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I'm going to give this team the second half of the season

UberAlias : 10/18/2021 12:46 pm
I don't need to go into the ugliness because it's obvious. But if we take a step back, take a deep breath, and let the emotion subside -there are a few (not many, but a few) signs of encouragement.

I am going to list a few that I see, no need to debate --you don't have to agree-- that at least give me enough reason to say: Let's just wait and see. Considering all of the injuries, retirements, reshifting configurations, and just how deep into the depth chart we have had to field starters on the unit, I feel they have done a good job with the Oline. The development of Thomas in particular, and despite all the injuries and shifting around week to week, up until Thomas went back down again yesterday and the wheels finally came off, the line has far surpassed what you would expect considering what they have to work with and no time together. That was a major problem that's been trending in a good direction. Next is, the losses to Wash and Atl where, let's face it --NYG outplayed their opponents in both of those games only to blow at the end in large part due to bad penalties often at the worst of times. But since that point, the penalties seems to be an area they have cleaned up. There have been other issues, but penalty wise I give the staff some credit for seemingly having cleaned up. STL had been the least penalized team in the league coming in but if anything NYG had played the cleaner game, particular early on. Saquan, Goliday, Toney all started out slow but were all showing signs of being major impact players before the new injuries. Get these three back as well as Thomas and I am very curious to see what this offense can become.

Biggest question is clearly the defense which has taken a major step back since last year. None of the guys you expect to be making plays have been so far. But I did like seeing the signs of life from Leonard Williams yesterday before the O went limp and basically handed STL 14 points on turnovers and wheels came off on the game. Can that side of the ball regain some of what we saw last year? I have no idea. But if they can and this offense can get healthy with all these key guys being injured, I'm not going to rule out this team getting their shit together and playing like a winning team in the second half of the season.

So for me, from the Raider game on --that stretch of nine games with a bye week in there to make some adjustments is what I'm very curious to see what they do. If things don't look any different in that stretch... well I think we all know what that means. But I'm not at that point in Dante's Inferno of "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" or "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" with this team just yet.

I'm sure most others disagree. This is just how I chose to look at it. Get healthy, and see what 2nd half brings.

The problem is  
Dave on the UWS : 10/18/2021 12:54 pm : link
what indication that they CAN get healthy are you seeing? Slayton's hamstring is very slow to come around. Thomas now has foot AND ankle issues. Jones has been impacted by his concussion (I don't care what he says, its obvious). Toney has a significant ankle problem. Golladay has been injured for 2 years now almost continously. Barkley, ditto.
A lot of the decisions that have screwed the cap involve big contracts to unreliable players. That's on DG, the guy Mara just said is the right guy to lead this team going forward.
The reality is: their ISN'T any hope. Not with John and his family running the show.
The second half of this season will be completely irrelevant  
Go Terps : 10/18/2021 12:54 pm : link
It will matter to the players and coaches - every game goes on their resume. But that's it.

The team's entire putrid culture is built on "giving" people opportunities they haven't earned. These Giants haven't earned the benefit of the doubt from us... they've destroyed it. I'm not giving it to them.

They don't get the second half of the season from me. There is no arrow pointing up. There are no moral victories. There is no carryover of momentum from one season to the next. There is no growth taking place.

The rest of this season's games are irrelevant. What's relevant now is what they do in the front office and the coaching staff. Yet again, the Giants are more interesting of the field than on it.
Wrong  
cosmicj : 10/18/2021 12:57 pm : link
In the second half of the season, the Giants will be facing injury-ridden, dispirited teams, some with backup QBs. They’ll win a couple. Wins like that don’t mean anything. They are random white noise.
Things were looking up  
Gman11 : 10/18/2021 1:00 pm : link
when they went 5-3 last year, except people often forgot that those three losses were non-competitive games when they were still in the hunt for the NFC East title.
Injury ridden team  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 1:00 pm : link
Is what they are now
As long as we get back on the field  
BigBlueJ : 10/18/2021 1:01 pm : link
I guess the second half by default we will see improvement, but I think your argument is being stated from a position of weakness. If you look at the top 10 rosters in the NFL, or 15, maybe 20, where are we when fully healthy? Our Oline has barely a true starter outside of AT, and no depth even prior to the start of the season. We have no edge rush presence at all.
And I am still not sure about the QB, although I am more hopeful then others. Dave G promised to rebuild the lines first and foremost, and he failed. Both lines are very uneven and under performing. He fell into the same trap as the previous GM who then started to chase player rather then build a roster.
Joe Judge is just another Bellichick car salesman suckering yet another GM and owner as if he is pulling Tom Brady out of his ass. Every coach from that tree has been trash yet these suckers keep buying.
I’m not making an argument  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 1:03 pm : link
I’m making a decision to see what things look like when they are snake bitten and completely over matched talent wise. I get it, you don’t care. But that’s where my mind is.
Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/18/2021 1:06 pm : link
before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.
You might as well  
SirLoinOfBeef : 10/18/2021 1:08 pm : link
since they first halves have been dog shit for years.
RE: Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 1:08 pm : link
In comment 15419658 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.


Exactly. So fucking sick of it.
RE: I’m not making an argument  
cosmicj : 10/18/2021 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15419651 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I’m making a decision to see what things look like when they are snake bitten and completely over matched talent wise. I get it, you don’t care. But that’s where my mind is.


It isn’t that we don’t care. It’s that late season games for bad teams aren’t reliable indicators of anything.
RE: Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15419658 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.
I’m just telling you how I’m choosing to approach things here on out. I said I’m sure others will look at differently —dick head.
Everyone is entitled to wait however long they like to  
Mike from Ohio : 10/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
reach conclusions. Some decided Jones was a bad QB the minute he was drafted. Some will wait until he retires to draw a conclusion. No wrong answers, just difference of opinion.

But along that continuum is a bell shaped curve of when people make their conclusions. I think we are past the high point in the middle with this team. Most have concluded this team is bad and there is more than sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion.

If some folks want to hold out for even more data points, that's fine. Just keep in mind that the most recent data points don't mean more than the ones we already have. That is the mistake John Mara makes every season and why nothing is improving.

All data points matter, but at some point you have enough to reach a conclusion and additional data is only incrementally useful. For most fans we are at that point.
RE: RE: Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
In comment 15419672 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 15419658 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.

I’m just telling you how I’m choosing to approach things here on out. I said I’m sure others will look at differently —dick head.


Fair enough, pussy.
Nope  
Sean : 10/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
.
And if the 2nd half goes differently,, what are you giving them?  
ManningLobsItBurressAlone : 10/18/2021 1:13 pm : link
Does a 2nd half improvement mean you're fine maintaining the organizational status quo going into next year?

Say in that 9 game stretch that you're referring to we go 5-4 (W- Raiders, Eagles, Dolphins, Bears, WFT ; L- Bucs, Chargers, Cowboys, Eagles), does a 6-11 or 7-10 record change anything about how you view this team going into next year?


Might as well since the first four games are really just preseason  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 10/18/2021 1:15 pm : link
We're just getting in shape!
RE: And if the 2nd half goes differently,, what are you giving them?  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15419684 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:
Quote:
Does a 2nd half improvement mean you're fine maintaining the organizational status quo going into next year?

Say in that 9 game stretch that you're referring to we go 5-4 (W- Raiders, Eagles, Dolphins, Bears, WFT ; L- Bucs, Chargers, Cowboys, Eagles), does a 6-11 or 7-10 record change anything about how you view this team going into next year?

Nah. But this is a great question. If it were up to me, DG would be gone, no matter what. Been too many years with him. If nothing improves I want to see Judge and Jones gone as well, but for them, I’ll defer until end of season before passing judgement
FFS  
Thegratefulhead : 10/18/2021 1:22 pm : link
Umm The guy up a ways that talked data points.

That was polite as fuck.

Kind.

The Giants are the laughing stock of the NFL for the last 10 years.

What the fuck else do you need to see?

Stop being Charlie fucking Brown.

Mara is laughing at you as he fills his pockets.

Net worth?

Anyone?

Too soon?

He is shoveling us shit and raking it in.

Lol  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 1:22 pm : link
Really pretty funny how a personal choice among fellow fan actually pisses people off. Miserable fucks.
Good for you...  
Dnew15 : 10/18/2021 1:25 pm : link
I just can't do it.

I don't begrudge anyone that does.

It probably makes you a better fan than I...it also will make it all the sweeter when the Giants turn it around...which they will...at some point.
Mara needs to open his freaking eyes......  
Simms11 : 10/18/2021 1:29 pm : link
Maybe Tisch can talk some sense into him?! Anyway, they need to consider bringing in outside consultants to identify what the issues are and how to resolve them. In fact, if I were Mara I would consider bringing in Parcells and TC to do this organizational review. Two of the most successful Giant HCs in last 40 years. Successful organizations do things like this!
........  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 10/18/2021 2:09 pm : link
It all starts with the GM. From outside the organization. If they think they can win with Judge and Jones - so be it.

One that values building and developing the oline as a continuous process (draft assets spent EVERY year)

One that constructs a defense with pass rush top of mind. Investing there before space eating D-line and secondary.

The Giants used to prioritize BACKUP pass rushers over other positions - drafting Kiwi with Strahan, Osi, and Tuck on the depth chart. Then drafting JPP with Osi, Tuck, and Kiwi ahead.

They held the greatest the greatest QB in NFL history to under 20 points trotting out journeyman Sam Madison and RW Mcquarters as major contributors in the secondary. Pass rush makes everyone better

RE: The second half of this season will be completely irrelevant  
joeinpa : 10/18/2021 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15419622 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It will matter to the players and coaches - every game goes on their resume. But that's it.

The team's entire putrid culture is built on "giving" people opportunities they haven't earned. These Giants haven't earned the benefit of the doubt from us... they've destroyed it. I'm not giving it to them.

They don't get the second half of the season from me. There is no arrow pointing up. There are no moral victories. There is no carryover of momentum from one season to the next. There is no growth taking place.

The rest of this season's games are irrelevant. What's relevant now is what they do in the front office and the coaching staff. Yet again, the Giants are more interesting of the field than on it.


I agree normally there is no carry over to the next season, although Tom Coughlin and Eli have stated their win against Dallas the final game of the year did have some carryover

I also agree this is not a year for any moral victories.

I couldn’t disagree more with the idea that the remaining games are irrelevant.

They might be irrelevant in terms of the ultimate goal every season, winning a championship “ but they will be very relevant for whomever is running this team next season and his determination on what guys are pieces going forward.

Don’t forget, George Martin, Brad Van Pelt, Harry Carson, were young guys on some very bad teams who played many games in similar situations
RE: Everyone is entitled to wait however long they like to  
Mike from SI : 10/18/2021 2:22 pm : link
In comment 15419679 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
reach conclusions. Some decided Jones was a bad QB the minute he was drafted. Some will wait until he retires to draw a conclusion. No wrong answers, just difference of opinion.

But along that continuum is a bell shaped curve of when people make their conclusions. I think we are past the high point in the middle with this team. Most have concluded this team is bad and there is more than sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion.

If some folks want to hold out for even more data points, that's fine. Just keep in mind that the most recent data points don't mean more than the ones we already have. That is the mistake John Mara makes every season and why nothing is improving.

All data points matter, but at some point you have enough to reach a conclusion and additional data is only incrementally useful. For most fans we are at that point.


Great post, Mike. A very kind, clear, and sensible way to put it.
I completely agree with UberAlias OP  
jsuds : 10/18/2021 2:36 pm : link
The injuries have been a disaster.
Toney is electric and he will win us games. He
and SB on the filed simultaneously will be scary.
Jones has been sharp when he's had weapons on
the field.

The big lack is an edge presence that can set the edge
and rush the passer. It can't be argued the defense would
be considerably improved with a pass rush. Two #1's
next year will solve that and upgrade OL. Patience.
What I want to see  
JonC : 10/18/2021 2:38 pm : link
is the team and coaches prepare well and play hard on gameday. It looks like a 3-win roster, they'll get lucky a couple times but on the whole they're destined for the top 5 of the draft again. And, that's ok because they will need every one of those picks. But, they've got to nail them, which leads us to ...

The roster is bad, the GM's four year performance is bad. Terrible drafting, terrible assessment of the roster, terrible decisions regarding how realistic their chances were in each season, terrible self-scouting inside the building leading to resting on laurels and never addressing a number of key positions on the football field.

When people in the building catch up to it, I want to see the team and coaches continue to work hard, but want to see some concessions the roster needs turnover. Trades for assets before the deadline, take the keys from DG if you must. Be assertive with Jones' immediate future and decline his option, if the performance level does not rise to merit. No more scholarships. Any player on the roster can be had in trade.

At a minimum, it's time for a new GM. And, with him comes the dilemma of the coaching staff, the scouting department and all the work in motion for the next draft and offseason. Add in the injuries, Mara's tendencies, and you have the groundwork for keeping the status quo in 2022.

I'd blow it all up. Everyone in the org, family members in the executive structure included, need to be under review and replace as success and action plan demands. I want draft picks.
This same cycle keeps playing out  
Greg from LI : 10/18/2021 2:43 pm : link
The Giants start off something like 1-7, then they win three or four meaningless games late in the season, and it spurs some people to get really excited about what that "second half momentum" means for the next season.

And then the next season they start it all over again with yet another 1-7 start.
Sigh  
Giantfan in skinland : 10/18/2021 2:48 pm : link
Quote:
Toney is electric and he will win us games. He
and SB on the filed simultaneously will be scary.


Just had a vision of the next 3-5 years of my life.
I'm in the same boat, want to see the season play out  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/18/2021 2:50 pm : link
Call me crazy but I still get excited at the thought of Thomas, Jones, Barkley, Golladay, Toney all playing together. I need to see what that looks like before I burn everything down.
I'm still gunna watch every game I can.  
Jalapeno : 10/18/2021 2:52 pm : link
Does anyone see a potential win ahead?

Maybe Miami and Chicago?
Rest of season  
JB_in_DC : 10/18/2021 2:55 pm : link
is about determining how many babies get thrown out with Gettleman's bathwater.
RE: Might as well since the first four games are really just preseason  
BlueHurricane : 10/18/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15419687 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
We're just getting in shape!


With this shit organizations recent history of losing early and often you think they would have attacked the preseason to be ready to start hot. Nah!!! Instead they coached scared and came out ill prepared for the only soft stretch of their schedule. So fucking disgusted with this team I grew up loving. They are an abomination.
RE: RE: Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
joeinpa : 10/18/2021 3:07 pm : link
In comment 15419665 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15419658 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.



Exactly. So fucking sick of it.


Everybody is sick of it. But I plan on still watching the games so I going to be hoping for the offense to get healthy and give me something to cheer for.

Guarantee if that would happen, the mood on this board even you guys will be more optimistic than you are now

We have gotten to the point where some are afraid of success going forward because you think it won’t lead to change you want, get it, we all want change.
RE: ........  
pivo : 10/18/2021 3:07 pm : link
In comment 15419829 CoughlinHandsonHips said:
Quote:


One that constructs a defense with pass rush top of mind. Investing there before space eating D-line and secondary.

The Giants used to prioritize BACKUP pass rushers over other positions - drafting Kiwi with Strahan, Osi, and Tuck on the depth chart. Then drafting JPP with Osi, Tuck, and Kiwi ahead.

They held the greatest the greatest QB in NFL history to under 20 points trotting out journeyman Sam Madison and RW Mcquarters as major contributors in the secondary. Pass rush makes everyone better



In '83 rookie coach Parcells benched Phil Simms in favor of Scott Brunner, so that didn't work out so good...

But they had this youngster Taylor, who had a knack for rushing the passer. So maybe there's something to that...

Bear in mind that Simms had a rather pedestrian QBR over 15 years with the Gmen. Only cracked 83.3 (4) times in those 15 years. Morris was a workhorse; Bavaro ('85) was a difference maker.

But we had Martin / Burt* / Marshall(12 sacks)* / Banks(6.5) / Reasons / Carson* / LT(20.5)* in '86
* - Pro Bowl

Strahan / Osi / Kiwi / Tuck was pretty close, but it may be a while before we see either of those groups again.
The OP is right btu lookign at thigns wrong  
giantstock : 10/18/2021 4:13 pm : link
I expect the Giants will win serval games in teh 2nd half of the year thus teh record won't be as awful.

But this is the same mirage as last year as other years.

A note to the OP: They are a bad team. Beating other bad teams doesn't show you near as much as you think.

But expect team to be better, and things nowhere near this awful.

There are too many holes to be any good. And I do expect many at season's end to jump back on the bandwagon. The only way to jump back on is if they nail a lot of picks. A lot of picks.
If you don't want people  
pjcas18 : 10/18/2021 4:23 pm : link
to debate or discuss their disagreement, why post?

Looking for a echo chamber?

i've been saying this same thing  
djm : 10/18/2021 4:32 pm : link
for the last 7-8-9 years now. I get it, but unless this team finishes with a winning record, I don't wanna hear about 2nd half improvements anywhere.

What really sucks is the ENTIRE FUCKING OFFENSE IS hurt. everyone. I mean literally, EVERYONE. 4 WRs? 5? Out. RB? Out. Thomas? Out. gates and the guard...give me a fucking break.
RE: Nah. They were 0-3 and lost at home to ATL  
djm : 10/18/2021 4:39 pm : link
In comment 15419658 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
before the injuries were an issue. Enough is enough with this shit, already. Jesus.


Exactly. The dye was cast week 3. We'd still be done even if the team was healthy, except at least then we'd be able to fairly obliterate Judge and the whole gang where as now we have to unfairly obliterate Judge and the whole gang.

Over the decades of watching football, you don't see many HCs fail in one place only to go elsewhere and win big. You might see some variance from time to time, you might even see a perennial runner up go on to win the whole thing somewhere else, but that is only slight variance, we're talking 1-2 playoff wins.

How many loser HCs go on to win big elsewhere? Little Bill wasn't a "loser" in Cleveland, just not a big winner.

Judge isn't putting this team or its players in a position to succeed. I think it's clear. It sucks that he's never really had a healthy Barkley, but the D is alarmingly bad and that to me is the most important and frustrating development here. Fuck the offense, I don't care. I care about the NYG defense sucking big balls every year since 2012, save for 2016. To me nothing else matters until the unit is NYG good again. And Judge is to blame, along with howdy doody the GM.
The offense with Golloway and Toney clicking  
stoneman : 10/18/2021 4:45 pm : link
was unstoppable - if they can just stay healthy. If you take Hill and Kelce out of KC lineup, do you really think KC is the same team - Mahomes would not be able to carry them on his back. This rash of injuries was the worst in a lifetime - 6 starting offensive players out of 11. Stop with the everybody plays through injuries, not 6 starters on one unit the same week.
RE: The offense with Golloway and Toney clicking  
giantstock : 10/18/2021 6:51 pm : link
In comment 15420144 stoneman said:
Quote:
was unstoppable - if they can just stay healthy. If you take Hill and Kelce out of KC lineup, do you really think KC is the same team - Mahomes would not be able to carry them on his back. This rash of injuries was the worst in a lifetime - 6 starting offensive players out of 11. Stop with the everybody plays through injuries, not 6 starters on one unit the same week.


Your entire post has no merit. I agree with part of it and to a degree but you can't go and say "The Offense was unstoppable" then this implies the other starters on the offensive unit weren't needed because the offense was unstoppable with Golladay and Toney any way. The reality is that you made up that the offense was unstoppable to try to make your faulty point.

Secondly, if you do take out Hill and Kelce, Mahomse's team might not be favored to get to Super Bowl but he'd still make them/carry them to be effective. But I agree injuries continue to impact the analysis of Jones and others.

With that said, you can't ignore yet another fumble. It can't be blamed all on the OL for him fumbling. And let's face it, the Denver game he sucked the life out of that game with his fumble. One of the interceptions in this game he had was completely atrocious. It had nothing to do with the OL. And when Giants were down at the Goal line, his pass the he soared 15 feet out of bounds was ruled uncatchable. If he would have come close instead of making an atrocious throw then Giants probably get a TD early.

There remains a lot of questions with Jones. Referring / implying that he / this offense is "unstoppable" in any manner at this point is over-the-top.

RE: If you don't want people  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 7:07 pm : link
In comment 15420112 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
to debate or discuss their disagreement, why post?

Looking for a echo chamber?
Debate and discuss is the purpose. But we can do that without an attitude, can’t we? Maybe not…
RE: The OP is right btu lookign at thigns wrong  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 7:11 pm : link
In comment 15420104 giantstock said:
Quote:
I expect the Giants will win serval games in teh 2nd half of the year thus teh record won't be as awful.

But this is the same mirage as last year as other years.

A note to the OP: They are a bad team. Beating other bad teams doesn't show you near as much as you think.

But expect team to be better, and things nowhere near this awful.

There are too many holes to be any good. And I do expect many at season's end to jump back on the bandwagon. The only way to jump back on is if they nail a lot of picks. A lot of picks.
I agree. They are a bad team. The talent isn’t there and I was making that argument when others were expecting playoffs. For me, Judge and Jones I’ll reserve my judgement on. DG I’ve seen enough.
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