Ralph Vacchiano
Sun, October 17, 2021, 10:29 PM
A few pull quotes:
"Are the Giants really any better now than they were four years ago? The sad answer is that they might be worse."
"At this point, it is virtually inevitable that the 70-year-old Gettleman will be gone at the end of the season, if Mara even waits that long."
"Nothing has worked, leaving Mara in the painful spot of probably having to blow up his franchise for the second time in four seasons, and maybe to fire a third straight coach after just two seasons on the job. That’s the kind of chaos sowed by the worst franchises in sports."
Link - (
New Window )
I am interested to see if we start shopping players now that the trade deadline is fast approaching.
+1
I’ve been saying this 4 years.
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a la 1978. Otherwise it's a waste of time and we'll be here again in 2 years.
Not happening. There is no Rozelle to step in and force the Maras family to give up control in order to get an up and coming executive who knew what the fuck he was doing. Tisch could make noise, but his instincts are worse than Mara's.
Good luck.
Tisch is the only one who could force the Maras to give up control.
And the cycle continues.
I think you are overrating the talent on D. No edge rushers and the LB's are brutal. If you accept that the corners are good, the safeties have been up and down to say the least.
And that doesn't even scratch the surface on how much the defense occupies on the cap. I think there are going to have to be some painful cuts this offseason that will handicap the cap next year.
Not unlike the offense and the questions on the OL, WRs and Saquon struggling to stay healthy, and Jones long term fit and it's a mess.
Amazing isn't it?
Not unlike the offense and the questions on the OL, WRs and Saquon struggling to stay healthy, and Jones long term fit and it's a mess.
Many overrated everything about 2020. For all of the joy of beating a good Seattle team in their building, with a backup QB no less, the other 5 wins were v teams with a combined record of 28-50-2, all against backup QB's. This was a very bad team last year, but too many overlooked that, including management.
And yet, Sam Beal still holds a roster spot. Hasn't played a game in 2 years, doesn't play specials. We sign DB's off the street who play before he does.
Blowing a 3rd round pick from 3 years ago isn't that big of a deal, but carrying him on the roster when he literally does nothing shows how poor roster management has been.
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Give FK the offense and let someone else take over DC responsibility. We can’t be any worse. It is painful to watch our offense struggle but it’s maddening to see our defense come out in the same scheme every week and get torched without adjusting. I would argue it would be hard to have a gameplan to lose and be this bad. If none of that is the solution, try something! Don’t keep doing the same thing every week. Adapt improvise and overcome. Your way is now proven to not work.
I think you are overrating the talent on D. No edge rushers and the LB's are brutal. If you accept that the corners are good, the safeties have been up and down to say the least.
And that doesn't even scratch the surface on how much the defense occupies on the cap. I think there are going to have to be some painful cuts this offseason that will handicap the cap next year.
They are not world class but likely good enough with the right scheme and coaching to keep things closer.
We do have a lot of cap tied up in just ok players.
The LB situation is puzzling to me. Edge and good LBs would obviously help. This season they have what they have and I would like to see the. Try something different.
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and the front office made the same mistake. They've got big needs across the board at LB, NT, and their DB investments are looking additionally sad in 2021. Add in Graham is really struggling to look competent and opponents are eating his lunch, and there's big problems.
Not unlike the offense and the questions on the OL, WRs and Saquon struggling to stay healthy, and Jones long term fit and it's a mess.
Many overrated everything about 2020. For all of the joy of beating a good Seattle team in their building, with a backup QB no less, the other 5 wins were v teams with a combined record of 28-50-2, all against backup QB's. This was a very bad team last year, but too many overlooked that, including management.
It's why misplaced optimism is dangerous. Despite how badly everyone involved wants to win, choosing denial over serious self-scouting dooms you to failure. You've got to see what's in front of you, decide it's not working, and get working on solutions.
Agreed. You can plausibly argue that his failures in the secondary are an even bigger reason to fire him than those involving the OL and not securing any edge rushers.
IDGAF whether Daniel Jones would have been picked before 17.
It doesn't fucking matter.
Don't pick a running back at 2.
It doesn't fucking matter.
The NFL has left our ownership behind.
They are living in the NFL of 20 or more years ago.
This is NOT changing until we hear:
We are hiring an outside firm to evaluate every single process this company has from scouting to food service. We live leave no stone unturned. We are going to let this outside firm hire a GM and turn the NY Giants into a modern NFL franchise that fans can be proud of.
Most importantly we need them to own their mistakes or this will NEVER be fixed.
We accept full responsibility for the demise of this franchise, it is the fault of ownership.
Mara, you hit rock bottom, this is you going to ownership AA.
You cannot fix the problem until you admit you have one.
You are the problem.
58-92
Your fault.
It's a public trust, a for profit business but privately owned. It's a monopoly. Pretty much every team is owned by egomaniac billionaires using their teams as a play toy. In the Giants case that only applies 50%.
But every organization the size of an NFL team has a culture similar to every business from 100 employees to 100,000 employees.
The Giants were started by Tim Mara in 1925. Tim had two sons Jack the oldest and Wellington. When Tim died Jack and Wellington each inherited 50% of the Giants. Jack had one son Tim J. Mara and Wellington had 11 children. Jack died just before the 1965 season and his 50% was left to Tim J. Mara. Tim J sold his 50% in 1991 to Robert Tisch who died in 2005 and left his 50% to his 3 children. Wellington died in 2055 and left his 50% to his 11 children.
The 3 Tisch owners are each billionaires from their inheritance and own Loews Corp among other holdings. Steve is the Giants chairman and Jonathon is the Giants Treasurer. They do not appear to be involved with the day to day football team and seem to enjoy being billionaire owners from a distance.
The 11 Mara owners own 50% of the Giants from their inheritance. The Giants are their family business. Their only business. The current Mara 11 are the third generation of Giants owners.
The oldest John Mara is the CEO, The 3rd oldest Chris Mara is Senior Vice President of Player Personnel. Susan Mara is the 2nd oldest and her son Tim McDonnell was promoted to Co-Director of Player Personnel in May of 2021.
Dave Gettleman is Senior Vice President and General Manager. In most NFL organizations player personnel falls under the GM who is the primary decision maker on all things on the field or the head of player personnel is the primary decision maker on all things on the field and the GM is more of an administrative/manage the cap position.
The Giants have Kevin Abrams the assistant GM that was assumed to be the person that managed the cap and reported to Gettleman but Abrams was on the Jordan Raanan podcast and said he hasn't been the primary cap person for 3 or 4 years and has two people that work for him that do most of the cap management now and that he's working on being a talent evaluator to position himself for potential GM jobs.
So let's recap the group leading the Giants player acquisition team
CEO - owner
SR VP Player Personnel - owner
SR VP GM
A GM
Co D Player Personnel - owner
Co D Player Personnel
Coaching Staff
If Gettleman is retired/fired which looks inevitable now and the Giants hire a new GM how much authority will that person have? Gettleman was an awful choice. No other NFL team would have hired him as their GM. It seems from public reports the Giants GM has a lot of influence and a loud voice in their team building strategy room but three of the other people in that room own the team so how much actual authority does the GM have? No way for anyone on the outside to know.
Apparently on the post game show yesterday Bob Papa the corporate voice of the NY Giants on their home station asked how do you fix this? So back to corporate culture. The plague of nepotism and cronyism is where an NFL team is no different than any other business. The rot of "this is how we've always done it" is no different than any other business. The third generation ownership challenges are no different than any other business.
In the third generation, there are typically many more family members who would like to work in the company. The cousins have grown up in different households and may have far different styles and points of view. There may be extremes of personality and huge disparities in competency as well as in financial need. There may also be lingering feelings of competitiveness or memories of past injustices carried over from the second generation.
In "family-first" businesses, family needs are primary. Business decisions that might generate family conflict are avoided. Members of the second generation are paid equally and share in all key decisions. Family ownership is zealously guarded and nonfamily managers tend to be regarded as "the help." If the company has a board of directors, it is likely to consist of family members who gather informally, perhaps with an attorney or accountant.
At the other extreme are "business-first" family businesses, which let children who want to work in it know that they must measure up to company norms and values that are above the needs of the family. The children may be told that they can't work in the business unless they are at least as good as professional managers, and that they will be paid for the job they do rather than who they are. In a business-first company, nonfamily members have considerable power and influence. The company is likely to have a board of directors with people from outside the company on it that meets regularly in formal sessions.
It appears from the outside the Giants have operated as a "family-first" business since Ernie retired and ended the George Young corporate culture that had been eroding since Wellington stepped back before he died and and John Mara became much more involved in the day to day.
So to Bob Papa's question how do you fix this? Either John Mara has an epiphany and retires his brother along with Gettleman and asks Tim McDonnell to relinquish his position as Co-Director of Player Personnel and the three of them use their league contacts to hire a football president a modern day George Young and own the team instead of run the team.
I think the odds of Powerball are better.
I've rooted for the Giants since I was 6 years old, I'm almost 70 now and there's been 4 great highs but they've been out numbered by way more of the deepest lows. I know most of you totally disagree with this and that's fine. This is just my way of dealing with a losing decade when I don't have many left.
I'll be rooting for the Giants and the Bears to lose every game they play except when the Giants play the Bears and then I'll decide who I want to win based on draft position. I get that most of you can't think that way. But losing and disasters have been the only thing that creates change with Mara family. The bigger the disaster the greater the change. Lose them all. Bring on the change.
The Challenge of the Third Generation - ( New Window )
I am in my mid 60's and feel exactly the same way
Thank you for stating it so eloquently.
The Giants of the 80's were known for big, powerful LB's that could run and hit. The secondary hammered you. The OL was tough, efficient that battled. TE's were as tough as our lineman. Win or lose rarely did a team not have a physical battle that you had to earn.
I really am losing site of what the Giants are. It started around 2010 but thankfully they were able to hoist another trophy before it unraveled. So something changed and I think you have to solve that before changes are made. To me it simply is the Giants do not win the team battle of physicality from the players to the coaches. Don't see things changing till that is restored.
The depths of what has been reached here under this current regime is stunning.
I probably still won't (root for losses), but enjoyed your post nevertheless...
Great post Arnie, but watch for the apologists jumping out to say "we don't know what Chris Mara does!", as if that is a positive spin for this franchise.
The fact that he is the de facto head of the personnel dept is a problem. We have had a personnel deficit for a decade now, we've changed the dept over, but one constant still remains, and he is untouchable.
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it seems painfully clear that yet another long rebuild is on the horizon for this team.
I don't know how "long" it needs to be. Arizona was 3-13 only 3 years ago, and had misfired on its drafted QB. I think this team has more talent than the 2018 Cards. If it's done right, we should see progress in year 2.
Yep that's how I see it and why I remain optimistic.
Who knows if Petit or Abrams look at Gettlemen and say "My God that was stupid... Why did he do that?"
Yeah, and I think an essential component to assessing these candidates would be to ask them what they would have done, though ideally there would be some form of proof involved so the candidates can't just say, "I would have traded down from the number 2 overall pick and drafted Quinten Nelson AND Lamar Jackson in the 1st, then taken Nick Chubb in the 2nd."
For example, people should be able to produce scouting reports, and anyone who had great players ranked as Day 3 prospects or terrible players ranked as first-rounders should evoke skepticism. But if there's evidence that someone had a better idea than Gettleman that's been borne out by hindsight, that person ought to be considered whether they're internal or not.
The sad thing about that picture... There are 3 Rams in that picture hitting Jones. I mean come on block someone... Anyone!
Maybe the Tischs step up and demand all Maras to be removed from football ops. Seems pretty doubtful and not sure if even possible.
What the Giants need is a new GM or Coach who will yield significant and ultimate power. People will laugh but I would go after Saban. He would completely remake this roster and change the culture. I wouldn't be as worried about his age as others...
Whatever it takes, widespread change is badly needed and overdue.
Maybe he'll just go all out and say screw you all and make Chris the GM. He might as well at this point, I mean it's pretty clear every decision he makes is worse than the last. So why not.
Maybe he'll just go all out and say screw you all and make Chris the GM. He might as well at this point, I mean it's pretty clear every decision he makes is worse than the last. So why not.
In some ways, that would be better. He couldn't hide from accountability if he was GM.
Every single move from that season was a huge waste of money and time. Even the Barkley pick, low hanging fruit of the highest variety, has fucking sucked because they guy can't stay on the field. Of course he can't....why would he.
DG is done. He's such an easy target and fall guy and he's older, so Mara has all that going for him.
I still don't know why they didn't go bigger and badder along the front 7. The Giants know better than anyone how important the front 7 is. They spent resources on Williams, Lawrence and Martinez and basically went bargain shopping everywhere else.
Do you know who else’s OL is terrible? The Tampa Bay buccaneers with four out of five guys out with injury. Do you think Brady would be back there slinging touchdowns all over the field with a bunch of subs in his OL?
It’s just an excuse that your best players can’t play because they’re hurt?
It doesn’t make any sense. If we had five all Pro El Chapo Taylor all out with injuries would we be disappointed that in all world 0L is failing when really it’s the back ups?
I think it's all talk. Running a mixed defense is useless if you don't have the right tools for any of them.
Do you know who else’s OL is terrible? The Tampa Bay buccaneers with four out of five guys out with injury. Do you think Brady would be back there slinging touchdowns all over the field with a bunch of subs in his OL?
It’s just an excuse that your best players can’t play because they’re hurt?
It doesn’t make any sense. If we had five all Pro El Chapo Taylor all out with injuries would we be disappointed that in all world 0L is failing when really it’s the back ups?
The starters when they're not injured aren't much either. We didn't have to wait until today to point out that the OL isn't good.
Solder is finished as a pro football player. He looked it in 2019, opted out of 2020, and was given a starting job in 2021. Their plan was either Solder, who is done, or Peart, who is totally unproven.
But it seems the Mara's got around that by naming him SR VP of Player Personnel when everyone on the Tisch sided was dumb fat and happy during the Eli Super Bowl years. A lost decade later his nephew is moving up the corporate ladder quickly.
From NJ.com Dan Duggan December of 2017:
Mara was asked if he expects the general manager who replaces Jerry Reese to completely overhaul the front office.
"I think that's going to be largely up to the new GM," Mara said. "And we did go through this, back in '07 when Jerry was hired. We kept most of the people and I'm not anticipating there being wholesale changes. But again, that's largely going to be up to the new general manager."
That answer ran counter to Mara's overriding theme when explaining the decision to fire Reese and head coach Ben McAdoo on Monday with four games remaining in a miserable season.
"We've gotten to the point where we felt like we had to make wholesale changes and that's what we've done here," Mara said.
The changes really can't be considered wholesale if only Reese is replaced and most of the front office is retained. It's obvious that Mara's brother, Chris, who has been the team's senior vice president of player personnel since 2011, will remain in the front office.
But John Mara said that his brother is not in the running to replace Reese.
"He does not want to be a candidate, I don't think, for the full-time position," John Mara said during an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN. "His input is certainly going to be something that is very crucial to the final decision."
Kevin Abrams, who has worked in the Giants' front office for 16 years, has been named the interim general manager.
Ernie Accorsi, who was the Giants' general manager from 1998-2007, will serve as a consultant in the GM search. Accorsi's presence leads to more speculation that the Giants may not shake things up as much as John Mara initially indicated, especially with former Giants executive Dave Gettleman available after getting fired as Panthers general manager in July.
"We have names in mind, but I'm not going to go into the names right now," Mara said.
Four years later what has changed?
Giants owner John Mara says brother, Chris, isn't a general manager candidate - ( New Window )
Coaching staff will get another year - might get new OC but may not want Jones to have to learn another system.
"I have withdrawn my name from consideration for the position of general manager for the Atlanta Falcons," Mara said in a one-paragraph statement released by the Giants. "I want to thank Arthur Blank for his interest in me, and we had a very good discussion earlier this week in Atlanta. However, I am no longer a candidate for the position."
Explain to me how it would pass the other NFL owners that a 1/11 owner of 50% of the Giants would be the GM for another team. I would imagine that he was no longer a candidate once he found out he'd have to sell his interest in the Giants. But it did lend credibility to his claim of being qualified for the job. Never mind that Blank was interviewing another NFL owner whose team had just pulled the biggest upset in NFL history a few weeks before. Was it really an interview? We'll never know.
Chase was a decent Center with the right mentality.
Peart will be another DG decision point - 3rd rounder should develop into a solid starter. Set Solder down and see what we have.
I'd also be scouting interior OL heavily, no more resting on laurels and waiting until the regular season is set to begin to start trading draft picks for vets sitting on the bench.
If Abrams or another internal flunky is named to replace DG, I may just burn all of my Giants paraphernalia and be done with this team.