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Duggan: Giants have "mastered the art of self-delusion"

Scooter185 : 10/18/2021 7:22 pm
Some snippits from the Athletic, Duggan the real Dan dropping Dimes:

"Williams isn’t the only player to invoke the perfect storm that allowed the Giants, who finished 6-10, to remain in the NFC East race until the final game of last season. The players can’t be faulted for failing to recognize that staying in contention in a historically bad division wasn’t an achievement. They’re merely following the lead of a franchise that has mastered the art of self-delusion.

Giants leadership has opted to squint and tilt losing seasons until an angle can be found to glean positivity rather than making the necessary hard evaluations of a franchise that has lost more games than any team in the league over the past five seasons."

"Defenders of Gettleman used to point to the situation he inherited: a 3-13 team with locker room problems. But general manager jobs typically don’t become open unless things are bad. What does it say about Gettleman’s evaluation skills that he assessed the state of the team and determined he could turn it around immediately? He hatched an ill-fated plan to win while rebuilding and failed on both fronts.

Despite a 5-11 record in 2018, there remained a sense of denial surrounding the franchise. Gettleman laughably touted the Giants leading the NFC East in points scored after finishing in last place in the division. He said the team was headed in the right direction because it went 4-4 in the second half of the season despite losing its final three games.

No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win. Somehow, the Giants convinced themselves that they were close to contending and went all-in this offseason with a spending spree."

"The Giants need to run a real search for their next general manager, and candidates from other teams can’t be interviewed until after the season. An outside voice is desperately needed to provide a George Young-level organizational shakeup."

https://theathletic.com/2897500/2021/10/18/another-miserable-start-must-be-a-wake-up-call-for-a-giants-franchise-that-has-lost-its-way?source=user-shared-article
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...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 7:24 pm : link
Read it earlier. And Duggan's spot on. I didn't disagree with one thing he wrote. This should be emailed to John Mara.

Hell, I might just print it out & mail it to the team.
Can we get all of that  
Koffman : 10/18/2021 7:26 pm : link
on a banner ?
This  
jeff57 : 10/18/2021 7:27 pm : link

"The Giants need to run a real search for their next general manager, and candidates from other teams can’t be interviewed until after the season. An outside voice is desperately needed to provide a George Young-level organizational shakeup."
RE: This  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 7:29 pm : link
In comment 15420350 jeff57 said:
Quote:

"The Giants need to run a real search for their next general manager, and candidates from other teams can’t be interviewed until after the season. An outside voice is desperately needed to provide a George Young-level organizational shakeup."


There's going to be a fan base revolt & media meltdown if it's someone hired from within.
I can’t fault them for spending money this off-season  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 7:30 pm : link
They’re trying to stop the losing, which is what we all want. That said, the critique about misevsluation is spot on. That was huge warning sign for me when it came to DG early on.
.  
widmerseyebrow : 10/18/2021 7:31 pm : link
Quote:
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games.


Boy ain't that the truth.
Duggan dropping truth bombs  
Go Terps : 10/18/2021 7:33 pm : link
Many of us have been saying the same for years.

Wake up, Mara.
RE: Duggan dropping truth bombs  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 7:35 pm : link
In comment 15420357 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Many of us have been saying the same for years.

Wake up, Mara.


GT, if this doesn't wake him up & realize big changes need to be made...well, I fear we're fucked for a long, long time.
Great article  
Bear vs Shark : 10/18/2021 7:35 pm : link
spot on
RE: Duggan dropping truth bombs  
Mike from SI : 10/18/2021 7:36 pm : link
In comment 15420357 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Many of us have been saying the same for years.

Wake up, Mara.


Especially the stretching to put a positive spin on things. When we called that out (you especially) we were told we're not real fans. Huh.
I Dare Say That Some BBI Posters...  
Jim in Tampa : 10/18/2021 7:37 pm : link
have also mastered the art of self-delusion.
Biggest issue to me  
UberAlias : 10/18/2021 7:38 pm : link
Is that they can’t seem to recognize where the issues are coming from. Is it weak coordinators or the the head coach GM or both? They have gotten rid of Head Coaches but failed to fire GM when the issues are clear.
They have the fans trained well too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2021 7:41 pm : link
"
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win."
RE: They have the fans trained well too  
Mike from SI : 10/18/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15420373 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
"
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win."


No no no. A lot of us saw through the bull****. It was just fans like GettleDogMan.
and many on this board  
Producer : 10/18/2021 7:43 pm : link
share in the delusion.
RE: RE: They have the fans trained well too  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2021 7:46 pm : link
In comment 15420376 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
In comment 15420373 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


"
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win."



No no no. A lot of us saw through the bull****. It was just fans like GettleDogMan.


Every year we have the argument of draft position vs wins. It's not just the weird users. No matter how terrible the team has been for 10 years people still really, really care about meaningless end of season games as proof of a growing culture.
RE: RE: RE: They have the fans trained well too  
Mike from SI : 10/18/2021 7:49 pm : link
In comment 15420382 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15420376 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


In comment 15420373 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


"
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win."



No no no. A lot of us saw through the bull****. It was just fans like GettleDogMan.



Every year we have the argument of draft position vs wins. It's not just the weird users. No matter how terrible the team has been for 10 years people still really, really care about meaningless end of season games as proof of a growing culture.


That's true. Maybe I just tune it out. The other interesting thing is there is probably data that show (either way) whether late season wins yield momentum or growth or whatever. It's not some un-answerable mystery. Probably just need the right regression.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 7:49 pm : link
We had BBI posters today talking about how the Giants have 4 Super Bowl titles to the Cards 0. As if that somehow matters on 10/18/21? No one is arguing where we rank up there in terms of historical success compared to other teams, this time to the Cards. But a lot of us are fucking sick & tired of our fucking season being over before fucking Halloween. And fucking seeing the fucking Cards-who were worse than us in 2018-6-0 while we're 1-5 & listening to fucking posters saying, 'Well, a rebuild takes time.' GTFO with that shit.

Sorry for the cursing, but I'm fed the fuck up, Haha.
RE: RE: They have the fans trained well too  
santacruzom : 10/18/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15420376 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
In comment 15420373 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


"
No franchise puts more stock in winning meaningless December games. The Giants went 1-3 and were outscored 92-49 in their final four games last season, yet there was Gettleman after the season crowing about how the team had made progress in learning how to win."



No no no. A lot of us saw through the bull****. It was just fans like GettleDogMan.


And it'll happen again. I am fairly sure that we'll win a game or two we're not supposed to win this year against a quality opponent, and somehow that win will offset 5 losses in their mind and will represent progress, or an ability to play with anyone so long as we're not unlucky, or some bullshit like that.
RE: Can we get all of that  
sec308 : 10/18/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15420349 Koffman said:
Quote:
on a banner ?

you might be on to something. Maybe we should all put in and hire a plane with a banner.
RE: RE: Can we get all of that  
Mike from SI : 10/18/2021 7:53 pm : link
In comment 15420391 sec308 said:
Quote:
In comment 15420349 Koffman said:


Quote:


on a banner ?


you might be on to something. Maybe we should all put in and hire a plane with a banner.


There are definitely enough pissed off people on this site with spare change that we can do a banner or billboard. Someone trustworthy just needs to organize it.
Giants fans have mastered self delusion too  
The Jake : 10/18/2021 7:55 pm : link
Only a Giants fan could suffer through 10+ years of mediocre to poor QB play, watch all the best teams in the league distance themselves from the pack by getting elite QBs, and then convince himself that this team could win with Daniel Jones if only our GM and coach could act more like Bill Belichick, a guy who hasn’t coached here in 30 years.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 7:57 pm : link
I don't know about our fans being 'self deluded'. If BBI is a representation of the fan base @ large, I think most of us fans are fed the fuck up & realize how broke this franchise is. Hell, Mara was booed during Eli's Giants Ring of Honor induction/didn't even come out yesterday during the 2011 Super Bowl championship ceremony.
you got people on here  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:07 pm : link
who want to ride or die with Jones. It's completely stupid. It's so obvious he can't play. We are a laughingstock. Non-Giant fans think the team is an irrelevant joke.
RE: you got people on here  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 8:08 pm : link
In comment 15420408 Producer said:
Quote:
who want to ride or die with Jones. It's completely stupid. It's so obvious he can't play. We are a laughingstock. Non-Giant fans think the team is an irrelevant joke.


& I'd argue those BBIers are a very small minority.
RE: RE: you got people on here  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15420409 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15420408 Producer said:


Quote:


who want to ride or die with Jones. It's completely stupid. It's so obvious he can't play. We are a laughingstock. Non-Giant fans think the team is an irrelevant joke.



& I'd argue those BBIers are a very small minority.


I sure hope so. I think this it is crazy that we have a QB that is playing like a back-up and some people don't see it.
RE: I Dare Say That Some BBI Posters...  
81_Great_Dane : 10/18/2021 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15420364 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
have also mastered the art of self-delusion.
My general attitude is: Ok, let's see if it works. McAdoo didn't work. Shurmur didn't work. Gettleman isn't working. Judge isn't working. The roster isn't working. Nothing is working.

Having given them lots of chances to see if it works, I'm at the point where I don't need to see any more. This ownership and upper management have proven that THEY don't work. Same problems year after year, nothing gets fixed.

DG is just a symptom. This is very deep rot.
He’s 100% dead-on, but the self-delusion predates Gettleman  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/18/2021 8:10 pm : link
I posted this on another thread:

2013: 7-9 “but we finished 7-3!”
2014: 6-10 “but we finished 3-1”
2015: 6-19 “but Eli played great, and McAdoo will fix everything”
2017: 3-13 “but Eli just needs a running game, did you see how good they looked running the ball against the Redskins in the last game of the season!”

It’s systemic. No one in that building wants to face hard truths. Or they’re afraid to speak truthfully.

Thinking Eli could win in 2018 was bad  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:13 pm : link
if they don't realize Jones stinks now, that's going to be a lot worse.
RE: you got people on here  
BigBlueShock : 10/18/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15420408 Producer said:
Quote:
who want to ride or die with Jones. It's completely stupid. It's so obvious he can't play. We are a laughingstock. Non-Giant fans think the team is an irrelevant joke.

Do you have any examples of those people “riding or dying” with Daniel Jones? Or are you just making shit up again?
RE: He’s 100% dead-on, but the self-delusion predates Gettleman  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 8:14 pm : link
In comment 15420412 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
I posted this on another thread:

2013: 7-9 “but we finished 7-3!”
2014: 6-10 “but we finished 3-1”
2015: 6-19 “but Eli played great, and McAdoo will fix everything”
2017: 3-13 “but Eli just needs a running game, did you see how good they looked running the ball against the Redskins in the last game of the season!”

It’s systemic. No one in that building wants to face hard truths. Or they’re afraid to speak truthfully.


We played 25 games in '15? Haha.

No, but I get what you're saying. Mara needs to stop this façade of pretending how we finish one year is going to translate into the next year. This isn't the '80s. There's so much turnover.
RE: RE: you got people on here  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:15 pm : link
In comment 15420416 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15420408 Producer said:


Quote:


who want to ride or die with Jones. It's completely stupid. It's so obvious he can't play. We are a laughingstock. Non-Giant fans think the team is an irrelevant joke.


Do you have any examples of those people “riding or dying” with Daniel Jones? Or are you just making shit up again?


If you read the board you will see them. They still have doubts. Many posters on here.

Are you able to converse without being such an asshole?
My son lost his shit when they hired Gettleman  
Paulie Walnuts : 10/18/2021 8:16 pm : link
And he wasn't wrong
RE: My son lost his shit when they hired Gettleman  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:17 pm : link
In comment 15420420 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
And he wasn't wrong


The entire mentality of the team is in the stone age.
Duggan refers to a  
chick310 : 10/18/2021 8:17 pm : link
Sounds like a guy that posts here on BBI, or maybe two.
We heard it here all off season.  
Section331 : 10/18/2021 8:19 pm : link
“We finished 5-3!” And no facts that 4 of those 5 wins came against awful teams with backup QB’s was going to convince them. The decision to spend so much money on such a bad team was ludicrous.
John Mara does not know what to do...  
EricJ : 10/18/2021 8:19 pm : link
he has no idea who to hire as the GM or coach.

I believe they put too much weight on things that are not of utmost importance.

For example, hiring a GM who knows the organization already. All that means is John Mara feels comfortable with the guy and not that he is the best candidate.

Danny Dimes - the connection to Eli and coach Cutcliff. The fact that he has a similar demeanor to Eli. All of that in my opinion played too much of a role when deciding which QB to draft.

Duggan refers to a 'perfect storm'.  
chick310 : 10/18/2021 8:20 pm : link

Sounds like a guy that posts here on BBI, or maybe two.
Yeah,but who is the next George Young  
ghost718 : 10/18/2021 8:21 pm : link
and if he did exist,would Goodell even let him in the league.

You look at the names on some of these lists that come out.Whether it be for coach or GM,and you could end up with someone who talks like a General Manager,but wouldn't know LT from a BLT.


RE: John Mara does not know what to do...  
Producer : 10/18/2021 8:21 pm : link
In comment 15420428 EricJ said:
Quote:
he has no idea who to hire as the GM or coach.

I believe they put too much weight on things that are not of utmost importance.

For example, hiring a GM who knows the organization already. All that means is John Mara feels comfortable with the guy and not that he is the best candidate.

Danny Dimes - the connection to Eli and coach Cutcliff. The fact that he has a similar demeanor to Eli. All of that in my opinion played too much of a role when deciding which QB to draft.


If this doesn't change in the next hire, we're in for ten more years of this.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/18/2021 8:24 pm : link
I might be delusional, but I think Mara will FINALLY get it this offseason. No in house promotions when DG is fired. For all his faults, he has a good pulse on the fan base. If he promotes from within, he's asking for a shitstorm.
RE: RE: John Mara does not know what to do...  
EricJ : 10/18/2021 8:35 pm : link
In comment 15420433 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15420428 EricJ said:


Quote:


he has no idea who to hire as the GM or coach.

I believe they put too much weight on things that are not of utmost importance.

For example, hiring a GM who knows the organization already. All that means is John Mara feels comfortable with the guy and not that he is the best candidate.

Danny Dimes - the connection to Eli and coach Cutcliff. The fact that he has a similar demeanor to Eli. All of that in my opinion played too much of a role when deciding which QB to draft.




If this doesn't change in the next hire, we're in for ten more years of this.


I actually thinkk it will never end until John Mara and the family just steps away from ANY decision making at all for this team.

The only thing John Mara can decide is what food he wants in his owner's box on Sunday. Outside of that.. he needs to stay clear of this team. Otherwise, it will be more than 10 years.
Well some of us call...  
bw in dc : 10/18/2021 8:38 pm : link
this "art of self-delusion" the "Giants Way".

But good for Duggan for re-packaging a lot of what is discussed on this board and giving it more light in The Athletic. Can't hurt.

Quote:
“There’s no defending the record,” Mara said. “We haven’t won enough games. Listen, we made some miscalculations in 2018, but in the past two years we’ve seen significant improvement. To break that up now, to bring someone new from the outside was not going to be beneficial for us. If our fans continue to stay patient with us, they’ll see a winning team soon.”

-- John Mara, January 2021, State of the Union



Thanks posting that quote bw  
cosmicj : 10/18/2021 8:45 pm : link
It’s illuminating.

Until the Broncos started to pull away week 1, I think the entire Giants leadership was convinced the team was emerging as a contender. I don’t know why they thought that, but they did. All the actions taken point to that being the consensus.

The last few weeks have to have been a shock to them.
RE: Well some of us call...  
Scooter185 : 10/18/2021 8:47 pm : link
In comment 15420458 bw in dc said:
Quote:
this "art of self-delusion" the "Giants Way".

But good for Duggan for re-packaging a lot of what is discussed on this board and giving it more light in The Athletic. Can't hurt.



Quote:


“There’s no defending the record,” Mara said. “We haven’t won enough games. Listen, we made some miscalculations in 2018, but in the past two years we’ve seen significant improvement. To break that up now, to bring someone new from the outside was not going to be beneficial for us. If our fans continue to stay patient with us, they’ll see a winning team soon.”

-- John Mara, January 2021, State of the Union





Was that soon in normal time or geologic?
RE: ...  
MickeyRibs : 10/18/2021 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15420442 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I might be delusional, but I think Mara will FINALLY get it this offseason. No in house promotions when DG is fired. For all his faults, he has a good pulse on the fan base. If he promotes from within, he's asking for a shitstorm.


And then you read quotes like this from Ralph V, and you really REALLY worry: "But the bigger question is whether Mara will go outside the organization for the first time since the NFL forced George Young on the Mara family back in 1979 -- something, by the way that he absolutely, positively doesn't want to do."

This organization is so screwed up.
WTF does Duggan know anyway?!  
trueblueinpw : 10/18/2021 8:52 pm : link
Half this team is injured and you guys think Jones is gonna be able to play winning football? What did Mahomes do when he was in the Super Bowl? (His second one. The one where all the other guys were injured and he got there anyway because he didn’t have a good line and no quarterback can win without a great offensive line). Huh? Right. I didn’t think so.

All Jones needs is a legit RT1 and two guards and a swing tackle who can pass block (there’s tons of those available late in the summer which is the perfect time to look for bargain O line) and a healthy Saquon and Kenny G and Toney and fire Garrett and promote Freddy Kitchens (a proven winner!) and let Joe Judge pick the new GM and get an edge in the draft (after we get a DT1 with our 1st pick) and we’re right back in the hunt.

Somebody tell Dan “know it all” Duggan and anyone else in lame stream sports media with their fancy paywalls and statistical numbers that this submarine doesn’t have any windows!
RE: WTF does Duggan know anyway?!  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2021 8:55 pm : link
In comment 15420502 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
Half this team is injured and you guys think Jones is gonna be able to play winning football? What did Mahomes do when he was in the Super Bowl? (His second one. The one where all the other guys were injured and he got there anyway because he didn’t have a good line and no quarterback can win without a great offensive line). Huh? Right. I didn’t think so.

All Jones needs is a legit RT1 and two guards and a swing tackle who can pass block (there’s tons of those available late in the summer which is the perfect time to look for bargain O line) and a healthy Saquon and Kenny G and Toney and fire Garrett and promote Freddy Kitchens (a proven winner!) and let Joe Judge pick the new GM and get an edge in the draft (after we get a DT1 with our 1st pick) and we’re right back in the hunt.

Somebody tell Dan “know it all” Duggan and anyone else in lame stream sports media with their fancy paywalls and statistical numbers that this submarine doesn’t have any windows!


Lmao
Trueblue  
cosmicj : 10/18/2021 8:56 pm : link
Lol
RE: WTF does Duggan know anyway?!  
Scooter185 : 10/18/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15420502 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
Half this team is injured and you guys think Jones is gonna be able to play winning football? What did Mahomes do when he was in the Super Bowl? (His second one. The one where all the other guys were injured and he got there anyway because he didn’t have a good line and no quarterback can win without a great offensive line). Huh? Right. I didn’t think so.

All Jones needs is a legit RT1 and two guards and a swing tackle who can pass block (there’s tons of those available late in the summer which is the perfect time to look for bargain O line) and a healthy Saquon and Kenny G and Toney and fire Garrett and promote Freddy Kitchens (a proven winner!) and let Joe Judge pick the new GM and get an edge in the draft (after we get a DT1 with our 1st pick) and we’re right back in the hunt.

Somebody tell Dan “know it all” Duggan and anyone else in lame stream sports media with their fancy paywalls and statistical numbers that this submarine doesn’t have any windows!


Is this parody?
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