one of the things that drives me crazy about NFL front offices is when you read about a scout or worse someone in leadership in an organization being fired right after the draft.
I know those three groups - GM, scouts and FO staff (head of player development, head of college scouting, etc.)
and the reasons I always read is so much goes into scouting and draft prep you need to keep those people around.
but what bothers me is those people are generally not great at their jobs, which is usually the reason or part of it they're being let go to begin with.
So, this post, another in a long line of clean house, rebuild, stay the course, whatever...threads is questioning the timing.
I don't want the people who created this debacle anywhere near scouting or selecting players.
When does the cord need to be cut to give a new regime time to get in and own the process going forward
this off-season is too important to keep people shitty at their jobs in their jobs because the process is too long to replace them (which I think is bullshit anyway, you can learn an entire semester of physics in a couple weeks, I'm positive someone can come up with a way to scout 500 football players in a couple months).
I also think you spend much of your time now researching and finding your candidate covertly now.
I do not want to see John Mara in the draft room next year. I also do not want his fingerprints on the new coach hire. Just dont hire a pedophile.... otherwise it is completely up to the GM.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
Same thing for Crowder covering on Stafford’s touchdown pass to Henderson near the of the first half.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
Cocaine is one helluva drug!
I would probably be okay of letting Gettleman go earlier versus later as long as their was another point person around that could responsibly handle marketing some assets for future draft picks before the trade deadline.
The scouts need to be doing their jobs as normal, even if they may not be good at it. A new GM will have to evaluate their process and judgments. Same with most of front office.
Not a good scene but this is what happens sometimes when you don't make hard decisions sooner and decide to play "wait and see/sit on the fence"...
Another one for you is when Thomas went out Garrett made no adjustment to give Peart any help at all. The Rams were chipping the Giants edge's. Imagine that, two guys who couldn't get home if they were allowed a running start and the Giants have their backup LT who hasn't played in that spot much if at all cold off the bench with no help.
The Giants are a complete mess. Top to bottom.
That happened more than once. Then, we had morons in the game thread saying Peppers cannot cover anyone (post that play). His job should not be put in position to cover the best route runners in the game. Bradberry or Jackson should be on Kupp and Woods... period.
Yes, probably not the right thread for this, but I agree completely.
Peppers in coverage with a receiver half the quality as Kupp is a problem, but doing that yesterday a couple of times in the first half was egregious...
They do what they do...conduct the draft and maybe we draft a new qb and we might make significant roster moves...who knows...
The question is: Are we better or worse off?
I have a hard time believing we are worse than a team who has gone 19-51 since 2016. We are literally the worst team in the league. Wtf are we doing?
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
16-38. We have lost 70% of our games since DG was named GM.
Different coaches. Different QBs. The entire roster turned over, in many spots more than once.
And yet, we continue to lose. We could win 3 of our next 10 games, and that would IMPROVE Gettleman's winning percentage here.
He might not be the only problem for this franchise, but Gettleman sure as hell isn't the solution.
They do what they do...conduct the draft and maybe we draft a new qb and we might make significant roster moves...who knows...
The question is: Are we better or worse off?
I have a hard time believing we are worse than a team who has gone 19-51 since 2016. We are literally the worst team in the league. Wtf are we doing?
First of all, Mara is not firing everyone mid season. To suggest that means you know nothing about this franchise. However, if that were to happen...this team is not getting fixed quickly. We are missing too many pieces. We need to control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. You cannot fix that in one off season.
Last year, signing Golladay was the wrong move when clearly we needed to spend more money on the OL. Now, maybe the opportunity for an OL was not there or the guy we wanted did not want to play for the Giants (would not be surprised).
Anyway... this team is so far below sea level that it would take a miracle to turn it into a playoff team anytime soon.
that whole concept is bizarre to me.
keep shitty people in important roles because....[stupid reasons]
I agree what others said as well. Let the football folks do their jobs and as the owner and family, stop getting yourselves so heavily involved.
There is a reason you don't see a lot of turnover in scouting during the season and before the draft. If you fire a bunch of your scouts, who can you hire who has done all the scouted the college football season? That includes not just games but practices and interviewing coaches and others who know the kids. All you could do is turn to other teams' scouts who have been fired. You would end up putting way more emphasis on the combine and individual workouts than game action. That would mean more workout warriors who haven't shown it on the field.
Teams usually have multiple scouts see each player. So you would have to have multiple individuals all breaking down thousands of hours of game tape to evaluate each individual players. Say there are 14 guys from Alabama who could be drafted. You are going need to have two or three scouts evaluate each one in each game they played (some going back to the season before).
Another big question is whether they are still using the massive psychological test they used to used. We haven't heard of it lately. But there just seem to be too many passive players on the Giants. While I don't believe the test stopped the Giants from taking certainly players they felt strongly about, I suspect the impact comes when you have two players graded equally physically. Do they then end up grabbing the less aggressive personality because of their test? People here love Gates' in your face approach. How many other players have that. Is that because of the Giants approach to scouting the psychological side of things?
as is the person you want to hire to pick them out in the first place.
also the law of averages tells you that not every scout in the building is completely worthless (someone rated Toney well, and Thomas, etc).
making a change after the draft with a fresh cycle is the practical time to wipe out the staff - ideally after you've already been able to secure commitments from replacements.
the right time to fire a GM is when you are ready to start looking for the replacement. if there's someone you want presently available fire them. if not and there's going to be an interviewing process do it when that interview process can begin (i.e. when seasons end and the people you want to speak with are available).
So hire the GM between Nov-Jan.
Let that person bring on key staffers asap.
Let go of dead wood after the draft and continue adding talented people to the FO on a regular basis.
this is perhaps a weird met fan thing, but Paul Depodesta is someone I'd be really interested in as next GM. He has experience in NY and having come up in an entirely different sport I don't think he has any sacred cows philosophically and you would think a very fresh mindset. He's also clearly highly intelligent. he's technically titled above GM and I believe the owner loves him so not sure how good of a chance you'd have to get him unless being the literal GM is something he really wants to do.
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And announces that everyone is fired... Gettleman, Judge, the whole staff etc... and we play out the year with an interim GM & staff etc... and when the season ends we find a new GM & Coach.
They do what they do...conduct the draft and maybe we draft a new qb and we might make significant roster moves...who knows...
The question is: Are we better or worse off?
I have a hard time believing we are worse than a team who has gone 19-51 since 2016. We are literally the worst team in the league. Wtf are we doing?
First of all, Mara is not firing everyone mid season. To suggest that means you know nothing about this franchise. However, if that were to happen...this team is not getting fixed quickly. We are missing too many pieces. We need to control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. You cannot fix that in one off season.
Last year, signing Golladay was the wrong move when clearly we needed to spend more money on the OL. Now, maybe the opportunity for an OL was not there or the guy we wanted did not want to play for the Giants (would not be surprised).
Anyway... this team is so far below sea level that it would take a miracle to turn it into a playoff team anytime soon.
Yea, I know what Mara is and will probably do... it was to provide an extreme example comparing who we have in charge to the rest of the NFL....
Playoffs? Did you say Playoffs? I think we'd all take a 500 ballclub right now.
if it's a guy the new regime just wants to replace to bring in "their guy" then great that's different than getting rid of someone because of incompetence.
QB is notr this team's immediate need. How bout finally addressing the OLine or the weak pass rush with our two first round picks this coming April.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
You would give Gettleman another season? I wouldn’t give him another week.
A good 4 drafts and free agent signings? Did I miss something? He has built one of the worst teams in the league. He’s been awful.
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The one thing you don't want is Mara bringing in an in-house interim GM and then saying at the end of the season, he's really fit the bill. Same with coach.
There is a reason you don't see a lot of turnover in scouting during the season and before the draft. If you fire a bunch of your scouts, who can you hire who has done all the scouted the college football season? That includes not just games but practices and interviewing coaches and others who know the kids. All you could do is turn to other teams' scouts who have been fired. You would end up putting way more emphasis on the combine and individual workouts than game action. That would mean more workout warriors who haven't shown it on the field.
Teams usually have multiple scouts see each player. So you would have to have multiple individuals all breaking down thousands of hours of game tape to evaluate each individual players. Say there are 14 guys from Alabama who could be drafted. You are going need to have two or three scouts evaluate each one in each game they played (some going back to the season before).
Another big question is whether they are still using the massive psychological test they used to used. We haven't heard of it lately. But there just seem to be too many passive players on the Giants. While I don't believe the test stopped the Giants from taking certainly players they felt strongly about, I suspect the impact comes when you have two players graded equally physically. Do they then end up grabbing the less aggressive personality because of their test? People here love Gates' in your face approach. How many other players have that. Is that because of the Giants approach to scouting the psychological side of things?
You hire Sy.
if it's a guy the new regime just wants to replace to bring in "their guy" then great that's different than getting rid of someone because of incompetence.
any (good) new leader it likely to get rid of anyone they deem incompetent as soon as they realize it and generally those are the easiest decisions to make. I believe the NYG actually dumped a few scouts in February 2020 a month or so after Judge came on board. we obviously don't know who made that decision and why just that there is precent for scouts being fired outside of the window you mentioned.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
The Cardinals are 5-0 and beat the Rams in LA. But you would take our personnel (built over the last 4 drafts and FA) over theirs?
This can't be serious.
Kingsbury came in and knew right away the QB they had drafted the year before was a mistake and he moved on from him. That is symbolic of why the Cardinals are where they are, and the Giants are where they are.
Blind loyalty to people in the face of horrible results is no way to run a business or a franchise.
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everyone, I am saying don't fire people after the draft that you know you're likely going to fire because you didn't have time to bring in their replacements.
if it's a guy the new regime just wants to replace to bring in "their guy" then great that's different than getting rid of someone because of incompetence.
any (good) new leader it likely to get rid of anyone they deem incompetent as soon as they realize it and generally those are the easiest decisions to make. I believe the NYG actually dumped a few scouts in February 2020 a month or so after Judge came on board. we obviously don't know who made that decision and why just that there is precent for scouts being fired outside of the window you mentioned.
Maybe, but every year it seems I read blurbs or articles in May, after the draft and free agency periods, about scouts and personnel leadership roles being let go.
It never makes sense to me and I've heard a lot of the explanations and I find them specious as well.
If you are committed to the head coach and his vision, and you’re keeping the GM to maintain continuity in the scouting ranks, letting go of the GM right after the draft makes sense.
I remember a thread years ago when the Bills fired Doug Whaley after the draft calling the Bills into question.
- In hindsight the Bills had a good draft in 2017 (3 starters in White, Dawkins, Milano)
- They hired a good young GM in Beane
- They are now a perennial contenders
If the Giants keep Judge I can see it playing out that way.
But one big factor is Gettleman is the worst GM in football, so there’s no risk he’s taking a bunch of scouts with anywhere except IHOP.
if it's a guy the new regime just wants to replace to bring in "their guy" then great that's different than getting rid of someone because of incompetence.
Agree with this. You fire DG now and bring in his replacement during the year. That allows him to evaluate the scouts and determine who he wants to keep and who he wants to let go. You start building the team you want for this upcoming draft, not 2023.
If you know you are going to let someone go then you do it when you come to that realization. You don't retain them and let them keep doing their job poorly.
Doesn't feel like it...
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Be patient... I'm going somewhere with this.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
16-38. We have lost 70% of our games since DG was named GM.
Different coaches. Different QBs. The entire roster turned over, in many spots more than once.
And yet, we continue to lose. We could win 3 of our next 10 games, and that would IMPROVE Gettleman's winning percentage here.
He might not be the only problem for this franchise, but Gettleman sure as hell isn't the solution.
I just want to add that I wish Hanlon wasn't so transparent about his clandestine BBI handles. It would make the hunt for his plants so much more fulfilling.
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Be patient... I'm going somewhere with this.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
You would give Gettleman another season? I wouldn’t give him another week.
A good 4 drafts and free agent signings? Did I miss something? He has built one of the worst teams in the league. He’s been awful.
I think he writes these just for the reactions. 4 good drafts...wow.
The real question is when do you let go of Gettleman. There are multiple schools of thought on this ranging from let him go now or wait until after the year. There's pro's and con's to each.
My opinion is if you have no confidence in him to be your GM and you know you're firing him at the end of the year, don't wait to do it. There's 0 reason Judge and Abrams can't handle the duties between now and the end of the year. I don't want to lose a candidate that may be out there because another team doesn't wait on moving their GM and jumps on them before we can.
Is the only time you can fire scouts and FO staff in May or June? seems like we make the job those people do more unique and irreplaceable than it really is (IMO)
Biteymax22 : 10:05 am : link : reply
Are pretty much here through the draft. ...
What they have to show for it?
- A promising young left tackle picked 4th overall ( with a lot left to prove).
- A talented running back who can't stay on the field and hasn't excelled or put it all together.
- A starting defensive tackle- a times impressive but overall just about an average starter.
- A quarterback that has yet to prove he's an NFL starter who was picked 6th overall.
- A promising rookie wideout who showed a ton of talent in one game.
The rest are complete question marks, busts or replaceable players. And this is picking at the top of the draft for 4 years.
If you want to celebrate the extra 1st next year have it. I'm sure that will lead the Giants to a title. But that is a horrendous draft record after 4 years.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
I'm not convinced that you're not actually John Mara, given how insanely and ludicrously optimistic all of this is.
Quote:
Be patient... I'm going somewhere with this.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
I'm not convinced that you're not actually John Mara, given how insanely and ludicrously optimistic all of this is.
Or maybe I'm just right that BOTH sides of the line are the problem, more so than DG.....
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In comment 15418878 DannyDimes said:
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Be patient... I'm going somewhere with this.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
I'm not convinced that you're not actually John Mara, given how insanely and ludicrously optimistic all of this is.
Or maybe I'm just right that BOTH sides of the line are the problem, more so than DG.....
Are you just doing a poor attempt to be funny or get reactions?
Quote:
In comment 15418878 DannyDimes said:
Quote:
Be patient... I'm going somewhere with this.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
I'm not convinced that you're not actually John Mara, given how insanely and ludicrously optimistic all of this is.
Or maybe I'm just right that BOTH sides of the line are the problem, more so than DG.....
Or maybe Eric and Gidie haven't gotten around to banning you yet.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
The Cards are undefeated.
We suck dirty monkey balls.
I'm looking at the Giants last 4 drafts and they look pretty decent. I just looked at the last 4 drafts of the Vikings, Pats, Dolphins and Cards and I'll take our crop over theirs.
Then you have DG getting value back for OBJ, who is/was a clown. You have two seasons of pretty good free agent signings. We can argue this, but I'll take an aggressive GM trying to fill desperately needed spots, even if he overpays (Golladay, Jackson).
So my question is this... Is Gettleman really, really, really the problem. Or are we taking the easy way out placing blame on him?
I believe we have our quarterback and left tackle. We have a number of young talented pieces, Toney, Xavier, Slayton, Shane and one and one...
We need to fix BOTH lines.
If I'm Mara, I give DG and Judge one more season.
Yes, he's a huge problem but he's not alone.
When Gettleman came here, 3 of his major objectives were;
- find a franchise QB
- rebuild the OL
- find pass rushers
Now that he's in his 4th year, the Giants need to;
- find a franchise QB
- rebuild the OL
- find pass rushers
Case closed.