major inconsistency.
would at best be struggling as starter for this team.
And more than likely, everyone touting them as being superior would be calling for their heads as starter just like now.
that's why this discussion is pointless. you can't compare how player A performs with a functional team, versus how that player would perform in this mess.
Behind this OL and in this scheme, Herbert would not be the star he is now. He'd be average at best starter.
During the 2019 draft, once the Raiders passed on Josh Allen (edge), that's who I wanted the Giants to take. If they had, then Herbert would be the QB of the Giants.
100%. I know there were some on here that liked him. But there was a ton of talk on here that he wouldn't be successful in the NFL.
The issue, IMV, was Herbert (1) restrained by the Cristobal's putrid offense and relying too much on his first read and (2) was he too robotic as a QB...
Those were reasonable concerns, but from a skill set standpoint, Herbert towered over Jones.
I was so wrong.
Quote:
physical skills were clear - plus-plus arm, could throw on the run, and a great athlete. He certainly bounced back with a good senior year.
The issue, IMV, was Herbert (1) restrained by the Cristobal's putrid offense and relying too much on his first read and (2) was he too robotic as a QB...
Those were reasonable concerns, but from a skill set standpoint, Herbert towered over Jones.
I was positive Herbert was coming out and would be the first QB taken. Loved his talent.
I was so wrong.
That would have made the 2019 draft even more spectacular.
We know Murray was still going #1. So that would have left Herbert right there at #6.
But he couldn't have gone to the Senior Bowl. Wouldn't have been eligible. Which means Gettleman couldn't have fallen in "full bloom love" with him.
Can you imagine that? Gettleman taking Jones over Herbert in the 2019 draft...?!?
What a kick in the balls that would have been...