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Patience and health

GiantNatty : 10/18/2021 10:18 am
I get that this is New York and that the immediate reaction to a loss like this - and frankly a string of losing seasons like this - is going to be "fire everyone!" 

Let's remember though, that Phil Simms was drafted in 1979.  He was an enormous disappointment until 1984, when he started to stay healthy and turn the corner.  But it was FIVE FULL SEASONS of disappointment with him before the patience started to pay off.

Eli Manning, for a good long while, had many concerned that he was a bust as well.  From 2004-2007, he had been to two playoff games - one against Carolina in which he led the offense to a grand total of ZERO points (at home) and another (after an 8-8 season) that he lost to the hated Eagles.  The next year, before it all started to click, look at the week 11 loss to the Vikings in which he threw three pick sixes - not just three interceptions, but three pick sixes.  Fans were thinking he clearly was not the answer.  And remember, at this point Roethlisberger already had a ring...

Yesterday, Jones played poorly - there is no arguing otherwise.  But that he played like a guy who had some cobwebs a week after getting a hard-to-watch concussion should come as no surprise to anyone.  That he played at all should come as a pleasant surprise to EVERYONE.  This guy has guts and he wants to play.  I'm not saying that Daniel Jones is the next Phil Simms or the next Eli Manning.  I will say, though, that patience with players is ESSENTIAL.  Especially players that have talent, and Jones has talent.

Against the Saints, our last four first-round draft picks all played and played well.  Yesterday, three of the four were limited, and then out altogether.  You could say four of the four if you include Jones as limited coming off a concussion.  Do you think that doesn't take a toll on the field?  Of course it does!  Would the Giants (and Jones) have had a better chance if Thomas, Barkely, and Toney were all healthy and playing?  Certainly a much better chance.  Do you think the Giants would have had a better chance with Gates at center, Lemieux at left guard, and a healthy Thomas at left tackle?  Surely.

Injuries happen and teams have to be ready for them, but at some point you lose critical mass and the weight on the too-many-backups becomes too much to bear.  It happens even to teams that start off fully loaded.  It's not an excuse, it's a cause of what we're seeing.  Now if you want to go down the "we're drafting too many guys that get hurt," that's a rabbit hole that won't get you very far.  Many of the guys that are injured had no injury history at all.  Sometimes it's just bad luck.

The Giants are bad this year for many reasons.  But first and foremost is that the majority - the vast majority - of their best players are not even playing.  I do think that some changes need to be made.  Clearly the status quo is not working. But I also think the biggest thing that would help this team would be to get - and stay - fully healthy.
I don't think it's "New York's"  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/18/2021 10:23 am : link
fault.

Other markets make whole-sale changes as well. And for the betterment of the team.
With  
thomasa510 : 10/18/2021 10:25 am : link
With Jones there is no need to make a decision after one week.

The Giants should assess a full year of games and see how Jones develops which, for this year, goes beyond win/losses.
I have had patience for a decade  
Jints in Carolina : 10/18/2021 10:26 am : link
My patience has worn thin.
Sanity  
Rosey Brown HOF 74 : 10/18/2021 10:36 am : link
In a sea of despair.
Every team has injuries  
AdamBrag : 10/18/2021 10:41 am : link
This team lacks depth.

We’ve been the worst team in the NFL since 2017  
Anakim : 10/18/2021 10:43 am : link
How much more patience do we need?
What!? Is that a flicker of hope, resolve or positivity?  
mako J : 10/18/2021 10:44 am : link
Here they come to stomp it out. Those things can’t exist here.
Jones is Not The Problem  
LTIsTheGreatest : 10/18/2021 10:49 am : link
Pretty hard to be a successful QB when you are constantly running for your life and the moment you get the snap the pass rush is right on top of you. The focus should be on rebuilding this OLine, like the Cowboys did when they started their rebuild.
Thing is  
ManningLobsItBurressAlone : 10/18/2021 10:54 am : link
with some of these known quantities, these were the question marks that existed beforehand.

Investing a #2 overall pick in a RB position where the injury rate and shelf life are way more volatile than other positions.

The #1 holdup that most posters had with investing such a large portion of cap to Golladay was his question marks about health. I was a big proponent of signing him as well, but this was my concern too.

Shep's #1 bugagoo his entire Giant career has been his ability to consistently stay on the field.

Those are 3 of our most important offensive weapons, with question marks that shouldn't have come as a surprise. We can say it's unfortunate that they've happened, but these 3 major pieces haven't been beacon's of health for their NFL careers.

Regarding other injuries, I mean it's the NFL. Ravens lost what, the top 3 RBs on their depth chart and their #1 CB a week before the season began, and they're still the #3 rushing team in the league, while sporting a 5-1 record.
I keep going back to the 2007 Vikings game  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/18/2021 10:55 am : link
...Eli was AWFUL in that game. I think many Giants fans were sure he was mistake after that game.

That game, and how Eli played after it, is the only reason I am not 100% ready to call Jones a failure.

That said, Jones doesn't have 50% of the arm that Eli had. A cannon arm and arguably the best deep ball touch in the NFL can easily cover up some bad decision making mistakes.
I'd have patience if  
thedogfather : 10/18/2021 10:57 am : link
there were signs of progress. I don't see enough of them.
RE: I keep going back to the 2007 Vikings game  
fanoftheteam : 10/18/2021 11:06 am : link
In comment 15419330 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...Eli was AWFUL in that game. I think many Giants fans were sure he was mistake after that game.

That game, and how Eli played after it, is the only reason I am not 100% ready to call Jones a failure.

That said, Jones doesn't have 50% of the arm that Eli had. A cannon arm and arguably the best deep ball touch in the NFL can easily cover up some bad decision making mistakes.



Elis Decision making and lack of ability to throw a tight ball was probably the biggest complaint at this point in his career.
RE: Jones is Not The Problem  
Mike from Ohio : 10/18/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15419312 LTIsTheGreatest said:
Quote:
Pretty hard to be a successful QB when you are constantly running for your life and the moment you get the snap the pass rush is right on top of you. The focus should be on rebuilding this OLine, like the Cowboys did when they started their rebuild.


Nor is he the solution. At least not that he has demonstrated other than in short spurts.

You can only give him a contract if he has proven he is the long term answer. Does anyone believe that determination is case closed?
My patience has worn thin also. And I don't know if Jones is "the guy"  
Blue21 : 10/18/2021 11:12 am : link
or not. But there are far worse problems on this team. I see teams with I believe lesser talent stay competitive and we aren't. Our defense from front to back is a mess. Coaching and schemes on both offense and defense is very questionable. Injuries sure haven't helped. The two players I am pretty convinced they need to move on from are Engram and Barkley. I want a downhill RB that runs with anger. I saw the Patriots game yesterday. Harrison the rookie runs that way and Stevenson. They kept them in that game. And of course their Oline certainly looks better than our mess. I see some of the plays other teams run and I'm constantly saying why don't the Giants run plays like that.
Is this DG's  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 11:14 am : link
BBI handle?
Using Phil Simms in 1979 as a comparison  
Ben in Tampa : 10/18/2021 11:14 am : link
To anything happening in 2021 is so wildly out of touch.

It is not relevant at all.

Eli Manning in 2004 isn’t relevant either. It’s a different league.
OK  
WideRight : 10/18/2021 11:15 am : link
Let's wait until 2023. And then what?
Fuck your patience.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/18/2021 11:17 am : link
This team has been trash for the better part of a decade now, and has the worst record in the entire league since 2017. They haven't been a single game over .500 at any point over the past 4 seasons, soon to be 5.

This franchise is becoming the modern day version of the Bengals, Brown, Jets, and Lions, and people out there are asking for MORE patience.

I used to think Giants fans are smarter than most other fanbases, but not anymore.
and even then, Jones still doesn't look good in comparison  
Greg from LI : 10/18/2021 11:17 am : link
Simms went 6-5 as the starter in 1979. The other Giant QBs were 0-5.

Six wins in 11 games on a weak team. Jones has all of nine wins over 32 starts.
Patience and Injuries  
TyreeHelmet : 10/18/2021 11:28 am : link
I can't believe the amount of fans that keep citing patience and injuries.

Are the Giants the only team in the NFL with injuries? How are the Ravens doing with those injuries? The Seahawks went to OT last night with Geno Smith starting...

How much patience do we need to give? Would giving Gettleman 10 years provide enough time for his team not to get its doors blown off routinely? The Giants aren't exactly starting a bunch of rookies either...especially on defense.

For the life of me I have no idea how anyone could have faith in this front office to produce a good roster. And the head coach and staff are a giant question mark and that is being generous.
Pat Hanlon  
ajr2456 : 10/18/2021 11:35 am : link
Is that you?
This comparison to 1979 doesn't work.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2021 11:40 am : link
Rookie Quarterbacks get locked into 4 year contracts and then you need to decide on whether or not to spend 100+ million dollars to keep them in free agency.
RE: Fuck your patience.  
family progtitioner : 10/18/2021 11:47 am : link
In comment 15419382 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
This team has been trash for the better part of a decade now, and has the worst record in the entire league since 2017. They haven't been a single game over .500 at any point over the past 4 seasons, soon to be 5.

This franchise is becoming the modern day version of the Bengals, Brown, Jets, and Lions, and people out there are asking for MORE patience.

I used to think Giants fans are smarter than most other fanbases, but not anymore.


Becoming? They are the jets, lions. I wish they were as good as the browns and bengals. There's no hope right now with this group in charge. Absolutely none
The bugaboo here in this regard is that frustration, panic  
NYRiese : 10/18/2021 11:48 am : link
anxiousness, and a “just do something” attitude often lead to poor decisions and mistakes.
The problem isn’t having patience.  
BillT : 10/18/2021 12:25 pm : link
It’s seeing a team four years into a rebuild that is still a great distance away from competence. The OL is probably still multiple players away from being finished. There isn’t a single edge player on the team who can either set the edge or rush the passer. We are a couple of years of player acquisition from being done and who knows what else we’ll need by then.
Phil Simms was always a good QB  
giantstock : 10/18/2021 12:55 pm : link
He never had a running game early on.

Th team turned it around on offense because of Carpenter.
And Parcells badly blundered going with Brunner the following year.
RE: The bugaboo here in this regard is that frustration, panic  
Regular Coffee : 10/18/2021 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15419458 NYRiese said:
Quote:
anxiousness, and a “just do something” attitude often lead to poor decisions and mistakes.


Unlike the "poor decisions" and "mistakes" of the last 4 years...
Starting with his first game in 1981  
jc in c-ville : 10/18/2021 1:20 pm : link
We knew LT was special. Add competent pieces to that D, we knew the O simply had to manage and let the D win games. Now, every aspect of this team sucks. I will give the O more slack due to injuries. Sickening what we watch every week.
Does any one remember  
Beef Wellington : 10/18/2021 2:45 pm : link
the feeling of how anxious and excited you would become waiting for Giant game time??
Completely agree with OP  
jsuds : 10/18/2021 2:52 pm : link
Maybe we'll be fortunate at some point this season to have Barkley, Toney, Galloday, Shep, Slayton and Thomas all on the field at the same time. And we're desperate for edge talent which two #1's should solve next draft.
RE: Completely agree with OP  
TyreeHelmet : 10/18/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15419921 jsuds said:
Quote:
Maybe we'll be fortunate at some point this season to have Barkley, Toney, Galloday, Shep, Slayton and Thomas all on the field at the same time. And we're desperate for edge talent which two #1's should solve next draft.


How much time do you want to give? And you honestly think even a healthy version of this roster is any good?
RE: Phil Simms was always a good QB  
Greg from LI : 10/18/2021 3:15 pm : link
In comment 15419626 giantstock said:
Quote:
He never had a running game early on.

Th team turned it around on offense because of Carpenter.
And Parcells badly blundered going with Brunner the following year.


Not only that, I find it rich that people are complaining about Jones' "weapons" while Simms was throwing to the likes of Johnny Perkins and Mike Friede
RE: RE: Completely agree with OP  
TheBlueprintNC : 10/18/2021 4:13 pm : link
In comment 15419945 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
In comment 15419921 jsuds said:


Quote:


Maybe we'll be fortunate at some point this season to have Barkley, Toney, Galloday, Shep, Slayton and Thomas all on the field at the same time. And we're desperate for edge talent which two #1's should solve next draft.



How much time do you want to give? And you honestly think even a healthy version of this roster is any good?


Ask New Orleans
RE: RE: RE: Completely agree with OP  
TyreeHelmet : 10/18/2021 4:31 pm : link
In comment 15420102 TheBlueprintNC said:
Quote:
In comment 15419945 TyreeHelmet said:


Quote:


In comment 15419921 jsuds said:


Quote:


Maybe we'll be fortunate at some point this season to have Barkley, Toney, Galloday, Shep, Slayton and Thomas all on the field at the same time. And we're desperate for edge talent which two #1's should solve next draft.



How much time do you want to give? And you honestly think even a healthy version of this roster is any good?



Ask New Orleans


So you really think its only injuries holding back this team from being good? Care to explain denver, atlanta and Washington ( playing their backup QB)?

And aside from Martinez, whos injured on the defense? How have they looked the last 2 weeks? Is that the fault of injuries too?
I'm not saying that this roster - if healthy - is for sure "good"  
GiantNatty : 10/18/2021 4:32 pm : link
but for sure i can say it would be better than what we've seen so far.

I would have very much liked to have seen a line (all healthy) of Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, and Solder/Peart. Add in a healthy Barkley, Golladay, Toney, and Slayton/Shepard and I can't help but think we would have a much better barometer for evaluating this team than we do with all those guys out and/or hurt...
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